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NB changes on stream
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Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭thankyourat wrote: »A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game
and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak
We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE
We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class
NB is completely damage carried... honestly their damage needed to be toned down because it’s absurd in both PvP and pve. Especially since both mag and StamNB have dominated the end game pve scene for over a year. Plus grim focus was literally the hardest hitting single target ability in the game. The loss of minor bezer was well deserved. Time to adapt like other classes did when they received heavy nerfs.
Do you feel it should be nerfed to do the same damage as Crystal frags though? Because without the minor berserk Crystal frags and the spectral bow will be hitting for the same damage, but Crystal frags requires much less micromanaging and doesn't need 2GCD to use. I feel as though nightblade burst damage is comparable to warden and sorc already on live without the nerfs. If you look at it Crystal frag is already the second strongest ability in the game only merciless and ice comet have higher damage.
Now you add in curse which has similar damage to soul harvest and actually does more damage than soul tether which is basically unavoidable and combine that with a execute that auto procs and a matriarch that passively hits like a truck and all of this can be combined to hit in 1GCD you realize pretty fast that nightblade burst damage isn't really that high in comparison.
Warden burst damage is also comparable while being all AOE damage which is easy to avoid 1v1 but can get very difficult to avoid Xv1 or in GvG situations. Wardens also have just as many buffs and debuffs as nightblades while being just as tanky as a DK or Templar while having twice the burst damage so they are completely outclassing both of those specs. Nightblade damage has now been nerfed so where on live it's equal to warden and less than sorc it is now less than both specs while not being granted the defensive abilities of those classes.
Not true. Grim Focus still hits for significantly more.
In my tests, it was well 5k more damage without crits. With the exact same gear and stats.
I think you forgot to add 20% damage bonus to frag procs.
I've done a lot of comparisons using uesp and the damage is very very similar.
EDIT: See this post i made on the pts last week (this is without minor berserk):So the hardest hitting ability in the game is nothing now ? OK.....
20K C frags are a regular occurrence on magsorcs right now, they proc every 2-3 seconds, can be thrown in every single combo a sorc throws at you.
Most assassin's scourges are 20-22K, and you might be able to build one in 10 seconds at the very minimum. I'll take a 2K decrease if they proc like a C frags, any day
20k frags on regular occurance lel. Well atleast now I know it's a troll thread.
So I put together a quick magblade build using the uesp.net build editor. Fully buffed, correct skill bars, the damage of spectral bow is 21,656.
I then switched it to a magsorc. With the same sets, all passives obtained, and exactly the same CP and buffs tabs, correct skill bars, frags has a tooltip of 20,762
Frags. 17302*1.2:
Merciless.
I forgot nothing. You forgot to remove the Amplitude passive of Sorcerers, which likely caused you to deal 9% extra damage or so. Since this passive is too unreliable in pvp, I remove it for all my static damage tests. So I can see the true base damage.
The damage difference between fragments and grim focus is still considerable, depending on your build. I can only assume, that your damage values were lower, thus the % difference also gets lower. I tested scenarios with stats that matter the most to me, with Imperial Physique. My Grim focus dealt 4-5 more damage there.
Show me your sheets? I'll be glad to accept that I'm wrong if i am proven wrong.
I recreated my tests with as max damage as possible using war maiden and innate axiom. I also put unreasonably high CPs.
Bow proc is at 28k.
Frags proc is at 27k
Amplitude has no effect on the tooltips of the uesp.net build editor, but I removed it for your sake.
Tooltips are for beginners. The actual hit counts.
But I will take some pictures when I go on the pts later.
I will come back to you.
Uhh lol?
I thought we were comparing the skill by itself because the point was frags is waay easier to proc than bow, and it deals the same damage? In practice of course damage numbers will be different because it depends on the target you're hitting (eg his resistances, his buffs, etc.), and the rotation of the player (i.e. was soul harvest cast before, etc)
Frags are easier to proc for sure. But the tooltips you are having there, can not be true.
And now where grim focus is getting all these survival extras, I think it turns into a heavy overloaded ability, that is already strong enough as it is.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=139910
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=139911
Check it out then.
Okay, I believe this discussion is over for me. You are using some build editor to get your numbers ? No wonder then.
Then I must no longer be worried that I am correct with my recent numbers.
ugh I hate discussion with these kinds of people. All talk, no proof, and then backs out when presented with proof. Ah well. I'm done as well.
