mairwen85 wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

What's up with the players in that video? Slowest BG I've seen in a long time. Uhm...

group of more experienced players farms less organized players one by one. i have video from the other side of barricades form unexperienced one. its even slower.

So... potato farming then?

LOL, there it is. Sorry, but I’m not in a potato farming MMR tier.

oxygen_thief wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

What's up with the players in that video? Slowest BG I've seen in a long time. Uhm...

group of more experienced players farms less organized players one by one. i have video from the other side of barricades form unexperienced one. its even slower. i need to make few fresh records for such a threads
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV5l8CF6APA

What? We were a random group, against other randoms. Everyone in our MMR tier is “experienced” — there are just differing skill levels on display here. That Warden on my team is pretty notorious and is usually the person I focus when we’re on opposing teams. It just so happened that we ended up on the same team for this round.

Aren’t you the guy who was “skeptical” of my video in which I got 17 kills on my sorc because I didn’t post my build? Spend less time needlessly heavy attacking, and you might be able hit 17 kills too.

@Ayastigi

I couldn’t care less. I have played my Sorcs through all the times of glory and woe and will continue to do so. These kind of threads just get really old fast because they always have the same arguments going back and forth in a circle.

Stamplar certainly doesn’t need buffs. MagBlade may need some adjustments and tweaks, the changes are a bit weird this round. Still, there are plenty of builds out there that perform quite nicely - not least because there are so many bad players everywhere.

Aurielle wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

What's up with the players in that video? Slowest BG I've seen in a long time. Uhm...

group of more experienced players farms less organized players one by one. i have video from the other side of barricades form unexperienced one. its even slower. i need to make few fresh records for such a threads
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV5l8CF6APA

What? We were a random group, against other randoms. Everyone in our MMR tier is “experienced” — there are just differing skill levels on display here. That Warden on my team is pretty notorious and is usually the person I focus when we’re on opposing teams. It just so happened that we ended up on the same team for this round.

Aren’t you the guy who was “skeptical” of my video in which I got 17 kills on my sorc because I didn’t post my build? Spend less time needlessly heavy attacking, and you might be able hit 17 kills too.

there is nothing to discuss if your opponents cant even group up, stack heals and focus you while you hunt them down 4vs1. i dont mean its bad. youve done well but it doesnt prove you build is viable

Ayastigi wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Ayastigi

I couldn’t care less. I have played my Sorcs through all the times of glory and woe and will continue to do so. These kind of threads just get really old fast because they always have the same arguments going back and forth in a circle.

Stamplar certainly doesn’t need buffs. MagBlade may need some adjustments and tweaks, the changes are a bit weird this round. Still, there are plenty of builds out there that perform quite nicely - not least because there are so many bad players everywhere.

Yea they are tiring but to me they still need to be had. I think medium armor stamplar could def use a buff. Not a direct buff but an indirect buff to shuffle to give more snare immunity. It's hard to find a reason for shuffle sometimes but it always makes it on my bar anyway..but maybe the race against time changes will open up more options as most of us use channeled acceleration on stamplar anyway

Stamplar? No. Medium? Could need a deep look at. I guess next patch everyone will either play light or heavy with Rally and Race against Time. Especially if Fury and 7th stay as they are. There is just no compelling argument in favor of medium at the moment.

Ayastigi wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you put 100 brand new players on various classes, sorcs will seem like they are the strongest. If you put 100 experienced players on all the classes, sorc will sink near the bottom. There is no secret that sorcs are the easiest class to play effectively, but most powerful? Not by a longshot. They have very straight forward offensive and defensive rotations, and they are ranged, so it's easy to pick off unsuspecting players, but that is about where their advantage ends.

Just not true. In high level dueling tourneys sorcs usually finish 1 or 2 in recent months. In solo pvp sorcs are best equipped. I like sorcs and don't want them changed I want other classes brought up to par. Sorc's mobility is one thing other classes could benefit from. Streak makes major expedition unnecessary in a lot of scenarios and with race against times upcoming changes it'll be even better. Right now even without the snare change to race against time there is no better kiting combo then race against time and streak, it' makes re positioning a breeze. Every time somebody brings up how powerful sorcs are you all say that they are only good at potato smashing. That's a false narrative that y'all use to deter and derail the conversation.

- Dueling Tournaments have rules. Specifically, removing abilties and hardcounters that are considered overpowered for 1v1. If you think magicka Sorc is too good in dueling tournaments, change the rules, don't use the tournaments as evidence for balance in different environments.

- Race against Time will be useful on magicka Sorc in open world, but not to the extend it will be on other classes, say magicka NB. In fact, it is already a great skill on Sorc as they can evade a lot of snares and make good use of the sprint cost reduction.

- Pre Summerset, Sorc was in a largely subpar state, then Rune Cage got buffed enough to push their unavoidable damage combo into OP territory. With it's subsequent nerf, Rune Cage is no longer useable in burst combos at all due to the increased delay, making Sorc more of a potatoe masher than it ever was. Delayed Burst is great if you have the tools to guarantee enough of it and/or retain an element of surprise. Neither is true for magicka Sorc today.

Aurielle wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Why is everybody acting like sorcs aren't in a great spot in pvp..nobody said anything about nerfing but y'all are coming here in droves talking about how underpowered sorcs are. Do you even take yourself seriously when you say these things?

Thing is, this is not the first time in recent weeks that you started a thread stating that mag sorcs are/feel overpowered to you. You could easily have continued the discussion in your older thread, but you choose to start a new one instead.

Calling a class overpowered IS a nerv request.

