Solution for overland difficulty that will suit everyone

ZeroXFF · May 2019

I see discussions about overland being too difficult or too easy all the time, and both sides have valid arguments. So now I present to you a concept of a solution that will suit everyone (the exact numbers would of course have to be adjusted to be balanced).

A difficulty slider that does the following:
- increases damage taken by your char from overland/delve/public dungeon mobs by up to 20x
- reduces your damage done to those mobs by up to 20x on server side, on client side instead display up to 20x higher HP, so that the players have a consistent impression of their character's capabilities and see consistent damage numbers
- increases experience gained by up to 100% (to offset the time you would lose and make it worthwhile to level at higher difficulty if you're good enough)
- increases frequency and quality of gear and consumable drops (to aid dealing with the given difficulty level and provide incentives to use the higher difficulty). But don't add items that people at lower difficulty would not be able to get too, just for example make set and potion drops more likely.

Rules:
- the slider would affect all these settings proportionally so that everyone can pick their own "sweet spot" of risk vs. reward
- if people with a different difficulty setting were fighting the same mob, set rewards (XP and drops) for all those people to what the one with the lowest setting would get
- instead of doing population balancing among different shards randomly, try to group people with similar difficulty settings (make the range as small as you can while making the population look the same as it is now, dynamically adjusting ranges based on how many people there are in those given ranges), so that a random person who thinks that they are helping won't accidentally result in bad drops for the ones they are helping
- set quest rewards (gold and XP since adjusting the gear there would require a lot of work) to the equivalent of the lowest setting that you had since you picked up the quest

Doing it like this will provide incentives for people to get better without it preventing newbs from progressing and without making it boring for the pros who will be very unlikely to even encounter a newb in their travels (unless it's off-peak hours or such a newb ported to a friend/guildie who was at your setting).

I think this would be an optimal solution, because we won't have to find the "lowest common denominator", everyone would be able to pick whatever suits them, and due to the difficulty being adjusted procedurally, no game content would have to be changed at all, and it would be easy enough to implement within one DLC cycle without too much of a hassle. And should there be more power creep in the future, just increase the top end of the slider.

exeeter702 · May 2019

This doesnt work unless you incorporate a mob tagging mechanic. Otherwise on your end, those aiming for higher difficulty would be griefed or otherwise entirely inconvenienced when a random low level player comes and tags their mob. Imagine bumping the difficulty up to take out a world boss and having a few low level super new players come by and join in the fun. On one hand you have just enabled a gross powerleveing system and on the other you have just implemented a system that would actively punish those seeking the high risk high reward route.

Logistically, your proposed system would be a massive load on the mega server for how many shards it would have to dynamically produce per zone, on top of being downright impractical and needlessly obtuse.

Sorry but this isnt some grand new idea. These things have been thought of by those who actually have business coming up with game systems.

Starlock · May 2019

Is there an example of any online game that has had player-controlled difficulty settings? I don't know of one, but if someone knows of one, please let us know. I suspect that if there isn't one, there are very good reasons for this.

Vercingetorix · May 2019

Solution for overland difficulty that will suit everyone: Use CP150 white gear and go solo a world boss

There, you can waste time on that while the rest of us play the game in peace as it was designed all without wasting dev time on a pointless request.

seipher09 · May 2019

I think we should just have a stone we can pray at. Doing so puts a small icon next to your name so others know you have it. It increases damage taken and reduces damage received by 5% each day (or until you use the stone again to reset or disable).

Each day that % also determines the additional amount of xp you receive. I see no downsides to something like that.

ZeroXFF · May 2019

exeeter702 wrote: »

This doesnt work unless you incorporate a mob tagging mechanic. Otherwise on your end, those aiming for higher difficulty would be griefed or otherwise entirely inconvenienced when a random low level player comes and tags their mob. Imagine bumping the difficulty up to take out a world boss and having a few low level super new players come by and join in the fun. On one hand you have just enabled a gross powerleveing system and on the other you have just implemented a system that would actively punish those seeking the high risk high reward route.

Logistically, your proposed system would be a massive load on the mega server for how many shards it would have to dynamically produce per zone, on top of being downright impractical and needlessly obtuse.

Sorry but this isnt some grand new idea. These things have been thought of by those who actually have business coming up with game systems.

How often do you even see other players when going around solo? So yeah, there is a potential for griefing, but it's a highly unlikely scenario. But yeah, to prevent it, we can instead increase the difficulty for the person with lower setting instead until the fight is over. And if it's the one with the lower setting who started the fight first, leave settings unchanged for the person joining.

