Solution for overland difficulty that will suit everyone

MikaHR

Uviryth wrote: »

Star Wars the old Republic does it perfectly. You can choose between Normal (for Beginners), Veteran (for Advanced) and Expert (For Masochists or Groups) for all Overlandcontent.

Since when? All you can do is put your companion away, and you cant even take off your gear because your stats are automatically scaled to max level for the planet regardless of gear.

The only such sliders you mention are in KOTFE and KOTET chapters.

Escapism

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Yes age of conan. They had an option for all overland zones to make them epic. It mad the zone all group elite encounters with better gear drops. They were quite fun actually

This option like it existed in Age of Conan would be great in teso, a seperate optional "veteran" version for each overland map, where everything in the map from trash mobs to quests was designed and balanced for groups instead of solo play.

Every mob and boss on the map would be "upgraded" by 1-2 tiers, the world bosses would become actual raid bosses, the delves would become like normal group dungeons and the public dungeons would become like veteran/dlc dungeons. Dolmens should also require a lot of players and spawn a lot harder mobs, or even multiple bosses.

This could then come with slightly better loot/xp obviously, and an increase in quality of the dropped loot, still max. epic of course, but maybe with a chance for legendary drops from the world bosses, dolmens or public dungeons if they had raid-like scaling difficulty.

Imryll

I actually feel a little sympathy for folks who find content too easy--and they always squander it by not just asking for extra programming to suit their tastes, but also asking for bonus rewards.

Chadak

Imryll wrote: »

I actually feel a little sympathy for folks who find content too easy--and they always squander it by not just asking for extra programming to suit their tastes, but also asking for bonus rewards.

Kinda makes it seem like what they're really after is extra rewards.

DaveMoeDee

Not sure OP thought through this. So if I am at max difficulty and barely doing damage on a WB, the fight is clearly going to take a really long time. After 40 minutes of hitting a damage sponge, more people will come, lowering my rewards despite the effort?

This system is bad because it is adding a reason for players to get angry with other players for playing together. Even worse, it is adding a reason for experienced players to yell at new players.

In threads like these, there are always people mentioning reviving old zones. Why is that a thing? Just move on to new locations and go back to those zones when you need a particular set. Or go play something else if you don't have anything to do for a stretch. They don't need to make this into a grindy loot game.

Wifeaggro13

Imryll wrote: »

I actually feel a little sympathy for folks who find content too easy--and they always squander it by not just asking for extra programming to suit their tastes, but also asking for bonus rewards.

It was actually the reality of tamriel one in reverse. I mean really a butt load of player census screamed for easier content with no restriction. They promptly left once they hit the end game and achieved their participation gear.

ArchMikem

Yknow a standard 2k hit multiplied 20x turns into a 40k oneshot from a trash mob.

Defilted

What if they added a on and off switch for champ points instead? This way you can increase the difficulty of mobs without impacting anyone else.

Currently you can just zero them but I always read comments stating it is to much of a hassle.

mairwen85

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/475166/zos-please-add-the-following-to-the-crown-store

cpuScientist

Know what would fix it for me? A working blastbones, damage currently bugged any news? @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Rex-Umbra

Been asking for this since 1t.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Step 1 - remove your champion points

Step 2 if step 1 wasn’t good enough - take off your armor

Step 3 if all else fails - go without a weapon

Nothing is stopping you from increasing the difficulty of your own game.

ZeroXFF

"Play naked"
Figuring out a good build and adjusting it to the encounter is half the game. If taking off gear was a real solution, we wouldn't need veteran content at all. Just go do normal dungeons naked.

"It's all about rewards"
The rewards HAVE to be better, because killing a mob takes longer and the chance of failure is higher, as well as the repair cost. For people at high difficulty to be able to level and get drops at the same rate as those playing at lower difficulty, the rewards per mob have to be higher.

Now ideally the reward quality would go up slightly faster than the time requirement of the higher difficulty so that there is some incentive for people to try and improve. This is as much for the veteran players as it is for new players to have something to strive for.

