Anti_Virus wrote: »Dude your 'refutation' post was a case study on whataboutism by over generalizing his point and naming THREE unrelated game mechanics to the thread.Toc de Malsvi wrote: »killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »max ranged cc should not be part of a pvp game. Nothing more to say. If you disagree its cause you crutch on it, because you cant do better. Now lets see by the responses who needs a crutch in pvp.
Executes should not be part of a pvp game. Nothing more to say. If you disagree its cause you crutch on it, because you cant do better. Now lets see by the responses who needs a crutch in pvp.
Roots should not be part of a pvp game. Nothing more to say. If you disagree its cause you crutch on it, because you cant do better. Now lets see by the responses who needs a crutch in pvp.
Smart healing should not be part of a pvp game. Nothing more to say. If you disagree its cause you crutch on it, because you cant do better. Now lets see by the responses who needs a crutch in pvp.
Anything can be placed in that slot because your statement is ignorant and foolish. Further Snipe has a longer range than any of those CC's so none of those CC's are "max range".
First of all, thanks for proving my point. Now we know where we stand. Ill try to treat you in a respectful manner nevertheless, so to answer your points; Executes. Whithout executes game would be even worse than where we are now with the HA meta. Next; Roots; Roots should have a diminishing returns. Im close to agreeing with you. Smart healing; Healing in CP campaign is way too overtuned and should indeed be tuned a lot down. So we agree on some things, but lets stick to what THIS topic is about; ranged CC. Btw, whataboutism is the foe of the free world.
It isn't a whataboutism, your statement was myopic. Your statement was essentially:
"I'm right your wrong, if you think I'm wrong its cause you are bad, end of story."
That's not an argument, thats not rational or reason. That is the statement of a child who is upset the world isn't going their way.
You also just did what you accused him of doing.
He responded to each point and you responded saying "hurr durr your short-sighted words show the intellect of a child". Trying to avoid the ad hominem charge by calling his words "myopic and petulant" (pretty much what you said, mister)?
Sit down black kettle. Or better yet, provide a counter argument.
This tends to be the majority posts on the forums instead of analyzing someones arguments instead you get "L2P/GitGud"
Well, if someone is basing their “arguments” on a failure of understanding how to win a PvP encounter, then yeah. L2P is the correct response.
An ability that stuns from 41 meters away will stun for the same amount of time even if it were cast from 4 meters away.
Congratulations on unlocking some basic game knowledge.
xylena_lazarow wrote: »As previously stated I'd have no problem with max range stuns if it were cripplingly expensive to spam them. The people here defending spamming range stuns are just knee-jerking to the thought of it being harder for them to zerg solos from complete safety. If your first five Draining Shots or Fire Reaches get countered, you should be out of resources, not spamming another 17 of them until a target you're afraid to personally engage is stunned and zerged down.
xylena_lazarow wrote: »As previously stated I'd have no problem with max range stuns if it were cripplingly expensive to spam them. The people here defending spamming range stuns are just knee-jerking to the thought of it being harder for them to zerg solos from complete safety. If your first five Draining Shots or Fire Reaches get countered, you should be out of resources, not spamming another 17 of them until a target you're afraid to personally engage is stunned and zerged down.
dont know how long u played this game, but it doesnt make sense to "spam" long ranged Cc. u have a Cc immunity after the first one. and between these skills maybe use some healing and engage?
the first 100 hours in pvp can be very frustrating, but u have to adapt and learn, or u will always be the lamb.
leepalmer95 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »As previously stated I'd have no problem with max range stuns if it were cripplingly expensive to spam them. The people here defending spamming range stuns are just knee-jerking to the thought of it being harder for them to zerg solos from complete safety. If your first five Draining Shots or Fire Reaches get countered, you should be out of resources, not spamming another 17 of them until a target you're afraid to personally engage is stunned and zerged down.
dont know how long u played this game, but it doesnt make sense to "spam" long ranged Cc. u have a Cc immunity after the first one. and between these skills maybe use some healing and engage?
the first 100 hours in pvp can be very frustrating, but u have to adapt and learn, or u will always be the lamb.
They spam it because the long range cc's are their spamable. Which basically means you get cc'd on cooldown always.
Range has always had a advantage in pvp, the only disadvantage was reflects which have all basically been removed.
Now if people are going to sit there and say there is no advantage from being a ranged caster vs being a melee character then I don't know what to say apart from kindly leave the thread.
leepalmer95 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »As previously stated I'd have no problem with max range stuns if it were cripplingly expensive to spam them. The people here defending spamming range stuns are just knee-jerking to the thought of it being harder for them to zerg solos from complete safety. If your first five Draining Shots or Fire Reaches get countered, you should be out of resources, not spamming another 17 of them until a target you're afraid to personally engage is stunned and zerged down.
dont know how long u played this game, but it doesnt make sense to "spam" long ranged Cc. u have a Cc immunity after the first one. and between these skills maybe use some healing and engage?
the first 100 hours in pvp can be very frustrating, but u have to adapt and learn, or u will always be the lamb.
