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NB changes on stream
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kalunte✭✭✭✭✭could someone, anyone, explain me how giving a +3/6/9/12/15% dmg reduction to an offensive skill makes it "highly risky"?
it would be a "high risk/high reward" skill if it was lowering your defenses by 3/6/9/12/15% and dealing 3/6/9/12/15% moar dmg.
or maybe i'm a complete dumb...2 -
Quaesivi✭✭✭All of it simply feels like they have absolutely no idea how a "rogue" should play as. Either that or they simply hate the rogue playstyle and want to ruin it completely and forever, which in that case, they are definitely on the right track.2 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For the record lets analyse things stamblade is loosing and getting as for now in Elsweyr
1. Stamblade looses :
- fracture on supprise attack
- minor berserk and minor endurance on relentless focus
- defile on incap
- minor maim on mass hysteria
2. Stamblade gets :
- no cost on mark
- vulnerability on ambush
- heal , 10 seconds more duration and up to 15% dmg mitigation on relentless focus
- something on incap (they've said they'll change mangle to something better)
- 4 more targets on mass hysteria (6 targets in total)
- 50% damage on power extracion (25% to base ability and 20% to morph is 50% in total)
- flanking penetration debuff on supprise attack
- shade dealing dmg based on higher stats
People really think stamblade will get heavily nerfed ?Edited by Juhasow on April 28, 2019 9:32AM6 -
Quaesivi✭✭✭For the record lets analyse things stamblade is loosing and getting as for now in Elsweyr
1. Stamblade looses :
- fracture on supprise attack
- minor berserk and minor endurance on relentless focus
- defile on incap
- minor maim on mass hysteria
2. Stamblade gets :
- no cost on mark
- vulnerability on ambush
- heal , 10 seconds more duration and up to 15% dmg mitigation on relentless focus
- something on incap (they've said they'll change mangle to something better)
- 4 more targets on mass hysteria (6 targets in total)
- 50% damage on power extracion (25% to base ability and 20% to morph is 50% in total)
- flanking penetration debuff on supprise attack
- shade dealing dmg based on higher stats
People really think stamblade will get heavily nerfed ?
I'll be honest with you, stamblade will more or less stay the same.
But the Magblades are being gutted to no end, for the sake of nerfing stamblades, which are ending up relatively untouched.2 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For the record lets analyse things stamblade is loosing and getting as for now in Elsweyr
1. Stamblade looses :
- fracture on supprise attack
- minor berserk and minor endurance on relentless focus
- defile on incap
- minor maim on mass hysteria
2. Stamblade gets :
- no cost on mark
- vulnerability on ambush
- heal , 10 seconds more duration and up to 15% dmg mitigation on relentless focus
- something on incap (they've said they'll change mangle to something better)
- 4 more targets on mass hysteria (6 targets in total)
- 50% damage on power extracion (25% to base ability and 20% to morph is 50% in total)
- flanking penetration debuff on supprise attack
- shade dealing dmg based on higher stats
People really think stamblade will get heavily nerfed ?
I'll be honest with you, stamblade will more or less stay the same.
But the Magblades are being gutted to no end, for the sake of nerfing stamblades, which are ending up relatively untouched.
That's the point. Once again ZoS fails to finally deal with stamblades in PvP. They're just nerfing 1 thing to buff other and at the end of the day stamblade will change not that much. I wouldnt agree that magblade is getting gutted since changes like wings not reflecting projectiles anymore or new race against time will definietly buff PvP magblades but it's just slight buffing of the setup that is way behind of its stamina counterpart while stamblade will remain as strong as it is. ZoS once again shows mastery and making lot of changes to change nothing at the end when it comes to stamblade. The only question remains is that because of their incapability to balance things or just bias towards stamblade.Edited by Juhasow on April 28, 2019 10:36AM1 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You could make grim focus give you 50 % resistance, and people would still complain about the lack of minor berserk.
Look, increase the duration of both to 30 sec and resistance, and it will be not worse, not equal, but BETTER than before.3 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭Another interesting thing about the leaked protection is that it should apply before shields which should make magblades' "Ward Ally" shields during or near execute hold a bit better and allow a better offensive/recovery window.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You could make grim focus give you 50 % resistance, and people would still complain about the lack of minor berserk.
Look, increase the duration of both to 30 sec and resistance, and it will be not worse, not equal, but BETTER than before.
Yes, 30 seconds will compensate GCD and magicka cost for PVE magblades and in the same time make them tanky enough to go melee in PVP. But devs somehow managed to nerf not-OP magblade and rebalance OP stamblade. So with all this changes you can't say for sure if stamblades were nerfed at all (they are changed, but it seems they can adapt), while magblade is thrown to questionable mag-melee in PVP and into full healer dependency in PVE.2 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭You could make grim focus give you 50 % resistance, and people would still complain about the lack of minor berserk.
Probably because it could end up with something along the line of "Reduced the damage of Assassin's Will by 65%, because a defensive skill shouldn't deal that much damage. Increased the bonus dmg of Assassin's Blade and morphs to enemies below 25% health from 300% to 320% to compensate for the lost damage."4 -
kalunte✭✭✭✭✭You could make grim focus give you 50 % resistance, and people would still complain about the lack of minor berserk.
