DPS Queing as Tanks.

Anvilkos

The Last Few Times some of my Guildmates and I have done the Dungeon Que's we have,(for some reason), Gotten an Obviously DPS character who has Qued as a tank. While, Yes the DPS Que is stupid Long, It takes away from the group as a whole to be selfish and que as a Tank. These guys couldn't hold Aggro, and caused several group wipes. A Vote to kick was taken, and, that ended up with a Spam fest of Hate whispers from the individual who got kicked. My question is: 1. Is this Normal? 2. Does the DPS as Tank queing Happen often? and finally 3. Is there a way to fix this? (Other than actually getting into the Dungeon and Having to discover that your Tank ain't a Tank?)

Kenrixx

1: Yes
2:Yes
3: No way to fix it.. probably the person who is queing as a fake tank and he is DPS he probably can this dungeon solo. No need to kick such ppl cuz u just wasting ur time sicne with this person u could just rush through entire dungeon. Tanks are not really neded in non DLC dungeons especially on normall, if u get fake tank that have high dps.

Pevey

Usually only high level players who could actually solo the dungeon will queue their dps as tank. I have one toon only where I would do this—my main. Can slot inner fire and keep aggro and kill the baddies before they hurt anyone else. Makes for fast queues and fast dungeon runs.

Dps doing this on weak characters—smh. I think they are needing a carry to level up their toon, and knowing their own dps is quite bad, they want to leave room for two more dps. They think a tank is not necessary because maybe they have a main who flies through normal dungeons and forgot what it was like on a low level character. Who knows.

TLDR: I actually like good fake tank runs where the dps can do the job well enough. They are fast and easy. Bad fake tanks who can neither tank nor dps just need to be kicked ASAP.

Anvilkos

LOL.. No, several of the Individuals were at our cp lvl or Lower. If the CP is Higher than ours there usually ain't a problem except for aggro. I've had a CP 810 HEALER run with the group and Tank it up...

Tulare_Verlaris

This is a very common practice, it happens all the time. DD do no want to wait in a 30+ minute queue for a fast random dungeon. I can see both sides of the argument, different people will have differing opinion on the matter. Hell, I have been guilty of it myself.

Most people make assumptions by looking at the health of the "tank" and thinking they are a DD or will be useless. I used to run Vet DLC dungeons where our tank was an 11k health Sorc and a lot of people who joined complained or just simply left. Once they had speed ran the dungeon with no issues or deaths, they soon changed their opinion. So what I am saying is it is not always possible to tell just by glancing at someones class, weapon or amount of health among things.

As long as the group is not wiping, the "tank" is taunting bosses and dangerous mobs and the run is going smooth I have zero problem with it. Indeed I am happy because the tank is putting out WAY more dps than a legit tank would and it usually goes a lot quicker.

On the other hand, if the "tank" is just a DD with no taunt or clue and lots of the group keep dying to even trash, then of course you have the choice to vote kick. Most of the time I have seen vote kicks for this in dungeons it does not succeed so you have to assume that people are either not that bothered by it or are just happy to have the quicker run...

The key, as always, to avoiding this is to run a premade group if you find it really bothersome. It is not going anywhere so it is either premade or put up with it in PuG's!

Sahidom

I agree with @Kenrixx .

StormeReigns

Kenrixx wrote: »

1: Yes
2:Yes
3: No way to fix it.. probably the person who is queing as a fake tank and he is DPS he probably can this dungeon solo. No need to kick such ppl cuz u just wasting ur time sicne with this person u could just rush through entire dungeon. Tanks are not really neded in non DLC dungeons especially on normall, if u get fake tank that have high dps.

Well, here's the thing. Are you absolutely 100% positive about that? Just cause it is normal for you to have evry fake tank able to solo all content, doesn't mean it is normal for others. Have had plenty dungeons in the past and present that say other wise with DPS queuing up as a tank that could barely dish out below average damage...

Now, if they can do average damage or more, sure old dungeons are cale walks but is that a risk you willing to take when it starts to become a habit and seen as normality outside of the old dungeons and leaks into vets and dlc dungeons...