I wouldnt call build editor link "a proff". It's far from proving anything. Even when tooltip is similar at the end You may end up getting way better results with 1 ability over another. That is what's happening with merciless which in PvE for example on magblade have max hits like 20k higher then magsorcs are getting with frags when both classes are equally buffed by group.0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »
That'd be super counter intuitive, why would you want to build up resistances just to throw them away to do damage. Let's wait for the implementation on monday before actually speculating on weird stuff
On paper perhaps. But the truth is this type of trade of ability interaction is sorely lacking in eso as a whole. The proper way to view this is that you can sacrifice a powerful nuke in exchange for a powerful mitigation buff. And you make these choices at critical points mid fight. Its this risk reeard dynamic that makes combat sarisfying and its why healthy offering is a fantastic skill since you know that if you hammer out 7 offerings you are definitely saving a players life but you are placing yourself in dire straights.
On the flip side. Grim focus is known as an offensive ability, and thematically is a bit strange to have it be a unique hybrid skill with a self burst heal and a lingeting mitigation buff as well as being NBs strongest single target damage spell.
Counter intuitive though? Not even slightly.1 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):net/5020507/uploads/editor/rw/ptax5w5y3322.png
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.
Simple. Because an ability with low base damage, doesn't get the same damage increase from 1000 spell damage as an ability with a higher base damage.
What you are doing, is using absolute low end damage that has nothing to do with high end damage. The difference between abilities is not high to being with, it just becomes appearent as your own damage increases. Same goes for crits. An ability with higher base damage will also get more crit damage.
So the difference between crystal fragments and merciless gets even bigger if you take crits into consideration.
So in conclusion: The higher your own damage, the bigger the difference between abilities of varying base strenght gets.
So basically starting from a low end setup frag does 92% damage of AW while with a high end setup it does only 82% damage. That means AW, besides having better base damage, also has significantly better scaling.
Still these numbers are only representative of you take a neutral skill as reference @Dracane
It is apparent however that AW at least will outperform frags with a certain threshold of stats, if not be superior damage wise all over
Indeed. Imagine it like this: If an ability has 1000 base damage and you add 100 spell damage, it gets 100% of these 100 spell damage added. If you have an ability with 800 base damage and add 100 spell damage, it will not get 100% of these 100 spell damage added. Perhaps just 90% or less.
This of course stacks and stacks the higher your damage gets.
My intention here was to show, that Merciless Resolve is by far not as weak as people like to claim. It's in fact significantly stronger than crystal fragments and has much higher burst potential if you crit, which Nightblades can force to happen. I am not here to discuss how much damage Nightblade does with force pulse and how much Sorcerer does.
I will just say, you can not ignore class passives, it simply does not work that way. You can make a comparison, but it will be meaningless in the end.
The thing is, you just compare both skills damage wise, and yes, AW damage is probably the highest in the game. However, you should also take into account it takes at least 2 more GCDs to build up (more if LAs miss), can only be build up while being offensive and not under pressure, and damage of nb may be naturally higher (something you’d have to test as I pointed out).
I don’t think this magblade sorc discussion is leading to any valuable insights here so I’d suggest discussing it in a separate thread
I never argued that Crystal fragments are easier to proc than Grim Focus. Which is justified by the higher damage of Grim Focus. People here claimed, that Crystal Fragments hits for the same damage, which is far from true. My mission was to defy this, I hope you finally get me now.
My mission is to show that frags and bow proc are very similar in damage. Which I have proven to be true i belive. I did it in live, I did it with the calcs. I am 100% transparent about this.
Your proof however is sketchy because your magsorc seems to have too high health, which means something is wrong.
.
I beg your pardon ?
First you spread false things from your petty build editor, which every decent theorycrafter knows to be wrong.
And then you show pictures of your half naked characters ?
And you do not even know the classes. Yes, Sorcerer has more health, because they get 8% health from having a pet active.
Face it, you do nothing about this game and you have no clue how things actually work. I tried my best to teach you, but you are unteachable.
You don't have to use the build editor though to see the tooltips. I just switch the same gear from my magsorc to my magblade and go into cyrodiil. My Crystal frag tooltip is around 18.5 fully buffed with continuous attack. My magblade merciless resolve tooltip is 23k also buffed with continuous. On my build a procd frag will have a tooltip of 22200 which is not a noticeable difference. these numbers are including all passives. Another thing to look at is in cyrodiil you typically aren't going to be using 3 damage sets which is also in favor of Crystal frag because merciless has slightly higher tooltip damage which would actually synergize better with high damage builds
The only time you see a huge damage spike between the abilities like what you showed is against very squishy players not using impen because of nightblade crit modifiers and I actually use more crit damage CP on my magblade because of that. If a player is using 3k plus impen like almost everyone in cyrodiil the damage of both abilities are very comparable and if they don't crit at all you can't even tell the difference in the abilities damage. This is just what I experience having both a magblade and a magsorc and having alot of experience with both classes in PvP.5 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭could someone, anyone, explain me how giving a +3/6/9/12/15% dmg reduction to an offensive skill makes it "highly risky"?
it would be a "high risk/high reward" skill if it was lowering your defenses by 3/6/9/12/15% and dealing 3/6/9/12/15% moar dmg.
or maybe i'm a complete dumb...
