Hate for PvP

NeillMcAttack · May 2019

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

What disappoints me the most though, with the ESO anti-PvP crowd. Is the fact that the vocally fearful here cost us the second part of the justice system. Bounty hunter and rogue justice gameplay systems could have been great. But the “I don’t want PvP in my PvE”, and *** what you want crowd. Were again vehement in their displeasure.

It’s not even that- it’s the fact that it can easily be exploited by the lowest scum and most really don’t an open world PvP zone, plain and simple

No one can really comment on exploiting a system that doesn't exist to be fair. And it's implementation could have simply included a system of sign-up for bounty hunter or rogue status. Leaving a lack of sign up meaning stuff stays exactly as it is.

Krec · May 2019

Ildun wrote: »

For me, It's not about PVP gameplay or PVP player, but the fact that PVE players who don't want to join battle at all are forced to go to PVP zone.

You are no being forced, period. You have a choice to do or not. Same as anyone for any of the content. If I want some great end game gear then I may have to do trials or dungeons or whatever to get it. The choice is mine alone as to whether I do those activities to get what I want.

Kiralyn2000 · May 2019

I dislike PvP. Not just in this game, but in general.

Yes, I've pvp'd in the past (back in the early WoW days, I ground up to... Centurion? rank in battlegrounds, and I wandered through a few overworld zergs; I gave a try or two to PvP matches in Neverwinter & Secret World Legends; I stepped into the Dark Zone in The Division a few times. Waaaay back, I played a bit of CTF & deathmatch in Unreal Tournament, Quake 1&2, Counterstrike; Starcraft; etc)

I now avoid PvP like the plague that it is. I big part of that is PvPer's. Not all of them, but enough of them to poison the pool, are hypercompetitive, roidrager, griefer, bully, toxic, amateur sociopath, awful people. The types who see everything (a fight, a forum thread, a discussion, just breathing air) as a competition that they must beat everyone else at. I want nothing to do with them, their attitudes, their "trash talk", their "teabagging", etc.

Meanwhile, in MMOs, there's the additional "bonus" of PvE classes/abilities/gear/etc getting screwed over because of the laughable (and futile) attempts to "balance" PvP. Which is another source of dislike for PvP.

So, no. I'm not playing PvP in this game. I'm not playing Fortnite, or Overwatch, or Starcraft, or CoD... none of it. No desire at all to subject myself to the PvP community.

/shrug

(And yes, there's toxic, over-competitive people in PvE as well. Especially in this game, since they added "leaderboards" to make even dungeons & trials in a competition. But in PvP, it's built in to the central concepts of the genre. It's a "core feature".)

Krec · May 2019

Mago wrote: »

I hate pvp but I do the daily to get the 100k exp.
Forcing players into pvp is not the way in my opinion.

Would it be better if ESO just gave you the 100k exp and everything else you may want? Again you are not being forced

Sagz · May 2019

The funny thing is, the OP is right, what is the risk? So what, you die, try again you lose nothing. I remember back in the day, your corpse could be looted (whether you died in PVE or PVP) and you lose your gear, unless you successfully ran back and relooted your body before someone else did. Now that was fun, entertaining, and make you deal with risk/reward. Nowadays....eh just try again. Why get mad?

I think 90% of the eso player could not handle that emotionally.

xF1REFL1x · May 2019

People get into ESO for their own reasons. I play PvE... but that doesn't mean I hate PvP... not sure where you are getting this. I've tried PvP... it's fine... but I got into this for the PvE. I wouldn't group PvE players in one box either... their really isn't much fear of dying as some are putting it... just a preference of what style you prefer. It's never bothered me getting killed in PvE or PvP... that's part of the game... and most games. To each your own...

