NB changes on stream

kaithuzar

@ZOS_Gilliam , @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Guys, I really appreciate the effort & time spent looking into & thinking about nightblade, you guys didn’t have to take another look at it, but you did & I appreciate that. We’ve just got 1 tiny problem with the merciless resolve change that was mentioned.

It was stated, something along the lines, of after you cast merciless each light attack you deal grants increased resistances/mitigation of some sort.

While this isn’t bad thinking, the problem is “landing” those light attacks & having them register.

Evasion/dodge, cloaking, reflect, absorption, shields(?), or just flat out missing the target means that you won’t be able to take advantage of this mentioned benefit.
It’s too easy to not proc a light attack against an opponent with all of these mitigating factors.

Is there any way to make light attacks more reliable or are there any other options or ideas for the skill?
People here have been tossing around quite a few.

-Kai

Nerftheforums

Oh yes, let's create this super powerful skill that should be your killing blow against your opponent AND GIVE IT TANKING FEATURES. I mean, it totally makes sense right? It's an assassin class that fires a super deadly bow thst grants damage reduction. It's GENIOUS.

Yakidafi

Mitigation is what the NB class lack the most of and since they decided to strip them of their damage I am happy they decide to give it more defense instead. In pvp this will see the most benefit since you hold on to your bow shot, in pve you just fire it whenever it is ready as a dps. Long time ago I played nb tank pve they have room for this skill?

Thanatos_inside

In laggy cyro.. really dunno if it`s good change

actosh

Yakidafi wrote: »

Mitigation is what the NB class lack the most of and since they decided to strip them of their damage I am happy they decide to give it more defense instead. In pvp this will see the most benefit since you hold on to your bow shot, in pve you just fire it whenever it is ready as a dps. Long time ago I played nb tank pve they have room for this skill?

We could make room as a tank for that skill, but with all the defensive stuff the basic eso tanks come, that extra mitigation from grim focus 5 stacks would only relate to some 1-3% effective mitigation. Asiangod allready mentioned that.

JinMori

Nice, but please increase the duration of resolve to 30 seconds.

Tommy_The_Gun

On live this skill give an immediate buff (Minor Berserk and Minor Endurance on the stamina morph). Hence the resource cost is justified.

On PTS it simply start to count light attacks (as Gilliamtherogue said, you pay resources to participate in a mini game).

Now it seems that they are planning to add another mini game to it, so you pay resources to participate in 2 mini - games.


Imho this skill should either provide a flat bonus & benefit (in other words a buff). If Minor Berserk and Minor Endurance are not "ok" then change the buff to something different.

If not, the other solution is to simply eliminate the initial cost. So the skill will simply count light attacks "while slotted" and you will only be paying resources for bow proc.

kalunte

if i were zeni i would make the spectral bow to proc minor vulnerability instead of teleport strike, so that it is still a very powerfull skill with a class identity label and you prevent it from being to bursty for pvp.

i guess in pve some pro-players with 5ms of latency could manage to land 2spectral bows proc within 8sec, but i seriously doubt it to be possible in pvp.

i see here two solutions about not pigeon-holding nb into melee behavior and nerf nb's spectral bow burst.

ps: add some minor force buff (10% crit dmg) as a passive on activation could be fair too so that the gcd and ressource cost is justified too.

Rex-Umbra

Melee nb don't use la do no dmg and range useless

Rianai

NB does not lack dmg mitigation or healing skills. But many of those skills lack reliability. Adding more unreliable defense such as a heal on the spectral bow or dmg reduction on LA isn't going to improve anything. I'd rather have them improve the already existing defensive/healing skills and keep dmg skills as they are, instead of making all skills do a little bit of everything without being good for anything.

Even more so after they nerfed skills to create a more distinct split between dmg/healing/tanking builds. I don't understand why they now move into the opposite direction again.

KatySpirit

The damage mitigation feels misplaced on this ability, I agree. A DPS wants to do damage, not stop it.