Last thread was derailed by everybody saying sorc is only good at potato killing or that wardens are op so no need to talk about sorcs. Started a new one to see if it stays on topic..but sure enough nope. Also, you're wrong. Calling a class powerful is not a nerf request.

I am actually so tired of the “sorc kills potatoes” argument, because it is so blatantly false, and is 100% pushed by sorcs who have not yet learned to play.

I’m in the process of uploading an amusing video in which myself and a stam warden completely dominated a BG — and I only realized at the end of it that I had the wrong freaking helm equipped (meaning my kill count would have been higher). I’d really like someone to explain to me why a stamden spamming shalks and S2W is considered to legitimately earn a kill, while a magsorc using a rotation of Curse, Reach, Frags, and Fury is “kill stealing.”

Aurielle wrote: »

Dang, it uploaded quickly.

https://youtu.be/JnH0HPDgv9s

I’m very tired at the moment, and was literally half asleep throughout that match. I showed my build at the end, because people get triggered and doubt you when you claim you can do well on a magsorc and don’t post your build. Hilariously, I only realized at the end of the match that I’d forgotten to re-equip Skoria after trying to put together an outfit for my Necromancer...

So yeah, 12 kills, 0 deaths, and without my full monster set equipped. And this was a sloppy match for me, in which I let buffs drop and didn’t manage my magicka well.

Ignoring your performance then, your build, even with the right hat, is frankly terrible, and so were most of the enemies, in addition to many kills being scored against locally outnumbered targets. If anything, it's a perfect demonstration on why mag Sorc is considered such a potatoe masher. There is nothing in your build that would even be troubling for a good player, including mag Sorcs.

As for stamina Warden combos, they are generally easy to avoid or block as well, but the non targeted shalks have both a higher skill floor and ceiling than Curse based combos, as you can retain an element of surprise and are not locked in on a target before the final burst. Stamina Wardens and Sorcerers both have additional pressure tools available in twin slashes/poison injection and pets respectively, though the Sorc loses theirs if you restrict yourself to non pet builds. This makes dealing with good players especially difficult, which is why, assuming you want non pet sorc to be a thing, they must be considered independently for that purpose.
But as for why Fury is considered a "kill stealing" skill? Because it is. It is currently underperforming in PvP for anything but deathmatch BGs, where it's main purpose is scoring deathblows against an enemy when pushed into execute range by the third team. It is even a trade-off to put into the BG build as your team's potential to directly take on one opposing team decreases.

Aurielle wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Sorc #1 offense is stealing kills with their mages wrath. It makes them a bit cheesy, but not so much overpowered. You beating up on a bunch of potatoes isn’t gonna convince me that Sorc is so strong everything else needs a buff to keep up.

Try fighting a Stamplar that knows what they’re doing or a freaking mag DK or warden. Let’s not even get into WW.

Sorc is easy to figure out kind of and start getting ok with. If you fight someone that knows their class, whatever that may be; the easy good/ok is not gonna be enough.

I’m going to ask what I asked earlier: why is it that stamdens, who are notorious for spin-to-win spam in BGs, are not accused of “kill stealing,” while sorcs who use wrath/fury as part of their rotation are? And again with the potato comment... you know that anyone can kill potatoes, right? Sorcs can and do kill skilled players all the time — I know this from considerable personal experience.

Unlike Fury however, Steel Tornado, as well as any other execute in the game other than Fury, must be cast in the moment, giving the team pushing a player into execute range fair opportunity to finish them. If (exactly) one player can keep up Fury on an enemy in trouble, they will get the kill as soon as the target's health falls below 20%, provided that one execute is enough to finish them. The same can not be said about Steel Tornado.

Aurielle wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Not slotting a pet is only gimping yourself, you get so much for giving up two bar slots there are no pvp setups without a pet that trump a pet build.

Maybe in open world, but not in BGs. I kill pet sorcs every day with my no-pet build. Pet sorcs generally don’t build with defense in mind, because they rely overmuch on pets for free mitigation and heals. Pet builds are only effective in BGs when multiple pet sorcs are tightly stacked to frustrate your targeting efforts. Also, the Matriarch’s heal is lacklustre in no CP. I’d much rather have the two extra skills and rely on Life Giver during those moments when the midden hits the windmill.

On the contrary, Pets are more powerful the less players participate in a fight and the smaller the area. In open world they are strong, in BGs more so and even more in duels.
Your argument that pet sorcs don't build with defense in mind also makes little sense; sure, if someone decides they are just going to ignore defense and get beaten for it, that's hardly a problem. The reality however is that pet Sorcs have much better opportunity to build defensively as they get both extra pressure and defense from their pets (more than alternative skills could provide), as well as access to necropotence as a superior offense + defense set. A good player will perform better on a pet build than on a non pet build, especially if you exclude open world PvP.

Feanor wrote: »

Just another Sorc thread. I thought that it had dawned on the community that

- 30-0 BG scores are no proper assessment of any class, just shows how good your class is at kill stealing
- that dueling isn’t a measure of class balance either
- that there is quite the difference between non-pet and pet Sorc, and in CP and noCP
- that the only thing “OP” about pet Sorcs is the available LoS because of the abysmal targeting

Play a pet Sorc open world Cyrodiil and I doubt it’s really “OP” - not more than say, a StamWarden or a StamNB or a block-casting Templar.

except a templar who block heals doesnt kill anything.

its the same as if you were to spam shields in a 1v1 and stand still. Magicka templar has been the worst for a long time in solo pvp and will remain such. You mentioned they can heal on sweeps, lul, good luck using that as an actual heal in any fight. Thats even if your target is standing still, which is not going to happen and you will miss 90% of your sweeps.

