Miat's is still sometimes telling its user about attacks from stealth

darkblue5

Something I've been annoyed about I think I have a more reasonable explanation for. People have been dodging my ganks sometimes especially on magblade. I think I may have figured out a combination of factors that explain some of those instances without intentional cheating.

So last night I was on a resource trying out new magblade. A fellow magblade came in stealthed up and came to attack me. I was standing amidst the NPCs on the flag blocking when I heard the Miat's terrible screech go off. Figuring someone was out of stealth attacking from off screen I dodged. It was the opening of the magblade, even though they were in stealth. Interestingly during the fight that was the only time Miat's indicated and incoming attack from stealth. I just did the normal thing of either blocking, kiting through NPCs or Shadowy Disguising etc in response after that.

A lot of the times I've had my attacks from stealth dodged were when I was in range of NPC's sight. Something about that might be somehow moving at minimum the attack indication back into a state that Miat's can report on. So many of the times I kind of thought someone went out of their way to get something to dodge attacks from stealth may have been people innocently using Miat's.

I mostly don't use Miat's for its screech on attack function and mostly for the reporting on the status of objectives. I don't usually use it period because I think generally not only are the screeches annoying but they're some of the least informative indications of incoming attacks and mostly are a bit of an overload. Also knowing the precise status of flags and resources is only most important for me when I'm trying to figure out if I have enough time to ride over and attempt a bomb.


Now I think if I keep using it knowing it rarely gets data on ganks that I shouldn't have any business knowing about is exploiting. I hope ZOS can figure out why that happened and fully fix stealthed attacks from becoming a part of the data Miat's and add-ons like it have access to.

Donny_Vito

For those who are on console, or do not use add-ons, can you say what the purpose of the 'Miat' add-on is for? Is it meant for PvE or PvP?

DeadlyRecluse

Donny_Vito wrote: »

For those who are on console, or do not use add-ons, can you say what the purpose of the 'Miat' add-on is for? Is it meant for PvE or PvP?

It's PvP-centric. It used to, very reliably, give you solid indicators when you were about to come under attack from an unseen source (i.e. get ganked).

That functionality has since been neutered, though apparently not fully removed.

darkblue5

I forgot to add that I believe that my opponent opened with a heavy attack into skill weave with an inferno staff. A number of the times I did that opening with my magblade was when my opponents would dodge. I think they dodged that more than Soul Harvests from stealth or Elemental Weapon->Concealed Blade ganks.

I've also hadmy opponents dodge/block stealthed heavy attack into poison injection on a normal stamblade, wrecking blow into LA->Onslaught ganks, and ye olde buggy snipes when celebrating/mourning the end of both Wood Elves' stealth damage bonus and then again with the more recent snipe nerfs.

Fairly sure not all of those times were around NPCs though most of those times involved usually a number of others in the area where I was in their line of sight. I think it does happen more when around enemy NPCs who do seem to see through stealth.

Still was rare for opponents to dodge my ganks, and despite having opponents use the heavy attack from stealth opening on me when I had Miats on a number of times before this was the first time I received an indication I should not have received.

Thogard

I have the attack indicators turned off but I still get the sound whenever a new combatant adds onto the fight. It’s really useful for 1vX so I can keep track of how many people I’m fighting and so I know when to run away lol.

It counts nearby enemies. If someone comes out of stealth even for a split second (is if the guards aggro) then they’ll get counted as an enemy and I hear the sound.

Donny_Vito

Wow this add-on sounds a bit unfair, to be honest. Gives you an advantage.

TheNorthernDragon

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Wow this add-on sounds a bit unfair, to be honest. Gives you an advantage.

How is this unfair, when any PC player can download Miat's?

TriangularChicken

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Wow this add-on sounds a bit unfair, to be honest. Gives you an advantage.

Attacking from stealth sounds unfair too. It also gives you an advantage.

Fur_like_snow

It still makes a noise when you’re targeted by a player that hasn’t targeted you previously. Zerglings will hate on it but it’s great for 1vX.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Donny_Vito wrote: »

For those who are on console, or do not use add-ons, can you say what the purpose of the 'Miat' add-on is for? Is it meant for PvE or PvP?

Cheating. It’s for cheating. Haha. But “everyone does it” so it’s ok. Bleh.

Console master race.

Mr_Nobody

It still notifies of all incoming projectiles, better roll now.

