DPS Queing as Tanks.

idk

D0PAMINE wrote: »

idk wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

If they can hold taunt on the big boss and priority adds, and they dont die every few second, thats all you need in normal. A tank doesn’t add much at that difficulty because nothing deals damage to be afraid of

Agreed. If more people who queued as a tank would hold aggro, than that's all that is important. If they can't do that or unwilling to, unless it's ok with the group, than a vote kick would be justified.

I recall being a healer with a fake tank. He was able to hold agro but was not smart enough to stay alive. He would not even hold block to Spawn of Mephala's PBAoE and would go from full health to dead. Hard to hold agro when you are dead. What was worse is he did not learn his lesson with the first death. He died to each and every PBAoE she did.

You can even move out of that but no. Bad tank and bad dps rolled up in one.

Yeah that's pretty bad. I just mist form it so im not kiting the boss around and risk getting pulled into the spider cave

It was pathetic since the speed of that attack I so slow someone could walk out of the area. I stopped queueing solo to help the GF because of dps that did not want to listen to mechanics (not because of low DPS) and I stopped queuing as a healer that can out dps I found in GF because of lousy fake tanks that would make bad dps to begin with.

thorwyn

I usually give them the benefit of the doubt. Just like I do with fake healers. If it's a normal dungeon and if the "faker" is doing something constructive, then it's fine by me. Even a DD slotting a heal and proccing it every now and then is more than enough for most dungeons on normal difficulty. What I will not tolerate are healers or tanks who are wielding a bow and pew pew pew pew throughout the entire dungeon. That's a kick.

BrokenGameMechanics

It is BS and the way to stop it is to call it out more and always vote to kick. These folks always say they could solo it on their own, yet, clearly most of them are at best so-so DPS. Their belief that it just doesn't matter is also BS. Again the majority of them just don't understand the game enough to realize the rest of the group inevitably is compensating for them. And finally more often then not, they SLOW down the run the majority of the time as the real DPS have to compensate and it is not uncommon at all to have an encounter go to hell in a hand basket with everyone running around as the boss switches aggro. An out and out full wipe is not uncommon.

Basically, the majority of queuing DPS as tanks are sub-par players who think, somehow, they are exceptional, who bring far more problems that prevents a smooth run then their paltry DPS brings to the group.

If you want to solve it, it is really simple. Vote to kick them, consistently, and every time. Queue up as a fake tank and get kicked 4-5 times in a row will definitely solve the problem.

Now some will now say that this is why they always run with a buddy and queue up fake together so they can't get kicked. This also happens fairly often. At this point all I do is follow along, watch some TV, and let them do all the work.

Haojin

if its normal dungeon, you should not have a tank or healer in group if you looking for fast run(700+ cp). if it's veteran, 3 dd + tank or healer (with taunt) is way to go.

SoLooney

Most vet dungeons can be done with 4 dps, I'll admit a fake tank on vet dlc dungeons is a huge pain

Normals should not be a problem as long whoever has aggro doesnt kite boss out of dots

But that's why I only run dungeons with friends and guildies, saves a lot of headache

Austinseph1

I always confront them, they are the worst. I make sure to let them know before they get the boot of it wasn’t a mistake. If it was a mistake I will let them know, but still they don’t get to stay. If they have 20k hp and don’t taunt the first boss the whole fight and it runs around 1 shotting healers and dps it’s quite obvious. It may be better easier in normal dungeons but in vet that don’t fly 😂

zvavi

The best way to avoid it, imo, is to be able to tank/heal it yourself, and most classes have access to it, especially stamina toons, vigor is f***ing op, also, when i do fake tank/fake heal, i always have a taunt/heal for group, but you know, dont expect me to heal dds that stand in stupid on the other side of the map, i barely do it when i heal on my real healer.

Arunei

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

So you are stamina NB using magica taunt ?
Should be efective....
There are tons of craftable starting tank sets. Easy to upgrade to epic. You can use thus till you get your proper sets done.
Missing 1 items is not a excuse to dw tank.
Cant blame them for the kick:)

A good tank will have both Magicka and Stamina for buffs, heals, taunts, etc, since most of their Stam will be getting used for blocking, bashing, breaking free, and dodging. So yes actually, it is effective. It's also effective to grab aggro on ranged mobs who are out of range of Puncture and your pull; you can keep them attacking you until you can maneuver closer to pull them.