Were does it stop being acceptable behavior and start being seen as a negative?

Gatviper

Happens very often, and if it does I don't participate in any kicking, I just leave the group directly myself. No respect from me for people like that, no matter their reasons. If you queue in for your role, then do your role, basta.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Anvilkos wrote: »

The Last Few Times some of my Guildmates and I have done the Dungeon Que's we have,(for some reason), Gotten an Obviously DPS character who has Qued as a tank. While, Yes the DPS Que is stupid Long, It takes away from the group as a whole to be selfish and que as a Tank. These guys couldn't hold Aggro, and caused several group wipes. A Vote to kick was taken, and, that ended up with a Spam fest of Hate whispers from the individual who got kicked. My question is: 1. Is this Normal? 2. Does the DPS as Tank queing Happen often? and finally 3. Is there a way to fix this? (Other than actually getting into the Dungeon and Having to discover that your Tank ain't a Tank?)

How many DDs run in front of the tank hitting the enemies first? What you expect from tanks to do, especially Ice staff ones, when there are 20 mobs having surrounded the group? Where is your responsibility to have a build that won't die the moment a trash mob looks at you and delivers a hit?

Elwendryll

It's a way to skip the queue.
Sometimes it's experienced players and they do the tank job with a DD build, and everyone is happy because most of the content doesn't even require a tank, so it just goes faster. Sometimes it's someone just being selfish, and bad.

RavenSworn

SkerKro wrote: »

Kenrixx wrote: »

1: Yes
2:Yes
3: No way to fix it.. probably the person who is queing as a fake tank and he is DPS he probably can this dungeon solo. No need to kick such ppl cuz u just wasting ur time sicne with this person u could just rush through entire dungeon. Tanks are not really neded in non DLC dungeons especially on normall, if u get fake tank that have high dps.

Well, here's the thing. Are you absolutely 100% positive about that? Just cause it is normal for you to have evry fake tank able to solo all content, doesn't mean it is normal for others. Have had plenty dungeons in the past and present that say other wise with DPS queuing up as a tank that could barely dish out below average damage...

Now, if they can do average damage or more, sure old dungeons are cale walks but is that a risk you willing to take when it starts to become a habit and seen as normality outside of the old dungeons and leaks into vets and dlc dungeons...

Were does it stop being acceptable behavior and start being seen as a negative?

Amen brother.

Its about fundamentals. What about those just starting out to actually learn the ropes? You don't learn tanking out in overland, nor do you learn pve tanking by doing pvp tanking. It's just different. Not to mention, those who are learning to dps and not having a proper tank to take aggro, to position the bosses, to ensure group survivability...

Take a look at what the game actually says about the tank role. Those who are familiar with mmos understand that it's more fluid than that but for those who aren't? Technically, it's by game design so why aren't players playing by game design?

Just some thoughts.

Jazz_Funk

When I run with my friends we run 3 DD/ 1 Tank for all pledges including DLC pledges. It has always made more sense for me for people to queue as a fake healer than a fake tank but I guess that probably has something to do with queue time. However, I disagree with people queueing for fake roles in principal as the other 3 people have queued expecting a standard group set up and it is unfair to them.

Ryath_Waylander

Where it stops being acceptable is when the bow/bow non-aggro fake tank tries to kick one of the DD's (learning a new build in a normal dungeon) for low dps. Then I stop healing him and let him die while I look after the two DD's and myself, who has all the aggro from the heals.

NordSwordnBoard

1 Yes
2 Yes
3 You did fix the problem - you kicked it. The majority rules in the PUG. Anybody who says otherwise is pushing their own agenda.

redlink1979

Totally not acceptable is queuing as tank for vet mode.

richo262

I often used to fake tank non-DLC normal dungeons. I equip the undaunted taunt though to make sure I take the beating and not another, and to keep the boss still so the other DPS can apply AOE effectively. I satisfy the role of tank enough, but I'm not really a tank.