People who want to just play the story would continue as they do now. The people complaining about the rewards sound more like the whiny ones who are envious of people getting more stuff for doing more work.

"Hardcore players will cry about lowbies taking away their loot"
This is easily solvable. Instead of scaling down the rewards, scale the difficulty for everyone who joins an encounter to the difficulty of the person who started it. What I suggested is a concept, not a final implementation.

"It will cause more lag"
The server can handle one extra division and multiplication per character. The performance of an average modern CPU is in the neighborhood of 50-100 Gigaflops (i.e. 50-100 billion). 2 extra floating point operations in the damage formula won't even be noticed. Same goes for the extra math on the client. CPs add a lot more math than that. It would be the same as the debuff in PvP. The client side stuff can even run in the UI thread, resulting in literally 0 client side loss of performance.

As for the extra internet traffic, with an unoptimized implementation it's 1 integer upload when you change the setting and 1 integer download per NPC when it spawns, gets in visual range or is attacked. This isn't much either. The non-combat pet you got out causes more traffic.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

ZeroXFF wrote: »

"Play naked"
Figuring out a good build and adjusting it to the encounter is half the game. If taking off gear was a real solution, we wouldn't need veteran content at all. Just go do normal dungeons naked.

"It's all about rewards"
The rewards HAVE to be better, because killing a mob takes longer and the chance of failure is higher, as well as the repair cost. For people at high difficulty to be able to level and get drops at the same rate as those playing at lower difficulty, the rewards per mob have to be higher.

Now ideally the reward quality would go up slightly faster than the time requirement of the higher difficulty so that there is some incentive for people to try and improve. This is as much for the veteran players as it is for new players to have something to strive for.

People who want to just play the story would continue as they do now. The people complaining about the rewards sound more like the whiny ones who are envious of people getting more stuff for doing more work.

"Hardcore players will cry about lowbies taking away their loot"
This is easily solvable. Instead of scaling down the rewards, scale the difficulty for everyone who joins an encounter to the difficulty of the person who started it. What I suggested is a concept, not a final implementation.

"It will cause more lag"
The server can handle one extra division and multiplication per character. The performance of an average modern CPU is in the neighborhood of 50-100 Gigaflops (i.e. 50-100 billion). 2 extra floating point operations in the damage formula won't even be noticed. Same goes for the extra math on the client. CPs add a lot more math than that. It would be the same as the debuff in PvP. The client side stuff can even run in the UI thread, resulting in literally 0 client side loss of performance.

As for the extra internet traffic, with an unoptimized implementation it's 1 integer upload when you change the setting and 1 integer download per NPC when it spawns, gets in visual range or is attacked. This isn't much either. The non-combat pet you got out causes more traffic.

In response to your “play naked” point. So let me get this right ... you’ve figured out a “good build” that can smash through overland PVE already, that is capable of doing vet content, yet then you state that it’s not a real solution because then why have veteran content?

Solution ... put your armor back on for the vet content.

My solution requires zero changes from ZOS, doesn’t adversely effect new players, and brings you the challenge you want.

Your “solution” (to a “problem” that isn’t really a problem for a lot of people) is something that would likely require hundreds of hours of coding, probably millions of dollars and would have a massive (and likely adverse) effect on both current and new players.

Just take off your armor and go try to solo a world boss. If your armor was the main reason you could do this before then ... pro tip ... you’re not as good at ESO as you think you are.

shadowwraith666

Overland is layered enough as it is (quest effected areas like Davon's watch beach area, Vivecs antlers, Camlorn etc) without adding an additional difficulty layer on top, instanced areas like trials, dungeons and delves would be easier to adjust since they are segregated from the main game world.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Based on how the game engine calculates everything this would cause so much lag.

For those who think it’s too hard:

Why does stuff have to be easy? I get that not everything has to be some insanely challenging task, but what’s wrong with a little practice and theory crafting a build that essentially “makes things easier” for you?