Perhaps high risk high reward is not the correct mind set. Think of it more like you are cashing in a strong defense buff for a strong offensive attack.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oh boy so much talking about which ability does more dmg and how much more when people could just simply look at skill coefficients to know it instantly.
For the record here is formula for scaling merciless : 0.206581 Magicka + 2.16898 SD
and here is formula for frag : 0.154773 Magicka + 1.62437 SD now when it procs it'll be 0,185679 Magicka + 1,94967 SD
So merciless have ~11,25% stronger scaling from stats then procced frag. Merciless can be further buffed by death stroke ultimate debuff which will make merciless max possible hits way higher then crystal fragment max hits.Edited by Juhasow on April 28, 2019 5:40PM3 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Can I get a link to this stream?
https://youtu.be/TiL5MzzniD4This damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense.
This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyles. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and ZOS seems to be only promoting this even further with this change.
Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea?
Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.
Are you sure this is the class’ identity? Where does it say that?
What you’re describing is a playstyle, not a class. You may be projecting what stamblade has been in pvp vs the intent of the class.
Without a doubt it’s a stealth class, but ambush from the shadows and then back to the shadows if it doesn’t work? If that’s all a class was it’d be a pretty crappy class.
Every MMO from the last 25 years, have a rogue-type class. NB supposed to be the rogue of ESO. Devs are just trying so hard to reinvent the wheel...
Have you played a rogue in an MMO in other games for the past 25 years? If so you’d know that stun locking someone from 100-death has never been left in a game for long.
Usually best case is get someone to 50 percent health and fight it out.
That’s basicly what ESO is too, but picking on new players allows you to do it so the devs are stepping in, to save them from themselves.
For some weird reason there’s a weekly thread of people asking if they REALLY need all impenetrable and resistances, the answer’s always yes, and people still play garbage glass canon specs in pvp all the time.
I agree that merciless would never have been designed from scratch this way but had to point this out.Edited by Iskiab on April 28, 2019 5:44PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
MentalxHammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The actual amount can be determined in extensive testing but while add no valuable information on the current status of magblade since the issue doesn’t even lie in damage!
Now get constructive again
No extensive testing is required as I have posted a direct comparison of the BASE damage of these skills, stam bow only hits 3.4% harder than a procd frags. However frags is up 66% more often...
1 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭All of it simply feels like they have absolutely no idea how a "rogue" should play as. Either that or they simply hate the rogue playstyle and want to ruin it completely and forever, which in that case, they are definitely on the right track.
NB as a class is far more than a "rogue" archetype. Just like the rest of the classes here, rogue is simply one aspect of it.2 -
MentalxHammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Guys can we please stop taking in game screen shots of our damage tooltips... this literally proves nothing as there are dozens and dozens of factors effecting those values. If you want to be constructive please just use the base damage values of the skills. These can be found up to date at uesp.0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oh boy so much talking about which ability does more dmg and how much more when people could just simply look at skill coefficients to know it instantly.
For the record here is formula for scaling merciless : 0.206581 Magicka + 2.16898 SD
and here is formula for frag : 0.154773 Magicka + 1.62437 SD now when it procs it'll be 0,185679 Magicka + 1,94967 SD
So merciless have ~11,25% stronger scaling from stats then procced frag. Merciless can be further buffed by death stroke ultimate debuff which will make merciless max possible hits way higher then crystal fragment max hits.
No no Juhasow. How dare you take ability interactions into account ?
You must not use logic and cleverness ! You must do it naked and without passives. That's how you truly play.
You are being too creative and realistic.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.2 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@HaruKamui
First off, to give my statement more meaning, let me tell you: Fool
And now I shall present actual in game screenshots to you. The difference between crystal fragments and grim focus is gigantic.
Both characters are identical. Same CP setup, same gear (I just switch the same gear between both characters) and all passives learned. 5 Necropotence, 5 Alfiq and 2 Slimecraw. Which is the Cyrodiil setup I will be using. On Sorcerer of course, I must use mighty chudan in reality, because I do not have space for an external armor buff. While nightblade gets all armor buffs for free as a passive, so the Nightblade can use something else later.
22571 hit with a procced crystal fragment.