I have a CP over 1,000 and can solo most normals (where mechanics allow).

I don't do it anymore since I'm above CP810, and all my characters are now level 9 or more Undaunted, and I have 400 keys. I used to do it though.

IF Zos wanted to fix this. They would shift the incentive. People run random normals as fake tank for 1 of 3 reasons. XP, Undaunted XP, or keys. They run it as fake tank because the que time is ridiculous. A good fake tank actually speeds up the que finder for everybody because that is 3DPS 1 Healer taken out of que and the dungeon was completed successfully. The Tank to DPS ratio has improved slightly in the finder.

The way ZOS would mitigate much of the problems DPS que'ers have is if they implemented a trial finder.

The Trial finder would not allow for random (but first trial of the day will activate the XP bonus of dungeon finder). You have to specify which trial to run, and it has 4 roles, DPS, Heal, Tank and Offtank. Offtank is present on certain trials such as nMOL, nHOF, nCR. nMOL and nCR can be done without off tanks but for pug groups, it doesn't hurt. CP lock is 300.

It would also be good if the group finder actually formed groups within the group. Ie. nHRC Group 1 is blocked from going downstairs, Group 2 is blocked from going upstairs. They are also notified on where to go. It essentially has a small tutorial (which can be disabled) for first timers, with small explanations of mechanics.

What that would do is soak up 8 or 9 DPS per each time reducing the DPS que in normal dungeons substantially. You would get improved que time for Dungeons as many DPS may choose to use Trial finder instead. DPS would have much less incentive for faking tank and much shorter wait times to actually perform their actual role.

crowfl56

The answer is , Mulls don't like rules and don't believe they need to follow them.

Because the rules mean nothing to them , sorry for telling the truth.

tyggerbob

Yeah.. happens too often, and in a lot of cases, yes, you can do normal content without a tank **IF** you have the DPS. But sometimes, when your DDs are levelling and below 50 or no/low CP, they don't have it, and you NEED to do the mechanics. I was doing White Gold Tower and we kept dying because the tank couldn't hold the boss. I usually tank, and as a good ESO citizen, rather than get pissed off, I offered advice about agro.. got the response "what's a taunt" I explained and got back "We don't need that, just kill the boss" Ummmm.. VtK..
I don't mind someone queueing for the role.. just be able to do that job, that's all? Grab inner fire or have an ice staff in your bag for when you queue out of role. No asking too much.

Schemering

the underlying problem is normal dungeons are soloable for lots of players and only 6 of the veteran dungeons really need a tank (there are 6 dungeons i could not aggro the boss and survive in light armor but maybe other people can even do these in light or medium armor taunting the bosses)

Because of this more than 75% of veteram dungeons and 100% of normal dungeons give much too high chance for people to queue for random as tank while being a dd or healer and get away with it.

I did it in the past sometimes but i realised it might ruin the experience of other players so now i queue as my actual role and only for the vet version of last 8 dlc dungeons as the other ones are too easy for me to enjoy

I think you are entitled to get a tank when you queue so if you get someone with 17k health just ask if theyre gonna tank with 17k and if they say yes or dont reply either give them one chance or kick immediately if its a recent vet dlc dungeon

ticka_kicka

I personally don't care when I get a fake tank as long as they aren't a jerk i.e. running past the team to the point we don't get XP or not bother with the enemies and the low-level teammates start to have a hard time, abandoning questing teammates. Usually, I or someone with me will ask for them to slow down, if they don't/are a jerk about it we kick them and finish the dungeon on our own at our pace or we re-queue and still finish it at our pace. I also understand not waiting around for too long tho and encourage my team to try to keep up with them unless quest forces them to wait/listening to the dialogue. In vet content, though you're usually getting a swift kick from me

tyggerbob

RavenSworn wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

Kenrixx wrote: »

1: Yes
2:Yes
3: No way to fix it.. probably the person who is queing as a fake tank and he is DPS he probably can this dungeon solo. No need to kick such ppl cuz u just wasting ur time sicne with this person u could just rush through entire dungeon. Tanks are not really neded in non DLC dungeons especially on normall, if u get fake tank that have high dps.

