Zos has taken steps to even out strength and utility on abilities except for SnB

GeorgeBlack

SnB provides extreme endurance with it's benefits in regards to blocking.

However SnB is the strongest stamina weapon because it also has tooltips with fairly high direct dmg and extra bash dmg. I contrast DW 2h and Bow do not have spammables that can be animation cancelled as smooth as Low Slash, Puncture, Reverb Bash. This results in SnB being a more agressive weapon than the other 3.

And if you are not convinced that SnB is the best choice for all stamina classes let us see how many tools SnB has in addition to it's defensive superiority and offensive superiority:
Gap closer
CC
Defile
Breach
Fracture
Heroism
Maim
Resolve
Snare

All for low stamina costing abilities and an ulti that should be situational but due to it's low cost (in combination with heroism) provides great mitigation with no drawbacks.


SnB enables all stamina Classes to perform better against any other stamina weapon combinations and it needs to be looked at after 5 years.
This is coming from a stamDK.

The Uninvited

They looked at class skills this patch and said that weapon skills would come next time.

Wing

it has

no bleed
no dot
no aoe
no execute
and no high damage spamable (pierce armor can be used as a spamable, but not on the level of uppercut, snipe, etc)
and receives half benefit from enchants

the WHOLE POINT of the line is utility, you give up every kind of relevant damage in the game FOR that utility, that's the point.

PS: listing "snare" as a utility is dumb, almost every darn skill in this game applies a "snare" its something we are all quite annoyed about.

GeorgeBlack

Wing wrote: »

it has

no bleed
no dot
no aoe
no execute
and no high damage spamable (pierce armor can be used as a spamable, but not on the level of uppercut, snipe, etc)
and receives half benefit from enchants

the WHOLE POINT of the line is utility, you give up every kind of relevant damage in the game FOR that utility, that's the point.

PS: listing "snare" as a utility is dumb.

It offers more pressure and better defence in addition to it's utility. You forgot the main point

Wing

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

it has

no bleed
no dot
no aoe
no execute
and no high damage spamable (pierce armor can be used as a spamable, but not on the level of uppercut, snipe, etc)
and receives half benefit from enchants

the WHOLE POINT of the line is utility, you give up every kind of relevant damage in the game FOR that utility, that's the point.

PS: listing "snare" as a utility is dumb.

It offers more pressure and better defence in addition to it's utility. You forgot the main point

no, it does not.

Qbiken

Wing wrote: »

it has

no bleed
no dot
no aoe
no execute
and no high damage spamable (pierce armor can be used as a spamable, but not on the level of uppercut, snipe, etc)
and receives half benefit from enchants

the WHOLE POINT of the line is utility, you give up every kind of relevant damage in the game FOR that utility, that's the point.

PS: listing "snare" as a utility is dumb, almost every darn skill in this game applies a "snare" its something we are all quite annoyed about.

10k heroic slash in PvP good enough for a spammable?

Kadoin

Qbiken wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

it has

no bleed
no dot
no aoe
no execute
and no high damage spamable (pierce armor can be used as a spamable, but not on the level of uppercut, snipe, etc)
and receives half benefit from enchants

the WHOLE POINT of the line is utility, you give up every kind of relevant damage in the game FOR that utility, that's the point.

PS: listing "snare" as a utility is dumb, almost every darn skill in this game applies a "snare" its something we are all quite annoyed about.

10k heroic slash in PvP good enough for a spammable?

Defenders of SnB in pvp will pretend its not OP until they see every NB running it next patch. They honestly should have been doing it 2 patches ago. I won't be in PvP after Monday, so I can enjoy the laughs on the forums when people realize how OP it is.

satanio

I disagree.

This is coming from DK tank.

IzzyStardust

Wing wrote: »

it has

no bleed
no dot
no aoe
no execute
and no high damage spamable (pierce armor can be used as a spamable, but not on the level of uppercut, snipe, etc)
and receives half benefit from enchants

the WHOLE POINT of the line is utility, you give up every kind of relevant damage in the game FOR that utility, that's the point.

PS: listing "snare" as a utility is dumb, almost every darn skill in this game applies a "snare" its something we are all quite annoyed about.

THIS. And also JUST STOP.

Seriously.

So you cannot kill one guy. They cannot kill you either so jog on.

Aedaryl

Wing wrote: »

it has

no bleed
no dot
no aoe
no execute
and no high damage spamable (pierce armor can be used as a spamable, but not on the level of uppercut, snipe, etc)
and receives half benefit from enchants

the WHOLE POINT of the line is utility, you give up every kind of relevant damage in the game FOR that utility, that's the point.