They spam it because the long range cc's are their spamable. Which basically means you get cc'd on cooldown always.
Range has always had a advantage in pvp, the only disadvantage was reflects which have all basically been removed.
Now if people are going to sit there and say there is no advantage from being a ranged caster vs being a melee character then I don't know what to say apart from kindly leave the thread.
dont know how long u played this game, but it doesnt make sense to "spam" long ranged Cc. u have a Cc immunity after the first one. and between these skills maybe use some healing and engage?
the first 100 hours in pvp can be very frustrating, but u have to adapt and learn, or u will always be the lamb.
xylena_lazarow wrote: »dont know how long u played this game, but it doesnt make sense to "spam" long ranged Cc. u have a Cc immunity after the first one. and between these skills maybe use some healing and engage?
the first 100 hours in pvp can be very frustrating, but u have to adapt and learn, or u will always be the lamb.
People spam 41m stuns on me because I am able to counter most of them, while also dealing with any number of closer range players chasing me. The players spamming ranged stuns on me have zero intent on directly engaging me, and are typically on walls or behind their allies, taking zero risk. They can't kill me themselves, but don't need to, as their only goal is to prevent me from disengaging from the zerg.
I'm not asking to win 1vX, I'm asking for risk to match reward. Keep parroting "L2P noob" though, it makes it very obvious who here only gets a "kill" by spamming zero-risk ranged stuns on solos already being zerged.
Part of the reason why mag sorc is so stupidly strong is the fact that it can cast ALL of its main burst skills from max range. Including the stun. So I agree something should be done. What though? I dunno.
DocFrost72 wrote: »So how do we fix it?
xylena_lazarow wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »So how do we fix it?
One option would be for max range stuns to be prohibitively expensive to spam-
The other option would be to return ranged stuns to the 20-25m range they had at launch, forcing people wielding them to risk actual PvP engagement, perhaps even requiring them to stop spamming their stun and use a gap closer or speed ability to get into stun range.
xylena_lazarow wrote: »@DocFrost72 can you give a better suggestion then?
xylena_lazarow wrote: »dont know how long u played this game, but it doesnt make sense to "spam" long ranged Cc. u have a Cc immunity after the first one. and between these skills maybe use some healing and engage?
the first 100 hours in pvp can be very frustrating, but u have to adapt and learn, or u will always be the lamb.
People spam 41m stuns on me because I am able to counter most of them, while also dealing with any number of closer range players chasing me. The players spamming ranged stuns on me have zero intent on directly engaging me, and are typically on walls or behind their allies, taking zero risk. They can't kill me themselves, but don't need to, as their only goal is to prevent me from disengaging from the zerg.
I'm not asking to win 1vX, I'm asking for risk to match reward. Keep parroting "L2P noob" though, it makes it very obvious who here only gets a "kill" by spamming zero-risk ranged stuns on solos already being zerged.
killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »All cc abilities ought to come with a hefty diminishing return. If you get cc's with the same ability 10 times (from 10 different players, or the same doesnt matter) the first one and the tenth one should NOT have the same effect. Let the first one hit, then force the player to use the brain and either use another cc, a snare or any other ability. Yes you get a short cc immunity if you dodge (cost stamina) or break free (same) from the cc, but it doesnt matter if youre being constantly cc'd. You CANT break free 10 times, but why should you have to? The tenth time shouldnt affect you at all, as long as you are in combat.
killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »All cc abilities ought to come with a hefty diminishing return. If you get cc's with the same ability 10 times (from 10 different players, or the same doesnt matter) the first one and the tenth one should NOT have the same effect. Let the first one hit, then force the player to use the brain and either use another cc, a snare or any other ability. Yes you get a short cc immunity if you dodge (cost stamina) or break free (same) from the cc, but it doesnt matter if youre being constantly cc'd. You CANT break free 10 times, but why should you have to? The tenth time shouldnt affect you at all, as long as you are in combat.
Whether they attack you with 5 or 10 CCs, there is still a period of immunity. So no, you cannot be continuously CCd and continuous CCs do not have the same effects if they can't always CC you. If it is such a problem, maybe attack them during your CC immunity, or do any number of defensive actions available to you during that time.
killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »All cc abilities ought to come with a hefty diminishing return. If you get cc's with the same ability 10 times (from 10 different players, or the same doesnt matter) the first one and the tenth one should NOT have the same effect. Let the first one hit, then force the player to use the brain and either use another cc, a snare or any other ability. Yes you get a short cc immunity if you dodge (cost stamina) or break free (same) from the cc, but it doesnt matter if youre being constantly cc'd. You CANT break free 10 times, but why should you have to? The tenth time shouldnt affect you at all, as long as you are in combat.