As a NB healer, I have enough survivability between self heals and nightblade's other damage mitigation. I won't waste a bar slot on a skill that doesn't help my allies. If they want to give us some more defense, I would rather see Path offer damage mitigation to everyone who stands on it.

And I don't believe it is practical to expect Nightblade tanks to rely on Grim Focus/Merciless Resolve for a burst heal because I don't think they can hit hard enough with it to make it heal for very much. At this rate they are going to need to dedicate an entire bar to various heals because none of their heals do very much and combining them is their only hope. I like the proposal of the front loaded Dark Cloak that I saw mention on these forums, because Cloak is health based, not damage/max magic based.

That said, I really do appreciate the devs trying and looking at skills and listening way better than other games who ignore their players!

exeeter702

Im absolutely happy with the change. Resolve was on my bar as a healer before anyways, now this is a nice mitigation boon for pvp.

The issue im having now, is swapping it out for double take was the plan but now i need to figure out what to give for both of these abilities.

technohic

So when you fire it, do you lose the defense with the proc stacks?

exeeter702

technohic wrote: »

So when you fire it, do you lose the defense with the proc stacks?

It would seem that since wheels said you gained the mitigation per counter.

Jeezye

exeeter702 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

So when you fire it, do you lose the defense with the proc stacks?

It would seem that since wheels said you gained the mitigation per counter.

That'd be super counter intuitive, why would you want to build up resistances just to throw them away to do damage. Let's wait for the implementation on monday before actually speculating on weird stuff

Iskiab

The people complaining about this are crazy, it sounded overpowered but am not sure if I misunderstood what he said.

If it’s a 3% mitigation buff per stack, so I can hold it for passive 15% damage reduction... and if I’m in execute range from being focused in melee pop it for a self burst heal... yes it’s OP. Did he mean at max stacks it’ll be almost twice as strong as minor protection?

Complaining about an obviously OP ability is just silly.

NB tanks will now use it for a burst heal that’s better than the old dark cloak. They should be happy because light attack weaving with blocking can be a little tricky, which will lead to a higher skill cap for NB tanks. Most love mastering a difficult class if it leads to higher performance.

Melee pvp Magblades probably had to change their underwear after watching the video.

Apxac

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

On live this skill give an immediate buff (Minor Berserk and Minor Endurance on the stamina morph). Hence the resource cost is justified.

On PTS it simply start to count light attacks (as Gilliamtherogue said, you pay resources to participate in a mini game).

Now it seems that they are planning to add another mini game to it, so you pay resources to participate in 2 mini - games.


Imho this skill should either provide a flat bonus & benefit (in other words a buff). If Minor Berserk and Minor Endurance are not "ok" then change the buff to something different.

If not, the other solution is to simply eliminate the initial cost. So the skill will simply count light attacks "while slotted" and you will only be paying resources for bow proc.

Why do it normally, if you can do it as always? Developers again and again do not listen to players, again ignore posts on the forum. Who needs mitigation? Give reliable healing, this is not enough for a night blade. Again, trying to bring us closer, but how does mitigation justify a high-risk game? Great witchcraft / cruelty and superior prophecy / wildness would be a powerful pre-buff to attack, but instead we will give you a softening. I think that I will no longer participate in discussions, nobody pays attention to this.

Dracane

Sure, give the hardest hitting burst in the game damage mitigation on top.
Nightblades are so used to having potent passives on most of their abilities....

An ability like this does not need a passive at all, it has its high damage.
Some lesser used nightblade abilities/morphs could surely be brought to life by giving them something like this.

Ankael07

A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game


and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak

Jhalin

Ankael07 wrote: »

A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game


and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak

We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE

We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class

frostz417

Jhalin wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game


and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak

We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE

We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class

NB is completely damage carried... honestly their damage needed to be toned down because it’s absurd in both PvP and pve. Especially since both mag and StamNB have dominated the end game pve scene for over a year. Plus grim focus was literally the hardest hitting single target ability in the game. The loss of minor bezer was well deserved. Time to adapt like other classes did when they received heavy nerfs.

