Maximum range stuns (41m in PvP) make combat miserable

usmcjdking

jaws343 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

The problem isn't that they are spammed, or that they do damage. The problem is that they exist beyond the range of gap closers. CC less gap closers leave you so miserably exposed that you're likely to be hit with a ranged stun anyways, but at least you'll make it to your target by the time you break free.

There shouldn't be a single ability that outreaches gap closers.

Not all classes are built to fight in melee range. Kind of the point of having ranged classes and abilities. If you cannot keep people out of gap closer range and also cannot hit them out of that range, kind of no point to have ranged classes to begin with. Get better at positioning and you won't be out of gap closer range.

That is absolute hogwash. You could make that argument if there was actually a mechanic that shut down ranged skills within 7m, but there isn't. Ranged, with the exception of bow and mag blast bones, is in no offensively detrimental position ever.

xylena_lazarow

jaws343 wrote: »

Kind of the point of having ranged classes and abilities.

If ranged specs can do everything that melee specs can, what is the point of melee?

Illuvatarr

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Kind of the point of having ranged classes and abilities.

If ranged specs can do everything that melee specs can, what is the point of melee?

Hold on, range actually exists in this game against good melee players?

Hint, use battlefield acrobat and you will never run out of stamina and can perma dodge all day long.

Anti_Virus

BNOC wrote: »

OP, you've got PvE warriors who do 150k damage in a BG replying to you, this is the reason these "mechanics" exist, safely ignore them.

The game is too hard for most people if they can't play it like it's Skyrim and the Devs seem more than happy to cater to that inability.

Skill is scarce in this game now, numbers and "mechanics" like pets and 3 button full-hp burst rotations is all that matters for the most part.

Over time, the vets leave and the F2p events just bring floods of noobs in who, as above, think it's Skyrim. I wouldn't hold your breathe.

Sums up all the arguments against the OP nicely.

Anti_Virus

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

So how do we fix it?

One option would be for max range stuns to be prohibitively expensive to spam. Draining Shot currently costs about 2k stamina, so even if I counter the first few, they simply spam it until it connects, barely putting a dent in their 30k stam pool with 2k regen. Now imagine if Draining Shot cost 6k stam, people would have to use it very carefully, or risk dumping their entire resource pool, leaving themselves very vulnerable, or at the very least unable to continue spamming 41m stuns from safety. If your first few 41m stuns are countered, you shouldn't get another 17 tries.

The other option would be to return ranged stuns to the 20-25m range they had at launch, forcing people wielding them to risk actual PvP engagement, perhaps even requiring them to stop spamming their stun and use a gap closer or speed ability to get into stun range.

The original devs knew this and made sure CC skills are costly, for example: javelin templar skill is very expensive so it’s supposed to discourage spamming. But the new devs added a stupid staff called master staff which encourages spamming CCs.

One of the main problems with this game is CC is just too overbearing to deal with in other mmos CC skills usually have cool downs and there are ways to build for CC like control resistance,(something that should be added to eso imo)

Toc de Malsvi

Anti_Virus wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

So how do we fix it?

One option would be for max range stuns to be prohibitively expensive to spam. Draining Shot currently costs about 2k stamina, so even if I counter the first few, they simply spam it until it connects, barely putting a dent in their 30k stam pool with 2k regen. Now imagine if Draining Shot cost 6k stam, people would have to use it very carefully, or risk dumping their entire resource pool, leaving themselves very vulnerable, or at the very least unable to continue spamming 41m stuns from safety. If your first few 41m stuns are countered, you shouldn't get another 17 tries.

The other option would be to return ranged stuns to the 20-25m range they had at launch, forcing people wielding them to risk actual PvP engagement, perhaps even requiring them to stop spamming their stun and use a gap closer or speed ability to get into stun range.

The original devs knew this and made sure CC skills are costly, for example: javelin templar skill is very expensive so it’s supposed to discourage spamming. But the new devs added a stupid staff called master staff which encourages spamming CCs.

