on ps4 at least...

as far as i know the big trading guilds cooridnate where there going to be and how much they are bidding anyway.

THIS IS WHY THIS IS GOOD FOR SMALL GUILDS...

now, each small guild GM has the ability to gain some consistency in having at trader.


i repeat = THE BIG GUYS DON'T WANT OUR CRAPPY SPOTS...

this update should do nothing but push out ghost guilds because the big guilds have way more money than the ghost guilds and they have the insurance of 10 bids.

ALL BIG GUILDS = "oh we lost our spot, GOOD THING WE HAVE THIS 10 BID SYSTEM SO WE HAVE A GOOD BACK UP AND DON'T HAVE TO COME UP WITH GHOST GUILD EXTORTION!"

small guilds = "oh i lost my crappy spot for 500k, good thing we bid 50k on these other spots and we got an emergency spot!" PHEW, thank zos for insurance!"

REALLy, you all and your "one change to the trading system that benefits everybody but ghost guilds and im going to scream the sky is falling!"

dudeS...its going to be ok! :-)

As a guild leader of a social guild that also likes to have a trader, I actually look forward to this change.

We will have to fund raise for the first week, so we can bid on the number of places we care about, but after that we will be able to just raise the funds needed for one trader. All the bids we lose come back to us.

We don't have the time or energy to make shadow guilds, so this should be a way for us to make sure we have a trader every week. With TTC the most important thing is to have a trader every week even if it is a "bad" one.

There will be some turmoil at first (especially the top tier spots), but I am not competing for those anyway.

I think people need to be more open minded about the advantages of this change and be flexible. It will actually work out better in the long run.

Sorcery wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

As a guild leader of a social guild that also likes to have a trader, I actually look forward to this change.

We will have to fund raise for the first week, so we can bid on the number of places we care about, but after that we will be able to just raise the funds needed for one trader. All the bids we lose come back to us.

We don't have the time or energy to make shadow guilds, so this should be a way for us to make sure we have a trader every week. With TTC the most important thing is to have a trader every week even if it is a "bad" one.

There will be some turmoil at first (especially the top tier spots), but I am not competing for those anyway.

I think people need to be more open minded about the advantages of this change and be flexible. It will actually work out better in the long run.

If guilds at the top lose, it has the potential to ripple down to the bottom. That means increased costs for everyone, more time you'll spend fundraising gold to bid weekly. We have yet to see how it'll turn out, but expect a lot of musical chairs.

I don't expect that much churn. Remember, nothing bad happens when every guild wins their bid. As the number of guilds miss their bid increases, then the multiple-bid scenario starts to kick in incrementally. Everything hinges on how often the guilds fail to win their bids. Only ZOS knows how often that happens each week. I've never seen a poll of the GMs to see what that might be, and ZOS probably ain't gonna tell us.

Also keep in mind that the ability to place 10 bids does not guarantee the guild will get a kiosk. The "domino effect" cascade stops as soon as a guild fails to bid high enough to disrupt those backup locations.

Maybe someone underestimates the amount of trolls in this game. People with empty guilds and too much gold covering hubs. I clearly see this coming.

lordrichter wrote: »

I don't expect that much churn. Remember, nothing bad happens when every guild wins their bid. As the number of guilds miss their bid increases, then the multiple-bid scenario starts to kick in incrementally. Everything hinges on how often the guilds fail to win their bids. Only ZOS knows how often that happens each week. I've never seen a poll of the GMs to see what that might be, and ZOS probably ain't gonna tell us.

Also keep in mind that the ability to place 10 bids does not guarantee the guild will get a kiosk. The "domino effect" cascade stops as soon as a guild fails to bid high enough to disrupt those backup locations.

Ok. so lets think of its simply in terms or tiers and bids.

Tier A bid 4 -15m
Tier B bid 3 - 10m
Tier C bid 2 - 5 m
Tier D bid 1-3 m
Tier E bid up to 1m

Current system

If I am tier A I know that at some point when someone is attacking my regular spot I have to go up to 15m. Mostly this doesnt happen. Every now and then I can go 4m or even lower, because no-one attacks me. Currently there are only 2-3 guilds on my server that move around so the chances I get hit are mostly low. I have built up massive gold reserves. Every week me and my buddies also secure a Tier C ghost spot for 3m just in case I lose.

The same applies to Tier B and C

New system

I am Tier A. I have bid 6m. Oh no I got hit. But thats ok because I bid on a tier B with 5m. I better up my bid next week because the chances I will get hit has just gone up massively. I dont usually bid against other people because I dont have to. Now I may as well put in 10 backup bids of 5m in tier B. I will also bid on 10 tier C spots with my ghost guild as one of those suckers will fail.

