DPS Queing as Tanks.

Darkenarlol · May 2019

Anvilkos wrote: »

My question is: 1. Is this Normal? 2. Does the DPS as Tank queing Happen often? and finally 3. Is there a way to fix this? (Other than actually getting into the Dungeon and Having to discover that your Tank ain't a Tank?)

1) yes

2)yes

3) bring your own tank

if you have ANY specific requirements for your group or playstyle

form your own group or at least do not complain about about anything

mismatching your expectations when queued with DF

Anvilkos · May 2019

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

Anvilkos wrote: »

The Last Few Times some of my Guildmates and I have done the Dungeon Que's we have,(for some reason), Gotten an Obviously DPS character who has Qued as a tank. While, Yes the DPS Que is stupid Long, It takes away from the group as a whole to be selfish and que as a Tank. These guys couldn't hold Aggro, and caused several group wipes. A Vote to kick was taken, and, that ended up with a Spam fest of Hate whispers from the individual who got kicked. My question is: 1. Is this Normal? 2. Does the DPS as Tank queing Happen often? and finally 3. Is there a way to fix this? (Other than actually getting into the Dungeon and Having to discover that your Tank ain't a Tank?)

I have 5 tanks now because of this. When you queue, having a tank and a healer ready is the most convenient.

Want to Join a small Guild?? We Do Have 2 Members Leveling Heals ATM, Not quite CP 250 yet but they are getting there...

Anvilkos · May 2019

Darkenarlol wrote: »

Anvilkos wrote: »

My question is: 1. Is this Normal? 2. Does the DPS as Tank queing Happen often? and finally 3. Is there a way to fix this? (Other than actually getting into the Dungeon and Having to discover that your Tank ain't a Tank?)

1) yes

2)yes

3) bring your own tank

if you have ANY specific requirements for your group or playstyle

form your own group or at least do not complain about about anything

mismatching your expectations when queued with DF

We Now have 2 Tanks in Guild.. but waiting for them to get on gets.... Old...They have their own Lives and Issues. (They ain't retired Like me...)

snarkomatic · May 2019

Darkenarlol wrote: »

if you have ANY specific requirements for your group or playstyle

form your own group or at least do not complain about about anything

mismatching your expectations when queued with DF

"Specific requirements" and "mismatched expectations" = expecting to get someone who actually wants to tank queued as tank? Nah, that doesn't fly.

Don't complain about the skill level maybe, don't complain about the knowledge or experience, but queuing with no intention of even trying to fill the role you selected is bad behavior on that player's part, not the fault of anyone else's requirements or expectations.

ankeor · May 2019

The reality is if that dps did not queue as tank you would still be at the queue and waiting.

idk · May 2019

Anvilkos wrote: »

These guys couldn't hold Aggro, and caused several group wipes. A Vote to kick was taken, and, that ended up with a Spam fest of Hate whispers from the individual who got kicked. ?)

You did what was right in vote kicking them. Next time I would suggest ignoring their hate whispers. It actually frustrates them more but they end up ceasing this.

Considering one can tank on any character buy simply changing out some skills and if the boss hits hard then change out some armor. I have tanked vet dungeons on dps this way, without changing CP, and it has worked fine.

Jeremy · May 2019

Anvilkos wrote: »

The Last Few Times some of my Guildmates and I have done the Dungeon Que's we have,(for some reason), Gotten an Obviously DPS character who has Qued as a tank. While, Yes the DPS Que is stupid Long, It takes away from the group as a whole to be selfish and que as a Tank. These guys couldn't hold Aggro, and caused several group wipes. A Vote to kick was taken, and, that ended up with a Spam fest of Hate whispers from the individual who got kicked. My question is: 1. Is this Normal? 2. Does the DPS as Tank queing Happen often? and finally 3. Is there a way to fix this? (Other than actually getting into the Dungeon and Having to discover that your Tank ain't a Tank?)

Yep. This has been a problem for a long time now. This is also one of the few situations where I feel a kick is wholly justified. So just ignore the hate mail. You were in the right to remove him or her from the party. The tank slot is reserved for actual tanks - not dishonest DPS who want to cut in line.

But to answer your question: no, not really - aside from playing as a tank yourself (which is what I ended up doing, especially since I often ended up tanking on my healer anyway). Currently there isn't an effective solution to this problem. There needs to be one though. One idea I often bring up that I liked is the ability to flag players who abuse the queue system. That way when someone gets enough flags the developers can investigate and initiate a temporary ban from using the activity finder if appropriate. I believe that would help discourage this practice.