ToRelax wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you put 100 brand new players on various classes, sorcs will seem like they are the strongest. If you put 100 experienced players on all the classes, sorc will sink near the bottom. There is no secret that sorcs are the easiest class to play effectively, but most powerful? Not by a longshot. They have very straight forward offensive and defensive rotations, and they are ranged, so it's easy to pick off unsuspecting players, but that is about where their advantage ends.

Just not true. In high level dueling tourneys sorcs usually finish 1 or 2 in recent months. In solo pvp sorcs are best equipped. I like sorcs and don't want them changed I want other classes brought up to par. Sorc's mobility is one thing other classes could benefit from. Streak makes major expedition unnecessary in a lot of scenarios and with race against times upcoming changes it'll be even better. Right now even without the snare change to race against time there is no better kiting combo then race against time and streak, it' makes re positioning a breeze. Every time somebody brings up how powerful sorcs are you all say that they are only good at potato smashing. That's a false narrative that y'all use to deter and derail the conversation.

- Dueling Tournaments have rules. Specifically, removing abilties and hardcounters that are considered overpowered for 1v1. If you think magicka Sorc is too good in dueling tournaments, change the rules, don't use the tournaments as evidence for balance in different environments.

- Race against Time will be useful on magicka Sorc in open world, but not to the extend it will be on other classes, say magicka NB. In fact, it is already a great skill on Sorc as they can evade a lot of snares and make good use of the sprint cost reduction.

- Pre Summerset, Sorc was in a largely subpar state, then Rune Cage got buffed enough to push their unavoidable damage combo into OP territory. With it's subsequent nerf, Rune Cage is no longer useable in burst combos at all due to the increased delay, making Sorc more of a potatoe masher than it ever was. Delayed Burst is great if you have the tools to guarantee enough of it and/or retain an element of surprise. Neither is true for magicka Sorc today.

Aurielle wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Why is everybody acting like sorcs aren't in a great spot in pvp..nobody said anything about nerfing but y'all are coming here in droves talking about how underpowered sorcs are. Do you even take yourself seriously when you say these things?

Thing is, this is not the first time in recent weeks that you started a thread stating that mag sorcs are/feel overpowered to you. You could easily have continued the discussion in your older thread, but you choose to start a new one instead.

Calling a class overpowered IS a nerv request.

Last thread was derailed by everybody saying sorc is only good at potato killing or that wardens are op so no need to talk about sorcs. Started a new one to see if it stays on topic..but sure enough nope. Also, you're wrong. Calling a class powerful is not a nerf request.

I am actually so tired of the “sorc kills potatoes” argument, because it is so blatantly false, and is 100% pushed by sorcs who have not yet learned to play.

I’m in the process of uploading an amusing video in which myself and a stam warden completely dominated a BG — and I only realized at the end of it that I had the wrong freaking helm equipped (meaning my kill count would have been higher). I’d really like someone to explain to me why a stamden spamming shalks and S2W is considered to legitimately earn a kill, while a magsorc using a rotation of Curse, Reach, Frags, and Fury is “kill stealing.”

Aurielle wrote: »

Dang, it uploaded quickly.

https://youtu.be/JnH0HPDgv9s

I’m very tired at the moment, and was literally half asleep throughout that match. I showed my build at the end, because people get triggered and doubt you when you claim you can do well on a magsorc and don’t post your build. Hilariously, I only realized at the end of the match that I’d forgotten to re-equip Skoria after trying to put together an outfit for my Necromancer...

So yeah, 12 kills, 0 deaths, and without my full monster set equipped. And this was a sloppy match for me, in which I let buffs drop and didn’t manage my magicka well.

Ignoring your performance then, your build, even with the right hat, is frankly terrible, and so were most of the enemies, in addition to many kills being scored against locally outnumbered targets. If anything, it's a perfect demonstration on why mag Sorc is considered such a potatoe masher. There is nothing in your build that would even be troubling for a good player, including mag Sorcs.

As for stamina Warden combos, they are generally easy to avoid or block as well, but the non targeted shalks have both a higher skill floor and ceiling than Curse based combos, as you can retain an element of surprise and are not locked in on a target before the final burst. Stamina Wardens and Sorcerers both have additional pressure tools available in twin slashes/poison injection and pets respectively, though the Sorc loses theirs if you restrict yourself to non pet builds. This makes dealing with good players especially difficult, which is why, assuming you want non pet sorc to be a thing, they must be considered independently for that purpose.
But as for why Fury is considered a "kill stealing" skill? Because it is. It is currently underperforming in PvP for anything but deathmatch BGs, where it's main purpose is scoring deathblows against an enemy when pushed into execute range by the third team. It is even a trade-off to put into the BG build as your team's potential to directly take on one opposing team decreases.

Aurielle wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Sorc #1 offense is stealing kills with their mages wrath. It makes them a bit cheesy, but not so much overpowered. You beating up on a bunch of potatoes isn’t gonna convince me that Sorc is so strong everything else needs a buff to keep up.

Try fighting a Stamplar that knows what they’re doing or a freaking mag DK or warden. Let’s not even get into WW.

Sorc is easy to figure out kind of and start getting ok with. If you fight someone that knows their class, whatever that may be; the easy good/ok is not gonna be enough.

I’m going to ask what I asked earlier: why is it that stamdens, who are notorious for spin-to-win spam in BGs, are not accused of “kill stealing,” while sorcs who use wrath/fury as part of their rotation are? And again with the potato comment... you know that anyone can kill potatoes, right? Sorcs can and do kill skilled players all the time — I know this from considerable personal experience.