Well, here's the thing. Are you absolutely 100% positive about that? Just cause it is normal for you to have evry fake tank able to solo all content, doesn't mean it is normal for others. Have had plenty dungeons in the past and present that say other wise with DPS queuing up as a tank that could barely dish out below average damage...

Now, if they can do average damage or more, sure old dungeons are cale walks but is that a risk you willing to take when it starts to become a habit and seen as normality outside of the old dungeons and leaks into vets and dlc dungeons...

Were does it stop being acceptable behavior and start being seen as a negative?

Amen brother.

Its about fundamentals. What about those just starting out to actually learn the ropes? You don't learn tanking out in overland, nor do you learn pve tanking by doing pvp tanking. It's just different. Not to mention, those who are learning to dps and not having a proper tank to take aggro, to position the bosses, to ensure group survivability...

Take a look at what the game actually says about the tank role. Those who are familiar with mmos understand that it's more fluid than that but for those who aren't? Technically, it's by game design so why aren't players playing by game design?

Just some thoughts.

ABSOFREAKINGLUTELY THIS!

Salvas_Aren

I always pug with a real or fake tank. So no votekicks at this address.

richo262

Yeah que for a vet as a tank and you should get booted. Save for a couple.

DarkShade 2 comes to mind.

Boss 1 - He stands still and does a fire spin attack. Taunt is useless, damage is to be dodged, not tanked.
Boss 2 - Easy burn, can be tanked, but ultimately not required
Boss 3 - Often skipped
Boss 4 - The netch has a mind of its own, cannot be taunted. Taunt is useless.
Boss 5 - A bunch of ads, tank is only useful for taunting the big guys, but they usually drop quickly.
Final Boss - This guy is on rails, taunt is useless on him. The ads are all ranged and their attacks pass through you (damaging anybody standing in front, or behind you). The only thing a tank can do is chain them close to boss. Final boss is really just a test of the healer, not the tank. A non-DK tank is totally useless on the final boss. A DK Tank is only useful for chains.

Verdict on vDS2. 3 DPS 1 Healer is by far the optimal setup on normal, veteran and veteran HM. Tank is really just a passenger.

There are a few vets like this. There are also many that without a tank you are screwed.

snarkomatic

tyggerbob wrote: »

I don't mind someone queueing for the role.. just be able to do that job, that's all? [...] No asking too much.

Yup, pretty much this ...

Relevant-ish story time:

I was running my gf through dungeons a few nights ago trying to help her level up. She's new to the game, listens to my advice, learns well, but is still learning. She can do decent DPS but is still working on being self-reliant on survivability.

So we get a pug healer who is not really a healer. Whatever. It's normal, it's fine. I try a couple times to slot vigor for safety's sake, but they are chain pulling, so I give up and carry on. Fake-healer is a templar, so I figure who knows, maybe it'll work out.

Wrong. Tank leaves me and gf to deal with trash while he and the fake-heals go after the boss alone. That's cool, we pull them up into boss room and start killing, but they aggro on gf and kill her. Slowwwwwly. With so many opportunities to save her. So I type "lol, heals?" in group chat, pick her up off the floor, kill the boss (which fake-heals is just jabs-spamming to no avail), then watch as gf sits at half health, half health, half health, then dies again. (Her fault for standing in bad, but again, she's learning. It's ok; mistakes happen ... but she could've self-corrected in time to save herself if she'd had full health, js.)

We VtK and it passes, and then I get 30min of hate whispers about how I'm the bad one who is nearing max CP and can't self-sustain (because he was paying so little attention, he doesn't even realize I'm not the one who died). He's 200CP with the vmol skin he definitely wasn't carried for, what have I got to show for anything? I don't do epeen-measuring contests, so I just point out that he could have slotted BoL, popped it once, and gotten away with fake-healing no problem -- to which he replies, "I'm not trying to heal." Well, thanks for admitting that you queued for a role you had literally no intention of even attempting to fill, I guess? Sigh.