HalvarIronfist · May 2019

MrBumblefoot wrote: »

I don't understand the PvE players' hate for PvP. I don't see any PvP players hating PvE much but everytime I visit the forums and read some discussions, I always see PvE players spitting hate for PvP. I don't really understand the reason, as a both PvE and PvP player. I get it, some people might not like PvE or PvP but so many people hating PvP, why? Does it hurt more if you get killed by a player instead of a boss? It doesn't even degrade armor... I don't understand why some people are so afraid of the concept of getting killed by another player.

In my opinion, getting killed by predictable AI is more insulting than getting killed by an actual human. Those PvE players are fine with wiping over and over again by a dungeon/trial boss but they lose their minds when it comes to getting killed by another player. Hello, they're the same thing! You just respawn and try again... I just came here because I've seen some people not doing the amazing Imperial City questline just because of the risk of getting killed by enemy players. I just can't get my head around it, getting killed by a player is no different than getting killed by AI (actually it's less punishing) and also (this part is solely my opinion) I think PvP is more fun because fighting against enemies that actually fight back is more fun. I love both PvE and PvP but I think PvP is more fun, actually the only PvE content that can compete with PvP is the Maelstrom Arena. However I'm not telling anyone that they should start doing PvP. I just explained why I love it and I want to know why some hate it. Hating it with a passion is just not understandable for me.

As someone who went from PVE into PVP, and now happily does both, the biggest problem for me is going into it fresh, you have 0 clue as to whats going on. Then you might try an 'easy build', start cheesing your way through, realize you're having fun, and then starting to make other characters and try other playstyles. The hardest part of that transfer is to cope with the fact that you're not God any longer, like PvE content glorifies you. You can't delete a robot, you have to delete a real human playing on the other end trying to do the same to you.

Therefore, more competitive, less 'sheltered' gameplay, which will reward the more skilled, and geared players. This is why i reccomend for anyone new to PVP to simply make a new character, and start using it in low level PVP, just to get the hang of it.

Krec · May 2019

Seems to me it is fear of unknown and an almost completely different gameplay that is unfamiliar to most. No real rotations, no two encounters are the same, different gear, and different skills are needed etc for pvp. Mostly I think it is folks are unprepared. Just like I'm unprepared for vet dungeons or trials, since I don't know the mechanics, needed rotations, or have the appropriate gear.

zyk · May 2019

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I dont understand why we as a species are so compelled to divide ourselves into 2 groups. Ever occur to anyone in this debate that a lot of people play both PVP and PVE? In fact, if you dont, I would be willing to bet that there are some serious holes in your game.

Destyran · May 2019

MrBumblefoot wrote: »

I don't understand the PvE players' hate for PvP. I don't see any PvP players hating PvE much but everytime I visit the forums and read some discussions, I always see PvE players spitting hate for PvP. I don't really understand the reason, as a both PvE and PvP player. I get it, some people might not like PvE or PvP but so many people hating PvP, why? Does it hurt more if you get killed by a player instead of a boss? It doesn't even degrade armor... I don't understand why some people are so afraid of the concept of getting killed by another player.

In my opinion, getting killed by predictable AI is more insulting than getting killed by an actual human. Those PvE players are fine with wiping over and over again by a dungeon/trial boss but they lose their minds when it comes to getting killed by another player. Hello, they're the same thing! You just respawn and try again... I just came here because I've seen some people not doing the amazing Imperial City questline just because of the risk of getting killed by enemy players. I just can't get my head around it, getting killed by a player is no different than getting killed by AI (actually it's less punishing) and also (this part is solely my opinion) I think PvP is more fun because fighting against enemies that actually fight back is more fun. I love both PvE and PvP but I think PvP is more fun, actually the only PvE content that can compete with PvP is the Maelstrom Arena. However I'm not telling anyone that they should start doing PvP. I just explained why I love it and I want to know why some hate it. Hating it with a passion is just not understandable for me.

Pve players have earth gore a good set to help learn mechanics.

Unskilled pvp players whine and nerf it even tho it has a large cool down and the TTK is small

Stuff like that some raider really hate change especially coz of people just jumping on a bandwagon and calling for nerfs.