Unlike Fury however, Steel Tornado, as well as any other execute in the game other than Fury, must be cast in the moment, giving the team pushing a player into execute range fair opportunity to finish them. If (exactly) one player can keep up Fury on an enemy in trouble, they will get the kill as soon as the target's health falls below 20%, provided that one execute is enough to finish them. The same can not be said about Steel Tornado.

Aurielle wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Not slotting a pet is only gimping yourself, you get so much for giving up two bar slots there are no pvp setups without a pet that trump a pet build.

Maybe in open world, but not in BGs. I kill pet sorcs every day with my no-pet build. Pet sorcs generally don’t build with defense in mind, because they rely overmuch on pets for free mitigation and heals. Pet builds are only effective in BGs when multiple pet sorcs are tightly stacked to frustrate your targeting efforts. Also, the Matriarch’s heal is lacklustre in no CP. I’d much rather have the two extra skills and rely on Life Giver during those moments when the midden hits the windmill.

On the contrary, Pets are more powerful the less players participate in a fight and the smaller the area. In open world they are strong, in BGs more so and even more in duels.
Your argument that pet sorcs don't build with defense in mind also makes little sense; sure, if someone decides they are just going to ignore defense and get beaten for it, that's hardly a problem. The reality however is that pet Sorcs have much better opportunity to build defensively as they get both extra pressure and defense from their pets (more than alternative skills could provide), as well as access to necropotence as a superior offense + defense set. A good player will perform better on a pet build than on a non pet build, especially if you exclude open world PvP.

Whatever, man. Curse Eater, Axiom, and Skoria is strong in the bleed meta, and it works well for me. Accuse me of kill stealing for using my class execute all you like; doesn’t change the fact that sorcs can and do regularly perform well at higher PVP levels WITHOUT pets. Continue the “sorcs can only kill potatoes” narrative as much as you want — we know the difference.

Aurielle wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you put 100 brand new players on various classes, sorcs will seem like they are the strongest. If you put 100 experienced players on all the classes, sorc will sink near the bottom. There is no secret that sorcs are the easiest class to play effectively, but most powerful? Not by a longshot. They have very straight forward offensive and defensive rotations, and they are ranged, so it's easy to pick off unsuspecting players, but that is about where their advantage ends.

Just not true. In high level dueling tourneys sorcs usually finish 1 or 2 in recent months. In solo pvp sorcs are best equipped. I like sorcs and don't want them changed I want other classes brought up to par. Sorc's mobility is one thing other classes could benefit from. Streak makes major expedition unnecessary in a lot of scenarios and with race against times upcoming changes it'll be even better. Right now even without the snare change to race against time there is no better kiting combo then race against time and streak, it' makes re positioning a breeze. Every time somebody brings up how powerful sorcs are you all say that they are only good at potato smashing. That's a false narrative that y'all use to deter and derail the conversation.

- Dueling Tournaments have rules. Specifically, removing abilties and hardcounters that are considered overpowered for 1v1. If you think magicka Sorc is too good in dueling tournaments, change the rules, don't use the tournaments as evidence for balance in different environments.

- Race against Time will be useful on magicka Sorc in open world, but not to the extend it will be on other classes, say magicka NB. In fact, it is already a great skill on Sorc as they can evade a lot of snares and make good use of the sprint cost reduction.

- Pre Summerset, Sorc was in a largely subpar state, then Rune Cage got buffed enough to push their unavoidable damage combo into OP territory. With it's subsequent nerf, Rune Cage is no longer useable in burst combos at all due to the increased delay, making Sorc more of a potatoe masher than it ever was. Delayed Burst is great if you have the tools to guarantee enough of it and/or retain an element of surprise. Neither is true for magicka Sorc today.

Aurielle wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Why is everybody acting like sorcs aren't in a great spot in pvp..nobody said anything about nerfing but y'all are coming here in droves talking about how underpowered sorcs are. Do you even take yourself seriously when you say these things?

Thing is, this is not the first time in recent weeks that you started a thread stating that mag sorcs are/feel overpowered to you. You could easily have continued the discussion in your older thread, but you choose to start a new one instead.

Calling a class overpowered IS a nerv request.

Last thread was derailed by everybody saying sorc is only good at potato killing or that wardens are op so no need to talk about sorcs. Started a new one to see if it stays on topic..but sure enough nope. Also, you're wrong. Calling a class powerful is not a nerf request.

I am actually so tired of the “sorc kills potatoes” argument, because it is so blatantly false, and is 100% pushed by sorcs who have not yet learned to play.

I’m in the process of uploading an amusing video in which myself and a stam warden completely dominated a BG — and I only realized at the end of it that I had the wrong freaking helm equipped (meaning my kill count would have been higher). I’d really like someone to explain to me why a stamden spamming shalks and S2W is considered to legitimately earn a kill, while a magsorc using a rotation of Curse, Reach, Frags, and Fury is “kill stealing.”

Aurielle wrote: »

Dang, it uploaded quickly.

https://youtu.be/JnH0HPDgv9s

I’m very tired at the moment, and was literally half asleep throughout that match. I showed my build at the end, because people get triggered and doubt you when you claim you can do well on a magsorc and don’t post your build. Hilariously, I only realized at the end of the match that I’d forgotten to re-equip Skoria after trying to put together an outfit for my Necromancer...

So yeah, 12 kills, 0 deaths, and without my full monster set equipped. And this was a sloppy match for me, in which I let buffs drop and didn’t manage my magicka well.