I and many other put time and effort into becoming good at the game to be able to do hard content, no reason the bar should be lowered because people are lazy. This isn’t CoD. You aren’t meant to just start off all powerful and equal to everyone. The whole part of an RPG is to feel more powerful as you progress. If I’m level one and can run through the zone and destroy everything with ease (which honestly pretty much everyone can), making content easier would make this game absolutely pointless.

Regarding those who think it’s too easy:

I’d agree to a point. Overland and most content is very easy. HM dungeons, trials, and the like can still be somewhat challenging. Then again there are definitely better players than I who breeze through these things. But even then, you’ve earned it. Even in the hardest content these players aren’t just spamming one skill and running in circles. It’s easy for them but they are doing complex things because they’ve practiced. If anything they should add random mechanics to these hard modes that make the fights more dynamic and cause you to really pay attention. Instead of mechanic A-B-C it could be like A-B2-C4. (Those being a random variation that COULD happen).

Outside of the end game stuff though, zero reason to make overland easier.

jainiadral

Defilted wrote: »

What if they added a on and off switch for champ points instead? This way you can increase the difficulty of mobs without impacting anyone else.

Currently you can just zero them but I always read comments stating it is to much of a hassle.

It's 3000 gold each time you make changes, plus you lose great QOL perks like quick harvesting, repair discounts, and chest loot upgrades. And hitting the minus button a kajillion times would be a pain.

A toggle would be a great idea if it removed the stat bonus while leaving the perks in place and the point allocation the same.

Kel

If overland content was to get a higher difficulty, the only reward should be a slight increase in gold to offset repair costs.

Other than that, the argument goes out the window for me when you talk about higher or better rewards.

I thought the reward was the challenge.
You can already get purple drops from zone rewards. If you're asking for gold drops, that's absolutely ridiculous, and wouldn't only upend gear drop balance, but would have adverse effects on the economy...gold mat prices would sink and the market would be flooded with gold gear from world drops.

No..the reward is the greater challenge you seek. Full stop.

karekiz

Kel wrote: »

I thought the reward was the challenge.

No..the reward is the greater challenge you seek. Full stop.

This is flat out false though in reality of player attention. Make something really hard with no reward players will probably do it once and head out. Thats generally why motifs at a carrot for HM DLC clears. Otherwise people would just never hit it.

Kel

karekiz wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

I thought the reward was the challenge.

No..the reward is the greater challenge you seek. Full stop.

This is flat out false though in reality of player attention. Make something really hard with no reward players will probably do it once and head out. Thats generally why motifs at a carrot for HM DLC clears. Otherwise people would just never hit it.

There is a reward. Slightly higher gold to offset repair cost and not being bored in overland content.

Otherwise, the system is just fine, and this entire idea isn't about challenges at all, it's about rewards.

You want challenging overland content that doesn't put you to sleep, that's fine. You want an increase in rewards, it turns into an ulterior motive.

Edit: This is also why I feel safe saying this will never happen. Far too much work for just a handful of players that would use the feature.

It's not just a matter of reworking difficulty, they would have to rework entire reward systems including gear drops.

Not gonna happen.

Sevn

karekiz wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

I thought the reward was the challenge.

No..the reward is the greater challenge you seek. Full stop.

This is flat out false though in reality of player attention. Make something really hard with no reward players will probably do it once and head out. Thats generally why motifs at a carrot for HM DLC clears. Otherwise people would just never hit it.

As soon as a player states they need any other incentive then it's clearly not about challenge. As soon as they get upset at others who would have no issue with this optional switch provided no other rewards were given and call them jealous it's even clearer it's not about challenge but a way to separate themselves from the masses.

I routinely use lower tier gear, sub optimal builds and a variety of different handicaps to challenge myself with no other incentive other than trying to test my limits. No way in hell I want the devs to spend a single dime or minute doing something anyone who is really just trying to challenge themselves can do. Nope.

max_only

No you shouldn’t get better rewards. The challenge is the reward. What will happen is a bunch of people looking to be carried through hard mode overland for the drops just like they want carries through hard mode instance content.

No. If you want to have hard mode overland you get the same Rubedite Axe of Frost and 12g like the rest of us.