Vercingetorix · May 2019

To be fair, the base game NORMAL dungeons don't really need a tank as long as players stay close to boss (to keep ground DoTs on boss) and trust the healer to simply heal them through the rather light damage. I would say exceptions to this "rule" might be Fungal Grotto II (Bandu) and City of Ash II (Daedroth, Titan, Skoria).

As for veteran dungeons and DLC dungeons of any difficulty, it is practically a federal crime to queue up as a "fake tank" - in most scenarios, you are dooming the run before it even begins, wasting everybody's time. I've personally combated this issue by simply taking it upon myself to learn tanking, something I've historically shied away from. The community could benefit from more tanks and as I get better, I'm doing my part to help make the Dungeon Finder a more positive experience.

Jhalin · May 2019

If they can hold taunt on the big boss and priority adds, and they dont die every few second, thats all you need in normal. A tank doesn’t add much at that difficulty because nothing deals damage to be afraid of

Runkorko · May 2019

Kenrixx wrote: »

1: Yes
2:Yes
3: No way to fix it.. probably the person who is queing as a fake tank and he is DPS he probably can this dungeon solo. No need to kick such ppl cuz u just wasting ur time sicne with this person u could just rush through entire dungeon. Tanks are not really neded in non DLC dungeons especially on normall, if u get fake tank that have high dps.

1:Nope
2:Yes
3: Dont speak BS. Ofc they need to be kicked. I dont care do he can solo or not/ anyway, most of those scrubs are lvl 20 something characters so they cant solo sh.t/
Way to fix it- kick.
Same with fake healers.
To carry his arse just because hes lazy to wait like rest of us...
Sure.

snarkomatic · May 2019

ankeor wrote: »

The reality is if that dps did not queue as tank you would still be at the queue and waiting.

And yet almost every time I kick one, I get a proper one in their place ~5min later. That math doesn't seem to add up.

JKith · May 2019

If I don't have much time, i'll queue my max level CP DPS as a tank but ONLY for Random Normals (not vets) and I DO use Inner Fire to hold aggro, but I also do a ton of DPS. I'm actually more of an asset playing this way on a random norm than I am just on my tank that does no damage.

If it's a Vet though,.. no way,... i'll only queue as a tank with my real tank.

AndyMac · May 2019

Pevey wrote: »

Usually only high level players who could actually solo the dungeon will queue their dps as tank.

TLDR: I actually like good fake tank runs where the dps can do the job well enough. They are fast and easy. Bad fake tanks who can neither tank nor dps just need to be kicked ASAP.

This.

I did a vDirefrost pledge on an alt to level my undaunted with a group with a dps who queued as tank. I was wondering why I was getting a lot more love from the first boss than usual. Lol

But the guy admitted as much and group DPS was so high that we just ripped through HM with all achievements - including no death and speed run whilst he and I were both doing the quest.

So if anything this fake tank actually made the run work - I won't need to do that dungeon again. Ever.

The previous fake tank was in vet Scalecaller and he was kicked after the second trash pull -it's almost impossible imo for a pug to do that dungeon without a tank.

El_Borracho · May 2019

This is the first I've heard of this chicanery. Someone, quick, alert ZOS!

Cortimi · May 2019

Hell, I used to get kicked simply for being a dual-wielding Dunmer sNB tank (you ever tanked with the dual-wield Ulti? Sooooo nice), even though I had around 35k HP. Not my fault it was easier to get an Ebon dagger than a shield and people don't understand that ranged taunts exist.

EvilAutoTech · May 2019

El_Borracho wrote: »

This is the first I've heard of this chicanery. Someone, quick, alert ZOS!

Sir, have you been drinking?

Runkorko · May 2019

Cortimi wrote: »

Hell, I used to get kicked simply for being a dual-wielding Dunmer sNB tank (you ever tanked with the dual-wield Ulti? Sooooo nice), even though I had around 35k HP. Not my fault it was easier to get an Ebon dagger than a shield and people don't understand that ranged taunts exist.

So you are stamina NB using magica taunt ?
Should be efective....
There are tons of craftable starting tank sets. Easy to upgrade to epic. You can use thus till you get your proper sets done.
Missing 1 items is not a excuse to dw tank.
Cant blame them for the kick:)

D0PAMINE · May 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

If they can hold taunt on the big boss and priority adds, and they dont die every few second, thats all you need in normal. A tank doesn’t add much at that difficulty because nothing deals damage to be afraid of

Agreed. If more people who queued as a tank would hold aggro, than that's all that is important. If they can't do that or unwilling to, unless it's ok with the group, than a vote kick would be justified.

idk · May 2019

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

If they can hold taunt on the big boss and priority adds, and they dont die every few second, thats all you need in normal. A tank doesn’t add much at that difficulty because nothing deals damage to be afraid of

Agreed. If more people who queued as a tank would hold aggro, than that's all that is important. If they can't do that or unwilling to, unless it's ok with the group, than a vote kick would be justified.