Look, increase the duration of both to 30 sec and resistance, and it will be not worse, not equal, but BETTER than before.
i guess ppl that plays a rogue-like class expect this class to do dmg and lack of surviability.. making such a class' best template (for pvp) a brawler template is pretty disturbing to the most.
if such players were looking for a basic brawler, they would have role a templar/dk/warden in the first place.3 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭For the record lets analyse things stamblade is loosing and getting as for now in Elsweyr
1. Stamblade looses :
- fracture on supprise attack
- minor berserk and minor endurance on relentless focus
- defile on incap
- minor maim on mass hysteria
2. Stamblade gets :
- no cost on mark
- vulnerability on ambush
- heal , 10 seconds more duration and up to 15% dmg mitigation on relentless focus
- something on incap (they've said they'll change mangle to something better)
- 4 more targets on mass hysteria (6 targets in total)
- 50% damage on power extracion (25% to base ability and 20% to morph is 50% in total)
- flanking penetration debuff on supprise attack
- shade dealing dmg based on higher stats
People really think stamblade will get heavily nerfed ?
I'll be honest with you, stamblade will more or less stay the same.
But the Magblades are being gutted to no end, for the sake of nerfing stamblades, which are ending up relatively untouched.
Actually with all the changes magblades received this update and some testing I feel like magblades are in a way better spot than they were last patch. They haven’t necessarily received major buffs yet, but they feel way better suited to fight a playstyle out of permacloaking now and I’m really looking forward to play them again next update1 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭thankyourat wrote: »A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game
and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak
We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE
We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class
NB is completely damage carried... honestly their damage needed to be toned down because it’s absurd in both PvP and pve. Especially since both mag and StamNB have dominated the end game pve scene for over a year. Plus grim focus was literally the hardest hitting single target ability in the game. The loss of minor bezer was well deserved. Time to adapt like other classes did when they received heavy nerfs.
Do you feel it should be nerfed to do the same damage as Crystal frags though? Because without the minor berserk Crystal frags and the spectral bow will be hitting for the same damage, but Crystal frags requires much less micromanaging and doesn't need 2GCD to use. I feel as though nightblade burst damage is comparable to warden and sorc already on live without the nerfs. If you look at it Crystal frag is already the second strongest ability in the game only merciless and ice comet have higher damage.
Now you add in curse which has similar damage to soul harvest and actually does more damage than soul tether which is basically unavoidable and combine that with a execute that auto procs and a matriarch that passively hits like a truck and all of this can be combined to hit in 1GCD you realize pretty fast that nightblade burst damage isn't really that high in comparison.
Warden burst damage is also comparable while being all AOE damage which is easy to avoid 1v1 but can get very difficult to avoid Xv1 or in GvG situations. Wardens also have just as many buffs and debuffs as nightblades while being just as tanky as a DK or Templar while having twice the burst damage so they are completely outclassing both of those specs. Nightblade damage has now been nerfed so where on live it's equal to warden and less than sorc it is now less than both specs while not being granted the defensive abilities of those classes.
Not true. Grim Focus still hits for significantly more.
In my tests, it was well 5k more damage without crits. With the exact same gear and stats.
I think you forgot to add 20% damage bonus to frag procs.
I've done a lot of comparisons using uesp and the damage is very very similar.
EDIT: See this post i made on the pts last week (this is without minor berserk):So the hardest hitting ability in the game is nothing now ? OK.....
20K C frags are a regular occurrence on magsorcs right now, they proc every 2-3 seconds, can be thrown in every single combo a sorc throws at you.
Most assassin's scourges are 20-22K, and you might be able to build one in 10 seconds at the very minimum. I'll take a 2K decrease if they proc like a C frags, any day
20k frags on regular occurance lel. Well atleast now I know it's a troll thread.
So I put together a quick magblade build using the uesp.net build editor. Fully buffed, correct skill bars, the damage of spectral bow is 21,656.
I then switched it to a magsorc. With the same sets, all passives obtained, and exactly the same CP and buffs tabs, correct skill bars, frags has a tooltip of 20,762
Frags. 17302*1.2:
Merciless.
I forgot nothing. You forgot to remove the Amplitude passive of Sorcerers, which likely caused you to deal 9% extra damage or so. Since this passive is too unreliable in pvp, I remove it for all my static damage tests. So I can see the true base damage.
The damage difference between fragments and grim focus is still considerable, depending on your build. I can only assume, that your damage values were lower, thus the % difference also gets lower. I tested scenarios with stats that matter the most to me, with Imperial Physique. My Grim focus dealt 4-5 more damage there.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.0 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭You could make grim focus give you 50 % resistance, and people would still complain about the lack of minor berserk.
Look, increase the duration of both to 30 sec and resistance, and it will be not worse, not equal, but BETTER than before.
i guess ppl that plays a rogue-like class expect this class to do dmg and lack of surviability.. making such a class' best template (for pvp) a brawler template is pretty disturbing to the most.
if such players were looking for a basic brawler, they would have role a templar/dk/warden in the first place.You could make grim focus give you 50 % resistance, and people would still complain about the lack of minor berserk.
Look, increase the duration of both to 30 sec and resistance, and it will be not worse, not equal, but BETTER than before.
i guess ppl that plays a rogue-like class expect this class to do dmg and lack of surviability.. making such a class' best template (for pvp) a brawler template is pretty disturbing to the most.
if such players were looking for a basic brawler, they would have role a templar/dk/warden in the first place.