Nightblade has a few k more magicka, thanks to Magicka flood. Which is alot of extra damage, which I sadly can not exlude in my testing. The burdens of a passively overloaded class I fear.
27584 merciless resolve hit.
So as you can, the damage of both abilities is not even compareable. With the exact same setup, merciless resolve deals alot more damage. The difference being, that Merciless Resolve is going to grant overloaded passives. Which surely fits into the entire design of the divine class, so no surprise there.
For the future, I encourage you to put some effort into your arguments and actually go out and compare numbers with actual tests. Those build editors are a disgrace and are not even to be considered.
For proper testing you should exclude passives that affect damage, as those are additional class benefits and not something base abilities should be judged on. The 10% extra magicka your nightblade has over your sorcerer is ridiculous when you try to compare abilities, what were you thinking?
Absolutely not. These are things, that definately are present on each and every character. Every sorcerer gets 2% spell damage for slotted class ability and every Nightblade gets 8% magicka for just slotting their main spammable etc.
So yes, these things will definately get included. You just can't accept the fact, that Nightblade is far from dead and that this class is absolutely ridiculous. Even without this magicka, Grim Focus would be alot stronger.
Honestly the test is wrong. If you want to test Skill vs Skill, you do it with naked characters, no passives, no CP, no gear... And you just test the Raw Skills.
Because from the start of your test, the gear you are using synergy better with NB Passives than with Sorc Passives, so your test is biased...
Test the Raw Skills and show the %.
Wow, people here really have no clue how this game works.
Who cares what an ability does if you are naked ? What matters, is what it does when you are in your gear.
Or do you go into Cyrodiil without passives and without gear ?
Please, don't act so foolish.
My test shows you the true difference between these abilities. But sure, continue doing your naked testing, which is as far from reality as it can get.
Dude you are testing skill vs skill... You are not testing class vs class. You have to do it naked to have the less possible variables...
Because if you are testing class vs class, you will have to keep in mind a lot of stuff, for example the GCD and build up Variables, that by the time you shoot 1 Spectral Bow, you can easily shoot 2 or 3 Crystals because you can even build up on defense...
So what are you testing? Raw Skill vs Raw Skill dmg? Class vs Class? Or Playstyle vs Playstyle?...
As I said before, your test is biased... It's over...
Absolutely not. No one other than a Nb is ever going to throw out an AW and no one other than a sorc is ever going to throw out a frags. Any applicable passives that directly effect said skills will be present 100 percent of the time and absolutely need to be acknowledged when doing any sort of impartial testing. To dismiss or disregard the passives that influence these skills is irresponsible at best when testing something in a practical environment.
Also, scaling is not universal in its value across all skills, and certain skills are weighted differently and obey different rules and coefficients regarding power budget. Including things like rng and GCD times. This is why testing *** naked is an absolute waste of time.Edited by exeeter702 on April 28, 2019 6:14PM1 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oh boy so much talking about which ability does more dmg and how much more when people could just simply look at skill coefficients to know it instantly.
For the record here is formula for scaling merciless : 0.206581 Magicka + 2.16898 SD
and here is formula for frag : 0.154773 Magicka + 1.62437 SD now when it procs it'll be 0,185679 Magicka + 1,94967 SD
So merciless have ~11,25% stronger scaling from stats then procced frag. Merciless can be further buffed by death stroke ultimate debuff which will make merciless max possible hits way higher then crystal fragment max hits.
I think that's what all magblades are upset about. You basically made the point for the magblades. merciless only does basically 11% more damage than Crystal frag and it would actually be a little less than that when you factor in what is viable gear for PvP for each class. So basically you have a skill that requires much more skill and micromanagement in merciless only hitting for slightly more damage than Crystal frag.
Like I mentioned earlier just switch your gear from sorc to magblade and test the damage on a player with one defensive set and 3k crit resit and see which one hits harder. You will see that the damage will be pretty comparable. Now the question is do you feel merciless doing comparable damage in PvP to Crystal frag is balance when you look at all the prerequisites of merciless? I don't and I believe merciless needs an additional effect to make it not be outclassed for PvP by Crystal frag.
Adding the extra 20% from soul harvest has nothing to do with merciless and is like saying a sorc can combine curse and pets to go off at the same time Crystal frag lands. Neither argument has anything to do with merciless vs frag comparison.7 -
Heimpai✭✭✭✭✭Sorcs should just leave this thread, you’re keeping this pointless debate going and not contributing to anything constructive at all..
