Davadin wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Here's the question- why would people knowingly download and/or keep Miats on their Addons?

The Addon has several nice features that don't give you an edge in combat.

But it also has features that do give players an edge in combat...

Like what?

I use it to count opponents and allies. Too many streamers will say they’re “small scaling” when in fact there’s plenty of their own alliance mates around them, so they aren’t actually fighting outnumbered.

I use the addon to keep myself honest and to show the real odds to the viewers, and I think most viewers appreciate the honesty of being able to see the difficulty (or easiness) of my fights.

It’s in the top left corner of my screen. The alliance war icons that track keep flips are also useful for anticipating zerg movements without having to pull up the map.

It doesn’t do anything that I couldn’t count visually with my eyes. Cloaked opponents aren’t counted.

any issue with AP meter and/or BanditUI?

I think I'll give it a shot. I don't care about notifications, but those shortcuts without pulling the map is nice.

I don’t think so.

Just be sure to turn “attack notifications” off. That’s the part of the addon that was deemed to be unfair by ZOS and got blocked. It’ll bug out every once in a while and cause a UI error message if you don’t disable it.

The Cyrodiil guards have a specific buff that immediately pulls you out of stealth when inside their range. As usually cloaking into a destro heavy will make cloak fall off before the heavy attack lands, you will be immediately uncloaked with the projectile mid-air and thus the attack will be registered as an attack from the open, triggering Miat's new combatant alert.

Most people complaining here about how people seem to detect them even though they stealth up seem to be unaware of cloak not suppressing the sounds your skills make. As any competent player will play without music, utilize a top tier headset and put a high emphasis on skill effects, they will hear the following skills from up to 15 - 20m away and be able to localise theur source:

Siphoning Strikes
Cloak
Merciless Resolve
Race against Time
Heavy Attacks
Elemental Weapon
Inner Light
Shields
Footsteps
The random little moans and shouts your character makes when casting skills or jumping are also audible in stealth. Additionally, they used to be random, so only because your character doesn't make a sound on your screen doesn't mean he doesn't make an audible sound on your victim's screen.

Cloak has a little puff of smoke when you pop out of it that already animates while still having about .2 seconds of invisibility left. If you do not recast cloak early, your enemy will see the little puffs of smoke. He can also hear the sounds of you cloaking around him.

Additionally, detection pots' red eye indicator is not visible for enemies and thus serves absolutely zero purpose outside of noticing the user when their detection runs out. Funnily detection pots do not notify the detected victim - be it stealthed or cloaked - of their visibility.

Moreover, most gankblades are absolutely predictable, so you can just dodge their stuff 1 second after you hear them pulling their "security cloak" before opening with a melee snipe or surprise attack or even hearing their elemental weapon.

Turelus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Here's the question- why would people knowingly download and/or keep Miats on their Addons?

The Addon has several nice features that don't give you an edge in combat.

But it also has features that do give players an edge in combat...

Like what?

I use it to count opponents and allies. Too many streamers will say they’re “small scaling” when in fact there’s plenty of their own alliance mates around them, so they aren’t actually fighting outnumbered.

I use the addon to keep myself honest and to show the real odds to the viewers, and I think most viewers appreciate the honesty of being able to see the difficulty (or easiness) of my fights.

It’s in the top left corner of my screen. The alliance war icons that track keep flips are also useful for anticipating zerg movements without having to pull up the map.

It doesn’t do anything that I couldn’t count visually with my eyes. Cloaked opponents aren’t counted.

It does mean you don't have to do other actions to track those things though.

Knowing a keep is flagged without needing to check the map is an advantage, knowing when flags have been flipped without needing to have a visual is an advantage. These are not going to make you "win" PvP, but to say add-ons don't grant advantages over people who don't use them isn't fair.

Sure but I’d trade all that in without hesitation for constant 144 FPS and/or a higher resolution.

Those people playing on the ultrawide monitors with the massive FOV have it made/

holy *** this add-on is a mess lol...

so many functions, so many crap on my screen.

how can people enjoy playing with a *** spreadsheet overlaid on their screen?

i disabled EVERYTHING except for the nearby keep stats (helpful for see if a rss getting attacked) and the buff/forward camp indicator, so i know i wont die jusssst a little outside the respawn range lol

i still see a couple "somebody's attacking you!" notifications, but yes, i dont get any specific attacks. i think. i mean who can tell at this point.

jaws343 wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

The Cyrodiil guards have a specific buff that immediately pulls you out of stealth when inside their range. As usually cloaking into a destro heavy will make cloak fall off before the heavy attack lands, you will be immediately uncloaked with the projectile mid-air and thus the attack will be registered as an attack from the open, triggering Miat's new combatant alert.

Most people complaining here about how people seem to detect them even though they stealth up seem to be unaware of cloak not suppressing the sounds your skills make. As any competent player will play without music, utilize a top tier headset and put a high emphasis on skill effects, they will hear the following skills from up to 15 - 20m away and be able to localise theur source:

Siphoning Strikes
Cloak
Merciless Resolve
Race against Time
Heavy Attacks
Elemental Weapon
Inner Light
Shields
Footsteps
The random little moans and shouts your character makes when casting skills or jumping are also audible in stealth. Additionally, they used to be random, so only because your character doesn't make a sound on your screen doesn't mean he doesn't make an audible sound on your victim's screen.