Imryll wrote: »

I actually feel a little sympathy for folks who find content too easy--and they always squander it by not just asking for extra programming to suit their tastes, but also asking for bonus rewards.

Chadak wrote: »

Imryll wrote: »

I actually feel a little sympathy for folks who find content too easy--and they always squander it by not just asking for extra programming to suit their tastes, but also asking for bonus rewards.

Kinda makes it seem like what they're really after is extra rewards.

It’s obvious.

MartiniDaniels

Sevn wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

I thought the reward was the challenge.

No..the reward is the greater challenge you seek. Full stop.

This is flat out false though in reality of player attention. Make something really hard with no reward players will probably do it once and head out. Thats generally why motifs at a carrot for HM DLC clears. Otherwise people would just never hit it.

As soon as a player states they need any other incentive then it's clearly not about challenge. As soon as they get upset at others who would have no issue with this optional switch provided no other rewards were given and call them jealous it's even clearer it's not about challenge but a way to separate themselves from the masses.

I routinely use lower tier gear, sub optimal builds and a variety of different handicaps to challenge myself with no other incentive other than trying to test my limits. No way in hell I want the devs to spend a single dime or minute doing something anyone who is really just trying to challenge themselves can do. Nope.

If we speak about overland it's not about challenge, it's about actual RPG gameplay (like Skyrim, Witcher, Dragon Age etc), which ESO completely lacks. But ok, you may say that overland is for new character without cp160 bis gear and CP. But scaling of all stats between lvl1 and cp160 completely kills this approach. Your new created character, even without CP is so powerful due that scaling, that on your way to lvl50/cp160 you are not developing your character, your gear and stats became weaker with each level up and all you do is just renewing your gear so killing of mobs won't take eternity while they can't do any notable damage to you anyway even if you will go around in gear outdated for 20 levels.
I played dozens of RPG during my life and NEVER I saw anything so hilarious as implemented in one tamriel. ESO overland is not RPG, it is just some kind of luna park for people who want to walk around invincible, gathering flowers and listening to dialogs. And I'm not saying this is bad, but ZOS should've place this information in first line in their store and steam - from the very beginning you are immortal vestige who travels in open world without any meaningful combat and progression and actual RPG gameplay exists only in closed spaces like group instances and arenas.

Zardayne

The easiest way to do it is to add a difficulty choice to delves and group delves. Leave overland as it is for the players who like to pick berries and enjoy storytime. Adding difficulty choices to the delves and such would give experiencd players a way to enjoy the old world and added new pve content more yet still keep all players together in the overland so it still feels populated (unlike the old vet zones). If a player ramps up the difficulty in delves, the rewards should match the challenges. This could also encourage more players to team up with a friend and try to tackle the harder difficulties. I joined ESO with 3 other friends upon PC release and after the first week, not one of us grouped together for overland pve. Other than Dosha, it was pretty damn easy. That was before CPs were even in the game. Now there's only two of us left (well one soon as I've about had it) and with new expansions we still have no reason to join together to enjoy the content. Sure we can run the same dungeons over and over again but you can only do that so many times. Give us vets a reason to buy the new expansions and enjoy the content too without hurting the newer folks. I think choices of delve/instance difficulty is the only way.

ZeroXFF

Kel wrote: »

If overland content was to get a higher difficulty, the only reward should be a slight increase in gold to offset repair costs.

Other than that, the argument goes out the window for me when you talk about higher or better rewards.

I thought the reward was the challenge.
You can already get purple drops from zone rewards. If you're asking for gold drops, that's absolutely ridiculous, and wouldn't only upend gear drop balance, but would have adverse effects on the economy...gold mat prices would sink and the market would be flooded with gold gear from world drops.

No..the reward is the greater challenge you seek. Full stop.

I never said anything about drops that are inaccessible to people at lower difficulty settings. I spoke of higher chance of drops that are already accessible. And "higher chance" doesn't mean every mob drops a purple set piece either.