I firmly believe major brutality/sorcery should be added to gf not mitigation, if they want to help tanks/healers then revert the healing nerfs and change NON offensive skills
Every class but nb‘s have a way to get major brutality/sorcery without pots and without procing it off an enemy..seems rather pointless that a sneaky class that doesn’t have class shields/armor is forced to be in the thick of things when the other classes aren’t2 -
zParallaxz✭✭✭✭✭Let’s keep in mind these are the same nighblades who actively wanted to nerf wings but now are crying bloody murder that a skill that had gave several buffs and high damage was nerfed. Tbh I hope this gut this class even further. Make cloak a longer duration and give minor protection as base morph but make it stop suppressing dots while active.1
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Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭zParallaxz wrote: »Let’s keep in mind these are the same nighblades who actively wanted to nerf wings but now are crying bloody murder that a skill that had gave several buffs and high damage was nerfed. Tbh I hope this gut this class even further. Make cloak a longer duration and give minor protection as base morph but make it stop suppressing dots while active.
So wait, magsorcs are one of the strongest pvp classes and magblades the weakest. So you thought it’d be a good idea is to go and try and antagonize as many NBs as possible to remind them of this, to increase the chances of a pitch fork mob forming?
Magblades didn’t ask for reflections to be nerfed, most of the discussion was about how to get around reflections in a class with all projectiles.Edited by Iskiab on April 28, 2019 6:47PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten9 -
Heimpai✭✭✭✭✭zParallaxz wrote: »Let’s keep in mind these are the same nighblades who actively wanted to nerf wings but now are crying bloody murder that a skill that had gave several buffs and high damage was nerfed. Tbh I hope this gut this class even further. Make cloak a longer duration and give minor protection as base morph but make it stop suppressing dots while active.
So wait, magsorcs are one of the strongest pvp classes and magblades the weakest. So you thought it’d be a good idea is to go and try and antagonize as many NBs as possible to remind them of this, to increase the chances of a pitch fork mob forming?
Magblades didn’t ask for reflections to be nerfed, most of the discussion was about how to get around reflections in a class with all projectiles.
Don’t mind him, he’s the type that says NB when he’s only referring to snipe spammers1 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭Can I get a link to this stream?https://youtu.be/TiL5MzzniD4This damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense.
This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyles. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and ZOS seems to be only promoting this even further with this change.
Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea?
Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.
Are you sure this is the class’ identity? Where does it say that?
What you’re describing is a playstyle, not a class. You may be projecting what stamblade has been in pvp vs the intent of the class.
Without a doubt it’s a stealth class, but ambush from the shadows and then back to the shadows if it doesn’t work? If that’s all a class was it’d be a pretty crappy class.
Every MMO from the last 25 years, have a rogue-type class. NB supposed to be the rogue of ESO. Devs are just trying so hard to reinvent the wheel...
Have you played a rogue in an MMO in other games for the past 25 years? If so you’d know that stun locking someone from 100-death has never been left in a game for long.
Usually best case is get someone to 50 percent health and fight it out.
Who's talking about the stun? Im talking about the small dmg window. Rogue type classes are always suppose to be bursty, dealing huge dmg in a few seconds and then retreat (or build up to prepare the burst again). Merciless is at it's core a dmg skill and it should stay like that.Edited by Chelo on April 28, 2019 6:57PM0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Can I get a link to this stream?https://youtu.be/TiL5MzzniD4This damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense.
This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyles. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and ZOS seems to be only promoting this even further with this change.
Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea?
Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.
Are you sure this is the class’ identity? Where does it say that?
What you’re describing is a playstyle, not a class. You may be projecting what stamblade has been in pvp vs the intent of the class.
Without a doubt it’s a stealth class, but ambush from the shadows and then back to the shadows if it doesn’t work? If that’s all a class was it’d be a pretty crappy class.
Every MMO from the last 25 years, have a rogue-type class. NB supposed to be the rogue of ESO. Devs are just trying so hard to reinvent the wheel...
Have you played a rogue in an MMO in other games for the past 25 years? If so you’d know that stun locking someone from 100-death has never been left in a game for long.
Usually best case is get someone to 50 percent health and fight it out.
Who's talking about the stun? Im talking about the small dmg window. Rogue type classes are always suppose to be bursty, dealing huge dmg in a few seconds and then retreat (or build up to prepare the burst again). Merciless is at it's core a dmg skill and it should stay like that.
That has never been the case. No MMO in the history of MMOs has allowed a class to stunlock another from full health to death, in every case it’s been nerfed and removed.