Jayne_Doe · May 2019

I'm not sure if you're talking about players hating PvP itself or hating PvP players. I don't care about PvP, have no interest. I've gone there for the Mid Year Mayhem for tickets, but I find the whole process of queuing for a campaign and the whole transit system to be tedious, not to mention having to ride and ride and ride and ride...

And IC? I think it will be better when it has it's own campaign, but getting there is a royal pain. And the sewer system, which ladder to take. Meh...

I also have no interest in fighting other players. Largely because I don't care to gear and skill for it. I'm a solo PvE quester/role player, so I play the parts of the game I enjoy.

But I don't hate PvP players.

thedude33 · May 2019

mague wrote: »

MrBumblefoot wrote: »

I don't understand the PvE players' hate for PvP. I don't see any PvP players hating PvE much but everytime I visit the forums and read some discussions, I always see PvE players spitting hate for PvP.

Are you trying to bait ?

The real reason is not PvP itself, but gankers. Active and passive gankers.

What is ganking? I've been killed in pvp, by multiple classes and multiple builds, in multiple situations.

Shantu · May 2019

I played PVP constantly for around 6 months. I had some great times, but overall, eventually, it just wore me down. I would find myself getting pissed off more and more with the experience until finally I just decided this feeling is NOT what I play a game for. Some of the reasons:

1. The toxicity of some players is just despicable.
2. The constant nerfs to PVE in the name of PVP continue to get under my skin. Trying to balance both at once both is just ignorant.
3. The gankers.
4. Running along and then being dead without warning because I just got hit by several skills at the same time.
5. The lag and unresponsive skills.
6. Spending half my time riding a horse simulator.
7. Constant frustration of snares/roots/CC's.
8. Stuck in combat bug.
9. The sprint bug.
10. Unkillable players wasting my time.
11. Ending up as AP fodder for some unbeatable pre-made group.
12. The frequent one-zerg-take-all nature of some campaigns.
13. And finally, while I'm decent in a group (made the rank of 2nd grade Colonel), I'm just not really that good at it.

Can't say I "hate" PVP, but eventually the fun factor just got eroded away. Now I have no desire whatsoever for the experience of more PVP.

Iki · May 2019

Many pve players hate pvp because it`s unfair. Simple as that. Let me elaborate.

There`s 2 forms of pvp that usually are bit more fair than other forms, dueling and battlegrounds, but in all other aspects of pvp it`s natural that we get into unfair situations. There can be situational/local numerical imabalances, small X amount of players vs biggger X. There may be weak players facing hardened veterans and usually it`s less experienced side that gets to accept defeat. That`s just how it is in Cyrodiil. Even in battlegrounds you will sometimes find imbalanced teams and players dying locally outnumbered. But those understandable imbalances are not the whole story.

We also got huge power-creep in this game.

In my opinion, that power-creep is even bigger reason for many to hate pvp than any situational imbalances. It`s not just about amount of champion points you have, if that was only issue non-cp pvp would be answer. It`s not just about how good gear/build you have, you can find and copy-paste good builds. There`s differences in quality of players rigs, connections, reaction-times, difference in the amount of knowledge one have about game mechanics and theorycrafting. And ofc big difference in the amount of time spent practising your class/spec/build/rotations. None of the things I mentioned explains power-creep alone, but combination of everything causes difference between strongest and weakest players to be bigger than it has ever been. And that difference is at unhealthy levels these days.

In practise that power-creep means that weak newcomers barely even scratch health-pools of their veteran opponents while they get killed very very fast by overwhelming incoming damage-numbers. Newcomers simply don`t stand a chance, at all.
I see this every day in Cyrodiil. If I use ability X that usually deals lets say 5-8k dmg to hardened veterans, but if target is squishy newcomer, he may receive 15-20k damage. And difference in defense is at similar levels. Ability X from strong veteran may hit me for 10k while weaker player with same ability tickles me with 3k incoming dmg.
So, thrice the damage-output and thrice the defense, that`s how veteran may look like from newcomers point of view. Sounds unfair, doesn`t it?