I am tier B. I have bid 4m. Oh no I just lost to a 5m bid from those guys from the tier A zone. But its ok because I put a bid in at 3.5m in a Tier C zone. I better up my bid next week because the chance of getting hit are now massive.

I am tier C. Oh no I lost to those guys from Tier B. But its ok I put in a bid on tier D etc.etc.

I'm tier D. WTF I'm now losing on those 2m bids I used to put down. I dont have the funds. Bids have gone up everywhere.

also there is the potential for.

I am Tier A and I run a cool alliance of 10 guilds. I am the coolest trader in this game and I have access to 750 million in gold (no exaggeration). That other Tier A guy, who runs another alliance just took out one of the tier B guys in my alliance. This is war! I will show you guys. I'm going to bid 7m on all your tier B and C guys with some of my tier D friends because I can.

I'm tier C and some tier D guy just bid on me with 7m. where does he get the gold!!!

I am chaos. I hate those stinking alliances and those nooby guilds. I have botters and gold sellers in my guild. Heck I even buy gold and sell crowns. Some of my dudes are top traders we have a huge amount of gold. People report me to Zos but they dont care. I dont care if I bid 10m and only make 3m in sales tax. I am all about the chaos dudes. At the moment I bid 10m on one of the tier A or B guys because I am chaos, fear me. But now I can bid loads of gold across 10 spots. Thank you Zos you just made my spam bidding with illegal gold even easier. Muhaha suckers!

and so on.

Mate this is going to be a chaos ball!

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I don't expect that much churn. Remember, nothing bad happens when every guild wins their bid. As the number of guilds miss their bid increases, then the multiple-bid scenario starts to kick in incrementally. Everything hinges on how often the guilds fail to win their bids. Only ZOS knows how often that happens each week. I've never seen a poll of the GMs to see what that might be, and ZOS probably ain't gonna tell us.

Also keep in mind that the ability to place 10 bids does not guarantee the guild will get a kiosk. The "domino effect" cascade stops as soon as a guild fails to bid high enough to disrupt those backup locations.

Ok. so lets think of its simply in terms or tiers and bids.

Tier A bid 4 -15m
Tier B bid 3 - 10m
Tier C bid 2 - 5 m
Tier D bid 1-3 m
Tier E bid up to 1m

Current system

If I am tier A I know that at some point when someone is attacking my regular spot I have to go up to 15m. Mostly this doesnt happen. Every now and then I can go 4m or even lower, because no-one attacks me. Currently there are only 2-3 guilds on my server that move around so the chances I get hit are mostly low. I have built up massive gold reserves. Every week me and my buddies also secure a Tier C ghost spot for 3m just in case I lose.

The same applies to Tier B and C

New system

I am Tier A. I have bid 6m. Oh no I got hit. But thats ok because I bid on a tier B with 5m. I better up my bid next week because the chances I will get hit has just gone up massively. I dont usually bid against other people because I dont have to. Now I may as well put in 10 backup bids of 5m in tier B. I will also bid on 10 tier C spots with my ghost guild as one of those suckers will fail.

I am tier B. I have bid 4m. Oh no I just lost to a 5m bid from those guys from the tier A zone. But its ok because I put a bid in at 3.5m in a Tier C zone. I better up my bid next week because the chance of getting hit are now massive.

I am tier C. Oh no I lost to those guys from Tier B. But its ok I put in a bid on tier D etc.etc.

I'm tier D. WTF I'm now losing on those 2m bids I used to put down. I dont have the funds. Bids have gone up everywhere.

also there is the potential for.

I am Tier A and I run a cool alliance of 10 guilds. I am the coolest trader in this game and I have access to 750 million in gold (no exaggeration). That other Tier A guy, who runs another alliance just took out one of the tier B guys in my alliance. This is war! I will show you guys. I'm going to bid 7m on all your tier B and C guys with some of my tier D friends because I can.

I'm tier C and some tier D guy just bid on me with 7m. where does he get the gold!!!

I am chaos. I hate those stinking alliances and those nooby guilds. I have botters and gold sellers in my guild. Heck I even buy gold and sell crowns. Some of my dudes are top traders we have a huge amount of gold. People report me to Zos but they dont care. I dont care if I bid 10m and only make 3m in sales tax. I am all about the chaos dudes. At the moment I bid 10m on one of the tier A or B guys because I am chaos, fear me. But now I can bid loads of gold across 10 spots. Thank you Zos you just made my spam bidding with illegal gold even easier. Muhaha suckers!

and so on.

Mate this is going to be a chaos ball!