Iskiab

Jhalin wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game


and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak

We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE

We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class

Well your complaints are going to fall on deaf ears. It’s obvious they did a pass and reduced big damage abilities to limit pvp burst.

Basicly ZoS is saying, ‘hey Nightblades, people don’t like that incap can stun lock and kill pvp noobs without enough resistance with no counter play. We’re going to limit your burst’.

I find the people who keep asking for more glass canon at the expense of survivability baffling. You want to be stuck in the noob ganking playstyle? If you ever want to be able to get better and do something else survivability is what you need.

I’m sorry to say, but if you’re one of the numerous NBs who’s only tactic is to try ganking me and fail, then cloak away you’ve never learned how to pvp. Half the time I break free - mass hysteria and don’t even look back anymore, I know the NB has run away back into stealth and can be ignored. Might as well take out the threats and then NB last.

LordTareq

Summary of the changes?

Strider__Roshin

Can I get a link to this stream?

twing1_

This damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense.

This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyle. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and ZOS seems to be only promoting this even further with this change.

Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea?

Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.

thankyourat

frostz417 wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game


and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak

We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE

We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class

NB is completely damage carried... honestly their damage needed to be toned down because it’s absurd in both PvP and pve. Especially since both mag and StamNB have dominated the end game pve scene for over a year. Plus grim focus was literally the hardest hitting single target ability in the game. The loss of minor bezer was well deserved. Time to adapt like other classes did when they received heavy nerfs.

Do you feel it should be nerfed to do the same damage as Crystal frags though? Because without the minor berserk Crystal frags and the spectral bow will be hitting for the same damage, but Crystal frags requires much less micromanaging and doesn't need 2GCD to use. I feel as though nightblade burst damage is comparable to warden and sorc already on live without the nerfs. If you look at it Crystal frag is already the second strongest ability in the game only merciless and ice comet have higher damage.

Now you add in curse which has similar damage to soul harvest and actually does more damage than soul tether which is basically unavoidable and combine that with a execute that auto procs and a matriarch that passively hits like a truck and all of this can be combined to hit in 1GCD you realize pretty fast that nightblade burst damage isn't really that high in comparison.

Warden burst damage is also comparable while being all AOE damage which is easy to avoid 1v1 but can get very difficult to avoid Xv1 or in GvG situations. Wardens also have just as many buffs and debuffs as nightblades while being just as tanky as a DK or Templar while having twice the burst damage so they are completely outclassing both of those specs. Nightblade damage has now been nerfed so where on live it's equal to warden and less than sorc it is now less than both specs while not being granted the defensive abilities of those classes.

Iskiab

Daus wrote: »

Can I get a link to this stream?

https://youtu.be/TiL5MzzniD4

twing1_ wrote: »

This damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense.

This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyles. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and ZOS seems to be only promoting this even further with this change.

Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea?

Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.

Are you sure this is the class’ identity? Where does it say that?

What you’re describing is a playstyle, not a class. You may be projecting what stamblade has been in pvp vs the intent of the class.

Without a doubt it’s a stealth class, but ambush from the shadows and then back to the shadows if it doesn’t work? If that’s all a class was it’d be a pretty crappy class.

MartiniDaniels

So I guess in PVE, grim focus is gone forever and we must use a weak dot from lotus fan and apply minor vulnerability, which is applied by healer anyway. Cool.

LordTareq

twing1_ wrote: »

This damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense.

This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyles. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and ZOS seems to be only promoting this even further with this change.

Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea?

Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.

What a load of bollocks.

Ankael07

twing1_ wrote: »

This damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense.

This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyles. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and ZOS seems to be only promoting this even further with this change.

Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea?

Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.

Youre talking like they removed invisibility from Cloak. You can still ''unleash strong burst from stealth'' but now its easier for people to actually react and heal

These changes give people a chance to get back up while keeping NBs offensive momentum by giving them defense on attacking skills

Strider__Roshin

I think this is an awesome change! Honestly the ability to survive without having to use cloak is a dream come true for me