The protection will benefit brawlers the least because it is almost certainly like all other forms of Protection multiplicative.
Instead maybe magblades will have the tools to survive long enough to use their Shadow Disguise and Shadow Image to play a rogue style instead of a global cooldown ganker only style. I mean if you think nightblades should be able to global anyone and be globaled by anyone I doubt ZOS will agree but you can argue for that instead?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p10 -
KatySpirit✭✭✭Nightblade does not need more mitigation, nightblade needs a reliable heal.
*Mainly for tanking, since they plan to basically destroy the one they currently have.
PVE magblades have great self healing and survivability because they hit hard enough with the abilities that heal them scaled on damage done. They don't need light attacks to give them MORE defense. PVE tanks can't heal for nearly as much with these skills and so all these damage based healing moves will not be enough alone and will take up all their bar space. From what I hear PVPers find healing based on damage to be unreliable. Nightblade has a lot of defense, but defense eventually falls flat if you can't heal yourself.Tanks: Warden, Nightblade, Dragonknight
Healers: Nightblade, Templar, Warden, Sorcerer, Dragonknight, Necromancer
DPS: Magsorc, Magblade, Magplar, MagDK, Stamblade, StamNecro1 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭thankyourat wrote: »A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game
and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak
We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE
We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class
NB is completely damage carried... honestly their damage needed to be toned down because it’s absurd in both PvP and pve. Especially since both mag and StamNB have dominated the end game pve scene for over a year. Plus grim focus was literally the hardest hitting single target ability in the game. The loss of minor bezer was well deserved. Time to adapt like other classes did when they received heavy nerfs.
Do you feel it should be nerfed to do the same damage as Crystal frags though? Because without the minor berserk Crystal frags and the spectral bow will be hitting for the same damage, but Crystal frags requires much less micromanaging and doesn't need 2GCD to use. I feel as though nightblade burst damage is comparable to warden and sorc already on live without the nerfs. If you look at it Crystal frag is already the second strongest ability in the game only merciless and ice comet have higher damage.
Now you add in curse which has similar damage to soul harvest and actually does more damage than soul tether which is basically unavoidable and combine that with a execute that auto procs and a matriarch that passively hits like a truck and all of this can be combined to hit in 1GCD you realize pretty fast that nightblade burst damage isn't really that high in comparison.
Warden burst damage is also comparable while being all AOE damage which is easy to avoid 1v1 but can get very difficult to avoid Xv1 or in GvG situations. Wardens also have just as many buffs and debuffs as nightblades while being just as tanky as a DK or Templar while having twice the burst damage so they are completely outclassing both of those specs. Nightblade damage has now been nerfed so where on live it's equal to warden and less than sorc it is now less than both specs while not being granted the defensive abilities of those classes.
Not true. Grim Focus still hits for significantly more.
In my tests, it was well 5k more damage without crits. With the exact same gear and stats.
I think you forgot to add 20% damage bonus to frag procs.
I've done a lot of comparisons using uesp and the damage is very very similar.
EDIT: See this post i made on the pts last week (this is without minor berserk):So the hardest hitting ability in the game is nothing now ? OK.....
20K C frags are a regular occurrence on magsorcs right now, they proc every 2-3 seconds, can be thrown in every single combo a sorc throws at you.
Most assassin's scourges are 20-22K, and you might be able to build one in 10 seconds at the very minimum. I'll take a 2K decrease if they proc like a C frags, any day
20k frags on regular occurance lel. Well atleast now I know it's a troll thread.
So I put together a quick magblade build using the uesp.net build editor. Fully buffed, correct skill bars, the damage of spectral bow is 21,656.
I then switched it to a magsorc. With the same sets, all passives obtained, and exactly the same CP and buffs tabs, correct skill bars, frags has a tooltip of 20,762
Frags. 17302*1.2:
Merciless.
I forgot nothing. You forgot to remove the Amplitude passive of Sorcerers, which likely caused you to deal 9% extra damage or so. Since this passive is too unreliable in pvp, I remove it for all my static damage tests. So I can see the true base damage.
The damage difference between fragments and grim focus is still considerable, depending on your build. I can only assume, that your damage values were lower, thus the % difference also gets lower. I tested scenarios with stats that matter the most to me, with Imperial Physique. My Grim focus dealt 4-5 more damage there.
Show me your sheets? I'll be glad to accept that I'm wrong if i am proven wrong.
I recreated my tests with as max damage as possible using war maiden and innate axiom. I also put unreasonably high CPs.
Bow proc is at 28k.
Frags proc is at 27k
Amplitude has no effect on the tooltips of the uesp.net build editor, but I removed it for your sake.2 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭thankyourat wrote: »A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game
and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak
We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE
We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class
NB is completely damage carried... honestly their damage needed to be toned down because it’s absurd in both PvP and pve. Especially since both mag and StamNB have dominated the end game pve scene for over a year. Plus grim focus was literally the hardest hitting single target ability in the game. The loss of minor bezer was well deserved. Time to adapt like other classes did when they received heavy nerfs.