Whether they attack you with 5 or 10 CCs, there is still a period of immunity. So no, you cannot be continuously CCd and continuous CCs do not have the same effects if they can't always CC you. If it is such a problem, maybe attack them during your CC immunity, or do any number of defensive actions available to you during that time.
Wheres the problem with a diminishing returns? You can break free or dodge then youll have a short cc immunity period, but IF youve ever fought against more than yourself or your group you know you will be cc'd again, most likely by the same 2-3 abilities immediately after your cc immunity period is over. If there was a diminishing return on cc skills, it would be far more rewarding to try to chase the ranged cc spammers instead of turtling up, use Heavy Armour and run for the closest LoS shelter, creating the stale meta we have now. You cant catch ranged cc groups so youll have to survive the burst which will come after the CC and find shelter.With a diminishing return on CC, more players would use different gear, medium armour would be more viable and different skill/playstyles would be viable again. Instead we now have two archetypes; the ranged cc spammers and the turtles with sword and board blocking them. This again is part of the big lag problems you find in CP campaigns, where abilities will be spammed endlessly
killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »All cc abilities ought to come with a hefty diminishing return. If you get cc's with the same ability 10 times (from 10 different players, or the same doesnt matter) the first one and the tenth one should NOT have the same effect. Let the first one hit, then force the player to use the brain and either use another cc, a snare or any other ability. Yes you get a short cc immunity if you dodge (cost stamina) or break free (same) from the cc, but it doesnt matter if youre being constantly cc'd. You CANT break free 10 times, but why should you have to? The tenth time shouldnt affect you at all, as long as you are in combat.
Whether they attack you with 5 or 10 CCs, there is still a period of immunity. So no, you cannot be continuously CCd and continuous CCs do not have the same effects if they can't always CC you. If it is such a problem, maybe attack them during your CC immunity, or do any number of defensive actions available to you during that time.
Wheres the problem with a diminishing returns? You can break free or dodge then youll have a short cc immunity period, but IF youve ever fought against more than yourself or your group you know you will be cc'd again, most likely by the same 2-3 abilities immediately after your cc immunity period is over. If there was a diminishing return on cc skills, it would be far more rewarding to try to chase the ranged cc spammers instead of turtling up, use Heavy Armour and run for the closest LoS shelter, creating the stale meta we have now. You cant catch ranged cc groups so youll have to survive the burst which will come after the CC and find shelter.With a diminishing return on CC, more players would use different gear, medium armour would be more viable and different skill/playstyles would be viable again. Instead we now have two archetypes; the ranged cc spammers and the turtles with sword and board blocking them. This again is part of the big lag problems you find in CP campaigns, where abilities will be spammed endlessly
killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »A diminishing returns on cc only means you can not spam the same cc ability every time the cc immunity is over. You want your crutch. Fine, but be honest about it. And dont complain about lag and the HA meta. I mani a magsorc and I know how painfully easy it is to pinpoint 2-3 melee classes wherever I want them. The only way they can get away is by turtling up. Thats due to no diminishing returns on cc. Onmy melee classes I will never die to your force pulse/crushing shock unless Ive been cc'd firstplace. A diminishing returns would give the melee class much better options when fighting a ranged dps, in particular a magsorc. Lets talk straight here; the bow CC is at best irritating, its the cc the magsorc has which is WHY we need a diminishing returns on cc abilities. With my magsorc I can pinpoint anyone down and then burst them. If they dodge/break free Ill just do it again. I have absolutely no resource problems at all, while the dodge/break free makes sure my melee target WILL be dried up, unless he reaches that LoS shelter, or a tower, I can just repeat the sequence until hes dead. Theres no stamina or abilities left to damage ME when the cc x 2 is over, because I will cc him at least twice if I stand still until he reaches me (then I streak away), then kill him again. Ill stand by my initial comment on this section; if you advocate how ranged cc shouldnt be touched its because you need that crutch. I can still see absolutely no reason as to why there shouldnt be a diminishing return on cc abilities. There ARE players spamming clutch curse and wrath, I just tested it and the reward is far too good. If there was a diminishing return they would have to pick between all the other cc available to them, they would have to think between the global cooldowns on their spammable. All my points still stand I do not find anything in what you are writing which makes them unvalid, apart from highlighting how far ranged classes are willing to degrade themself into whataboutism and pure BS arguments.
Diminishing returns on ranged CC NOW. And make it a hard one. 50% less impact on the second time same cc ability hits the same target until target is out of combat. Then wed actually reduce a LOT of the lag.
usmcjdking wrote: »The problem isn't that they are spammed, or that they do damage. The problem is that they exist beyond the range of gap closers. CC less gap closers leave you so miserably exposed that you're likely to be hit with a ranged stun anyways, but at least you'll make it to your target by the time you break free.
There shouldn't be a single ability that outreaches gap closers.