When it comes to shard generation, it's happening already, just with different parameters. The additional overhead would be minimal. It's not like you have to create a new shard each time the parameters change, just put people who zone in into a different instance.

MaleAmazon · May 2019

Is there an example of any online game that has had player-controlled difficulty settings?

Diablo 3 has, and is (technically) online.

I mean, I haven´t played MMOs, but generally the reason not to have player controlled difficulty in an RPG is that the RPG itself provides different levels of difficulty in different areas and with autoleveling. Same as ESO did at the start, then of course they realised this was an untenable situation and fixed it with 1 Tamriel, unfortunately for the moment they have resigned to referring veteran players to trials and hardmodes.

Like I´ve said elsewhere; with 1T the game already does have separate difficulties for low lvl and high lvl players in battle leveling as well as battle spirit. It just isn´t optional.

Unless they are using the same parts of the code (recoded), everything for additional difficulty with money reward is already in the game: prosperous trait used to give gold and debuffs are in already.

It could be as easy as drinking or eating something (someone suggested 'undaunted beer', maybe 'dungeon daiquiri', 'new meatballs', 'Sotha Zinfandel', 'Elden Root Beer' you get the idea...) that debuffs you and gives you some reward for the duration. Or putting in a set that debuffs you (already in Cyrodiil, sorta), like 'masochist´s mail', whatever.

ZeroXFF · May 2019

Starlock wrote: »

Is there an example of any online game that has had player-controlled difficulty settings? I don't know of one, but if someone knows of one, please let us know. I suspect that if there isn't one, there are very good reasons for this.

I don't think there was anything equivalent to one tamriel until ESO did it either. Just because something doesn't exist doesn't mean it's impossible.

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2019

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Solution for overland difficulty that will suit everyone: Use CP150 white gear and go solo a world boss

There, you can waste time on that while the rest of us play the game in peace as it was designed all without wasting dev time on a pointless request.

Or, you know, actually make this game enjoyable for longtime players outside of PvP or trials. What are all those new zones and questlines worth to them if they can steamroll it with eyes closed? But I know, if it isn't important to you it's a waste of dev time. Got it.

Cortimi · May 2019

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Solution for overland difficulty that will suit everyone: Use CP150 white gear and go solo a world boss

There, you can waste time on that while the rest of us play the game in peace as it was designed all without wasting dev time on a pointless request.

Exactly. People can already adjust the difficulty by wearing crappier gear.

El_Borracho · May 2019

Ugh, this one again. For the last time, you can't make a slider for difficulty in a game where 10+ people can fight the same world boss, mob, etc. at the same time. There are simply too many variables that go into the game as it is. For instance, what if multiple CP 810 players happen upon the same WB? Some are on a Level 10 difficulty while the others are on a Level 1? Do the Level 1 players get to burn down their boss faster? OF COURSE THEY DO. Then we will be treated to the inevitable whining from the "make overland harder" crowd that they aren't getting their drops, EXP, etc. that they deserve because these other players aren't increasing their difficulty, so they can't get their full hard-mode experience, and so on.

Then there is the issue of lag. Head over to an Alik'r dolmen. Now imagine it if the server has to deal with 10-20 players who all have adjustable difficulty levels. Woo hoo, we've broken the game. Better fire up that thread whining about how ZOS needs to fix scaled difficulty in overland zones!

This game was plenty tough when we all started as a new player at level 1 with zero CP. I don't see why its the devs responsibility to handicap experienced players performance. Like @Vercingetorix said, you want to make it harder? Wear worse gear. Eat lower level food. Remove CP from your character. Play an off-meta 2H heavy-attack hybrid build. Seems all of these are easier solutions that "drop everything and completely alter the game to suit my highly-specific overland questing needs."

tinythinker · May 2019

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I see discussions about overland being too difficult or too easy all the time, and both sides have valid arguments. So now I present to you a concept of a solution that will suit everyone (the exact numbers would of course have to be adjusted to be balanced).

A difficulty slider

A slider means more calculations per player which means more server calculations in an area with people at various settings

seipher09 wrote: »

I think we should just have a stone we can pray at. Doing so puts a small icon next to your name so others know you have it. It increases damage taken and reduces damage received by 5% each day (or until you use the stone again to reset or disable).

Each day that % also determines the additional amount of xp you receive. I see no downsides to something like that.

There have been similar suggestions. But until they get CP revamped or find another use for excess xp, people at CP 810 and over won't benefit and they are among those most likely to want more challenge --

Hold on, let me pick up this next one as well...