The rogue playstyle is to ambush and start a fight with an advantage, and then use that advantage to win using actual pvp. If the rogue playstyle was to burst and retreat like you say, they’d never be able to kill anyone because they don’t have enough burst to stunlock someone from full health to death.Edited by Iskiab on April 28, 2019 7:36PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭@darkblue5
the dmg mitigation will benefit brawler the most because their base playstyle is to endure tons of damage by mitigating them as much as possible and deal even more dmg in order to kill their opponent.
if you play like a ranged magnb or an assassin, you're more into dealing the maximum dmg you can WITHOUT GETTING HIT. therefor mitigation is not your very business. a few sustain in order to survive a bit if you get caught is enough.
anyway, the assassin playstyle is about to die in TESO since you have to mail your target by marking it, then stack up your defense/offense thru LA (which could take a while since you warn your opponent you're on your way to attack him with mark) and then (if you're still fighting) release a nerfed burst.
meanwhile random warden brawlers will just fully buff themselves behing a tree, rush into you, drop sub assault/DBoS(or permafrost)/whirling blades beside any other aoe that might be buff until june 4th an look for other things to do..
warn ppl when you focus at them with single target abilities that takes ages to load,
unleash the doom anytime anywhere with your aoes.
your choice.
My Onslaught gank build and my Caluurion's gank build I am pretty sure will be fine. Most opponents I won't be able to kill just based on the lose of Minor Berserk I can kill when I save up a touchexeeter702 wrote: »could someone, anyone, explain me how giving a +3/6/9/12/15% dmg reduction to an offensive skill makes it "highly risky"?
it would be a "high risk/high reward" skill if it was lowering your defenses by 3/6/9/12/15% and dealing 3/6/9/12/15% moar dmg.
or maybe i'm a complete dumb...
Perhaps high risk high reward is not the correct mind set. Think of it more like you are cashing in a strong defense buff for a strong offensive attack.
The high risk is using the bow proc and losing the defense you built up.1 -
lnigo✭✭✭Mitigation is what the NB class lack the most of and since they decided to strip them of their damage I am happy they decide to give it more defense instead. In pvp this will see the most benefit since you hold on to your bow shot, in pve you just fire it whenever it is ready as a dps. Long time ago I played nb tank pve they have room for this skill?
Mitigation is what this class needs? Nightblades are the only class with access to major evasion. Not to mention major and minor resolve/ward accessibility along with minor protection. The major protection the class gets is rarely used, but regardless this class gets every single mitigating buff in the game aside from minor evasion.0 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭Mitigation is what the NB class lack the most of and since they decided to strip them of their damage I am happy they decide to give it more defense instead. In pvp this will see the most benefit since you hold on to your bow shot, in pve you just fire it whenever it is ready as a dps. Long time ago I played nb tank pve they have room for this skill?
Mitigation is what this class needs? Nightblades are the only class with access to major evasion. Not to mention major and minor resolve/ward accessibility along with minor protection. The major protection the class gets is rarely used, but regardless this class gets every single mitigating buff in the game aside from minor evasion.
Have you played PvP magblade? The main issue is that magicka nightblade healing has to sort of stink because of PVE and so the unnamed mitigation will essentially buff the healing while also providing strong defense against bleeds etc. Going offensive and using the bow proc will be pretty interesting strategy-wise.1 -
kaithuzar✭✭✭✭✭
✭<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.
Simple. Because an ability with low base damage, doesn't get the same damage increase from 1000 spell damage as an ability with a higher base damage.
What you are doing, is using absolute low end damage that has nothing to do with high end damage. The difference between abilities is not high to being with, it just becomes appearent as your own damage increases. Same goes for crits. An ability with higher base damage will also get more crit damage.
So the difference between crystal fragments and merciless gets even bigger if you take crits into consideration.
So in conclusion: The higher your own damage, the bigger the difference between abilities of varying base strenght gets.
But that's the thing, I've already showed you in the build editor than even when damage is maxed out, the difference is within 1k. I only showed these live values to you to show that my calcs are not wrong because you so stubbornly throw those out the window.
As I have showed you, your build editor is wrong.
Still you argue against it.
But I see, Nightblades are impossible to teach. So overloaded with strenght, they do not even see it.
Keep telling yourself and Zenimax how bad Grim Focus and your class is. It's laughable.
Sorry if this is old already...
But, what’s laughable is your inappropriate use of the scientific method, which should be used to minimize the number of variables, but instead have manipulated it to promote your bias.Member of:
Fantasia - osh kosh b-josh
Just Chill - Crown's house
GoldCloaks - Durruthy test server penga
Small Meme Guild - Mano's house
Former member of:
Legend - Siffer fan boy club
TKO (tamriel knight's order) - free bks
Deviance - Leonard's senche tiger
Purple - hamNchz is my hero
Eight Divines - myrlifax stop playing final fantasy
WKB (we kill bosses) - turd where you go?