Do you feel it should be nerfed to do the same damage as Crystal frags though? Because without the minor berserk Crystal frags and the spectral bow will be hitting for the same damage, but Crystal frags requires much less micromanaging and doesn't need 2GCD to use. I feel as though nightblade burst damage is comparable to warden and sorc already on live without the nerfs. If you look at it Crystal frag is already the second strongest ability in the game only merciless and ice comet have higher damage.
Now you add in curse which has similar damage to soul harvest and actually does more damage than soul tether which is basically unavoidable and combine that with a execute that auto procs and a matriarch that passively hits like a truck and all of this can be combined to hit in 1GCD you realize pretty fast that nightblade burst damage isn't really that high in comparison.
Warden burst damage is also comparable while being all AOE damage which is easy to avoid 1v1 but can get very difficult to avoid Xv1 or in GvG situations. Wardens also have just as many buffs and debuffs as nightblades while being just as tanky as a DK or Templar while having twice the burst damage so they are completely outclassing both of those specs. Nightblade damage has now been nerfed so where on live it's equal to warden and less than sorc it is now less than both specs while not being granted the defensive abilities of those classes.
Not true. Grim Focus still hits for significantly more.
In my tests, it was well 5k more damage without crits. With the exact same gear and stats.
I think you forgot to add 20% damage bonus to frag procs.
I've done a lot of comparisons using uesp and the damage is very very similar.
EDIT: See this post i made on the pts last week (this is without minor berserk):So the hardest hitting ability in the game is nothing now ? OK.....
20K C frags are a regular occurrence on magsorcs right now, they proc every 2-3 seconds, can be thrown in every single combo a sorc throws at you.
Most assassin's scourges are 20-22K, and you might be able to build one in 10 seconds at the very minimum. I'll take a 2K decrease if they proc like a C frags, any day
20k frags on regular occurance lel. Well atleast now I know it's a troll thread.
So I put together a quick magblade build using the uesp.net build editor. Fully buffed, correct skill bars, the damage of spectral bow is 21,656.
I then switched it to a magsorc. With the same sets, all passives obtained, and exactly the same CP and buffs tabs, correct skill bars, frags has a tooltip of 20,762
Frags. 17302*1.2:
Merciless.
I forgot nothing. You forgot to remove the Amplitude passive of Sorcerers, which likely caused you to deal 9% extra damage or so. Since this passive is too unreliable in pvp, I remove it for all my static damage tests. So I can see the true base damage.
The damage difference between fragments and grim focus is still considerable, depending on your build. I can only assume, that your damage values were lower, thus the % difference also gets lower. I tested scenarios with stats that matter the most to me, with Imperial Physique. My Grim focus dealt 4-5 more damage there.
Show me your sheets? I'll be glad to accept that I'm wrong if i am proven wrong.
I recreated my tests with as max damage as possible using war maiden and innate axiom. I also put unreasonably high CPs.
Bow proc is at 28k.
Frags proc is at 27k
Amplitude has no effect on the tooltips of the uesp.net build editor, but I removed it for your sake.
Tooltips are for beginners. The actual hit counts.
But I will take some pictures when I go on the pts later.
I will come back to you.
Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.1 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭thankyourat wrote: »A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game
and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak
We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE
We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class
NB is completely damage carried... honestly their damage needed to be toned down because it’s absurd in both PvP and pve. Especially since both mag and StamNB have dominated the end game pve scene for over a year. Plus grim focus was literally the hardest hitting single target ability in the game. The loss of minor bezer was well deserved. Time to adapt like other classes did when they received heavy nerfs.
Do you feel it should be nerfed to do the same damage as Crystal frags though? Because without the minor berserk Crystal frags and the spectral bow will be hitting for the same damage, but Crystal frags requires much less micromanaging and doesn't need 2GCD to use. I feel as though nightblade burst damage is comparable to warden and sorc already on live without the nerfs. If you look at it Crystal frag is already the second strongest ability in the game only merciless and ice comet have higher damage.
Now you add in curse which has similar damage to soul harvest and actually does more damage than soul tether which is basically unavoidable and combine that with a execute that auto procs and a matriarch that passively hits like a truck and all of this can be combined to hit in 1GCD you realize pretty fast that nightblade burst damage isn't really that high in comparison.
Warden burst damage is also comparable while being all AOE damage which is easy to avoid 1v1 but can get very difficult to avoid Xv1 or in GvG situations. Wardens also have just as many buffs and debuffs as nightblades while being just as tanky as a DK or Templar while having twice the burst damage so they are completely outclassing both of those specs. Nightblade damage has now been nerfed so where on live it's equal to warden and less than sorc it is now less than both specs while not being granted the defensive abilities of those classes.
Not true. Grim Focus still hits for significantly more.
In my tests, it was well 5k more damage without crits. With the exact same gear and stats.
I think you forgot to add 20% damage bonus to frag procs.
I've done a lot of comparisons using uesp and the damage is very very similar.
EDIT: See this post i made on the pts last week (this is without minor berserk):So the hardest hitting ability in the game is nothing now ? OK.....
20K C frags are a regular occurrence on magsorcs right now, they proc every 2-3 seconds, can be thrown in every single combo a sorc throws at you.
Most assassin's scourges are 20-22K, and you might be able to build one in 10 seconds at the very minimum. I'll take a 2K decrease if they proc like a C frags, any day
20k frags on regular occurance lel. Well atleast now I know it's a troll thread.