TL;DR: GF and I stopped risking pugs without pre-slotted self heals and shields if we're both on dps now, because the statistical likelihood of getting an actual tank or healer that isn't me is .. nil.

If you can solo a dungeon, cool, carry the group through it, fine whatever -- but please be aware that random group finder means you don't know what level of experience the other 3 players will have, and it is completely fair for someone to queue as dps expecting to get a tank and a healer as part of their team. You should not just assume that the other 3 players are also going to show up prepared to solo-speed-run a dungeon with you.

Anvilkos

Thanks for the Comments. Unfortunately My Guild, (myself included) for the most part, are not yet above cp 290. The Guild is pretty much new. I started it Over here after leaving WoW. (Best move I ever made) The question above was aimed at some of the Daily Dungeons for the Undaunted. AND the Fact that we JUST got into Vet Content... Yes, Some of the Non Vet, Non, DLC Dungeons we have Done with a Healer and 3 DPS.. But Queing up for a Vet Dungeon and Getting a NON-Tanking Sorc, or Nightblade is a bit Off-Putting... Still we tried to Go, But it just. Didn't. Work. That was my Question, and It has been more than answered.. Yes. It is Normal for Selfish people to do this. YES, It happens Often enough that it is considered "Tha Norm" No, (Other than putting Boot to Butt) there is no way to fix it....

RodneyRegis

That might be the case in premade/guild runs, but I've tanked vDS2 plenty of times in pugs and needed to taunt all the bigger netches (not the boss) to avoid the rest of the party being slapped to death, especially melee DPS. Obviously the higher the DPS the less need for a tank. Of course, if the fake tank has decent DPS it becomes self-fulfilling.

Eso101rus

I’m not gonna even mention normal dungeons, but as regards to vet fake tanks are making the queue time even longer for people genuinely queuing as dps. Even if a fake tank slots the inner fire taunt they are not providing a debuff for the group, thus decreasing the dps, increasing the dps queue time etc. Not to mention that they will be dancing around not keeping the boss still.

A more worrying issue is the fake dps who couldn’t hit a barn door with a banjo and the healers who turn up without shards or orbs and expect me to proc Alkosh from thin air....

richo262

Anvilkos wrote: »

Thanks for the Comments. Unfortunately My Guild, (myself included) for the most part, are not yet above cp 290. The Guild is pretty much new. I started it Over here after leaving WoW. (Best move I ever made) The question above was aimed at some of the Daily Dungeons for the Undaunted. AND the Fact that we JUST got into Vet Content... Yes, Some of the Non Vet, Non, DLC Dungeons we have Done with a Healer and 3 DPS.. But Queing up for a Vet Dungeon and Getting a NON-Tanking Sorc, or Nightblade is a bit Off-Putting... Still we tried to Go, But it just. Didn't. Work. That was my Question, and It has been more than answered.. Yes. It is Normal for Selfish people to do this. YES, It happens Often enough that it is considered "Tha Norm" No, (Other than putting Boot to Butt) there is no way to fix it....

I don't consider it selfish if they know what they are doing. It is selfish for a complete scrub that has no clue to come in with the wrong role and jeopardise the entire dungeon just because they wanted to skip the que.

It really depends on the dungeon and the behavior of the fake tank. Many dungeons are simply just not designed with tanks in mind. Most normal (non-dlc) dungeons now do not even require a tank.

On the scale of dickheadery it would go like this. 1 being massive, 6 being not at all.

1. Random veteran as a DPS fake tank with no clue what they are doing.
2. Specific veteran as a DPS fake tank with no clue what they are doing.
3. Specific veteran as a DPS fake tank, with knowledge but chose a hard dungeon or had no taunt equiped. (This puts a burden on the other players still)
3. Random normal as a DPS fake tank with no clue what they are doing. (Still risks landing on a DLC dungeon for XP)
4. Specific normal as a DPS fake tank with no clue what they are doing.
5. Specific normal as a DPS fake tank that has knowledge of the dungeon, does not even consider the role of tank.
6. Specific normal as a DPS fake tank that has knowledge of the dungeon, equips a taunt, controls the bosses, does the role of a tank well enough.