This power-creep causes us to have two different issues at same time in pvp (more in cp-pvp), we have both too high TTK (time to kill) and too low TTK. I have seen people debating which one is the problem, but they fail to see that it depends on point of view. For those who do not build themselves tanky, often newcomers or glasscannon builds, ttk is way too low, they can easily get one-shotted in pvp. By getting "one-shotted" I mean that player die faster than he can break free from stun and use ability. Altough, extremely squishy player can also be literally one-shotted by just one hard-hitting ability. Meanwhile tanky and/or experienced players have very different experience, for them ttk is often too high, and killing opponent can be very slow, difficult and boring task.

We have had this tank-meta in pvp for a long time now, where players and groups try to make them as hard to kill as possible, and that creates illusion that ttk would be too high, but at the same time, at the same sandbox, there`s many squishy players who can get one-shotted. Because of way too big power-creep.

Competition is fun, fair and exciting when all participants have somewhat realistic chance to win. In team-play everyone needs to get the feeling that they contributed to outcome somehow and that their team actually has a chance to win. In a fight we want to have chance to fight back, get the feeling that we are defending ourselves, damaging opponents and fighting for victory.
Some people get much less chance to feel those feelings and for much shorter time-periods. And that can make pvp boring, miserable and humiliating experience for them. They may hate pvp with passion, and I can understand why.

TL;DR Power creep in this game and pvp is too big. Difference in power of stronger and weaker players (and groups) is so big that weaker side may be unable to enjoy pvp, hence they stay in pve and hate pvp.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · May 2019

Sagz wrote: »

The funny thing is, the OP is right, what is the risk? So what, you die, try again you lose nothing. I remember back in the day, your corpse could be looted (whether you died in PVE or PVP) and you lose your gear, unless you successfully ran back and relooted your body before someone else did. Now that was fun, entertaining, and make you deal with risk/reward. Nowadays....eh just try again. Why get mad?

I think 90% of the eso player could not handle that emotionally.

I wish we had a full loot campaign.

Helgi_Skotina · May 2019

Someone hates PvP? Well, all our life is a PvP where we fight against each other for diferent reasons. The life is a competition and there are allways more losers, than winners. And of course, no one cares about a loser's feelings. You have the freedom to love or hate whatever you want, but why do you think that anyone cares?

Glurin · May 2019

I don't hate PvP perse. I just hate how it brings out the worst in players. At least the jerks in PvE are easy to avoid by comparison, but the ones in PvP deliberately go out of their way to ruin other people's day.

Jeremy · May 2019

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

Becuase pvp is more competitive...like sport...if ur beating timer ur less annoyed then if a another dude is faster than u for example...human beings are jealous and spiteful..having another dude bash their skkulls is kinda humiliating..but not really...and that shows

Or maybe it's simply the fact they don't enjoy being outnumbered and ganged up on by superior numbers where they have little to no chance of surviving - which is how you die in PvP 9 times out of 10.

People generally don't like getting ganged up on and beaten into a pulp with no real chance to defend themselves. This idea that PvP is all about "skills" and people don't like it because it's competitive and they are jealous and spiteful because others are better than them is likely hogwash. The only time I actually do enjoy PvP on this game is when it actually is a fair fight to where there actually is a skill element involved. Win or lose - at least those fights can be pretty fun. But anyone who PvPs on this game for any length of time quickly learns that is rarely the case.

Sometimes you're the windshield
Sometimes you're the bug

Jeremy · May 2019

Iki wrote: »

Many pve players hate pvp because it`s unfair. Simple as that.

Exactly.

MrBrownstone · May 2019

Mago wrote: »

I hate pvp but I do the daily to get the 100k exp.
Forcing players into pvp is not the way in my opinion.