Cloak has a little puff of smoke when you pop out of it that already animates while still having about .2 seconds of invisibility left. If you do not recast cloak early, your enemy will see the little puffs of smoke. He can also hear the sounds of you cloaking around him.

Additionally, detection pots' red eye indicator is not visible for enemies and thus serves absolutely zero purpose outside of noticing the user when their detection runs out. Funnily detection pots do not notify the detected victim - be it stealthed or cloaked - of their visibility.

Moreover, most gankblades are absolutely predictable, so you can just dodge their stuff 1 second after you hear them pulling their "security cloak" before opening with a melee snipe or surprise attack or even hearing their elemental weapon.

I think the bigger issue is getting a notification that an attack is incoming, stealthed or not, from off screen. In either instance, you cannot actually see the player. If you cannot see the player, you shouldn't be receiving any notification of their existance or incoming attacks outside of the games native UI. If a player winds up a heavy attack from behind you, you shouldn't magically know about it due to an add-on. You shouldn't even know they are there until you can actually visually see them.

As long as you get an in-game sound alert from the attack firing, I don't see why add-ons shouldn't be able to provide an additional alert for players that fire attacks at you without being stealthed from start to finish. I mean you can see the attack flying through the air if you don't happen to play all zoomed in/first person, you can clearly hear the heavy/snipe sound from the attack firing, you even get native dodge/block alert if you switch it on in the in-game settings (combat hints).

The way you described your wishes for how stealth should work in ESO are obviously not how ZOS designed it to work nor did stealth ever work like that in the game.

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Wow this add-on sounds a bit unfair, to be honest. Gives you an advantage.

About a milisecond of an advantage. Which is often negated by lag

LordTareq wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

But you know what I definitely don't run? A controversial add-on that has been deemed "cheating" by ZOS.

Neither does anyone else here.

Of ALL the addons you could pick to use as an example of cheating, you’ve picked the one that is most closely being scrutinized by ZOS and has been reviewed and patched multiple times.

There is no addon that is a safer to say is legitimate than Miat’s, because Miat’s has been examined the closest.

Btw there are some sketchy addons out there like the auto break free stuff or the bunny hop macros. I’ve never used them and I don’t know where to find them but I have heard from multiple sources that they’re real. You should focus your attention on those.

When an addon warns you of incoming attacks fired a millisecond after stealth dropped, then that addon is crossing a line imho.
And the fact that the creators of Miat didn't see any problem with their earlier incantation after which Zenimax had to disable certain Lua functionalities to prevent it, is telling enough.

When Miat's came out there were numerous private add-ons already using the API that ZOS made available that informed about stealthed players and attacks. As far as origin stories go Miat's has a pretty clean one all things considered. Using the ZOS sanctioned public facing API and actually not keeping what's possible through that API secret is not a terrible thing. Feeling guilty about following ZOS's rules and ending up evening out an uneven playing field would be silly IMO.
As of now even using add-ons like Action Duration Reminder or Srendarr are probably bigger competitive advantages than Miat's.They also show you things the native UI won't show you.





That said, I thought the topic of this discussion was about an attack that triggered my Miat's.Said attack certainly happened while my opponent was in fact fully cloaked despite triggering an alert from Miat's. That alert was a rare thing as I've been successfully attacked from stealth with Miat's on a decent number of times without alerts. Miat's doesn't consistently alert to attacks from stealth anymore.
Whether or not Miat's is evil wasn't part of it.
Whether or not there are other ways to dodge ganks from invisible/stealthed opponents is tangentially related I guess.
Maybe there needs to be separate posts for those specific issues?

(I'm for there being no way to tell a gank is coming. Solo ganking is getting so unrewarding that when I die to gankers I'm usually dying to organized groups of 2-3+ gankers. Passive self healing, passive mitigation, and passive resists are all way too easy to build for.)

JAwtunes wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

Hopefully this is done with now that people understand zos removed its functions from the API.

But have they though? This thread suggests that some attacks are still receiving a notifications as a new player engages. The add-on author has even now said he believes this could be happening with light and heavy attacks. zos claiming to have fixed the issue in their patch notes doesn't mean anything.

Its not our fault and it's not cheating read my last reply for that argument, if you want it removed then go to the devs. Dont say its a "cheat or hack" devs clearly messed up as is the tradition over there during patches.

Zelos wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

Hopefully this is done with now that people understand zos removed its functions from the API.

Yeah but bad players will always need something to blame. In this case, it’s something that doesn’t exist. But hey, what’s new?