I recall being a healer with a fake tank. He was able to hold agro but was not smart enough to stay alive. He would not even hold block to Spawn of Mephala's PBAoE and would go from full health to dead. Hard to hold agro when you are dead. What was worse is he did not learn his lesson with the first death. He died to each and every PBAoE she did.

You can even move out of that but no. Bad tank and bad dps rolled up in one.

Glurin · May 2019

Anvilkos wrote: »

1. Is this Normal?

Depends on what you consider "normal". Normal as in it happens a lot or normal as in it's an ok thing to do? If the former, the answer is yes. If the later, the answer is no unless you are both able and willing to do the job you queued for.

Anvilkos wrote: »

2. Does the DPS as Tank queing Happen often?

Unfortunately, yes. Very often. Far too often.

Anvilkos wrote: »

3. Is there a way to fix this? (Other than actually getting into the Dungeon and Having to discover that your Tank ain't a Tank?)

Large scale, no, not really. Not without stripping away everything that makes ESO characters, well, Elder Scrolls characters.

On an individual level, yup, there is absolutely one sure fire fix that works wonders. All you have to do is be the tank yourself. I did it and my fake tank problems vanished instantly.

Of course that means I don't get to be a DPS, which is my preferred role, but lets just say that the annoyance level eventually surpassed my desire to stay a DPS. Also people seem to be really appreciative when they get a tank who is actually a tank. Even if that tank is inexperienced or has never done the dungeon before.

Sinolai · May 2019

Anvilkos wrote: »

The Last Few Times some of my Guildmates and I have done the Dungeon Que's we have,(for some reason), Gotten an Obviously DPS character who has Qued as a tank. While, Yes the DPS Que is stupid Long, It takes away from the group as a whole to be selfish and que as a Tank. These guys couldn't hold Aggro, and caused several group wipes. A Vote to kick was taken, and, that ended up with a Spam fest of Hate whispers from the individual who got kicked. My question is: 1. Is this Normal? 2. Does the DPS as Tank queing Happen often? and finally 3. Is there a way to fix this? (Other than actually getting into the Dungeon and Having to discover that your Tank ain't a Tank?)

1. Yes
2. Yes, it happens very often.
3. No. Just vote kick the tank if it causes too much trouble but in some cases you really wont notice the difference, or if dds are not that good, the fake tank may even save a few minutes.

IonicKai · May 2019

Anvilkos wrote: »

My question is: 1. Is this Normal? 2. Does the DPS as Tank queing Happen often? and finally 3. Is there a way to fix this? (Other than actually getting into the Dungeon and Having to discover that your Tank ain't a Tank?)

1. Very normal for normal dungeons and more common than it should be on vet.
2. Again fairly common and normal and more common than it should be on vet.
3. Unfortunately there is no true fix other than kicking the pretend tank if there are things that are going wrong because they aren't taking aggro.

Unfortunately too many players think they are able to just steam roll through and don't understand that some basic things make the pug life much easier. These same players also greatly over estimate themselves and blame you when they are often the problem or don't understand that they were able to do it with others because the whole group was really strong. There are certainly players who can solo some dungeons even on vet though so always give them a chance unless they are just toxic jerks.

Some people falsely believe that high CP makes them strong but that's just no true I have seen 810s that can barely complete a dungeon on normal and CP400s that can crush vet as CP is heavily front loaded so I would avoid judging by CP since it's a better measurement of play time then player capability.

PUGs are always hit or miss so I just suggest you take it as it comes or try to get a friend to fill one of the support roles so you aren't screwed over.

me_ming · May 2019

richo262 wrote: »

Yeah que for a vet as a tank and you should get booted. Save for a couple.

DarkShade 2 comes to mind.

Boss 1 - He stands still and does a fire spin attack. Taunt is useless, damage is to be dodged, not tanked.
Boss 2 - Easy burn, can be tanked, but ultimately not required
Boss 3 - Often skipped
Boss 4 - The netch has a mind of its own, cannot be taunted. Taunt is useless.
Boss 5 - A bunch of ads, tank is only useful for taunting the big guys, but they usually drop quickly.
Final Boss - This guy is on rails, taunt is useless on him. The ads are all ranged and their attacks pass through you (damaging anybody standing in front, or behind you). The only thing a tank can do is chain them close to boss. Final boss is really just a test of the healer, not the tank. A non-DK tank is totally useless on the final boss. A DK Tank is only useful for chains.

Verdict on vDS2. 3 DPS 1 Healer is by far the optimal setup on normal, veteran and veteran HM. Tank is really just a passenger.