Do you think that the daily random dungeon xp bonus forces players into PvE?

MrBrownstone · May 2019

david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »

MrBumblefoot wrote: »

I don't understand the PvE players' hate for PvP. I don't see any PvP players hating PvE

Two reasons

1) A lot of change that impact PvE are made in roder to balance PvP. The reverse happens too but it seems less frequent. Wings and shield change comes to mind.

2) A lot of PvE stuff is locked behind PvP requirement. Its true that even if you want to be a 100% PvP player you still have to beat a lot of PvE content but thats how every MMO works so PvP players are used to this formula. But PvE players are very rarely forced to do PvP to get anything PvE related in any MMO beside ESO.

Can you make me a list of PvP things that PvE players are forced to do? No, don't tell me about the Skyshards in Cyrodiil, Skyshards are not PvE content. Skyshards grant you skill points which you need in every aspect of the game. Don't tell me about fishing achievements either because a player chasing that would probably be an achievement hunter so they would be playing both PvE and PvP anyway. And btw the Master Angler achievement is not a PvE achievement, it takes place in both PvE and PvP zones so you can't just classify it as PvE or PvP. You don't have to classify literally everything as PvE or PvP in this game. Skyshards are needed for both PvP and PvE.

I can only think of Vigor and Warhorn skills. They're the only actually PvP only content that are needed in PvE that comes to my mind.

And when you're done listing, someone should make a list of PvE content that PvP players are forced to do... I don't really think they can compare.

MrBrownstone · May 2019

And also I'd like to add; I do PvP a lot but I don't like Cyrodiil. Most of the time the bigger zerg wins there. Yeah the group leader can make some strategic moves and give the group a higher chance to win but 90% of the time in my experience, the bigger zerg won. That's why I play Battlegrounds. It feels much more fair, more balanced, more coordinated. Also there is no CP and I hate CP in PvP. I recommend any PvE players who are interested in trying out PvP to try Battlegrounds, you're not gonna enjoy Cyrodiil if you just join a pug zerg and get stomped by a bigger zerg. You also get matched with players of your skill level in BGs. I think the hidden mmr system is pretty good because everytime I'm in a BG, I feel like both my teammates and opponents get better with every match.

Jeremy · May 2019

MrBumblefoot wrote: »

And also I'd like to add; I do PvP a lot but I don't like Cyrodiil. Most of the time the bigger zerg wins there. Yeah the group leader can make some strategic moves and give the group a higher chance to win but 90% of the time in my experience, the bigger zerg won. That's why I play Battlegrounds. It feels much more fair, more balanced, more coordinated. Also there is no CP and I hate CP in PvP. I recommend any PvE players who are interested in trying out PvP to try Battlegrounds, you're not gonna enjoy Cyrodiil if you just join a pug zerg and get stomped by a bigger zerg. You also get matched with players of your skill level in BGs. I think the hidden mmr system is pretty good because everytime I'm in a BG, I feel like both my teammates and opponents get better with every match.

I prefer battlegrounds as well and for pretty much all the same reasons you do.

JumpmanLane · May 2019

I joined PvP in Vivec at level 10 because ZOS sent me an email like PvP was just another part of the game...because IT IS. I stayed and died and learned just like I stuck with dungeons. I never really views ESO as 2 different games.

tizodd · May 2019

A lot of pages in this post so I'm sure my points have already been made but I don't feel like reading through everything so here goes:

I'm a PvE'er who hates PvP for three primary reasons:

I log on to play after a long day of work to relax, not to measure my epeen against someone else's epeen. Along the same train of thought...PvP seems to bring the worst out of people because of the competitiveness of it. I have no desire to compete against other humans in a game...I compete against other humans all day irl and gaming is my refuge from the rat race.
I hate when games force PvE'ers into PvP. Having to grind Cyrodiil to get Caltrops or Warhorn is extremely annoying when all I want to do is relax and have some co-op fun with other people.
MMO's with PvP always seem to repeat the same mistake of trying to balance PvE and PvP together. IT NEVER WORKS! This is extremely annoying for PvE'ers to have to re-do builds/gearsets because things were changed (yet again) based on PvP'ers whining about something.