More importantly, why does it matter if a person is using DW for tanking as long as they can fulfill the role? It sounds super elitist to say "Yeah you deserve a kick for not using gear to the exact specifications that meta tanks use" and completely ignore if this person is still wearing suitable gear, has the health to stay alive while tanking, and is otherwise handling the role as well as any SnB tank.

daemonios

I am highly critical of ESO, but if you ask me one of its best points is that group dungeons remain much more relevant than in other games with stronger vertical progression, both in terms of challenge (though power creep is still a thing) and rewards (many base game dungeon sets are highly relevant for meta and non meta builds).

Having left ESO for 2 years, among other things I dabbled in LotRO a bit. Practically nobody was running low level instances, and those that were to help newbies like me simply raced through them. I would welcome measures by ZOS to prevent burning through dungeons because of the effect it has on new players. In my opinion, retaining the replay value of dungeons is more important than letting older players get their carrot in the least amount of time possible.

Gulnagel

So how do you make tanking more appealing so people actually want to play it?

We only have "fake tanks" as a result of it being a boring playstylr. No AoE taunts, abysmal damage in solo quests, if you get bad dps players and it happens a lot in pugs you just sit there thinking about leaving and wait that 1 hour to get in on your Dps and still save time, since the group you had with your tank probably still noodle their way through said dungeon.

At least healers are more forgiving, have abilities that are fun, it's easier and you can solo quest with good dmg.

So how do we get people to actually want to play legit tanks?

richo262

me_ming wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

Yeah que for a vet as a tank and you should get booted. Save for a couple.

DarkShade 2 comes to mind.

Boss 1 - He stands still and does a fire spin attack. Taunt is useless, damage is to be dodged, not tanked.
Boss 2 - Easy burn, can be tanked, but ultimately not required
Boss 3 - Often skipped
Boss 4 - The netch has a mind of its own, cannot be taunted. Taunt is useless.
Boss 5 - A bunch of ads, tank is only useful for taunting the big guys, but they usually drop quickly.
Final Boss - This guy is on rails, taunt is useless on him. The ads are all ranged and their attacks pass through you (damaging anybody standing in front, or behind you). The only thing a tank can do is chain them close to boss. Final boss is really just a test of the healer, not the tank. A non-DK tank is totally useless on the final boss. A DK Tank is only useful for chains.

Verdict on vDS2. 3 DPS 1 Healer is by far the optimal setup on normal, veteran and veteran HM. Tank is really just a passenger.

There are a few vets like this. There are also many that without a tank you are screwed.

A lot of people seem to think that taunt is the only job a tank should do. There is more to tanking than just taunting. And while yes, while I agree that DC2 is a dungeon where taunt is more or less useless, I still think that having a tank makes the run easier.

Taunting is one of the things that a tank should do, but what separates a good tank from the best tank is more than just knowing what to taunt, now, I don't have a tank (tanking in ESO is the only game I honestly can't tank), but I know when my group has a competent tank versus someone who just is a tank. Tanking is even more than just debuffing, the best tanks knows how to control the ads, because unfortunately (and I don't know why) this game does not have an AoE taunt, knowing how to group ads or position the boss and ads so that the dps-es can easily stack their AoE and kill mobs more effectively, all this and at the same time knowing how to position the boss and the ads so everyone else in the groups receives the least amount of damage is when you know that the tank knows what they are doing.

I main a tank, I have tanked everything that comes to mind on vet. CP1000+. Yet to do BRP, mostly because nothing in there is interesting. I can tell you, as a very experienced tank, that tanking on vDS2 is very much an exercise in not doing much.

"There is more to a tank than taunting" also "It is more about knowing what to taunt" ... yet, nothing in that dungeon that is worth taunting, is tauntable. I can assure you, tanking vDS2 is mostly doing nothing. Applying Alkosh / Crushing / Weaken vs having an extra 30k+dps ... its a no brainer.

As I said, clearly, there are several dungeons in which the bosses are untauntable, meaning, you cannot keep it still, meaning no matter what you do, AOE will never be effective. Those dungeons are the ones where taunting / tanking generally is actually really not very useful, and the benefit of having a tank is less than having an extra 30k dps.

Assuming the group is not all scrubs, vDS2 is always more effective as 3dps 1 healer.

richo262

Gulnagel wrote: »

So how do you make tanking more appealing so people actually want to play it?

We only have "fake tanks" as a result of it being a boring playstylr. No AoE taunts, abysmal damage in solo quests, if you get bad dps players and it happens a lot in pugs you just sit there thinking about leaving and wait that 1 hour to get in on your Dps and still save time, since the group you had with your tank probably still noodle their way through said dungeon.

At least healers are more forgiving, have abilities that are fun, it's easier and you can solo quest with good dmg.

So how do we get people to actually want to play legit tanks?