It's super annoying when people take a sensible suggestion, take it to an extreme and pretend like that's what I'm suggesting. That's a strawman, and with it you will only convince people who already agree with you, everyone else will just be annoyed with your dishonesty.

All I'm suggesting is that it's scaled in such a way that ALL the rewards of playing at a lower difficulty are given at the same rate in terms of time investment to people at higher difficulty, with possibly a slight extra (say 20-30% faster at maximum difficulty) to give new players a reason to challenge themselves and prevent pros from just pulling an entire public dungeon and killing everything in 5 seconds with a single destro ulti for exactly the same result as someone who spent an hour in there because every regular mob hits like a raid boss and has 1M+ HP.

Saying the reward should be the same for minimum and maximum difficulty is the same as saying that vCR+3 should give the exact same reward as nFG1. It's ridiculous considering the difference in effort and time investment. And if you don't think that it's unfair to have different rewards in vCR+3 and nFG1, then why is it unfair to have the same rewards, but make the bosses drop 3 instead of 1 set piece and be more likely in purple, with trash mobs having a 5% (for example, don't f****** freak out about the specific numbers) chance of dropping set pieces instead of 1%, and having a 30% chance of dropping a potion instead of 5%? If the rewards are exactly the same for 20x the time investment, people will just keep pulling everything and killing it with a single destro ulti, and new players will remain clueless about the game until they reach DLC vet content, because it never made any sense to increase difficulty, and they just light attacked all the way there.

And the people who complain about the "evil 810s" who just go to some place, obliterate everything, and prevent you from "enjoying your RP experience", will keep complaining, because unless there is a reason to increase difficulty, people who just go in to farm some gear will continue doing exactly the same thing.

TL;DR: The rewards should be the same. But drops per mob increased to match the increase in time investment, or possibly a little more so that people have a reason to strive to be better at the game, and be better prepared for what comes when they set foot in vet dungeons.

idk

Uviryth wrote: »

Star Wars the old Republic does it perfectly. You can choose between Normal (for Beginners), Veteran (for Advanced) and Expert (For Masochists or Groups) for all Overlandcontent.

You are comparing apples to oranges here. SWTOR only does that for quests that occur in instances like the monthly chapter design they have done twice. I do not think they made that retroactive and it certainly does not affect open world. Open world is most of the questing in ESO.

Narvuntien

The simplest is just the option for No CP Questing

Chilly-McFreeze

Tandor wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Solution for overland difficulty that will suit everyone: Use CP150 white gear and go solo a world boss

There, you can waste time on that while the rest of us play the game in peace as it was designed all without wasting dev time on a pointless request.

Or, you know, actually make this game enjoyable for longtime players outside of PvP or trials. What are all those new zones and questlines worth to them if they can steamroll it with eyes closed? But I know, if it isn't important to you it's a waste of dev time. Got it.

Whereas if it's important to you it's a worthwhile use of dev time. Got it.

Well, tell me: do you enjoy questing on your leveled characters? Does it feel great to kill the boss at the climax of a long questline in under 10 seconds? Are you looking forward to new DLC zones and say "yay, that will be such a great experience playing!"?

I, and some other, don't. It feels more like reading a book with some facerolling the keyboard between it. It's a letdown to the point I have to force myself to go questing again. We've been through this so many times. Yes, it's great that absolute beginners can jump into the lates expansion and still don't run into a wall. But with all the focus on newcommers, the older players might feel a bit neglected. Don't you think?

E: and no, vetTrials aren't a great compensation. It's about experiencing the carefully thought out story. A main selling point of many DLCs. And yes, I've intentionally gimped my build. Doesn't help when the next best level 13 char does a drive by at that story boss. Severely disappointing.

MikaHR

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

I thought the reward was the challenge.

No..the reward is the greater challenge you seek. Full stop.

This is flat out false though in reality of player attention. Make something really hard with no reward players will probably do it once and head out. Thats generally why motifs at a carrot for HM DLC clears. Otherwise people would just never hit it.

As soon as a player states they need any other incentive then it's clearly not about challenge. As soon as they get upset at others who would have no issue with this optional switch provided no other rewards were given and call them jealous it's even clearer it's not about challenge but a way to separate themselves from the masses.

