Zos has taken steps to even out strength and utility on abilities except for SnB

GeorgeBlack · May 2019

Stx wrote: »

S/b is fine. It has already been nerfed many times. All its abilities deal less damage than other weapons. It has no dots, no heals, no major brutality/savagery, and reverb has a high cost and low damage.

It has decent single target direct damage and some good utility, and that's fine.

DW flurry... was not being used...
2h Swing.... was not being used...

La/ransack/Bash.. yep.

Darkenarlol · May 2019

this guy is like

- oh i can't kill someone with s&b but

i don't want to play with this weapon myself

so let's call it OP and cry for nerfs

another potato thread and definitely an l2P issue

GeorgeBlack · May 2019

Darkenarlol wrote: »

this guy is like

- oh i can't kill someone with s&b but

i don't want to play with this weapon myself

so let's call it OP and cry for nerfs

another potato thread and definitely an l2P issue

Says you m8.
If you cant accept that a shield weapon should not provide aggression and buffs/debuffs on top of great defence then you got another problem with my topic.
Stay on the facts dont attack the writer. Otherwise you got no real arguements.

SnB will be nerfed in a few years just like DW got buffed over the years.

Go see my posts regarding Hidden Dagger and major brut duration, flurry animation and morphs before dark brotherhood and now Whirling Blades.

In addition my topics on heavy armor before DB

Zekka · May 2019

I'm fine with a s&b damage nerf if it finally forces ZOS to give some stamina damage morphs to stamsorcs and stamdks.
But I don't really see what makes it OP though.

GeorgeBlack · May 2019

Zekka wrote: »

I'm fine with a s&b damage nerf if it finally forces ZOS to give some stamina damage morphs to stamsorcs and stamdks.
But I don't really see what makes it OP though.

Zos failing to give ID to stamsorc and stamDK should not be a reason why SnB and DB needs to remain OP.

Drako_Ei · May 2019

If you nerf SnB because of PvP one more time a lot of people including me will give up on the tank role, good luck with the dungeon queue times

mague · May 2019

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

SnB enables all stamina Classes to perform better against any other stamina weapon combinations and it needs to be looked at after 5 years.
This is coming from a stamDK.

You forgot to mention that S&B on its own is not the problem. But combined with, for example, Venomous Claw a S&B build can be devasting.

Tommy_The_Gun · May 2019

Can we pls stop nerfing PvE taking because of broken PvP ? It is another nerf thread to tanking... I mean look at NB pve tanking and how awesom it is now. I mean look what nerf thread like this have done to it.
It is close to imposible now to be an effective PvE vet Tank as a NB. Not to even mention of vet DLC content.

Vapirko · May 2019

I’m amazed that SB is the next big nerf topic.

satanio · May 2019

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Zekka wrote: »

I'm fine with a s&b damage nerf if it finally forces ZOS to give some stamina damage morphs to stamsorcs and stamdks.
But I don't really see what makes it OP though.

Zos failing to give ID to stamsorc and stamDK should not be a reason why SnB and DB needs to remain OP.

Remain OP where? Your statements try to look like general facts, but you fail to adress other aspects of the game. Its not OP in pve, definitely not op in overland PvE , used as utility weapon in non-cp pvp. I guess its absurd only in CP pvp, but be realistic, what isnt there?

GeorgeBlack · May 2019

The PvE comments are not well though

Derra · May 2019

idk wrote: »

This for sure, but TBF, OP is just complaining. They offer no thoughts other than they think S&B is to strong.

S&B is too strong when comparing it to any other weapon line.
Alternatively every other weapon line is too weak.

If you look at stamina builds in dueling or high end competetive builds for open world cyrodiil 80% of those will equip sword and board (the ones that don´t are NBs) - as their offensive weapon choice. Not as a utility/defensive bar.

It´s not like there aren´t any alternatives. It´s just that sword and board is better than the alternatives by combining comparable or better offensive power (depending on opponent) with defense capabilities miles ahead of any other weapon line.

idk · May 2019

Derra wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This for sure, but TBF, OP is just complaining. They offer no thoughts other than they think S&B is to strong.

S&B is too strong when comparing it to any other weapon line.
Alternatively every other weapon line is too weak.

If you look at stamina builds in dueling or high end competetive builds for open world cyrodiil 80% of those will equip sword and board (the ones that don´t are NBs) - as their offensive weapon choice. Not as a utility/defensive bar.