So I put together a quick magblade build using the uesp.net build editor. Fully buffed, correct skill bars, the damage of spectral bow is 21,656.
I then switched it to a magsorc. With the same sets, all passives obtained, and exactly the same CP and buffs tabs, correct skill bars, frags has a tooltip of 20,762
Frags. 17302*1.2:
Merciless.
I forgot nothing. You forgot to remove the Amplitude passive of Sorcerers, which likely caused you to deal 9% extra damage or so. Since this passive is too unreliable in pvp, I remove it for all my static damage tests. So I can see the true base damage.
The damage difference between fragments and grim focus is still considerable, depending on your build. I can only assume, that your damage values were lower, thus the % difference also gets lower. I tested scenarios with stats that matter the most to me, with Imperial Physique. My Grim focus dealt 4-5 more damage there.
Show me your sheets? I'll be glad to accept that I'm wrong if i am proven wrong.
I recreated my tests with as max damage as possible using war maiden and innate axiom. I also put unreasonably high CPs.
Bow proc is at 28k.
Frags proc is at 27k
Amplitude has no effect on the tooltips of the uesp.net build editor, but I removed it for your sake.
Tooltips are for beginners. The actual hit counts. But I will take some pictures when I go on the pts later.
I will come back to you.
Uhh lol?
I thought we were comparing the skill by itself because the point was frags is waay easier to proc than bow, and it deals the same damage? In practice of course damage numbers will be different because it depends on the target you're hitting (eg his resistances, his buffs, etc.), and the rotation of the player (i.e. was soul harvest cast before, etc)2 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭KatySpirit wrote: »Nightblade does not need more mitigation, nightblade needs a reliable heal.
*Mainly for tanking, since they plan to basically destroy the one they currently have.
PVE magblades have great self healing and survivability because they hit hard enough with the abilities that heal them scaled on damage done. They don't need light attacks to give them MORE defense. PVE tanks can't heal for nearly as much with these skills and so all these damage based healing moves will not be enough alone and will take up all their bar space. From what I hear PVPers find healing based on damage to be unreliable. Nightblade has a lot of defense, but defense eventually falls flat if you can't heal yourself.
Magicka Nightblade actually doesn't have a lot of reliable defenses on live. (Shadowy Disguise on live is an actively bad skill against competent players, Shadow Image is bugged, and neither skill actually substantively helps you win a fight where your opponent both out damage and out tank you which is common on live.)
Buffing magblade healing would overload PVE survivability even more which is something ZOS just nerfed a couple of patches ago. I wouldn't call PVE nightblade tank dead with the current nerfs for the tanking heal. Nightblade tank would be meta with the PTS heal if it gave a better unique dps increase than Engulfing Flames.4 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭thankyourat wrote: »A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game
and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak
We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE
We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class
NB is completely damage carried... honestly their damage needed to be toned down because it’s absurd in both PvP and pve. Especially since both mag and StamNB have dominated the end game pve scene for over a year. Plus grim focus was literally the hardest hitting single target ability in the game. The loss of minor bezer was well deserved. Time to adapt like other classes did when they received heavy nerfs.
Do you feel it should be nerfed to do the same damage as Crystal frags though? Because without the minor berserk Crystal frags and the spectral bow will be hitting for the same damage, but Crystal frags requires much less micromanaging and doesn't need 2GCD to use. I feel as though nightblade burst damage is comparable to warden and sorc already on live without the nerfs. If you look at it Crystal frag is already the second strongest ability in the game only merciless and ice comet have higher damage.
Now you add in curse which has similar damage to soul harvest and actually does more damage than soul tether which is basically unavoidable and combine that with a execute that auto procs and a matriarch that passively hits like a truck and all of this can be combined to hit in 1GCD you realize pretty fast that nightblade burst damage isn't really that high in comparison.
Warden burst damage is also comparable while being all AOE damage which is easy to avoid 1v1 but can get very difficult to avoid Xv1 or in GvG situations. Wardens also have just as many buffs and debuffs as nightblades while being just as tanky as a DK or Templar while having twice the burst damage so they are completely outclassing both of those specs. Nightblade damage has now been nerfed so where on live it's equal to warden and less than sorc it is now less than both specs while not being granted the defensive abilities of those classes.
Not true. Grim Focus still hits for significantly more.
In my tests, it was well 5k more damage without crits. With the exact same gear and stats.
I think you forgot to add 20% damage bonus to frag procs.
I've done a lot of comparisons using uesp and the damage is very very similar.
EDIT: See this post i made on the pts last week (this is without minor berserk):So the hardest hitting ability in the game is nothing now ? OK.....
20K C frags are a regular occurrence on magsorcs right now, they proc every 2-3 seconds, can be thrown in every single combo a sorc throws at you.
Most assassin's scourges are 20-22K, and you might be able to build one in 10 seconds at the very minimum. I'll take a 2K decrease if they proc like a C frags, any day
20k frags on regular occurance lel. Well atleast now I know it's a troll thread.
So I put together a quick magblade build using the uesp.net build editor. Fully buffed, correct skill bars, the damage of spectral bow is 21,656.
I then switched it to a magsorc. With the same sets, all passives obtained, and exactly the same CP and buffs tabs, correct skill bars, frags has a tooltip of 20,762
Frags. 17302*1.2:
Merciless.