In any other game, what miat did, would be considered cheating lol

If there is still something happening with light and heavy attack i am happy someone is reporting it so hopefully it can be fully closed

It's really not, read up what an API is. The api is what allows the users to make something into the game. EVERYTHING I REPEAT EVERYTHING, let me say again, E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G Inside the API has been APPROVED by zenimax online to be ALLOWED to be used by players, in creating addons. However unethical they are is irrelevant, its NOT CHEATING if its approved by zenimax, which again EVERYTHING in the API is. Hopefully this closes the "cheating" issue. If another game had it in its api then exact same thing. The api is created by zos. Dont blame the players for using what they provided, if you want to be ethical in a video game that's your problem not others and not zenimaxes:)

Tell that to all of the players banned from using the VAS exploit and other exploits. Just because it is in the code to be capable of doing, doesn't mean it is intended.

Zelos wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

Hopefully this is done with now that people understand zos removed its functions from the API.

Yeah but bad players will always need something to blame. In this case, it’s something that doesn’t exist. But hey, what’s new?

In any other game, what miat did, would be considered cheating lol

If there is still something happening with light and heavy attack i am happy someone is reporting it so hopefully it can be fully closed

It's really not, read up what an API is. The api is what allows the users to make something into the game. EVERYTHING I REPEAT EVERYTHING, let me say again, E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G Inside the API has been APPROVED by zenimax online to be ALLOWED to be used by players, in creating addons. However unethical they are is irrelevant, its NOT CHEATING if its approved by zenimax, which again EVERYTHING in the API is. Hopefully this closes the "cheating" issue. If another game had it in its api then exact same thing. The api is created by zos. Dont blame the players for using what they provided, if you want to be ethical in a video game that's your problem not others and not zenimaxes:)

It's not an add-on, but a cheat-on.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Yeah, *** our guild for going after keeps and objectives in order to try to win the Alliance War... right? You know- the whole point of this open world PVP format. We're not a small group of Battleground tryhards that get excited when they ultidump on stragglers coming into resources.

And as for the bolded parts- our guild has deaf and mute members. *** us for being inclusive, though. They can't hear where the Lead is directing and they can't announce when they have ultimates up. Ugh, so gross for a guild to include players from all walks of life so that they can enjoy the game, too. (BTW, some of them happen to be better players than you or me.)

But you know what I definitely don't run? A controversial add-on that has been deemed "cheating" by ZOS.

You never answered the question. But I will take this bait you have presented. Going along with your position, you should then be in favor of Miats as it gives visual alerts for information deaf people can't obtain. Miats was (notice I said was) a great resource to help deaf people play, can't hear the audio tell of being sniped at, Miats fixed that for deaf people. In fact many games, Fortnite for example, offer a deaf feature, that gives the player visual ques but at the same time turns off all audio to make sure it isn't abused for something other than its intended effect.

darkblue5 wrote: »

When Miat's came out there were numerous private add-ons already using the API that ZOS made available that informed about stealthed players and attacks.

It's amazing people still can't grasp this concept. If anything you people should be praising Miat for leveling the playing field. Many small groups of players were using their own add-ons and not making them public, obviously. If anyone has a issue with Miats you need to make a new post asking for Zos to change the api.

lordrichter wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

It's really not, read up what an API is. The api is what allows the users to make something into the game. EVERYTHING I REPEAT EVERYTHING, let me say again, E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G Inside the API has been APPROVED by zenimax online to be ALLOWED to be used by players, in creating addons. However unethical they are is irrelevant, its NOT CHEATING if its approved by zenimax, which again EVERYTHING in the API is. Hopefully this closes the "cheating" issue. If another game had it in its api then exact same thing. The api is created by zos. Dont blame the players for using what they provided, if you want to be ethical in a video game that's your problem not others and not zenimaxes:)

No. Just like with every other part of the game, players, including add-on writers, are required to stay within the Code of Conduct and Terms of Service. Players are prohibited from cheating and exploiting bugs, or the game itself. That includes using information coming from the API and using the functions in the API to do things.

There is nothing in anything that ZOS has written or said (that I have witnessed) that states that if the game, or API, allows it, then it is golden and nothing bad will befall anyone doing it.

Yes, ZOS is often vague on specifically what does, and does not, violate the ToS and CoC, and they appear to frequently give passes for one activity, and bans for another, seemingly similar, activity. They often choose to ignore requests for information. We generally don't know what ZOS thinks about a particular activity until they take action against players. Such news only rarely comes from a trusted source, like ZOS. More typically, we get dodgy anecdotal information from players making claims against ZOS.


TL;DR: Don't trust the capabilities of the API to keep you off the ZOS action list. You are still responsible for following the ToS and CoC, even if the API allows you to do something.

No, you have to read how an API works becuase you did not read a thing I said. The API is created by the devs and everything inside of it is within the TOS or else it wouldnt be inside the API. It's that simple:) they did not create it automatically, they had people go through all available functions to players and said, "Yes that looks good, we are okay with that." Its an addon, not a cheat. It's not against tos, it's not a 3rd party executable that hooks into the game and changes code or runs it's own scripts. It uses the games PUBLIC FUNCTIONS available from the API made by the devs, WHICH ARE GOOD IN TERMS OF TOS.