PS: listing "snare" as a utility is dumb, almost every darn skill in this game applies a "snare" its something we are all quite annoyed about.

Extremely biased answer here.

1. "no bleed" The role of bleed is to put pressure. Defile put huge pressure. You also forgot that you can bar swap to an other weapon
2. "no dot" Stam build have either class dot or class burst. Again, you also forget that you can dot from other weapon skill line with a bar swap.
3. "no AoE" Granted, even if it's not the purpose of the weapon
4. "no execute" Every single decent stam build run 2h for rally/FM, the stamina execute can be on 2H.

5. "no high damage spamable" this is the worst. It has been proove several time that S&B spammable deal more damage than uppercut and especially this patch, using LA/ransack/bash deal more damage and is cheaper than using cast time skills like uppercut or snipe.


S&B is op for some reasons :

-You can have a high damage spammable (500 less damage than surpise attack) + having 60% snare + minor heroism + minor main.

-You can also choose ransack for better damage at cheaper cost (bash+ransack+major fracture is better damage than all other spammable for a cheap cost), applying major fractue and giving minor resolve.

-You can combine it with a stun that deal damage and apply MAJOR DEFILE, which is the most powerfull debuff in the game.

-You can slot one of the best defensive ultimate if your class doesn't have one : spell wall.

- By having Huge damage and utility, you also have passively the best defensive weapon in the game, giving better and cheaper block, additional resist and armor trait.

S&B is the best damage weapon for single target in PvP and also the best defensive weapon, both make it the best 1vX and 1v1 weapon in the game.

You can back bar 2h for rally/FM and add execute if needed. You can also use carve next patch for ur lovely bleed.

The fact that S&B is a better single target offensive weapon than every other one while also being the best defensive weapon make it OP. That's simple.

Phaedrathallassa

Is now a bad time to note that they specifically said they were focusing on class skills and the full balancing pass for weapon and guild skills (minus cleave, I guess) was coming in later this year?

I know that unkillable tanks in PvP are a nuisance, but, it is important to keep in mind that they are only that. If you coordinate your burst they are genuinely killable too :P

But also I mostly play PvE tank so I think zos has to be careful here - they've already nerfed PvE tanking again and again to try to address PvP and any further nerfs may make tanking vDLC dungeons straight impossible. Even the best tanks already have to gold out all their gear, full prismatic enchants, and lean on specific kinda OP skills (like wings) to successfully tank things like fang lair hardmode. No other role has to do this, and it's in large part because of the nerfs they've received in the name of PvP balance.

Now if ZOS finally gave up and made things work different in PvP than PvE, or made it so things like leminieds only hit for 3k per tick instead of 5k, imo they can change whatever they want. But taking the snare off heroic strike or nerfing absorb magic could be life and death in PvE.

And I think they *should* make abilities work different. As far as confusing the playerbase - things ALREADY work different in pvp. In pve there are no crits, no impen, no penetration. And this definitely confuses new players. Then you add in battle spirit and cp/no-cp and all the completely different role requirements and pvp is just straight up not the same as pve at all. It wouldn't magically lead to balance but it would make balancing much easier.

Savos_Saren

100% Agree OP. Definitely need to change the SnB passive that gives 5% weapon damage to 2.5% weapon and 2.5% spell damage. It's a nerf... and a buff for some of us.

Minno

Only thing op is that block Mitigation is potentially additive with each other. Otherwise the weapon line is fine. That and heroic needs it's snare dropped.

Girl_Number8

Wing wrote: »

it has

no bleed
no dot
no aoe
no execute
and no high damage spamable (pierce armor can be used as a spamable, but not on the level of uppercut, snipe, etc)
and receives half benefit from enchants

the WHOLE POINT of the line is utility, you give up every kind of relevant damage in the game FOR that utility, that's the point.

PS: listing "snare" as a utility is dumb, almost every darn skill in this game applies a "snare" its something we are all quite annoyed about.

This^

He's on a nerf posting rampage of late, pay him no mind. Certainly has no clue about balance and what this would do over all to the whole game, smh.

ecru

If I were going to "fix" snb, I'd start with completely removing the damage increase on bash. I think this gets overlooked by a lot of people but the bash is what allows snb to apply more pressure than it probably should. I don't really think bash was intended to be 20%+ of someone's damage.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

I contrast DW 2h and Bow do not have spammables that can be animation cancelled as smooth as Low Slash, Puncture, Reverb Bash.

Shrouded daggers?

Strider__Roshin

Reverb needs its Defile removed, heroic needs its snare removed, and the 5% increase to weapon damage needs to go. That would balance it out.