Amen.

A lot of people dont see this scenario you described because they haven't experienced bidding for and running a sizable trading guild high enough in the pecking order. Some have not been doing it long enough to experience the scummy side and never been chest deep in the going-ons in and around, and what's going on behind the curtain in the trading side of the game. How the wheels and cogs moving. How one thing will trigger another, with long term consequences and affect at least 500 people at a time. That things are not so straight forward. How some people will do something that makes no sense whatsoever just so they can f*ck with you or a group of people. There are a lot of sadistic sociopaths playing this game. You will find their kind in pvp, some in pve and some in trading. Same sh*t, just different aspect of the game.

It will be a cowboy town. Open season. Unless your guild (or GM) is ultra rich, you and your guild will suffer instability constantly and nothing kills a trading guild faster than instability.

generalmyrick wrote: »

on ps4 at least...

as far as i know the big trading guilds cooridnate where there going to be and how much they are bidding anyway.

THIS IS WHY THIS IS GOOD FOR SMALL GUILDS...

now, each small guild GM has the ability to gain some consistency in having at trader.


i repeat = THE BIG GUYS DON'T WANT OUR CRAPPY SPOTS...

this update should do nothing but push out ghost guilds because the big guilds have way more money than the ghost guilds and they have the insurance of 10 bids.

ALL BIG GUILDS = "oh we lost our spot, GOOD THING WE HAVE THIS 10 BID SYSTEM SO WE HAVE A GOOD BACK UP AND DON'T HAVE TO COME UP WITH GHOST GUILD EXTORTION!"

small guilds = "oh i lost my crappy spot for 500k, good thing we bid 50k on these other spots and we got an emergency spot!" PHEW, thank zos for insurance!"

REALLy, you all and your "one change to the trading system that benefits everybody but ghost guilds and im going to scream the sky is falling!"

dudeS...its going to be ok! :-)

I must also respectfully disagree. The big guilds, heck, basically any guild, will take any spot when they lose their bids in their primary spots. This will effect everyone in the end. There aren't even close to enough spots to go around. Then when you add the fake guilds to the equation, there are even less. So, when my guilds get pushed out of better spots, we'll be gunning for any and all crappy spots with big money. Good luck mate, and cheers.

lordrichter wrote: »

1. All of this only happens when there is a disruption.

You don't think every guild having the ability to bid 10 spots; topped with the very real inequality in gold resources; combined with the unpredictability of individuals wont cause disruption?

lordrichter wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

1. All of this only happens when there is a disruption.

You don't think every guild having the ability to bid 10 spots; topped with the very real inequality in gold resources; combined with the unpredictability of individuals wont cause disruption?

Guilds are not bidding on 10 locations to get 10 locations, they are bidding on 10 locations to get one.

You dont have any clue of what is going on in that bidding process. Not everyone is bidding to get one spot. some are just trolling, on some servers there are even people who just bid guilds to force them to bid higher, with 10 guilds you easily can blackmail guilds and force them to bid loss based over a long time. a lot of guilds do not even care if they bid based on their sales or actual income but loss based just for prestige. u give all the power to such trolls , endangering established guilds in every sales level. the only winners from that update are people who want to see the trading world burn, trolls, people who buy gold for bids and haters.

lordrichter wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

1. All of this only happens when there is a disruption.

You don't think every guild having the ability to bid 10 spots; topped with the very real inequality in gold resources; combined with the unpredictability of individuals wont cause disruption?

Guilds are not bidding on 10 locations to get 10 locations, they are bidding on 10 locations to get one.

You dont have any clue of what is going on in that bidding process. Not everyone is bidding to get one spot. some are just trolling, on some servers there are even people who just bid guilds to force them to bid higher, with 10 guilds you easily can blackmail guilds and force them to bid loss based over a long time. a lot of guilds do not even care if they bid based on their sales or actual income but loss based just for prestige. u give all the power to such trolls , endangering established guilds in every sales level. the only winners from that update are people who want to see the trading world burn, trolls, people who buy gold for bids and haters.

I don't see the problem here being that people can bid on multiple kiosks. I think that is a very good idea, and one that should have been in the game from the start. What is bad about this is that there is no risk for doing so.

how can u not see a risk, if people are getting the power, to interrupt legit working trading guild just for the troll fun or out of hatred. before that they could max bid one guild, but now u can bid full hubs and interrupt the economic way a guild works and crush/damage them with that while not even having competetive interests as a legit trading guild. a thread next console trolls are already pointing out that this will be a fun time from u23 on, also on the other discords i recognized only the trolls are happy, but not the legit working guilds.

lordrichter wrote: »

I do see a potential problem in that there is no penalty for a large, rich, trading guild to make massive bids on secondary locations. They get all of the gold back, so they can divert all available cash to bids with no risk. I'd like to see something that makes them stop and consider the size of the bids, and how many they place, before they commit all of their gold reserves to bids. My suggestion is a non-refundable component to unused bids, but there might be other ways to handle this.