I routinely use lower tier gear, sub optimal builds and a variety of different handicaps to challenge myself with no other incentive other than trying to test my limits. No way in hell I want the devs to spend a single dime or minute doing something anyone who is really just trying to challenge themselves can do. Nope.

If we speak about overland it's not about challenge, it's about actual RPG gameplay (like Skyrim, Witcher, Dragon Age etc), which ESO completely lacks. But ok, you may say that overland is for new character without cp160 bis gear and CP. But scaling of all stats between lvl1 and cp160 completely kills this approach. Your new created character, even without CP is so powerful due that scaling, that on your way to lvl50/cp160 you are not developing your character, your gear and stats became weaker with each level up and all you do is just renewing your gear so killing of mobs won't take eternity while they can't do any notable damage to you anyway even if you will go around in gear outdated for 20 levels.
I played dozens of RPG during my life and NEVER I saw anything so hilarious as implemented in one tamriel. ESO overland is not RPG, it is just some kind of luna park for people who want to walk around invincible, gathering flowers and listening to dialogs. And I'm not saying this is bad, but ZOS should've place this information in first line in their store and steam - from the very beginning you are immortal vestige who travels in open world without any meaningful combat and progression and actual RPG gameplay exists only in closed spaces like group instances and arenas.

Wow, so much nonsensical dribble.

EVERY MMO has been complete RPG gamepaly nonsense. Wolf in zone A will rip you appart in one hit while same wolf in zone B wont even be able to hit you and you will one shot it. Just because of some randomly arbitrarily assigned numbers called "levels". And you can substitute "wolf" with pretty much any other monster you encounter.

Its an utter an complete RPG nonsense and makes the world completely unbelievable, nonsensical and laughable from RPG perspective, One Tamriel is the ONLY way there can be any RPG gameplay in an online game (or any game for that matter)

And if you think that CP810 character with top gear is not more powerful than lvl 1 character....well....i suggest you actually play the game, and, from RPG perspective One Tamriel IS fully in RPG compliance and wolf is a wolf is a wolf and random cultist is a random cultist is a random cultist wherever you go and that is THE only ACTUAL RPG gameplay instead complete nonsense in MMOs.

"RPG gameplay" in "closed spaces" is THE least RPG gameplay in ESO, farming same boss over and over again to get "random" drop is as nonsensical as it gets from RPG standpoint.

It seems you havent played ANY RPGs, all you played are action games without a shred on RPG in them.

Guess what: in D&D goblin is a goblin, lvl 1-2 creature all over the world and when you get to high enough level you oneshot them and they cant hurt you...because they are goblins, lvl 1-2 creatures in the whole world. Same with random wolves, boars and whatever you can imagine. THAT is RPG gameplay and believable gameworld.

And yes, when you kill something it STAYS dead (unless resurrected as some undead). THAT is RPG gameplay.

Getting one shotted by random skellington just because you stepped over "zone line"...(Stonefalls -> Rift)....yeah its anti RPG as it gets.

Why are dark elves and spirits lvl 10 wusses (and most powerful Dark Elves nonetheless) just because they happened to reside in Stonefalls while some random lvl45 nord in RIft can wipe out whole Stonefalls by himself without breaking a sweat just because he happend to be found in Rift? That was kind of nonsense we had at launch. Not to mention complete nonsense of "VET areas" and "killer Craglorn bees".

Jeremy

Cortimi wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Solution for overland difficulty that will suit everyone: Use CP150 white gear and go solo a world boss

There, you can waste time on that while the rest of us play the game in peace as it was designed all without wasting dev time on a pointless request.

Exactly. People can already adjust the difficulty by wearing crappier gear.

If you have to purposely make yourself suck more for a game to offer you enough challenge to be fun then there is a problem.

No offense meant - but this idea that players should just remove all their CP and wear crappy gear to make the game more challenging is absurd. That's one of the most ridiculous solutions to a problem I have ever read on any forum anywhere.