Ignoring your performance then, your build, even with the right hat, is frankly terrible, and so were most of the enemies, in addition to many kills being scored against locally outnumbered targets. If anything, it's a perfect demonstration on why mag Sorc is considered such a potatoe masher. There is nothing in your build that would even be troubling for a good player, including mag Sorcs.

As for stamina Warden combos, they are generally easy to avoid or block as well, but the non targeted shalks have both a higher skill floor and ceiling than Curse based combos, as you can retain an element of surprise and are not locked in on a target before the final burst. Stamina Wardens and Sorcerers both have additional pressure tools available in twin slashes/poison injection and pets respectively, though the Sorc loses theirs if you restrict yourself to non pet builds. This makes dealing with good players especially difficult, which is why, assuming you want non pet sorc to be a thing, they must be considered independently for that purpose.
But as for why Fury is considered a "kill stealing" skill? Because it is. It is currently underperforming in PvP for anything but deathmatch BGs, where it's main purpose is scoring deathblows against an enemy when pushed into execute range by the third team. It is even a trade-off to put into the BG build as your team's potential to directly take on one opposing team decreases.

Aurielle wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Sorc #1 offense is stealing kills with their mages wrath. It makes them a bit cheesy, but not so much overpowered. You beating up on a bunch of potatoes isn’t gonna convince me that Sorc is so strong everything else needs a buff to keep up.

Try fighting a Stamplar that knows what they’re doing or a freaking mag DK or warden. Let’s not even get into WW.

Sorc is easy to figure out kind of and start getting ok with. If you fight someone that knows their class, whatever that may be; the easy good/ok is not gonna be enough.

I’m going to ask what I asked earlier: why is it that stamdens, who are notorious for spin-to-win spam in BGs, are not accused of “kill stealing,” while sorcs who use wrath/fury as part of their rotation are? And again with the potato comment... you know that anyone can kill potatoes, right? Sorcs can and do kill skilled players all the time — I know this from considerable personal experience.

Unlike Fury however, Steel Tornado, as well as any other execute in the game other than Fury, must be cast in the moment, giving the team pushing a player into execute range fair opportunity to finish them. If (exactly) one player can keep up Fury on an enemy in trouble, they will get the kill as soon as the target's health falls below 20%, provided that one execute is enough to finish them. The same can not be said about Steel Tornado.

Aurielle wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Not slotting a pet is only gimping yourself, you get so much for giving up two bar slots there are no pvp setups without a pet that trump a pet build.

Maybe in open world, but not in BGs. I kill pet sorcs every day with my no-pet build. Pet sorcs generally don’t build with defense in mind, because they rely overmuch on pets for free mitigation and heals. Pet builds are only effective in BGs when multiple pet sorcs are tightly stacked to frustrate your targeting efforts. Also, the Matriarch’s heal is lacklustre in no CP. I’d much rather have the two extra skills and rely on Life Giver during those moments when the midden hits the windmill.

On the contrary, Pets are more powerful the less players participate in a fight and the smaller the area. In open world they are strong, in BGs more so and even more in duels.
Your argument that pet sorcs don't build with defense in mind also makes little sense; sure, if someone decides they are just going to ignore defense and get beaten for it, that's hardly a problem. The reality however is that pet Sorcs have much better opportunity to build defensively as they get both extra pressure and defense from their pets (more than alternative skills could provide), as well as access to necropotence as a superior offense + defense set. A good player will perform better on a pet build than on a non pet build, especially if you exclude open world PvP.

Whatever, man. Curse Eater, Axiom, and Skoria is strong in the bleed meta, and it works well for me. Accuse me of kill stealing for using my class execute all you like; doesn’t change the fact that sorcs can and do regularly perform well at higher PVP levels WITHOUT pets. Continue the “sorcs can only kill potatoes” narrative as much as you want — we know the difference.

Curse eater is a waste to be used on both bars with this skill setup and Axiom is straight up inferior to Spinner especially in no CP and weapon skills slotted.
I wouldn't accuse you of anything; saying Fury is good for that and little else is just reflecting reality, no morality attached.
Non pet Sorc also isn't useless by any means - in groups it is useful, open world the mobility makes it a top choice and in dueling it's either performing well with some rules or has little excuse not to be a pet sorc when the opponents are using all available tools as well.

ToRelax wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you put 100 brand new players on various classes, sorcs will seem like they are the strongest. If you put 100 experienced players on all the classes, sorc will sink near the bottom. There is no secret that sorcs are the easiest class to play effectively, but most powerful? Not by a longshot. They have very straight forward offensive and defensive rotations, and they are ranged, so it's easy to pick off unsuspecting players, but that is about where their advantage ends.

Just not true. In high level dueling tourneys sorcs usually finish 1 or 2 in recent months. In solo pvp sorcs are best equipped. I like sorcs and don't want them changed I want other classes brought up to par. Sorc's mobility is one thing other classes could benefit from. Streak makes major expedition unnecessary in a lot of scenarios and with race against times upcoming changes it'll be even better. Right now even without the snare change to race against time there is no better kiting combo then race against time and streak, it' makes re positioning a breeze. Every time somebody brings up how powerful sorcs are you all say that they are only good at potato smashing. That's a false narrative that y'all use to deter and derail the conversation.

- Dueling Tournaments have rules. Specifically, removing abilties and hardcounters that are considered overpowered for 1v1. If you think magicka Sorc is too good in dueling tournaments, change the rules, don't use the tournaments as evidence for balance in different environments.

- Race against Time will be useful on magicka Sorc in open world, but not to the extend it will be on other classes, say magicka NB. In fact, it is already a great skill on Sorc as they can evade a lot of snares and make good use of the sprint cost reduction.