Making a tank is undesirable because it cannot quest easily.

It is too much of a chore to swap out a stam dps to be a tank.

If it was a simple gear swap, skill swap, then it would be much easier. Instead you may need to pay gold to adjust attributes, or CP.

Swapping out a Mag DPS to healer is just a simple gear swap, but turning a Stam DPS to a tank can be a chore. If ZOS made it much easier to just swap out between loadouts, then yes, every Stam DPS has the potential to make a reasonable tank viable in all vet dungeons.

Then you have the problem that some may not want to or have the capacity to carry around 2 sets. I'd like to see items crafted with master writs become 'collectibles'. If you complete a master writ, it essentially becomes unlocked and easily accessible by the player. They are far from BIS items, but they would get a great deal more use if they were easy to access for swapping out in times of necessity.

Betty_Booms

Ive been queing tank farming normal Arx at the moment. DPS sorc with matriach heals. After the first few runs I slotted a taunt. I lost count of how many lowbies i spead run through there. Im sure they were greatful although some peole do want the conventional experience and difficulty that comes with it. For those people maybe que as a full group.

Is the OP specifically talking about vet?

Riejael

Group I run with has very simple and easy requirements for the tank role. 25k+ HP, a taunt, and Sword & Shield or Frost Staff. If a DPS queues and has all those three things. They may stay. Otherwise they get booted. Doesn't matter what dungeon it is, could be Fungal Grotto for all we care.

Our belief is you need to run a tank for the quick queue, or find a buddy who plays a tank and queue with them. Reason for this is principle. Its the choice we've made. No amount of beration, pleading, reasoning, or whatever will change our minds.

We get hate tells, and report those who cross the line. If you thought the queue was long for DPS. Lets see how a three to seven day suspension feels. Which some of these players have experienced.

Betty_Booms

Riejael wrote: »

Group I run with has very simple and easy requirements for the tank role. 25k+ HP, a taunt, and Sword & Shield or Frost Staff. If a DPS queues and has all those three things. They may stay. Otherwise they get booted. Doesn't matter what dungeon it is, could be Fungal Grotto for all we care.

Our belief is you need to run a tank for the quick queue, or find a buddy who plays a tank and queue with them. Reason for this is principle. Its the choice we've made. No amount of beration, pleading, reasoning, or whatever will change our minds.

We get hate tells, and report those who cross the line. If you thought the queue was long for DPS. Lets see how a three to seven day suspension feels. Which some of these players have experienced.

The fact that those stats arent required for most normal dungeons pretty well suggests you are just a troll. No offence but no one knows about your silly little standards before queing and it is highly unfair for you to kick them if they have the means to do the job...sounds like you deserve all the hate tells you get...and baiting the poor souls into bans... you should be ashamed...

FrancisCrawford

Eso101rus wrote: »

I’m not gonna even mention normal dungeons, but as regards to vet fake tanks are making the queue time even longer for people genuinely queuing as dps. Even if a fake tank slots the inner fire taunt they are not providing a debuff for the group, thus decreasing the dps, increasing the dps queue time etc. Not to mention that they will be dancing around not keeping the boss still.

A more worrying issue is the fake dps who couldn’t hit a barn door with a banjo and the healers who turn up without shards or orbs and expect me to proc Alkosh from thin air....

Always worth a reminder in threads like these -- the normal/veteran distinction is really important. The easier half of the dungeons, in normal mode, were designed for people with incomplete builds. If I bring a healer without shards/orbs, I'll sa so at the start of the dungeon. But unless it's a fairly easy run or a dungeon-oriented event week, I won't be there on such a healer in the first place.

Salvas_Aren

me_ming wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

Yeah que for a vet as a tank and you should get booted. Save for a couple.

DarkShade 2 comes to mind.

Boss 1 - He stands still and does a fire spin attack. Taunt is useless, damage is to be dodged, not tanked.
Boss 2 - Easy burn, can be tanked, but ultimately not required
Boss 3 - Often skipped
Boss 4 - The netch has a mind of its own, cannot be taunted. Taunt is useless.
Boss 5 - A bunch of ads, tank is only useful for taunting the big guys, but they usually drop quickly.
Final Boss - This guy is on rails, taunt is useless on him. The ads are all ranged and their attacks pass through you (damaging anybody standing in front, or behind you). The only thing a tank can do is chain them close to boss. Final boss is really just a test of the healer, not the tank. A non-DK tank is totally useless on the final boss. A DK Tank is only useful for chains.

Verdict on vDS2. 3 DPS 1 Healer is by far the optimal setup on normal, veteran and veteran HM. Tank is really just a passenger.