SirAndy

TheNorthernDragon wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Wow this add-on sounds a bit unfair, to be honest. Gives you an advantage.

How is this unfair, when any PC player can download Miat's?

But does every PC player *know* about Miat's? If not, it still gives you an advantage ...

Morgul667

SirAndy wrote: »

TheNorthernDragon wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Wow this add-on sounds a bit unfair, to be honest. Gives you an advantage.

How is this unfair, when any PC player can download Miat's?

But does every PC player *know* about Miat's? If not, it still gives you an advantage ...

Cheaters tend to defend what should not be defended

I wish zos completely removed such addon

Vapirko

TheNorthernDragon wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Wow this add-on sounds a bit unfair, to be honest. Gives you an advantage.

How is this unfair, when any PC player can download Miat's?

AANNNND here we go again.

Thogard

Morgul667 wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

TheNorthernDragon wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Wow this add-on sounds a bit unfair, to be honest. Gives you an advantage.

How is this unfair, when any PC player can download Miat's?

But does every PC player *know* about Miat's? If not, it still gives you an advantage ...

Cheaters tend to defend what should not be defended

I wish zos completely removed such addon

They did.

I can’t believe we’re doing this again.

LordTareq

Well that explains the 'lucky' dodge rolls my victims sometimes make. Such addons should be banned.

Thogard

LordTareq wrote: »

Well that explains the 'lucky' dodge rolls my victims sometimes make. Such addons should be banned.

They were..

kaithuzar

Morgul667 wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

TheNorthernDragon wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Wow this add-on sounds a bit unfair, to be honest. Gives you an advantage.

How is this unfair, when any PC player can download Miat's?

But does every PC player *know* about Miat's? If not, it still gives you an advantage ...

Cheaters tend to defend what should not be defended

I wish zos completely removed such addon

If they’ve been to the forums before, they know about it; due to people arguing about it.
ZOS business, last I checked the “hiring page”, says they’re only willing to higher people who can work out of Maryland.
It’s obvious there may be better coders in the rest of the world.

Don’t forget many of the originals have left since launch.

It’s possible that fixing this situation is something that would require an entire redesign of the API & just isn’t feasible from a business investment stance.
Why else would they have not fixed it, if it were deemed an exploit?

If the situation is as I describe it, then there’s no use complaining on the forms.
The only options are if you’re a good coder and you care about it, move to Maryland and apply for a job. Otherwise if you are just loaded with money get on their Board of Directors and then make it a priority item or hire better coders to fix it.

Thogard

I’m on vacation and can’t play ESO, so in the down time I’m reading these boards on my phone.

And it’s gonna give me a stroke.

ZOS specifically patched the API to specifically target the Miat addon in question here.

They’ve done it twice now due to people whining. The first time they chose not to remove the channel / projectile notification.. then after threads like these they specifically went in and changed the API just to block this.

Your attacks are being dodged because you’re predictable. The addon does not do what you think it does. We know this because the game has specifically been patched TWICE to address the whining.

If you don’t want someone to know a gank is coming, don’t let the guards aggro you...

Dorrino

*randomly lurks*

Yep, I suspect light/heavy attacks to sometimes register in one of the events. That's why my addon correctly recognizes it as a new attacker and produces the 'terrible screech':)

And that's why it happens only once during the fight, because it's only the new attacker notification.

I leisurely tried to explore it but couldn't reliably find the culprit. I.e. what exactly is registered from stealth.

Zos messed up somewhere, as is tradition:)

Cathexis

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Wow this add-on sounds a bit unfair, to be honest. Gives you an advantage.

I read this and laughed so hard, friend. You don't even know the rage that underscores this feeling so many traditional players have about it. There was a lengthy debate when it became public and many players were angry.

My stance has always been that if it can be manipulated in the add-ons interface it is technically fair game, but I warned against the deteriorating effects it would have on PvP combat and the overall quality of play, the deminishment of play styles, and here we are now.

I remain firm in the stance that just because something is the way it is, doesn't mean that it should be that way, and it doesn't mean that it should continue. Being able to see attacks coming at you from off the screen gives you an obviously skewed advantage outside of the parameters of the base game, and you should not be required to use an add-on for PvP. It has implications for things like when a player should be stealthed, the duration and opportunities you have to engage close range to other players, and avoiding the need to expend resources to recover from attacks you normally wouldn't avoid.