- Pre Summerset, Sorc was in a largely subpar state, then Rune Cage got buffed enough to push their unavoidable damage combo into OP territory. With it's subsequent nerf, Rune Cage is no longer useable in burst combos at all due to the increased delay, making Sorc more of a potatoe masher than it ever was. Delayed Burst is great if you have the tools to guarantee enough of it and/or retain an element of surprise. Neither is true for magicka Sorc today.

Aurielle wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Why is everybody acting like sorcs aren't in a great spot in pvp..nobody said anything about nerfing but y'all are coming here in droves talking about how underpowered sorcs are. Do you even take yourself seriously when you say these things?

Thing is, this is not the first time in recent weeks that you started a thread stating that mag sorcs are/feel overpowered to you. You could easily have continued the discussion in your older thread, but you choose to start a new one instead.

Calling a class overpowered IS a nerv request.

Last thread was derailed by everybody saying sorc is only good at potato killing or that wardens are op so no need to talk about sorcs. Started a new one to see if it stays on topic..but sure enough nope. Also, you're wrong. Calling a class powerful is not a nerf request.

I am actually so tired of the “sorc kills potatoes” argument, because it is so blatantly false, and is 100% pushed by sorcs who have not yet learned to play.

I’m in the process of uploading an amusing video in which myself and a stam warden completely dominated a BG — and I only realized at the end of it that I had the wrong freaking helm equipped (meaning my kill count would have been higher). I’d really like someone to explain to me why a stamden spamming shalks and S2W is considered to legitimately earn a kill, while a magsorc using a rotation of Curse, Reach, Frags, and Fury is “kill stealing.”

Aurielle wrote: »

Dang, it uploaded quickly.

https://youtu.be/JnH0HPDgv9s

I’m very tired at the moment, and was literally half asleep throughout that match. I showed my build at the end, because people get triggered and doubt you when you claim you can do well on a magsorc and don’t post your build. Hilariously, I only realized at the end of the match that I’d forgotten to re-equip Skoria after trying to put together an outfit for my Necromancer...

So yeah, 12 kills, 0 deaths, and without my full monster set equipped. And this was a sloppy match for me, in which I let buffs drop and didn’t manage my magicka well.

Ignoring your performance then, your build, even with the right hat, is frankly terrible, and so were most of the enemies, in addition to many kills being scored against locally outnumbered targets. If anything, it's a perfect demonstration on why mag Sorc is considered such a potatoe masher. There is nothing in your build that would even be troubling for a good player, including mag Sorcs.

As for stamina Warden combos, they are generally easy to avoid or block as well, but the non targeted shalks have both a higher skill floor and ceiling than Curse based combos, as you can retain an element of surprise and are not locked in on a target before the final burst. Stamina Wardens and Sorcerers both have additional pressure tools available in twin slashes/poison injection and pets respectively, though the Sorc loses theirs if you restrict yourself to non pet builds. This makes dealing with good players especially difficult, which is why, assuming you want non pet sorc to be a thing, they must be considered independently for that purpose.
But as for why Fury is considered a "kill stealing" skill? Because it is. It is currently underperforming in PvP for anything but deathmatch BGs, where it's main purpose is scoring deathblows against an enemy when pushed into execute range by the third team. It is even a trade-off to put into the BG build as your team's potential to directly take on one opposing team decreases.

Aurielle wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Sorc #1 offense is stealing kills with their mages wrath. It makes them a bit cheesy, but not so much overpowered. You beating up on a bunch of potatoes isn’t gonna convince me that Sorc is so strong everything else needs a buff to keep up.

Try fighting a Stamplar that knows what they’re doing or a freaking mag DK or warden. Let’s not even get into WW.

Sorc is easy to figure out kind of and start getting ok with. If you fight someone that knows their class, whatever that may be; the easy good/ok is not gonna be enough.

I’m going to ask what I asked earlier: why is it that stamdens, who are notorious for spin-to-win spam in BGs, are not accused of “kill stealing,” while sorcs who use wrath/fury as part of their rotation are? And again with the potato comment... you know that anyone can kill potatoes, right? Sorcs can and do kill skilled players all the time — I know this from considerable personal experience.

Unlike Fury however, Steel Tornado, as well as any other execute in the game other than Fury, must be cast in the moment, giving the team pushing a player into execute range fair opportunity to finish them. If (exactly) one player can keep up Fury on an enemy in trouble, they will get the kill as soon as the target's health falls below 20%, provided that one execute is enough to finish them. The same can not be said about Steel Tornado.

Aurielle wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Not slotting a pet is only gimping yourself, you get so much for giving up two bar slots there are no pvp setups without a pet that trump a pet build.

Maybe in open world, but not in BGs. I kill pet sorcs every day with my no-pet build. Pet sorcs generally don’t build with defense in mind, because they rely overmuch on pets for free mitigation and heals. Pet builds are only effective in BGs when multiple pet sorcs are tightly stacked to frustrate your targeting efforts. Also, the Matriarch’s heal is lacklustre in no CP. I’d much rather have the two extra skills and rely on Life Giver during those moments when the midden hits the windmill.

On the contrary, Pets are more powerful the less players participate in a fight and the smaller the area. In open world they are strong, in BGs more so and even more in duels.
Your argument that pet sorcs don't build with defense in mind also makes little sense; sure, if someone decides they are just going to ignore defense and get beaten for it, that's hardly a problem. The reality however is that pet Sorcs have much better opportunity to build defensively as they get both extra pressure and defense from their pets (more than alternative skills could provide), as well as access to necropotence as a superior offense + defense set. A good player will perform better on a pet build than on a non pet build, especially if you exclude open world PvP.