If you are not a "fat cat" guild then it is going to be detrimental as the limited gold supply dwindles trying to place the ten bids just to get a spot. The large coalition guilds have the gold reserves to shrug off a non-refundable, less it's priced so high to make a dent to them then you totally removed smaller guilds than them.

Coalition guilds are gonna be bidding on their 10 spots for each guild they run, plus no reason no to put in 10 bids for a ghost just in case. Before they ran a chance of not having each guild get a spot as they try to spread out in different zones. This is gonna give them the advantage to win all spots by virtue of having the gold, and they will gain even more gold to fuel more sister guilds.

If ZOS is doing this to level the field and have more trader turn over, it' will have the opposite effect.
You could sort of do it by having a set non-refundable price on a lottery for each trader. Classify the traders into three tiers, High - medium- low priced. You can buy 10 chances but only within one tier. Traders only gotten by lottery, no more disband and allow another to buy the trader.
This is complicated, would be a nightmare to program & maintain, has the potential to remove a lot of gold each week and everyone will hate it for the RNG factor. Which means ZOS would probably do it.

lordrichter wrote: »

Grimm13 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I do see a potential problem in that there is no penalty for a large, rich, trading guild to make massive bids on secondary locations. They get all of the gold back, so they can divert all available cash to bids with no risk. I'd like to see something that makes them stop and consider the size of the bids, and how many they place, before they commit all of their gold reserves to bids. My suggestion is a non-refundable component to unused bids, but there might be other ways to handle this.

If you are not a "fat cat" guild then it is going to be detrimental as the limited gold supply dwindles trying to place the ten bids just to get a spot. The large coalition guilds have the gold reserves to shrug off a non-refundable, less it's priced so high to make a dent to them then you totally removed smaller guilds than them.

Yup. That is the down side to adding risk to the venture, but as I said, there may be other options that can be used for correction of bad actors in the system. The bad actors, themselves, are not necessarily completely bad, but if allowed to rule the system, they become that way.

Allowing multiple bids so that there can be a back up is a "good thing" and it would be a shame if this turned into one of those "this is why we can't have good things" due to a limited number of bad actors allowed to act without restraint. Some sort of system has to be in place to deal with them, from the start, and it can't be "ZOS chasing after them and banning them" sort of thing. That never happens. ZOS does not have the stamina to police the game like that.

I must partially. and respectfully disagree.

It can't be ZOS chasing after them, and banning them....? Really, why not? The exploiters get a warning to not exploit, if they continue to do so after the warning, they get banned. It can, definitely, be done. However, on the flip side, they could do something much more effective.They could get a patch ready, and get rid of the exploit. No one needs to get banned, legimate guilds have a better chance of getting vendors, and update 23 can introduce the changes without penalty to the players supporting their game.

As far as I see, there is nothing fun about bidding against fake guilds, who are just trolling, because they still can. I and many others can't, and won't support this change unless the fake guilds are eliminated. Cheers and good wishes.

WardenofNirn wrote: »

``With Update 23, you can have your Guild bid on up to 10 different Guild Trader locations each week. Priority is given to the location with the highest bid, and if you miss your first preference, the system checks your second, third, and so on. Once you win a bid on a Guild Trader, all other bids are refunded back to your Guild bank. With this addition, it is easier to ensure you get a Guild Trader location you like (as long as you have the gold to bid)!``

This will only help the biggest trading guilds out there to ensure a trader each week. What small or medium sized guild has tens or even hundreds of millions on their bank account, letting them bid on 10 locations at once?

Why did you implement this? To get rid of all bigger guilds backup traders in a nice way? @ZOS_GinaBruno

I suspect that troll annoying the big guilds in Rawl is the cause, at least partly. Gotta admit the timing is funny, right? I bet he/she/they didnt expect their actions leading to a much better system for trading guilds, especially large ones with the funds to bid on multiple traders.

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Not sure why people are pissed about this or why they don't think the change will help small guilds.

The effects should be:

1) Smaller guilds will rarely loose their spot to a big dog since the big dogs will no longer have to buy up secondary spots on weeks they don't loose their primary and they rarely loose their primary.

2) Overall trader costs will lower as there are now fewer total guilds bidding for a spot (this is because you just removed all those shadow guilds of the big dogs.) Simple supply and demand here.