Arcance Council - Klytz Kommander
World Boss - Mike & Chewy gone EP
M12 (majestic twelve) - cult of the loli zerg7 -
kaithuzar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oh boy so much talking about which ability does more dmg and how much more when people could just simply look at skill coefficients to know it instantly.
For the record here is formula for scaling merciless : 0.206581 Magicka + 2.16898 SD
and here is formula for frag : 0.154773 Magicka + 1.62437 SD now when it procs it'll be 0,185679 Magicka + 1,94967 SD
So merciless have ~11,25% stronger scaling from stats then procced frag. Merciless can be further buffed by death stroke ultimate debuff which will make merciless max possible hits way higher then crystal fragment max hits.
No no Juhasow. How dare you take ability interactions into account ?
You must not use logic and cleverness ! You must do it naked and without passives. That's how you truly play.
You are being too creative and realistic.
There’s this thing you toted, what was it realism?
Sorry but your nightblade build is in the wrong meta for the wrong year broski.
How about you try making a nightblade build within the realm of REALISM before toting such high numbers with a 15k health pool for nightblade.Member of:
Fantasia - osh kosh b-josh
Just Chill - Crown's house
GoldCloaks - Durruthy test server penga
Small Meme Guild - Mano's house
Former member of:
Legend - Siffer fan boy club
TKO (tamriel knight's order) - free bks
Deviance - Leonard's senche tiger
Purple - hamNchz is my hero
Eight Divines - myrlifax stop playing final fantasy
WKB (we kill bosses) - turd where you go?
Arcance Council - Klytz Kommander
World Boss - Mike & Chewy gone EP
M12 (majestic twelve) - cult of the loli zerg4 -
Deathlord92✭✭✭✭✭
✭Magblade needs a good self heal and major sorcery on merciless this would help magblade be as aggressive as it should be give magblade some love 🙏Edited by Deathlord92 on April 28, 2019 8:49PM2 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭Can I get a link to this stream?https://youtu.be/TiL5MzzniD4This damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense.
This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyles. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and ZOS seems to be only promoting this even further with this change.
Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea?
Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.
Are you sure this is the class’ identity? Where does it say that?
What you’re describing is a playstyle, not a class. You may be projecting what stamblade has been in pvp vs the intent of the class.
Without a doubt it’s a stealth class, but ambush from the shadows and then back to the shadows if it doesn’t work? If that’s all a class was it’d be a pretty crappy class.
Every MMO from the last 25 years, have a rogue-type class. NB supposed to be the rogue of ESO. Devs are just trying so hard to reinvent the wheel...
Have you played a rogue in an MMO in other games for the past 25 years? If so you’d know that stun locking someone from 100-death has never been left in a game for long.
Usually best case is get someone to 50 percent health and fight it out.
Who's talking about the stun? Im talking about the small dmg window. Rogue type classes are always suppose to be bursty, dealing huge dmg in a few seconds and then retreat (or build up to prepare the burst again). Merciless is at it's core a dmg skill and it should stay like that.
That has never been the case. No MMO in the history of MMOs has allowed a class to stunlock another from full health to death, in every case it’s been nerfed and removed.
The rogue playstyle is to ambush and start a fight with an advantage, and then use that advantage to win using actual pvp. If the rogue playstyle was to burst and retreat like you say, they’d never be able to kill anyone because they don’t have enough burst to stunlock someone from full health to death.
Again... Who the hell is talking about stuns? Burst =/= Stun...1 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.
Simple. Because an ability with low base damage, doesn't get the same damage increase from 1000 spell damage as an ability with a higher base damage.
What you are doing, is using absolute low end damage that has nothing to do with high end damage. The difference between abilities is not high to being with, it just becomes appearent as your own damage increases. Same goes for crits. An ability with higher base damage will also get more crit damage.
So the difference between crystal fragments and merciless gets even bigger if you take crits into consideration.
So in conclusion: The higher your own damage, the bigger the difference between abilities of varying base strenght gets.
But that's the thing, I've already showed you in the build editor than even when damage is maxed out, the difference is within 1k. I only showed these live values to you to show that my calcs are not wrong because you so stubbornly throw those out the window.
As I have showed you, your build editor is wrong.
Still you argue against it.
But I see, Nightblades are impossible to teach. So overloaded with strenght, they do not even see it.
Keep telling yourself and Zenimax how bad Grim Focus and your class is. It's laughable.
Sorry if this is old already...
But, what’s laughable is your inappropriate use of the scientific method, which should be used to minimize the number of variables, but instead have manipulated it to promote your bias.