One of the main problems with this game is CC is just too overbearing to deal with in other mmos CC skills usually have cool downs and there are ways to build for CC like control resistance,(something that should be added to eso imo)

In other games you can be CC'd for 10 seconds straight, even after considering your break CC cooldowns. Removing CC from range doesn't change the problem people have of being shot by players from range. CC from range is free CC immunity except for in situations where you almost certainly would have died anyways.

But I don't really care, 20m is fine with me as I already need to get close enough that their one dodge roll and my knock back wont take them out of range of my ballista. I just don't think this is a problem and I don't think the arguments against it are very good.

Anti_Virus

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

So how do we fix it?

One option would be for max range stuns to be prohibitively expensive to spam. Draining Shot currently costs about 2k stamina, so even if I counter the first few, they simply spam it until it connects, barely putting a dent in their 30k stam pool with 2k regen. Now imagine if Draining Shot cost 6k stam, people would have to use it very carefully, or risk dumping their entire resource pool, leaving themselves very vulnerable, or at the very least unable to continue spamming 41m stuns from safety. If your first few 41m stuns are countered, you shouldn't get another 17 tries.

The other option would be to return ranged stuns to the 20-25m range they had at launch, forcing people wielding them to risk actual PvP engagement, perhaps even requiring them to stop spamming their stun and use a gap closer or speed ability to get into stun range.

The original devs knew this and made sure CC skills are costly, for example: javelin templar skill is very expensive so it’s supposed to discourage spamming. But the new devs added a stupid staff called master staff which encourages spamming CCs.

One of the main problems with this game is CC is just too overbearing to deal with in other mmos CC skills usually have cool downs and there are ways to build for CC like control resistance,(something that should be added to eso imo)

In other games you can be CC'd for 10 seconds straight, even after considering your break CC cooldowns. Removing CC from range doesn't change the problem people have of being shot by players from range. CC from range is free CC immunity except for in situations where you almost certainly would have died anyways.

But I don't really care, 20m is fine with me as I already need to get close enough that their one dodge roll and my knock back wont take them out of range of my ballista. I just don't think this is a problem and I don't think the arguments against it are very good.

Have you ever played Neverwinter? There was no break free(unless you played Barbarian) but they games pvp for the most part was fine, there was a stat called control resistance which lowered the duration and potency of CCs applied to you plus most CCs including ranged ones had a hefty cool down.

It make combat so much more fun it was about positioning and tactics, CCs were used to temporarily disrupt your opponents momentum.

In Eso CCs are everywhere and is apart of your rotation. If you get CCed you also get Rooted and snared continuously almost.

Eso combat can be summed up as this:

Spam a damage ability, CC(preferably off cc immunity cooldown) root/snare if you need be and repeat, if you factor in ranged CCs and the extremely low ttk of the game.... combat becomes obnoxious.

DaveMoeDee

Leingod wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

max ranged cc should not be part of a pvp game. Nothing more to say. If you disagree its cause you crutch on it, because you cant do better. Now lets see by the responses who needs a crutch in pvp.

Executes should not be part of a pvp game. Nothing more to say. If you disagree its cause you crutch on it, because you cant do better. Now lets see by the responses who needs a crutch in pvp.

Roots should not be part of a pvp game. Nothing more to say. If you disagree its cause you crutch on it, because you cant do better. Now lets see by the responses who needs a crutch in pvp.

Smart healing should not be part of a pvp game. Nothing more to say. If you disagree its cause you crutch on it, because you cant do better. Now lets see by the responses who needs a crutch in pvp.


Anything can be placed in that slot because your statement is ignorant and foolish. Further Snipe has a longer range than any of those CC's so none of those CC's are "max range".

First of all, thanks for proving my point. Now we know where we stand. Ill try to treat you in a respectful manner nevertheless, so to answer your points; Executes. Whithout executes game would be even worse than where we are now with the HA meta. Next; Roots; Roots should have a diminishing returns. Im close to agreeing with you. Smart healing; Healing in CP campaign is way too overtuned and should indeed be tuned a lot down. So we agree on some things, but lets stick to what THIS topic is about; ranged CC. Btw, whataboutism is the foe of the free world.

It isn't a whataboutism, your statement was myopic. Your statement was essentially:

"I'm right your wrong, if you think I'm wrong its cause you are bad, end of story."