I forgot nothing. You forgot to remove the Amplitude passive of Sorcerers, which likely caused you to deal 9% extra damage or so. Since this passive is too unreliable in pvp, I remove it for all my static damage tests. So I can see the true base damage.
The damage difference between fragments and grim focus is still considerable, depending on your build. I can only assume, that your damage values were lower, thus the % difference also gets lower. I tested scenarios with stats that matter the most to me, with Imperial Physique. My Grim focus dealt 4-5 more damage there.
Show me your sheets? I'll be glad to accept that I'm wrong if i am proven wrong.
I recreated my tests with as max damage as possible using war maiden and innate axiom. I also put unreasonably high CPs.
Bow proc is at 28k.
Frags proc is at 27k
Amplitude has no effect on the tooltips of the uesp.net build editor, but I removed it for your sake.
Tooltips are for beginners. The actual hit counts. But I will take some pictures when I go on the pts later.
I will come back to you.
Uhh lol?
I thought we were comparing the skill by itself because the point was frags is waay easier to proc than bow, and it deals the same damage? In practice of course damage numbers will be different because it depends on the target you're hitting (eg his resistances, his buffs, etc.), and the rotation of the player (i.e. was soul harvest cast before, etc)
Frags are easier to proc for sure. But the tooltips you are having there, can not be true.
And now where grim focus is getting all these survival extras, I think it turns into a heavy overloaded ability, that is already strong enough as it is.
Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.0 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭thankyourat wrote: »A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game
and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak
We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE
We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class
NB is completely damage carried... honestly their damage needed to be toned down because it’s absurd in both PvP and pve. Especially since both mag and StamNB have dominated the end game pve scene for over a year. Plus grim focus was literally the hardest hitting single target ability in the game. The loss of minor bezer was well deserved. Time to adapt like other classes did when they received heavy nerfs.
Do you feel it should be nerfed to do the same damage as Crystal frags though? Because without the minor berserk Crystal frags and the spectral bow will be hitting for the same damage, but Crystal frags requires much less micromanaging and doesn't need 2GCD to use. I feel as though nightblade burst damage is comparable to warden and sorc already on live without the nerfs. If you look at it Crystal frag is already the second strongest ability in the game only merciless and ice comet have higher damage.
Now you add in curse which has similar damage to soul harvest and actually does more damage than soul tether which is basically unavoidable and combine that with a execute that auto procs and a matriarch that passively hits like a truck and all of this can be combined to hit in 1GCD you realize pretty fast that nightblade burst damage isn't really that high in comparison.
Warden burst damage is also comparable while being all AOE damage which is easy to avoid 1v1 but can get very difficult to avoid Xv1 or in GvG situations. Wardens also have just as many buffs and debuffs as nightblades while being just as tanky as a DK or Templar while having twice the burst damage so they are completely outclassing both of those specs. Nightblade damage has now been nerfed so where on live it's equal to warden and less than sorc it is now less than both specs while not being granted the defensive abilities of those classes.
Not true. Grim Focus still hits for significantly more.
In my tests, it was well 5k more damage without crits. With the exact same gear and stats.
I think you forgot to add 20% damage bonus to frag procs.
I've done a lot of comparisons using uesp and the damage is very very similar.
EDIT: See this post i made on the pts last week (this is without minor berserk):So the hardest hitting ability in the game is nothing now ? OK.....
20K C frags are a regular occurrence on magsorcs right now, they proc every 2-3 seconds, can be thrown in every single combo a sorc throws at you.
Most assassin's scourges are 20-22K, and you might be able to build one in 10 seconds at the very minimum. I'll take a 2K decrease if they proc like a C frags, any day
20k frags on regular occurance lel. Well atleast now I know it's a troll thread.
So I put together a quick magblade build using the uesp.net build editor. Fully buffed, correct skill bars, the damage of spectral bow is 21,656.
I then switched it to a magsorc. With the same sets, all passives obtained, and exactly the same CP and buffs tabs, correct skill bars, frags has a tooltip of 20,762
Frags. 17302*1.2:
Merciless.
I forgot nothing. You forgot to remove the Amplitude passive of Sorcerers, which likely caused you to deal 9% extra damage or so. Since this passive is too unreliable in pvp, I remove it for all my static damage tests. So I can see the true base damage.
The damage difference between fragments and grim focus is still considerable, depending on your build. I can only assume, that your damage values were lower, thus the % difference also gets lower. I tested scenarios with stats that matter the most to me, with Imperial Physique. My Grim focus dealt 4-5 more damage there.
Show me your sheets? I'll be glad to accept that I'm wrong if i am proven wrong.
I recreated my tests with as max damage as possible using war maiden and innate axiom. I also put unreasonably high CPs.
Bow proc is at 28k.
Frags proc is at 27k
Amplitude has no effect on the tooltips of the uesp.net build editor, but I removed it for your sake.
Tooltips are for beginners. The actual hit counts. But I will take some pictures when I go on the pts later.
I will come back to you.
Uhh lol?
I thought we were comparing the skill by itself because the point was frags is waay easier to proc than bow, and it deals the same damage? In practice of course damage numbers will be different because it depends on the target you're hitting (eg his resistances, his buffs, etc.), and the rotation of the player (i.e. was soul harvest cast before, etc)
Frags are easier to proc for sure. But the tooltips you are having there, can not be true.