MaleAmazon wrote: »

It could be as easy as drinking or eating something (someone suggested 'undaunted beer', maybe 'dungeon daiquiri', 'new meatballs', 'Sotha Zinfandel', 'Elden Root Beer' you get the idea...) that debuffs you and gives you some reward for the duration. Or putting in a set that debuffs you (already in Cyrodiil, sorta), like 'masochist´s mail', whatever.

So yeah, I won't link the post I always link from my old thread/comments every time this comes up because at the moment I don't have it handy, but, it kind of comes down to an RP part, a mechanics part, and a reward part.

For the RP part, it could involve some cosmic power like one of the Divines or a Daedric Prince or some spell an NPC casts on you or several dozen other things, but it needs to fit with someone powerful enough to debuff you and a reason they would care enough to do it and reward you for it. For people who feel an active religious element is missing from ESO this would be a great opening. Everyone has their own RP story to explain a challenge mode, so while it might be fun to speculate it gets away from how the mode might work.

For the mechanics part, sliders present problems with difficulty scaling and reward calculations being individual to each players in an area. Having one or two preset modes reduces this, but as players we don't know what impact even that would have on performance. Also some people may not feel a challenge mode scales hard enough or that it's too hard, but my vote would be *shrug* to that complaint, because not every feature can suit every player.

For the reward part, it really becomes a discussion about how rewards work in general at this time in ESO. Experience points seem obvious, yet, experience is useless at the moment once you get to Champion Rank 810. I have over 1000 Champion Points but I can't use any more than 810 for the forseeable future. Now, I have and will continue to suggest that Champ Ranks get more than few outfits and points to spend in a buffing system, but again, moot for as long as the Champion freeze lasts.

And the thing is, it's players at 810+ that are the most likely to be bored with overland because of their increased CP buffs and how long they've been playing.

So that suggests getting more creative with a reward system that feels good but isn't sooooo good that challenge mode feels obligatory. Because that is a huge trap in MMO development. So maybe some currency system that provides temporary conveniences or temporary minor buffs that can be consumed yet have a cool-down so they can't be farmed and used 24/7, or some emotes that expire and have to be repurchased, etc. Nothing too heavy. And whatever else, some achievements and a dye would be good

Ydrisselle · May 2019

Starlock wrote: »

Is there an example of any online game that has had player-controlled difficulty settings? I don't know of one, but if someone knows of one, please let us know. I suspect that if there isn't one, there are very good reasons for this.

Star Trek Online has it, but every quest is instanced there - so you will only see other players if they are in your group, or if it's a raid.

Tandor · May 2019

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Solution for overland difficulty that will suit everyone: Use CP150 white gear and go solo a world boss

There, you can waste time on that while the rest of us play the game in peace as it was designed all without wasting dev time on a pointless request.

Or, you know, actually make this game enjoyable for longtime players outside of PvP or trials. What are all those new zones and questlines worth to them if they can steamroll it with eyes closed? But I know, if it isn't important to you it's a waste of dev time. Got it.

Whereas if it's important to you it's a worthwhile use of dev time. Got it.

karekiz · May 2019

You mean with a difficulty slider I can have a perma 100% increase in XP.

AFK DOLMENS HERE I COME!

MikaHR · May 2019

Here is the solution for everyone:

remove CO and HEAVILY nerf top end gear.

It has huge added benefit of putting power creep that has spiraled out of control....under control again.

See, its a win win, you lot get what you want and ZOS puts the game back under control.

Also your suggestion is meaningless as you can do that right now without any additional work from the devs (just dont use CP and wear white gear...or go naked at it)....and people refuse to do it, instead they choose to spend their time whining about how the game is so easy.

idk · May 2019

I would not be against a "slider" for to weaken ones character as OP suggests as long a it was not to complicated to make it work and did not add the server load. The idea is not like battle spirit. If it would work it should not work in group content such as trials.

However, there is no reason to adjust the rewards. The reward is more challenge.

Sevn · May 2019

No additional rewards and optional? Ok.
Additional rewards? Nope. The added challenge is your reward. Should not need or get anything else.

Starlock · May 2019

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Is there an example of any online game that has had player-controlled difficulty settings? I don't know of one, but if someone knows of one, please let us know. I suspect that if there isn't one, there are very good reasons for this.

Star Trek Online has it, but every quest is instanced there - so you will only see other players if they are in your group, or if it's a raid.

I could see it working with a lot of instancing. Otherwise, I don’t see how it could work when there are hundreds of players in an area. I doubt of ESO would move in that direction after all the work of One Tamriel aiming to bring players together.

StormeReigns · May 2019

Overland content is fine as is. No need to change it (again), no need to introduce some meta goat millhouse feature that will bog an out of date game engine down more.

jainiadral · May 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

Here is the solution for everyone:

remove CO and HEAVILY nerf top end gear.