Mr_Walker · May 2019

mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

mague wrote: »

MrBumblefoot wrote: »

I don't understand the PvE players' hate for PvP. I don't see any PvP players hating PvE much but everytime I visit the forums and read some discussions, I always see PvE players spitting hate for PvP.

Are you trying to bait ?

The real reason is not PvP itself, but gankers. Active and passive gankers.

Honestly, there's not many true gankers anymore. The play style has been nerfed. Don't get me won't, there are still gankers lurking about, but it's not an easy play style anymore.

Edit: someone hiding in stealth does not necessarily mean they are a ganker.

If someone is stalking the quest areas to kill easy target casual PvE players, hes a ganker.

Well, it rhymes with ganker....

central_scrutinizer · May 2019

I can understand why somebody who only plays one mode would hate the other as long as the devs insist on trying to balance one based upon the other.

As long as we have fake/canned pvp (I don't see instanced pvp as being genuine pvp, it's more like a consequence-free minigame you can pick up and put down at any time) sequestered away from the rest of the game, I think that it's only ever going to be a decisive thing to force balance changes where they don't even apply.

morrowjen · May 2019

For me it's not about winning/losing or whether an AI or person kills me, I simply like quests and stories. PVP reminds me of playing old fighting games on console or even at the arcade against another person (those days were fun and every now and then they're still fun) but I'm just more into stories these days. And Battlegrounds ably fills need to do a quick fight against other people without having to get bogged down in a campaign or jump through the hoops of getting in and out of Cyrodil/IC.

I think a lot of the resentment comes from Zeni foolishly putting PVE content in PVP-land more than anything else. Pull out the PVE content and put it into a PVE zone and 90 percent of the complaints/hate would likely evaporate.

Sylvermynx · May 2019

I don't hate pvp players. I don't even really hate pvp. I played on a pvp server in wow (horde side) for months. It was never fun, even after I got decent at it (believe me, lag like you have when sat is your only connection makes pvp really hard from the get-go). I was never "good" at it, just got by.

The operative words there: it was never fun. What I hated was wasting my time on it. I'm a player who loves questing, not combat (of any kind). I despise having to kill my way through zones for xp - I'd far rather do "pacifist" quests. This game is really hard for me, due to the "mini-bosses" in the quest setups which make it virtually impossible for me to complete said quests.

I do side quests some, after looking them up to make sure I'm not going to run head-on into a mob there's no way I can kill. Mostly though, I explore in this game - even with mega ping I can manage that!

As for pvp though - nope, never going to go there again. Bottom line is I'm just not competitive at all.

Jeremy · May 2019

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I don't hate pvp players. I don't even really hate pvp. I played on a pvp server in wow (horde side) for months. It was never fun, even after I got decent at it (believe me, lag like you have when sat is your only connection makes pvp really hard from the get-go). I was never "good" at it, just got by.

The operative words there: it was never fun. What I hated was wasting my time on it. I'm a player who loves questing, not combat (of any kind). I despise having to kill my way through zones for xp - I'd far rather do "pacifist" quests. This game is really hard for me, due to the "mini-bosses" in the quest setups which make it virtually impossible for me to complete said quests.

I do side quests some, after looking them up to make sure I'm not going to run head-on into a mob there's no way I can kill. Mostly though, I explore in this game - even with mega ping I can manage that!

As for pvp though - nope, never going to go there again. Bottom line is I'm just not competitive at all.

I'm not competitive either really and could care less if I win or lose. I just want to have fun while I play. And sadly there is just nothing fun about being almost instant killed by some zerg train.