And now where grim focus is getting all these survival extras, I think it turns into a heavy overloaded ability, that is already strong enough as it is.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=139910
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=139911
Check it out then.2 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭thankyourat wrote: »A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game
and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak
We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE
We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class
NB is completely damage carried... honestly their damage needed to be toned down because it’s absurd in both PvP and pve. Especially since both mag and StamNB have dominated the end game pve scene for over a year. Plus grim focus was literally the hardest hitting single target ability in the game. The loss of minor bezer was well deserved. Time to adapt like other classes did when they received heavy nerfs.
Do you feel it should be nerfed to do the same damage as Crystal frags though? Because without the minor berserk Crystal frags and the spectral bow will be hitting for the same damage, but Crystal frags requires much less micromanaging and doesn't need 2GCD to use. I feel as though nightblade burst damage is comparable to warden and sorc already on live without the nerfs. If you look at it Crystal frag is already the second strongest ability in the game only merciless and ice comet have higher damage.
Now you add in curse which has similar damage to soul harvest and actually does more damage than soul tether which is basically unavoidable and combine that with a execute that auto procs and a matriarch that passively hits like a truck and all of this can be combined to hit in 1GCD you realize pretty fast that nightblade burst damage isn't really that high in comparison.
Warden burst damage is also comparable while being all AOE damage which is easy to avoid 1v1 but can get very difficult to avoid Xv1 or in GvG situations. Wardens also have just as many buffs and debuffs as nightblades while being just as tanky as a DK or Templar while having twice the burst damage so they are completely outclassing both of those specs. Nightblade damage has now been nerfed so where on live it's equal to warden and less than sorc it is now less than both specs while not being granted the defensive abilities of those classes.
Not true. Grim Focus still hits for significantly more.
In my tests, it was well 5k more damage without crits. With the exact same gear and stats.
I think you forgot to add 20% damage bonus to frag procs.
I've done a lot of comparisons using uesp and the damage is very very similar.
EDIT: See this post i made on the pts last week (this is without minor berserk):So the hardest hitting ability in the game is nothing now ? OK.....
20K C frags are a regular occurrence on magsorcs right now, they proc every 2-3 seconds, can be thrown in every single combo a sorc throws at you.
Most assassin's scourges are 20-22K, and you might be able to build one in 10 seconds at the very minimum. I'll take a 2K decrease if they proc like a C frags, any day
20k frags on regular occurance lel. Well atleast now I know it's a troll thread.
So I put together a quick magblade build using the uesp.net build editor. Fully buffed, correct skill bars, the damage of spectral bow is 21,656.
I then switched it to a magsorc. With the same sets, all passives obtained, and exactly the same CP and buffs tabs, correct skill bars, frags has a tooltip of 20,762
Frags. 17302*1.2:
Merciless.
I forgot nothing. You forgot to remove the Amplitude passive of Sorcerers, which likely caused you to deal 9% extra damage or so. Since this passive is too unreliable in pvp, I remove it for all my static damage tests. So I can see the true base damage.
The damage difference between fragments and grim focus is still considerable, depending on your build. I can only assume, that your damage values were lower, thus the % difference also gets lower. I tested scenarios with stats that matter the most to me, with Imperial Physique. My Grim focus dealt 4-5 more damage there.
Show me your sheets? I'll be glad to accept that I'm wrong if i am proven wrong.
I recreated my tests with as max damage as possible using war maiden and innate axiom. I also put unreasonably high CPs.
Bow proc is at 28k.
Frags proc is at 27k
Amplitude has no effect on the tooltips of the uesp.net build editor, but I removed it for your sake.
Tooltips are for beginners. The actual hit counts. But I will take some pictures when I go on the pts later.
I will come back to you.
Uhh lol?
I thought we were comparing the skill by itself because the point was frags is waay easier to proc than bow, and it deals the same damage? In practice of course damage numbers will be different because it depends on the target you're hitting (eg his resistances, his buffs, etc.), and the rotation of the player (i.e. was soul harvest cast before, etc)
Frags are easier to proc for sure. But the tooltips you are having there, can not be true.
And now where grim focus is getting all these survival extras, I think it turns into a heavy overloaded ability, that is already strong enough as it is.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=139910
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=139911
Check it out then.
Okay, I believe this discussion is over for me. You are using some build editor to get your numbers ? No wonder then.
Then I must no longer be worried that I am correct with my recent numbers.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.0 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭thankyourat wrote: »A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game
and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak
We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE
We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class
NB is completely damage carried... honestly their damage needed to be toned down because it’s absurd in both PvP and pve. Especially since both mag and StamNB have dominated the end game pve scene for over a year. Plus grim focus was literally the hardest hitting single target ability in the game. The loss of minor bezer was well deserved. Time to adapt like other classes did when they received heavy nerfs.
Do you feel it should be nerfed to do the same damage as Crystal frags though? Because without the minor berserk Crystal frags and the spectral bow will be hitting for the same damage, but Crystal frags requires much less micromanaging and doesn't need 2GCD to use. I feel as though nightblade burst damage is comparable to warden and sorc already on live without the nerfs. If you look at it Crystal frag is already the second strongest ability in the game only merciless and ice comet have higher damage.