There are a few vets like this. There are also many that without a tank you are screwed.

A lot of people seem to think that taunt is the only job a tank should do. There is more to tanking than just taunting. And while yes, while I agree that DC2 is a dungeon where taunt is more or less useless, I still think that having a tank makes the run easier.

Taunting is one of the things that a tank should do, but what separates a good tank from the best tank is more than just knowing what to taunt, now, I don't have a tank (tanking in ESO is the only game I honestly can't tank), but I know when my group has a competent tank versus someone who just is a tank. Tanking is even more than just debuffing, the best tanks knows how to control the ads, because unfortunately (and I don't know why) this game does not have an AoE taunt, knowing how to group ads or position the boss and ads so that the dps-es can easily stack their AoE and kill mobs more effectively, all this and at the same time knowing how to position the boss and the ads so everyone else in the groups receives the least amount of damage is when you know that the tank knows what they are doing.

Awww, this is the point where the discussion might become ugly.

If we would spread out this discussion, we would end up at tank, fake tank and bad tank, but as well at DD, fake DD and bad DD.

See, there is more about a DD than doing damage. Doing lots of damage, avoiding body pulls or doing them right, playing with the environment, like grouping mob balls in small tunnels and burning them down, knowing base mechanics and making use of them, like skipping mob groups, sneaking, using disguises, providing at least one self heal or burst heal, maybe bringing several gears.

I'd rather run a normal with a fake tank than a fake DD. I don't care if someone dies once or twice to a mob ball, as long as the final boss gets burned down in reasonable time.

FrancisCrawford

Vercingetorix wrote: »

So how do we get people to actually want to play legit tanks?

The most impactful easy change would be to eliminate respec costs for attribute points.

That would let people change their characters from tank to solo builds and back much more easily.

The healer shortage causes a lot less aggravation than the tank one, because most magicka characters can easily respec to heal.

pelle412

If you're specced as a tank, heavy armor, sword/shield (at least on one bar), attributes balanced well, and blue cp into healing, you're gonna do *** damage. Very few people want to play a damage sponge that can't progress enjoyably well on their own without a respec. In other MMOs, tanks obviously do less damage than a pure DPS but not like in ESO where the damage spread between a tank and a DPS is like 10X.

richo262

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

So how do we get people to actually want to play legit tanks?

The most impactful easy change would be to eliminate respec costs for attribute points.

That would let people change their characters from tank to solo builds and back much more easily.

The healer shortage causes a lot less aggravation than the tank one, because most magicka characters can easily respec to heal.

This, I would have either attributes scrapped entirely and enchants buffed, or have attributes as something that doesnt lock in place, can constantly be modified. It isn't just the cost, it is the constantly running to a shrine and back. It is a real pain if you are offtanking nMOL and after 2nd boss want to change out to a DPS. Gotta be all-stam for that to be effective.

The other thing is, not many people would want to, or can carry around two entire tanking sets. They should make master writ completions collectibles. Meaning, if I complete an Armor Master sword, Purple, Wood Elf, Infused, it unlocks in my collectibles. If I later complete an Armor Master sword, Gold, Nord, Defending, it turns that unlock into Gold grade, with the choice of setting it to be Wood Elf / Nord with Infused / Defending trait.

Craftable sets are nowhere near BIS, which is good, they are ideal sets for 'it sure would be handy if I had some sort of sword / board right about now' moments.

Nogawd

Normals are solo territory. 4 dps burn through them very fast and are most fun, IMO.

On my main healer, even in most vets, I will prefer 3 good dps.

Swiftfox_Bouncyface

Gatviper wrote: »

Happens very often, and if it does I don't participate in any kicking, I just leave the group directly myself. No respect from me for people like that, no matter their reasons. If you queue in for your role, then do your role, basta.

This would have worked if the DDs would actually do their job, but since vast majority does maybe 10k DPS at best, why would tanks bother falling asleep tanking while their DDs do close to no damage?

Agenericname

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

So how do we get people to actually want to play legit tanks?

The most impactful easy change would be to eliminate respec costs for attribute points.

That would let people change their characters from tank to solo builds and back much more easily.

The healer shortage causes a lot less aggravation than the tank one, because most magicka characters can easily respec to heal.

After enough CP it becomes a moot point. Overland is rather easy and simply changing gear, abilities and food is more than enough to complete any or all overland/questing. For newer players it is likely more difficult and I wish they would consider something like a dual spec. Keep the costs, but allow a player to switch back and forth between 2 preset builds (out of combat) for no cost.

I don't think that would eliminate the shortage though. The shortage isn't as much in tanks, it's tanks in the RDF.