3) Week to week prices for specific traders will become more consistent and possibly also lower because the severe negative effect of loosing your bid (no trader at all) has been removed. You will now likely still get a lesser trader. (A secondary effect of this will be that spying will offer less advantages than it previously did.)

4) Guilds trader locations will move more often because, with a less disastrous worst case scenario, guilds will take more chances on bids to save money and will also take more chances on improving their location. This should be really pronounced right after the change as guilds currently have little data on how much location effects their sales and at least some of them will be adventuresome enough to want to find out if a move up or down in location is more profitable.

5) I expect the competition between guilds to become more dynamic and involve less cartel behavior (ie. getting other guilds leaders banned right before the bid to prevent them from bidding). In effect, being able to explore multiple options for trader locations based on price should bring the market closer to free market ideals and decrease the benefits of anti-competitive behavior. It certainly greatly lowers the barriers to entry to start and especially to grow a trade guild.

In short, I think the changes will make things dramatically better for almost all players in the market and that they should completely solve the problem of shadow trade guilds.

Some advice to many of you who have posted.... Just put your investments in index funds IRL. The lack of basic understanding about how markets work in here is just staggering.

1) smaller guilds don't often lose to the big guilds now, because the big guilds are where they want to be. And they have no reason to stop buying other spots up with shadow guilds. It's safer and it eliminates competition. Especially when there secondary bids are probably going to be bid against by other rich guilds too. They will just move the shadow guilds down the chain.

2) It doesn't make sense to say all the guilds will have less competition when all the guilds can now place 10 bids at once. The guilds that can afford to so will do it. And the ones who can't will have to try to squeeze more gold out their members in increased dues and quotas and fundraising to try pay for a higher bid to protect their spot and to also be able to afford a decent back up spot. And as I said the shadow guilds aren't going anywhere.

3) There is no way the prices will be more consistent with so many guilds paying for multiple bids. In my experience having to accept a lower level spot that you still have to pay for and that you don't want to be in and that you guild members didn't join for is pretty much just as bad as losing the spot for a week.

4) What you are talking about is instability and uncertainty. It's not good for making profit it's only good for those trying to move up the ladder. The guilds that are in the middle that have worked hard for a long time to establish themselves in a location they are happy with without making the huge profits of other guilds will be the ones that are screwed over.

5) I am not sure what Cartel problems you think are going to change because of this change. What ever guilds are working with each other will continue to do so. But for those that are not aligned there is probably going to be more shenanigans, because while it will encourage competition many don't like to compete fairly they just want to win.

You think you know markets really well. And you are probably pretty versed, but I don't think you know the ins and outs of what it is to be in the trade guild game of ESO. A guild with 2 shadows guilds can bid on 30 trader spots. This is very very dangerous. It's not going to be a good thing.

It's only a factor for the first bid though. Only one bid can win, and then it erases their 9 other bids. So, for example, Guild A could bid 10M on one trader, and 9M on a second trader. Guild B could bid 1 gold on the second trader. If Guild A wins their 10M bid on the first trader, Guild B will win their 1 gold bid on the second trader because the 9M bid is wiped away as if it was never cast. (Of course I realize a 1 gold bid is absurd, and also that there will be other competition for a trader. But the point stills stands, the 2nd-10th bid by Guild A is meaningless if they win their 1st bid.)

I understand how it works. That Is not the point. The point is, that if one week a guild in rawlkha loses it's first bid, it's going to start a chain reaction that trickles all the way down the chain. Or if it happens in Vivec or Wayrest... same thing. the smaller guys will get shoved out because someone above them on the ladder lost and many guilds will be out of a spot at best in some other lesser spot they don't really want to be in. Now imagine that guy who out bid all the guilds in Rawlkha a month or so ago strikes again? You know who will still have the best locations, those 6 guilds that just got shoved out because they are real trading guilds and they just move down to the next rung for a week knocking out the guilds that were there, who knock out the guilds below them and so on. Unless the spot was taken buy a shadow guild who also have 10 bids each now.

So again this changes nothing really. Those six guilds all found traders and six smaller guilds were denied a trader without the change. The change means trading guilds that lose a bid will not have to scramble to find an open trader. Other than that this doesn't change much.

MandyMae wrote: »

This thread is very intriguing. I'm most curious about who are these people spending so much gold just to grieve guilds? If its their gold they are spending then who got trolled? Seems the new system would work in the grieved favor as they spend gold to take your spot but wait, you have 9 other spots to back you up so unless you tell them your 10 bids, how can they grieve you?

if ure having to to go for a hub with lower sales then it is. its not like all hubs are worth same to the traders.