It´s not like there aren´t any alternatives. It´s just that sword and board is better than the alternatives by combining comparable or better offensive power (depending on opponent) with defense capabilities miles ahead of any other weapon line.

This has nothing to do with what I said. Totally irrelevant. Though your claim that 80% of open world Cyrodiil stam builds equip S&B is interesting. You are actually saying that every stam build but NBs use S&B and that seems to be a little to over the top to be accurate. I would like to see how you can back up such an audacious number.

Zekka · May 2019

Derra wrote: »

If you look at stamina builds in dueling or high end competetive builds for open world cyrodiil 80% of those will equip sword and board (the ones that don´t are NBs)

There you go, you hit the nail on the head: the one class with a complete stamina kit doesn't feel forced into s&b.
The other class with a decent stamina kit, stamplar, also uses a 2h on their offensive bar.

Derra · May 2019

idk wrote: »

This has nothing to do with what I said. Totally irrelevant. Though your claim that 80% of open world Cyrodiil stam builds equip S&B is interesting. You are actually saying that every stam build but NBs use S&B and that seems to be a little to over the top to be accurate. I would like to see how you can back up such an audacious number.

If you carefully read what i wrote you might find that i didn´t write that - ofc you know that because you´re making a strawman argument.

For the sake of it i´ll repeat myself and try to be even more specific:

If you look at good and successful players piloting stam builds in cyrodiil (solo or small grp) or dueling on PC EU (of those i happen to know many by playing countless hours) there are virtually none that do not utilize sword and board.
On top of my head i can´t think of anyone that is not a NB.

In other words: There are, to my knowledge, no high end competetive stamina builds (dueling or cyro smallscale) that don´t utilize sword and board (excluding nbs - Edit: and even for NBs it usually means putting s&b on a build will make it perform better against a single opponent).

GeorgeBlack · May 2019

Even stamNB will turn to SnB now.
Everybody can rely on SnB to carry them through hard times. It's has all the tools and fills all gaps.

Anyway dont take my word for it. Take it from the 1mil tournament competitors.

satanio · May 2019

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Even stamNB will turn to SnB now.
Everybody can rely on SnB to carry them through hard times. It's has all the tools and fills all gaps.

Anyway dont take my word for it. Take it from the 1mil tournament competitors.

So now we’re tking out big guns arent we?
What does @Liofa or @Woeler think?

olsborg · May 2019

Wing wrote: »

it has

no bleed
no dot
no aoe
no execute
and no high damage spamable (pierce armor can be used as a spamable, but not on the level of uppercut, snipe, etc)
and receives half benefit from enchants

the WHOLE POINT of the line is utility, you give up every kind of relevant damage in the game FOR that utility, that's the point.

PS: listing "snare" as a utility is dumb, almost every darn skill in this game applies a "snare" its something we are all quite annoyed about.

The point of the OP: By the time you have loaded up and hit someone with a wrecking blow(wich is hard to hit ppl with anyway) you would have heroic slashed and animation canceled with bash and reverbed them too wich together would have dealt more dmg, more selfbuff and more debuff to target.

Ragnaroek93 · May 2019

I'd rather see some SOFTcounters to blockhealing and buffing other skill lines instead of flat nerfs. Game has seen enough nerfs.

Lughlongarm · May 2019

While I find the OP statement as being true, SnB got some weaknesses as well. The glyph nerf for 1H is one thing and also SnB got mostly very PVE oriented weapon sets, so you cannot really take advantage of back bar weapon set. It is true however, that power bash should be changed for several reasons.

SnB got 2 stun skills which is something ZOS stated they are generally trying to change(similar effects on same trait-line)
Now that gap closers can be used as a spammable there is no reasoning for 2 stun skills.

Power Bash could perhaps be changed to "off-balance", or interrupt. The combo of stun+major defile is at the same toxic level of combining stun+big burst damage skill(something ZOS mostly got rid of for base skills).

This actually will also give reason to use shield charge, ,one of the most neglected skills in the game.

Rikumaru · May 2019

1h 1s has always been strong but at least it always felt fair to fight against. Meanwhile you have cheese bleed builds which feel completely BS to fight against. Also lol at the people who talk about how 1h 1s builds are OP in duels. Yeah as if the game was balanced around duels *cough cough meridia's blessed armor*.

Nerftheforums · May 2019

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I'd rather see some SOFTcounters to blockhealing and buffing other skill lines instead of flat nerfs. Game has seen enough nerfs.

Nerfs are good, whatchu mean. 5 years in and I saw more nerfs than npcs, so good.