That's not an argument, thats not rational or reason. That is the statement of a child who is upset the world isn't going their way.

Dude your 'refutation' post was a case study on whataboutism by over generalizing his point and naming THREE unrelated game mechanics to the thread.

You also just did what you accused him of doing.

He responded to each point and you responded saying "hurr durr your short-sighted words show the intellect of a child". Trying to avoid the ad hominem charge by calling his words "myopic and petulant" (pretty much what you said, mister)?

Sit down black kettle. Or better yet, provide a counter argument.

I don't think that is what they were doing. They were saying we can arbitrarily say anything shouldn't exist. It isn't saying that any of those things are good or bad. It is criticizing that the assertion that "max ranged cc should not be part of a pvp game." As if it is some general rule of game design.

They give the other examples to say, "hey, look at me, I can also make up rules for proper pvp design." Agreeing or disagreeing with the specifics misses the point.

ecru

actually i love being stunned every 8 seconds by a ranged stun that people use as a spammable from 40m range. very cool game design.

Luede

it seems some people play a different pvp eso than i do. except of a sorc is stamina melee the dominant part of eso pvp, and i will tell u, be happy if someone spams his long ranged cc the whole time, because he do less dmg and spent more stam/mag.

cc is a fundamental ability in eso pvp. u will never kill someone if u cant cc him. and if i have a fight its terrible if someone cc my enemy with his laughable long ranged cc, because i am not able to cc him by myself if i need to.

i play a 2h/bow build and didnt even use draining shot. the only good thing is the heal, but it only heals if u stun the enemy and than he gets a cc immunity after a laughable 2 sec stun. u cant use fear/dawnbreaker at this time.

so it is much more effective to use poison arrow and other dmg abilitys to have a much better cc with a killing blow potential.

draining shot is crap. be happy if ur opponent will use / spam it.

and if u have an 1 vs x scenario u should be happy if the long ranged guy didnt use his high dmg abilitys, because u will die a lot faster, and eat the much better cc from the enemy at melee range.

Xvorg

Luede wrote: »

it seems some people play a different pvp eso than i do. except of a sorc is stamina melee the dominant part of eso pvp, and i will tell u, be happy if someone spams his long ranged cc the whole time, because he do less dmg and spent more stam/mag.

cc is a fundamental ability in eso pvp. u will never kill someone if u cant cc him. and if i have a fight its terrible if someone cc my enemy with his laughable long ranged cc, because i am not able to cc him by myself if i need to.

i play a 2h/bow build and didnt even use draining shot. the only good thing is the heal, but it only heals if u stun the enemy and than he gets a cc immunity after a laughable 2 sec stun. u cant use fear/dawnbreaker at this time.

so it is much more effective to use poison arrow and other dmg abilitys to have a much better cc with a killing blow potential.

draining shot is crap. be happy if ur opponent will use / spam it.

and if u have an 1 vs x scenario u should be happy if the long ranged guy didnt use his high dmg abilitys, because u will die a lot faster, and eat the much better cc from the enemy at melee range.

What?

Draining shot is an instant dmg skill with a CC and a very strong heal. In the right build it does a lot of dmg.

Problem is that at least in cyro, you are never fighting only one guy, so a NB spamming draining shot and another spamming snipe can easily kill some melee players.

BlackMadara

jaws343 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

The problem isn't that they are spammed, or that they do damage. The problem is that they exist beyond the range of gap closers. CC less gap closers leave you so miserably exposed that you're likely to be hit with a ranged stun anyways, but at least you'll make it to your target by the time you break free.

There shouldn't be a single ability that outreaches gap closers.

Not all classes are built to fight in melee range. Kind of the point of having ranged classes and abilities. If you cannot keep people out of gap closer range and also cannot hit them out of that range, kind of no point to have ranged classes to begin with. Get better at positioning and you won't be out of gap closer range.

I agree that ranged play should outrange gap closers. This allows spacing to be used as a viable tactic. However ranged CCs should not outrange gap closers. They should be at the same range, so one can CC people as they come into gap close range and be able to retain such range with proper kiting. The current range on some CCs makes it harder for melee specs to close the gap than necessary.