I enjoy tanking. I tank on multiple characters now, but I don't like PUGing with them. As a tank you have choices, many make the same one I do, for various reasons. It isn't that we need an AOE taunt or more damage, tanks just have more options.

Sometimes you end up with a group that burns everything. Sometimes you end up with new players. Both are fine with me. Sometimes you end up with the others. Sometimes you end up in direfrost with someone yelling at you for not taunting the main boss. I can go into guild chat or the friends list and say "pledges?", have a group, and know exactly what I'm getting.

My suggestion to some would be to roll a tank. Enjoy the fast queues or avoid them altogether if you want.

John_Falstaff

Cortimi wrote: »

Hell, I used to get kicked simply for being a dual-wielding Dunmer sNB tank (you ever tanked with the dual-wield Ulti? Sooooo nice), even though I had around 35k HP. Not my fault it was easier to get an Ebon dagger than a shield and people don't understand that ranged taunts exist.

Just as an aside, unrelated to the topic: don't use Ebon in weapons. It's bugged. During bar swap, your health stays okay, but everyone else's flickers as bonus drops for a moment. Run it in body/jewelry.

Riejael

Betty_Booms wrote: »

Riejael wrote: »

Group I run with has very simple and easy requirements for the tank role. 25k+ HP, a taunt, and Sword & Shield or Frost Staff. If a DPS queues and has all those three things. They may stay. Otherwise they get booted. Doesn't matter what dungeon it is, could be Fungal Grotto for all we care.

Our belief is you need to run a tank for the quick queue, or find a buddy who plays a tank and queue with them. Reason for this is principle. Its the choice we've made. No amount of beration, pleading, reasoning, or whatever will change our minds.

We get hate tells, and report those who cross the line. If you thought the queue was long for DPS. Lets see how a three to seven day suspension feels. Which some of these players have experienced.

The fact that those stats arent required for most normal dungeons pretty well suggests you are just a troll. No offence but no one knows about your silly little standards before queing and it is highly unfair for you to kick them if they have the means to do the job...sounds like you deserve all the hate tells you get...and baiting the poor souls into bans... you should be ashamed...

They do now in this thread. I am not ashamed and we have literally kicked 3-4 people in a row for doing so. It is the will of the group, 3 vs 1. Democracy rules. We don't care if those stats are needed or not, we don't care if it hurts feelings, and we don't care if people get banned for stepping out of line.

Its just simply how it will be. As I said, the decision has been made. Period.

If you feel the need to be the little do-gooder you think you are, spread the word to DPS you know of the requirements. Or not, and let them be booted if by chance they end up queued with us. That's your choice. Our choice has been made.

A guy in our group made the case for the requirements, the rest agreed. We usually run 4 of us. But sometimes due to scheduling conflicts, we have to run 3. So when we do, and we need a tank, we pick up one from the groupfinder. We determined that one queuing for a tank should be a tank. Sorry you and people who think like you were not included in that discussion, but that's just how it goes.

Anvilkos

Betty_Booms wrote: »

Ive been queing tank farming normal Arx at the moment. DPS sorc with matriach heals. After the first few runs I slotted a taunt. I lost count of how many lowbies i spead run through there. Im sure they were greatful although some peole do want the conventional experience and difficulty that comes with it. For those people maybe que as a full group.

Is the OP specifically talking about vet?

No, I was Talking about Dungeons in General. As Far as "Speed Running" Through a Dungeon that the Guild is Learning, or a Vet Dungeon for the First time, While having a High CP Player in the Group is Good, Most of them Want to just whip through with no thought to us lower level players that are learning/questing through it. (Annoying AF) We have actually requested the player slow down a bit.... Which then resulted in a wall of group chat invectives and then that player dropping group. Sadly, at the time of the post, It was a Problem. Happily, that problem has been solved.

Salvas_Aren

So a tank has to show up with the front bar up, if you spot the backbar with DW he gets kicked?

Well, the tanks might be happy not to carry you.

sherahd

My thoughts have always been... Do your job. If you queue as a fake tank and have 15k health, don't slot Inner Fire, and don't even try to up your resistances... You are going to die a lot and make the run a nightmare. Lots of wipes and such. Same for fake healers... Have a heal or two slotted and actually attempt to heal and no one will care or kick you. It's when people queue up as fake roles but don't even try to do their job is when people have a problem. That's when you are basically saying "I'm above waiting for a DPS queue time, putting in any effort to try to do what I queued as, while expecting you to deal with carrying me... Because, I'm a pretty-pretty princess!" That's what causes posts like this.