If you get number 6 in your group. That is actually better than a tank in many circumstances. You have a 'tank' that is outputting good DPS. The only drawback is the healer may need to be a little more attentive of him.

Salvas_Aren

Vaults of Madness:

1: does not move
2: does not move
3: can be tanked, but does not need to, skipable
4: can be tanked, but does not need to
5: weakling
6: can be skipped
7: cant be tanked
8: does not move

Anvilkos

richo262 wrote: »

Anvilkos wrote: »

Thanks for the Comments. Unfortunately My Guild, (myself included) for the most part, are not yet above cp 290. The Guild is pretty much new. I started it Over here after leaving WoW. (Best move I ever made) The question above was aimed at some of the Daily Dungeons for the Undaunted. AND the Fact that we JUST got into Vet Content... Yes, Some of the Non Vet, Non, DLC Dungeons we have Done with a Healer and 3 DPS.. But Queing up for a Vet Dungeon and Getting a NON-Tanking Sorc, or Nightblade is a bit Off-Putting... Still we tried to Go, But it just. Didn't. Work. That was my Question, and It has been more than answered.. Yes. It is Normal for Selfish people to do this. YES, It happens Often enough that it is considered "Tha Norm" No, (Other than putting Boot to Butt) there is no way to fix it....

I don't consider it selfish if they know what they are doing. It is selfish for a complete scrub that has no clue to come in with the wrong role and jeopardise the entire dungeon just because they wanted to skip the que.

It really depends on the dungeon and the behavior of the fake tank. Many dungeons are simply just not designed with tanks in mind. Most normal (non-dlc) dungeons now do not even require a tank.

On the scale of dickheadery it would go like this. 1 being massive, 6 being not at all.

1. Random veteran as a DPS fake tank with no clue what they are doing.
2. Specific veteran as a DPS fake tank with no clue what they are doing.
3. Specific veteran as a DPS fake tank, with knowledge but chose a hard dungeon or had no taunt equiped. (This puts a burden on the other players still)
3. Random normal as a DPS fake tank with no clue what they are doing. (Still risks landing on a DLC dungeon for XP)
4. Specific normal as a DPS fake tank with no clue what they are doing.
5. Specific normal as a DPS fake tank that has knowledge of the dungeon, does not even consider the role of tank.
6. Specific normal as a DPS fake tank that has knowledge of the dungeon, equips a taunt, controls the bosses, does the role of a tank well enough.


If you get number 6 in your group. That is actually better than a tank in many circumstances. You have a 'tank' that is outputting good DPS. The only drawback is the healer may need to be a little more attentive of him.

I have had #1, #2, and#4, as well as #6..... Mostly Numbers 1,2,and 4... While annoying.. We DO give them a chance to see which way it goes. a VERY small Percentage usually turns out good. Usually though, It turns out in the Group Facedown Dead and respawning....Several Times... On different Bosses...(and at least once on a zerg rush trash mob.. The "Tank" pulled three different rooms... Its These kinds of Fakes that chap my ass.

TheInfernalRage

Anvilkos wrote: »

The Last Few Times some of my Guildmates and I have done the Dungeon Que's we have,(for some reason), Gotten an Obviously DPS character who has Qued as a tank. While, Yes the DPS Que is stupid Long, It takes away from the group as a whole to be selfish and que as a Tank. These guys couldn't hold Aggro, and caused several group wipes. A Vote to kick was taken, and, that ended up with a Spam fest of Hate whispers from the individual who got kicked. My question is: 1. Is this Normal? 2. Does the DPS as Tank queing Happen often? and finally 3. Is there a way to fix this? (Other than actually getting into the Dungeon and Having to discover that your Tank ain't a Tank?)

I have 5 tanks now because of this. When you queue, having a tank and a healer ready is the most convenient.