That's exactly what I said, to be a fair comparison, he have to use the less possible variables. So that's naked characters with no gear, passives or CP, only compare the raw dmg of both skills...
Edited by Chelo on April 28, 2019 9:09PM2 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭Oh boy so much talking about which ability does more dmg and how much more when people could just simply look at skill coefficients to know it instantly.
For the record here is formula for scaling merciless : 0.206581 Magicka + 2.16898 SD
and here is formula for frag : 0.154773 Magicka + 1.62437 SD now when it procs it'll be 0,185679 Magicka + 1,94967 SD
So merciless have ~11,25% stronger scaling from stats then procced frag. Merciless can be further buffed by death stroke ultimate debuff which will make merciless max possible hits way higher then crystal fragment max hits.
No no Juhasow. How dare you take ability interactions into account ?
You must not use logic and cleverness ! You must do it naked and without passives. That's how you truly play.
You are being too creative and realistic.
You are so biased that's it's hilarious at this point hahaha.
Search for the Scientific Method in Google... Also search for Ceteris Paribus (the less Variables, the pureest the comparison)...2 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.
Simple. Because an ability with low base damage, doesn't get the same damage increase from 1000 spell damage as an ability with a higher base damage.
What you are doing, is using absolute low end damage that has nothing to do with high end damage. The difference between abilities is not high to being with, it just becomes appearent as your own damage increases. Same goes for crits. An ability with higher base damage will also get more crit damage.
So the difference between crystal fragments and merciless gets even bigger if you take crits into consideration.
So in conclusion: The higher your own damage, the bigger the difference between abilities of varying base strenght gets.
But that's the thing, I've already showed you in the build editor than even when damage is maxed out, the difference is within 1k. I only showed these live values to you to show that my calcs are not wrong because you so stubbornly throw those out the window.
As I have showed you, your build editor is wrong.
Still you argue against it.
But I see, Nightblades are impossible to teach. So overloaded with strenght, they do not even see it.
Keep telling yourself and Zenimax how bad Grim Focus and your class is. It's laughable.
Sorry if this is old already...
But, what’s laughable is your inappropriate use of the scientific method, which should be used to minimize the number of variables, but instead have manipulated it to promote your bias.
That's exactly what I said, to be a fair comparison, he have to use the less possible variables. So that's naked characters with no gear, passives or CP, only compare the raw dmg of both skills...
Consistent passives that directly benefit the skills 100 percent of the time are not variables. Stop contributing to this because its clear you dont know what you are talking about.0 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.
Simple. Because an ability with low base damage, doesn't get the same damage increase from 1000 spell damage as an ability with a higher base damage.
What you are doing, is using absolute low end damage that has nothing to do with high end damage. The difference between abilities is not high to being with, it just becomes appearent as your own damage increases. Same goes for crits. An ability with higher base damage will also get more crit damage.
So the difference between crystal fragments and merciless gets even bigger if you take crits into consideration.
So in conclusion: The higher your own damage, the bigger the difference between abilities of varying base strenght gets.
But that's the thing, I've already showed you in the build editor than even when damage is maxed out, the difference is within 1k. I only showed these live values to you to show that my calcs are not wrong because you so stubbornly throw those out the window.
As I have showed you, your build editor is wrong.
Still you argue against it.
But I see, Nightblades are impossible to teach. So overloaded with strenght, they do not even see it.
Keep telling yourself and Zenimax how bad Grim Focus and your class is. It's laughable.
Sorry if this is old already...
But, what’s laughable is your inappropriate use of the scientific method, which should be used to minimize the number of variables, but instead have manipulated it to promote your bias.
That's exactly what I said, to be a fair comparison, he have to use the less possible variables. So that's naked characters with no gear, passives or CP, only compare the raw dmg of both skills...
Consistent passives that directly benefit the skills 100 percent of the time are not variables. Stop contributing to this because its clear you dont know what you are talking about.
So you will count passives (the ones you decided) but you won't count GCD or time to build up?... Also one class scale better with Max Magicka, the other with Spell Damage, etc.
How do you chose which variables you want to count and which not?
Seems that's is a biased test...
For the fifth time, Google the damn Scientific Method... The less variables, the pureest the comparison...4 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭At this point, I've moved on from the debate. Some people just wont accept that sorc is ez mode compared to magblades in pvp. We were never lacking in damage. It was just the difficulty in accessing that damage consistently, but to me it's not a problem because i'm used to it.
I never once said that DKs should lose reflect, either. All I asked for was snare/immob immunity and I'm already getting it. Anyway, bottomline is i'm happy magblades are getting a few buffs next patch in the defensive department which has been our biggest problem area.4
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