Players do not seem to understand that when you create an edge for a smaller group of players at the expense of the larger player base, the net effect is that the game becomes poorer. It's like when players demand buffs for their favourite class and nerfs for classes they can't fight, or making siege into nerf cannons and healing 10x more powerful than damage. It skews the game variables in such a way that they become entirely calculated to the extent where you can guarantee a win by number crunching. That isn't what PvP is about. Human decision making is a different form of calculation, it has far less predictability. The risk/reward variability and range of opponents making human decisions is what distinctly separates PvP from PvE. This game used to have a much more tactical edge to it and it has been completely factored out in favour of number crunching.

Zelos

Hopefully this is done with now that people understand zos removed its functions from the API.

Thogard

Zelos wrote: »

Hopefully this is done with now that people understand zos removed its functions from the API.

Yeah but bad players will always need something to blame. In this case, it’s something that doesn’t exist. But hey, what’s new?

JAwtunes

Zelos wrote: »

Hopefully this is done with now that people understand zos removed its functions from the API.

But have they though? This thread suggests that some attacks are still receiving a notifications as a new player engages. The add-on author has even now said he believes this could be happening with light and heavy attacks. zos claiming to have fixed the issue in their patch notes doesn't mean anything.

master_vanargand

If you use notification tool in FPS, you will be BAN.
Should everyone use cheat tools?
I think No.

Morgul667

Thogard wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

Hopefully this is done with now that people understand zos removed its functions from the API.

Yeah but bad players will always need something to blame. In this case, it’s something that doesn’t exist. But hey, what’s new?

In any other game, what miat did, would be considered cheating lol

If there is still something happening with light and heavy attack i am happy someone is reporting it so hopefully it can be fully closed

hero2zer0

Morgul667 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

Hopefully this is done with now that people understand zos removed its functions from the API.

Yeah but bad players will always need something to blame. In this case, it’s something that doesn’t exist. But hey, what’s new?

In any other game, what miat did, would be considered cheating lol

If there is still something happening with light and heavy attack i am happy someone is reporting it so hopefully it can be fully closed

This would only be cheating if he did something not supported by the game. In this case, all the author did was use the API provided by the game developers, in a clever way. If they think this is cheating, they can just alter the API...oh wait, They already did, twice!

Tommy_The_Gun

TheNorthernDragon wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Wow this add-on sounds a bit unfair, to be honest. Gives you an advantage.

How is this unfair, when any PC player can download Miat's?

Any Football / Soccer player can use Performance-enhancing substances (drugs) too ?

Elsonso

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

TheNorthernDragon wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Wow this add-on sounds a bit unfair, to be honest. Gives you an advantage.

How is this unfair, when any PC player can download Miat's?

Any Football / Soccer player can use Performance-enhancing substances (drugs) too ?

Big difference is that ESO is not a competitive e-sport, and they don't seem interested in making it one. ESO is more of a social pick-up game than an organized sport.

If you are playing a social pick-up basketball game at the neighborhood court, any, or all, of the players could be taking performance enhancing substances.

Not saying they should all use Miats, and not saying that ZOS should not close any gaps that remain that can be closed, but this all does not rise to the level of comparisons to (professional) sports and steroids.

Kadoin

Don't need any Miats to know an NB's exact attack timing when they attack 2 seconds after and if you look around, you always see them cloak. Also don't need it if you move around with the block button on your finger all the time. I personally never use add-ons because I think they're terrible for the game, and I don't need my screen taken up with stupid messages that block my FoV.

Now, I've been wondering this for a while: I saw players cry about Miats, yet these same players likely have no issue with the other add-ons that tell people when to purge, roll, block, etc. Isn't that strange?

TheFamousMockingbird

As long as there is an equivalent amount of information provided by the base game UI then I think its fair. The old API info that Miats used was unfair because it wasn't present in the base game for everyone and it intersected the question of whether the developers intended it to or not.

Example: When attacked by a new foe the battle music starts. I always have my music loud enough to hear it, its the base game version of "hey you're in combat!" Instead of music, Miat's gives you the more robust notification, and maybe just a second or 2 sooner than you get the same info from your music or visual cue. It also provides for people with hearing issues to play so they can translate it to a visual cue in game using add ons. In PvP it seems that the latency on the API info you get is not as impacted as other in game functions. So add another 500-1000ms of advantage.