Whatever, man. Curse Eater, Axiom, and Skoria is strong in the bleed meta, and it works well for me. Accuse me of kill stealing for using my class execute all you like; doesn’t change the fact that sorcs can and do regularly perform well at higher PVP levels WITHOUT pets. Continue the “sorcs can only kill potatoes” narrative as much as you want — we know the difference.

Curse eater is a waste to be used on both bars with this skill setup and Axiom is straight up inferior to Spinner especially in no CP and weapon skills slotted.
I wouldn't accuse you of anything; saying Fury is good for that and little else is just reflecting reality, no morality attached.
Non pet Sorc also isn't useless by any means - in groups it is useful, open world the mobility makes it a top choice and in dueling it's either performing well with some rules or has little excuse not to be a pet sorc when the opponents are using all available tools as well.

It really isn’t useless to double bar Curse Eater on a sorc. Curse Eater procs off direct heals, including critical hits when Power Surge is up. I get most of my critical hits on my front bar. While I’m in the middle of a battle, it’s nice to be able to passively purge dots/bleeds while on the offensive, without having to swap to my back bar to heavy attack, use Dark Conversion, or waste a resto ult when I don’t need to.

As for Spinner vs Axiom, I used to use both before I started using Curse Eater. I stuck with Axiom when I switched in CE because I already hit hard enough as it is without the added penetration, and Axiom gives me max stam, which I need for Dark Conversion, and added crit, which helps to proc Power Surge heals. Believe me, I’ve thoroughly theorycrafted this build from the ground up so that it works with my play style and what I feel comfortable with. Don’t belittle a build that you have no experience with.

Aurielle wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you put 100 brand new players on various classes, sorcs will seem like they are the strongest. If you put 100 experienced players on all the classes, sorc will sink near the bottom. There is no secret that sorcs are the easiest class to play effectively, but most powerful? Not by a longshot. They have very straight forward offensive and defensive rotations, and they are ranged, so it's easy to pick off unsuspecting players, but that is about where their advantage ends.

Just not true. In high level dueling tourneys sorcs usually finish 1 or 2 in recent months. In solo pvp sorcs are best equipped. I like sorcs and don't want them changed I want other classes brought up to par. Sorc's mobility is one thing other classes could benefit from. Streak makes major expedition unnecessary in a lot of scenarios and with race against times upcoming changes it'll be even better. Right now even without the snare change to race against time there is no better kiting combo then race against time and streak, it' makes re positioning a breeze. Every time somebody brings up how powerful sorcs are you all say that they are only good at potato smashing. That's a false narrative that y'all use to deter and derail the conversation.

- Dueling Tournaments have rules. Specifically, removing abilties and hardcounters that are considered overpowered for 1v1. If you think magicka Sorc is too good in dueling tournaments, change the rules, don't use the tournaments as evidence for balance in different environments.

- Race against Time will be useful on magicka Sorc in open world, but not to the extend it will be on other classes, say magicka NB. In fact, it is already a great skill on Sorc as they can evade a lot of snares and make good use of the sprint cost reduction.

- Pre Summerset, Sorc was in a largely subpar state, then Rune Cage got buffed enough to push their unavoidable damage combo into OP territory. With it's subsequent nerf, Rune Cage is no longer useable in burst combos at all due to the increased delay, making Sorc more of a potatoe masher than it ever was. Delayed Burst is great if you have the tools to guarantee enough of it and/or retain an element of surprise. Neither is true for magicka Sorc today.

Aurielle wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Why is everybody acting like sorcs aren't in a great spot in pvp..nobody said anything about nerfing but y'all are coming here in droves talking about how underpowered sorcs are. Do you even take yourself seriously when you say these things?

Thing is, this is not the first time in recent weeks that you started a thread stating that mag sorcs are/feel overpowered to you. You could easily have continued the discussion in your older thread, but you choose to start a new one instead.

Calling a class overpowered IS a nerv request.

Last thread was derailed by everybody saying sorc is only good at potato killing or that wardens are op so no need to talk about sorcs. Started a new one to see if it stays on topic..but sure enough nope. Also, you're wrong. Calling a class powerful is not a nerf request.

I am actually so tired of the “sorc kills potatoes” argument, because it is so blatantly false, and is 100% pushed by sorcs who have not yet learned to play.

I’m in the process of uploading an amusing video in which myself and a stam warden completely dominated a BG — and I only realized at the end of it that I had the wrong freaking helm equipped (meaning my kill count would have been higher). I’d really like someone to explain to me why a stamden spamming shalks and S2W is considered to legitimately earn a kill, while a magsorc using a rotation of Curse, Reach, Frags, and Fury is “kill stealing.”

Aurielle wrote: »

Dang, it uploaded quickly.

https://youtu.be/JnH0HPDgv9s

I’m very tired at the moment, and was literally half asleep throughout that match. I showed my build at the end, because people get triggered and doubt you when you claim you can do well on a magsorc and don’t post your build. Hilariously, I only realized at the end of the match that I’d forgotten to re-equip Skoria after trying to put together an outfit for my Necromancer...

So yeah, 12 kills, 0 deaths, and without my full monster set equipped. And this was a sloppy match for me, in which I let buffs drop and didn’t manage my magicka well.

Ignoring your performance then, your build, even with the right hat, is frankly terrible, and so were most of the enemies, in addition to many kills being scored against locally outnumbered targets. If anything, it's a perfect demonstration on why mag Sorc is considered such a potatoe masher. There is nothing in your build that would even be troubling for a good player, including mag Sorcs.