It has huge added benefit of putting power creep that has spiraled out of control....under control again.

See, its a win win, you lot get what you want and ZOS puts the game back under control.

Also your suggestion is meaningless as you can do that right now without any additional work from the devs (just dont use CP and wear white gear...or go naked at it)....and people refuse to do it, instead they choose to spend their time whining about how the game is so easy.

HELL NO. I like my CP and use every point I have on every toon. I enjoy my cakewalk, and I've spent one heck of a long time earning it. Take that away or nerf it, and I walk. This game is brutal and no fun without it.

jainiadral · May 2019

And to the OP's point, I'm thinking voluntary vet instanced zones might be the best solution. No additional rewards, aside from additional XP for the time to kill difference. Obviously, something is needed for higher-end players, but that shouldn't ruin the game for the rest of us.

Wifeaggro13 · May 2019

Starlock wrote: »

Is there an example of any online game that has had player-controlled difficulty settings? I don't know of one, but if someone knows of one, please let us know. I suspect that if there isn't one, there are very good reasons for this.

Yes age of conan. They had an option for all overland zones to make them epic. It mad the zone all group elite encounters with better gear drops. They were quite fun actually

Wifeaggro13 · May 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

Here is the solution for everyone:

remove CO and HEAVILY nerf top end gear.

It has huge added benefit of putting power creep that has spiraled out of control....under control again.

See, its a win win, you lot get what you want and ZOS puts the game back under control.

Also your suggestion is meaningless as you can do that right now without any additional work from the devs (just dont use CP and wear white gear...or go naked at it)....and people refuse to do it, instead they choose to spend their time whining about how the game is so easy.

Honestly the power creep has more to do with the absolute travesty of tamriel one implement. And a complete disregard of vertical progression, which is cleverly hid behind a ever shifting meta and horrible itemization system. If the wheel ain't broke dont reinvent it.

Rev Rielle · May 2019

Personally I think they should return to the 'adventure zone' style they initiated with the original iteration of Craglorn. An overland group-designed zone for everyone provides a relative challenge for those solo wanting it.

My humble advice to development would be - if they were looking into another adventure zone - to make it a realm of oblivion. After all the Deadra are supposed to be the most dire threat to Tamriel. Craglorn whilst mechanical great, missed the mark because of such illogical things like, for example, wasps that hit harder than Molag Bal.

tinythinker · May 2019

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Personally I think they should return to the 'adventure zone' style they initiated with the original iteration of Craglorn. An overland group-designed zone for everyone provides a relative challenge for those solo wanting it.

My humble advice to development would be - if they were looking into another adventure zone - to make it a realm of oblivion. After all the Deadra are supposed to be the most dire threat to Tamriel. Craglorn whilst mechanical great, missed the mark because of such illogical things like, for example, wasps that hit harder than Molag Bal.

I would be OK with this, but I'd be surprised if ZOS tried that again. All of the ideas in these and similar threads could work, as well as other ideas, but ZOS has given no indication this is a priority. Their list of features in development is a long one.

MikaHR · May 2019

tinythinker wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Personally I think they should return to the 'adventure zone' style they initiated with the original iteration of Craglorn. An overland group-designed zone for everyone provides a relative challenge for those solo wanting it.

My humble advice to development would be - if they were looking into another adventure zone - to make it a realm of oblivion. After all the Deadra are supposed to be the most dire threat to Tamriel. Craglorn whilst mechanical great, missed the mark because of such illogical things like, for example, wasps that hit harder than Molag Bal.

I would be OK with this, but I'd be surprised if ZOS tried that again. All of the ideas in these and similar threads could work, as well as other ideas, but ZOS has given no indication this is a priority. Their list of features in development is a long one.

Of course, Craglorn (and whole VET areas nonsesne) was the biggest failure in ESO, why would they want to repeat that failure?

mocap · May 2019

casual players already have 2000 quests, how about something for leveled players? It's just not fair.

nTranced · May 2019

Starlock wrote: »

Is there an example of any online game that has had player-controlled difficulty settings? I don't know of one, but if someone knows of one, please let us know. I suspect that if there isn't one, there are very good reasons for this.

Anthem has 6 player selectable difficulty levels, although the higher level NPCs only have more HP/hit harder, rather than having more challenging mechanics.

Uviryth · May 2019

Star Wars the old Republic does it perfectly. You can choose between Normal (for Beginners), Veteran (for Advanced) and Expert (For Masochists or Groups) for all Overlandcontent.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · May 2019

Or ... just take off your armor.