Rex-Umbra

SnB needs magicka morphs and heavy/light attack damage should be from whichever stat is highest.

WrathOfInnos

You should probably add something about PvP in the title or first post. SnB damage is terrible in PvE, and nerfing the skill line would only worsen the tank shortage.

GeorgeBlack

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

You should probably add something about PvP in the title or first post. SnB damage is terrible in PvE, and nerfing the skill line would only worsen the tank shortage.

PvE tanking is all about group utility 5p sets and Defensive posture and Pierce armor. Which of the nerfs would damage SnB pve tanking??

Onefrkncrzypope

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

You should probably add something about PvP in the title or first post. SnB damage is terrible in PvE, and nerfing the skill line would only worsen the tank shortage.

PvE tanking is all about group utility 5p sets and Defensive posture and Pierce armor. Which of the nerfs would damage SnB pve tanking??

Herioc slash, ya'll most likely want every added affect off of it. I wouldn't care if the snare was gone, but the other two are very important to tanking.

idk

The Uninvited wrote: »

They looked at class skills this patch and said that weapon skills would come next time.

Pretty much this.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

You should probably add something about PvP in the title or first post. SnB damage is terrible in PvE, and nerfing the skill line would only worsen the tank shortage.

PvE tanking is all about group utility 5p sets and Defensive posture and Pierce armor. Which of the nerfs would damage SnB pve tanking??

Herioc slash, ya'll most likely want every added affect off of it. I wouldn't care if the snare was gone, but the other two are very important to tanking.

This for sure, but TBF, OP is just complaining. They offer no thoughts other than they think S&B is to strong.

Minno

You can tell who zergs based on the responses lol.

Noise thread; mods shut it down.

GeorgeBlack

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

it has

no bleed
no dot
no aoe
no execute
and no high damage spamable (pierce armor can be used as a spamable, but not on the level of uppercut, snipe, etc)
and receives half benefit from enchants

the WHOLE POINT of the line is utility, you give up every kind of relevant damage in the game FOR that utility, that's the point.

PS: listing "snare" as a utility is dumb, almost every darn skill in this game applies a "snare" its something we are all quite annoyed about.

This^

He's on a nerf posting rampage of late, pay him no mind. Certainly has no clue about balance and what this would do over all to the whole game, smh.

Minno wrote: »

You can tell who zergs based on the responses lol.

Noise thread; mods shut it down.

Arrogance over 9k

Kidgangster101

You ever think that sns is good in pvp because of the armor sets that boost their weapon damage like crazy? 7th legion and fury alone allow for tanky and 6k weapon damage builds so a Nerf to sns is the wrong spot to be looking tbh.

SilverPaws

Another person who wants to nerf something without having any clue about it. Getting tired about clueless players creating nerf threads...

Minno

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

it has

no bleed
no dot
no aoe
no execute
and no high damage spamable (pierce armor can be used as a spamable, but not on the level of uppercut, snipe, etc)
and receives half benefit from enchants

the WHOLE POINT of the line is utility, you give up every kind of relevant damage in the game FOR that utility, that's the point.

PS: listing "snare" as a utility is dumb, almost every darn skill in this game applies a "snare" its something we are all quite annoyed about.

This^

He's on a nerf posting rampage of late, pay him no mind. Certainly has no clue about balance and what this would do over all to the whole game, smh.

Minno wrote: »

You can tell who zergs based on the responses lol.

Noise thread; mods shut it down.

Arrogance over 9k

Well maybe. Or maybe it's because only two things need slight adjustment and they need to focus on making block based mitigation sources back to being multiplicative with each other instead of additive. But what do I know, I just play here.

Stx

S/b is fine. It has already been nerfed many times. All its abilities deal less damage than other weapons. It has no dots, no heals, no major brutality/savagery, and reverb has a high cost and low damage.

It has decent single target direct damage and some good utility, and that's fine.

evoniee

rmb+lmb bash damage and cost shoud be reduced, also slash need snare removed, reverb defile reduced by 1s, weapon damage passive changed to physical and spell resistance

Rygonix

Minno wrote: »

Noise thread; mods shut it down.

Mods will moderate/shutdown threads if and when they feel like it. Until you are given a PR position at ZoS you will just have to live with those on the payroll making that decision for you.

Sleep724

Sure, let’s continue to push all stamina classes into DW/2h while they still run fury/7th and continue to burst you down. Again, no heal, no bleed, short range 4 second only defile, low damage spammable, no snare removal, no aoe mitigation, single target only damage. Not to mention the stamina drain on bash weaving.

Maybe if you post clips of these players who are beating you with s/b we can offer tips on fighting back.