As for stamina Warden combos, they are generally easy to avoid or block as well, but the non targeted shalks have both a higher skill floor and ceiling than Curse based combos, as you can retain an element of surprise and are not locked in on a target before the final burst. Stamina Wardens and Sorcerers both have additional pressure tools available in twin slashes/poison injection and pets respectively, though the Sorc loses theirs if you restrict yourself to non pet builds. This makes dealing with good players especially difficult, which is why, assuming you want non pet sorc to be a thing, they must be considered independently for that purpose.
But as for why Fury is considered a "kill stealing" skill? Because it is. It is currently underperforming in PvP for anything but deathmatch BGs, where it's main purpose is scoring deathblows against an enemy when pushed into execute range by the third team. It is even a trade-off to put into the BG build as your team's potential to directly take on one opposing team decreases.

Aurielle wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Sorc #1 offense is stealing kills with their mages wrath. It makes them a bit cheesy, but not so much overpowered. You beating up on a bunch of potatoes isn’t gonna convince me that Sorc is so strong everything else needs a buff to keep up.

Try fighting a Stamplar that knows what they’re doing or a freaking mag DK or warden. Let’s not even get into WW.

Sorc is easy to figure out kind of and start getting ok with. If you fight someone that knows their class, whatever that may be; the easy good/ok is not gonna be enough.

I’m going to ask what I asked earlier: why is it that stamdens, who are notorious for spin-to-win spam in BGs, are not accused of “kill stealing,” while sorcs who use wrath/fury as part of their rotation are? And again with the potato comment... you know that anyone can kill potatoes, right? Sorcs can and do kill skilled players all the time — I know this from considerable personal experience.

Unlike Fury however, Steel Tornado, as well as any other execute in the game other than Fury, must be cast in the moment, giving the team pushing a player into execute range fair opportunity to finish them. If (exactly) one player can keep up Fury on an enemy in trouble, they will get the kill as soon as the target's health falls below 20%, provided that one execute is enough to finish them. The same can not be said about Steel Tornado.

Aurielle wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Not slotting a pet is only gimping yourself, you get so much for giving up two bar slots there are no pvp setups without a pet that trump a pet build.

Maybe in open world, but not in BGs. I kill pet sorcs every day with my no-pet build. Pet sorcs generally don’t build with defense in mind, because they rely overmuch on pets for free mitigation and heals. Pet builds are only effective in BGs when multiple pet sorcs are tightly stacked to frustrate your targeting efforts. Also, the Matriarch’s heal is lacklustre in no CP. I’d much rather have the two extra skills and rely on Life Giver during those moments when the midden hits the windmill.

On the contrary, Pets are more powerful the less players participate in a fight and the smaller the area. In open world they are strong, in BGs more so and even more in duels.
Your argument that pet sorcs don't build with defense in mind also makes little sense; sure, if someone decides they are just going to ignore defense and get beaten for it, that's hardly a problem. The reality however is that pet Sorcs have much better opportunity to build defensively as they get both extra pressure and defense from their pets (more than alternative skills could provide), as well as access to necropotence as a superior offense + defense set. A good player will perform better on a pet build than on a non pet build, especially if you exclude open world PvP.

Whatever, man. Curse Eater, Axiom, and Skoria is strong in the bleed meta, and it works well for me. Accuse me of kill stealing for using my class execute all you like; doesn’t change the fact that sorcs can and do regularly perform well at higher PVP levels WITHOUT pets. Continue the “sorcs can only kill potatoes” narrative as much as you want — we know the difference.

Curse eater is a waste to be used on both bars with this skill setup and Axiom is straight up inferior to Spinner especially in no CP and weapon skills slotted.
I wouldn't accuse you of anything; saying Fury is good for that and little else is just reflecting reality, no morality attached.
Non pet Sorc also isn't useless by any means - in groups it is useful, open world the mobility makes it a top choice and in dueling it's either performing well with some rules or has little excuse not to be a pet sorc when the opponents are using all available tools as well.

It really isn’t useless to double bar Curse Eater on a sorc. Curse Eater procs off direct heals, including critical hits when Power Surge is up. I get most of my critical hits on my front bar. While I’m in the middle of a battle, it’s nice to be able to passively purge dots/bleeds while on the offensive, without having to swap to my back bar to heavy attack, use Dark Conversion, or waste a resto ult when I don’t need to.

As for Spinner vs Axiom, I used to use both before I started using Curse Eater. I stuck with Axiom when I switched in CE because I already hit hard enough as it is without the added penetration, and Axiom gives me max stam, which I need for Dark Conversion, and added crit, which helps to proc Power Surge heals. Believe me, I’ve thoroughly theorycrafted this build from the ground up so that it works with my play style and what I feel comfortable with. Don’t belittle a build that you have no experience with.

Well, I'm aware of how Curse Eater works, and though I see this as wasteful, at least you have your reasoning.
Axiom however, remains inferior to Spinner, dealing less damage, especially in no CP where spell erosion isn't a thing. If you need more max stam, prismatic glyphs will give you better results.
When I first mentioned the build, I was moreover also talking about the skill setup... but I get the impression you don't want to discuss it further, so I'll let it be.

Ayastigi wrote: »

I don't get how when Aurielle posts a video displaying that non-pet sorcs are viable people proceed to flame it after it was noted that it came from a high mmr bg. The message wasn't the gameplay but rather that non petsorcs are viable which has become a sub-topic in this thread. It seems on a lot of the posts that people don't pay attention to the point and instead refute something that wasn't even brought up.

The first video was uploaded to show that non pet mag sorc has no problem killing good players. I argued it didn't show that.