There are a few vets like this. There are also many that without a tank you are screwed.

A lot of people seem to think that taunt is the only job a tank should do. There is more to tanking than just taunting. And while yes, while I agree that DC2 is a dungeon where taunt is more or less useless, I still think that having a tank makes the run easier.

Taunting is one of the things that a tank should do, but what separates a good tank from the best tank is more than just knowing what to taunt, now, I don't have a tank (tanking in ESO is the only game I honestly can't tank), but I know when my group has a competent tank versus someone who just is a tank. Tanking is even more than just debuffing, the best tanks knows how to control the ads, because unfortunately (and I don't know why) this game does not have an AoE taunt, knowing how to group ads or position the boss and ads so that the dps-es can easily stack their AoE and kill mobs more effectively, all this and at the same time knowing how to position the boss and the ads so everyone else in the groups receives the least amount of damage is when you know that the tank knows what they are doing.

D0PAMINE · May 2019

idk wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

If they can hold taunt on the big boss and priority adds, and they dont die every few second, thats all you need in normal. A tank doesn’t add much at that difficulty because nothing deals damage to be afraid of

Agreed. If more people who queued as a tank would hold aggro, than that's all that is important. If they can't do that or unwilling to, unless it's ok with the group, than a vote kick would be justified.

I recall being a healer with a fake tank. He was able to hold agro but was not smart enough to stay alive. He would not even hold block to Spawn of Mephala's PBAoE and would go from full health to dead. Hard to hold agro when you are dead. What was worse is he did not learn his lesson with the first death. He died to each and every PBAoE she did.

You can even move out of that but no. Bad tank and bad dps rolled up in one.

Yeah that's pretty bad. I just mist form it so im not kiting the boss around and risk getting pulled into the spider cave

Mathius_Mordred · May 2019

I think it depends on the level of the people you are taking and to which dungeon. So I'll go fank (fake tank) or sometimes fealer (oh dear) if it means we can do a random FG1 with some lowbies and get them through, my 560 can solo it anyway so I just tell them to self heal or stand back if they can't take the heat, normally nobody dies. On higher level dungeons I wouldn't do it and by then the guys should have learned the ropes enough to have decided their role, and of course never on vet.

pod88kk · May 2019

I only queue as tank on a dd if it's a pvp character with self heals & a normal dungeon & I throw a taunt on for good measure

Facefister · May 2019

Lol, I always queue as a Tank for my daily normal random. The trash groups and bosses are dead before they even get to cast stuff.

XiDiabolismiX · May 2019

Great topic, 10/10! I have never seen anything like it before! .......

In all seriousness, this is an MMO, therefore, you signed up to play with others, especially in random group content. There are tools to negate said annoyances and it is the vote kick option. You used it? Great! Now you can move on.

On a side note, it is entirely possible and quicker to run every dungeon except for the few newer dlc dungeons with 3 dps and a healer, or if your tank is great, then 1 tank and 3 dps.

There’s a certain knowledge threshold that you hit the more you play and understand the game. By the 1000th run through the same dungeon over and over again, you’ll be wanting to get it done as fast as possible.

azjuwelz · May 2019

Gatviper wrote: »

Happens very often, and if it does I don't participate in any kicking, I just leave the group directly myself. No respect from me for people like that, no matter their reasons. If you queue in for your role, then do your role, basta.

I had this happen during the Anniversary event; all of us were low CP and it was obvious that nobody was a tank OR a healer--I joined as DD and I was the lowest CP at about 100; the other 3 were CP150, and I have a feeling they'd grouped together. We barely made it past the first boss and wiped twice on the 2nd, and then when one of them complained that it was MY fault, I left. I figured they could have fun on their own (and since we'd killed the first boss already I doubt others would want to join and miss their pledge, lol.) This was on a normal dungeon, so basically we all sucked. (And yet I seemed to be the one getting boss aggro, so maybe I was doing more dmg? I don't have anything that would taunt.)

So no, fake tanks are not necessarily high CP and are not necessarily able to solo the dungeon. And yes, they're very annoying. I did fine with all other groups despite my low CP and crappy gear.

Glurin · May 2019

XiDiabolismiX wrote: »

In all seriousness, this is an MMO, therefore, you signed up to play with others, especially in random group content. There are tools to negate said annoyances and it is the vote kick option. You used it? Great! Now you can move on.

Yeah, that's fine and all, except that after you kick the fake tank you have to sit in the queue waiting for another tank to show, who has a good chance of also being a fake tank you have to kick. It's gotten bad enough that eventually you start wondering which is the better option. Playing the dungeon queue lottery, spamming various chat channels praying a real tank responds, or just putting up with one of the fake ones.