Toc de Malsvi · May 2019

Derra wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This has nothing to do with what I said. Totally irrelevant. Though your claim that 80% of open world Cyrodiil stam builds equip S&B is interesting. You are actually saying that every stam build but NBs use S&B and that seems to be a little to over the top to be accurate. I would like to see how you can back up such an audacious number.

If you carefully read what i wrote you might find that i didn´t write that - ofc you know that because you´re making a strawman argument.

For the sake of it i´ll repeat myself and try to be even more specific:

If you look at good and successful players piloting stam builds in cyrodiil (solo or small grp) or dueling on PC EU (of those i happen to know many by playing countless hours) there are virtually none that do not utilize sword and board.
On top of my head i can´t think of anyone that is not a NB.

In other words: There are, to my knowledge, no high end competetive stamina builds (dueling or cyro smallscale) that don´t utilize sword and board (excluding nbs - Edit: and even for NBs it usually means putting s&b on a build will make it perform better against a single opponent).

This has been my experience on the xbox.

killahsin · May 2019

now the players are crying for homogenization between the weapons. isnt that comical. All skills being the same wasnt enough, had to be all classes and now all weapons. Soon all armor and outfits will have to be the same as well, as any benefit of one player looking different is not acceptable. We must have uniformity we must have compliance.

The amount of games that gamers have destroyed over the course of the years with these demands is plentiful.

SilverPaws · May 2019

So funny how many people here complain about snb are players who don't run snb at all

. Sure that 2k heroic slash spam is so hard to survive

Snb runs classes that have no viable alternative - stamdk, stamsorc.
Also both heroic and reverb are expensive abilities on top.

Toc de Malsvi · May 2019

SilverPaws wrote: »

So funny how many people here complain about snb are players who don't run snb at all . Sure that 2k heroic slash spam is so hard to survive
Snb runs classes that have no viable alternative - stamdk, stamsorc.
Also both heroic and reverb are expensive abilities on top.

I know crazy... Its almost like players who are using something don't want it nerfed, even if it is overperforming.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2019

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

SilverPaws wrote: »

So funny how many people here complain about snb are players who don't run snb at all . Sure that 2k heroic slash spam is so hard to survive
Snb runs classes that have no viable alternative - stamdk, stamsorc.
Also both heroic and reverb are expensive abilities on top.

I know crazy... Its almost like players who are using something don't want it nerfed, even if it is overperforming.

I just find people hate Tanks in every game. They want a <.01 second TTK instead of having a long exchange battle. I have to admit I'm not very fond of the less than one second kills and the way people can easily macro this garbage. I'm really tired of hearing about this in these games. There are better ways to balance.

Liofa · May 2019

I think problem is how ZOS treats SnB as a damage weapon. ZOS just needs to make it an actual tanking weapon instead. Just like how Resto Staff is only for healing and no damage at all. SnB should be only for tanking and no damage at all. I would happily take better tanking stats and lose all damage capabilities. Utility is whole another thing though as it's the core of PvE tanking. Major Breach, Major Fracture, Minor Maim, Minor Heroism, block cost reduction and block mitigation should stay. Absurd damage and snare of Heroic Slash, 10% Weapon Damage passive, 100% bash damage increase all need to be reworked into actual tanking bonuses. When you look at someone in PvP being on their Resto bar, you say "ok he's going defensive and gonna heal" but when you look at someone who is on SnB bar, you say "ok he's gonna rek my face". You just know there is a problem when SnB is being used for damage and 2H for buffs and heal.

SilverPaws · May 2019

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

SilverPaws wrote: »

So funny how many people here complain about snb are players who don't run snb at all . Sure that 2k heroic slash spam is so hard to survive
Snb runs classes that have no viable alternative - stamdk, stamsorc.
Also both heroic and reverb are expensive abilities on top.

I know crazy... Its almost like players who are using something don't want it nerfed, even if it is overperforming.

Legendary Archer of Valenwood and bow/bow builds okay

Player like you should not comment on balance at all.

StShoot · May 2019

You could remove some of the debuffs like defile.
The Problem is if you remove minor heroism, minor main or if you nerf the passives tankig would be a nightmare. PvP i understand you, it is realy strong for your defensive bar or as an offensive bar xD

@Liofa
But how would you do that, sure you can reduce the dmg of the active abilitys and raise their defence instead, but that wouldnt prevent pvp players from using sword and bord as buff/debuff backbar. If you buff the passives you would see "overperforming" (in absence of a better word) magplers and magdks who could abuse the stronger passives.