Now you add in curse which has similar damage to soul harvest and actually does more damage than soul tether which is basically unavoidable and combine that with a execute that auto procs and a matriarch that passively hits like a truck and all of this can be combined to hit in 1GCD you realize pretty fast that nightblade burst damage isn't really that high in comparison.
Warden burst damage is also comparable while being all AOE damage which is easy to avoid 1v1 but can get very difficult to avoid Xv1 or in GvG situations. Wardens also have just as many buffs and debuffs as nightblades while being just as tanky as a DK or Templar while having twice the burst damage so they are completely outclassing both of those specs. Nightblade damage has now been nerfed so where on live it's equal to warden and less than sorc it is now less than both specs while not being granted the defensive abilities of those classes.
Not true. Grim Focus still hits for significantly more.
In my tests, it was well 5k more damage without crits. With the exact same gear and stats.
I think you forgot to add 20% damage bonus to frag procs.
I've done a lot of comparisons using uesp and the damage is very very similar.
EDIT: See this post i made on the pts last week (this is without minor berserk):So the hardest hitting ability in the game is nothing now ? OK.....
20K C frags are a regular occurrence on magsorcs right now, they proc every 2-3 seconds, can be thrown in every single combo a sorc throws at you.
Most assassin's scourges are 20-22K, and you might be able to build one in 10 seconds at the very minimum. I'll take a 2K decrease if they proc like a C frags, any day
20k frags on regular occurance lel. Well atleast now I know it's a troll thread.
So I put together a quick magblade build using the uesp.net build editor. Fully buffed, correct skill bars, the damage of spectral bow is 21,656.
I then switched it to a magsorc. With the same sets, all passives obtained, and exactly the same CP and buffs tabs, correct skill bars, frags has a tooltip of 20,762
Frags. 17302*1.2:
Merciless.
I forgot nothing. You forgot to remove the Amplitude passive of Sorcerers, which likely caused you to deal 9% extra damage or so. Since this passive is too unreliable in pvp, I remove it for all my static damage tests. So I can see the true base damage.
The damage difference between fragments and grim focus is still considerable, depending on your build. I can only assume, that your damage values were lower, thus the % difference also gets lower. I tested scenarios with stats that matter the most to me, with Imperial Physique. My Grim focus dealt 4-5 more damage there.
Show me your sheets? I'll be glad to accept that I'm wrong if i am proven wrong.
I recreated my tests with as max damage as possible using war maiden and innate axiom. I also put unreasonably high CPs.
Bow proc is at 28k.
Frags proc is at 27k
Amplitude has no effect on the tooltips of the uesp.net build editor, but I removed it for your sake.
Tooltips are for beginners. The actual hit counts. But I will take some pictures when I go on the pts later.
I will come back to you.
Uhh lol?
I thought we were comparing the skill by itself because the point was frags is waay easier to proc than bow, and it deals the same damage? In practice of course damage numbers will be different because it depends on the target you're hitting (eg his resistances, his buffs, etc.), and the rotation of the player (i.e. was soul harvest cast before, etc)
Frags are easier to proc for sure. But the tooltips you are having there, can not be true.
And now where grim focus is getting all these survival extras, I think it turns into a heavy overloaded ability, that is already strong enough as it is.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=139910
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=139911
Check it out then.
Okay, I believe this discussion is over for me. You are using some build editor to get your numbers ? No wonder then.
Then I must no longer be worried that I am correct with my recent numbers.
ugh I hate discussion with these kinds of people. All talk, no proof, and then backs out when presented with proof. Ah well. I'm done as well.8 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭thankyourat wrote: »A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game
and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak
We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE
We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class
NB is completely damage carried... honestly their damage needed to be toned down because it’s absurd in both PvP and pve. Especially since both mag and StamNB have dominated the end game pve scene for over a year. Plus grim focus was literally the hardest hitting single target ability in the game. The loss of minor bezer was well deserved. Time to adapt like other classes did when they received heavy nerfs.
Do you feel it should be nerfed to do the same damage as Crystal frags though? Because without the minor berserk Crystal frags and the spectral bow will be hitting for the same damage, but Crystal frags requires much less micromanaging and doesn't need 2GCD to use. I feel as though nightblade burst damage is comparable to warden and sorc already on live without the nerfs. If you look at it Crystal frag is already the second strongest ability in the game only merciless and ice comet have higher damage.
Now you add in curse which has similar damage to soul harvest and actually does more damage than soul tether which is basically unavoidable and combine that with a execute that auto procs and a matriarch that passively hits like a truck and all of this can be combined to hit in 1GCD you realize pretty fast that nightblade burst damage isn't really that high in comparison.
Warden burst damage is also comparable while being all AOE damage which is easy to avoid 1v1 but can get very difficult to avoid Xv1 or in GvG situations. Wardens also have just as many buffs and debuffs as nightblades while being just as tanky as a DK or Templar while having twice the burst damage so they are completely outclassing both of those specs. Nightblade damage has now been nerfed so where on live it's equal to warden and less than sorc it is now less than both specs while not being granted the defensive abilities of those classes.
Not true. Grim Focus still hits for significantly more.
In my tests, it was well 5k more damage without crits. With the exact same gear and stats.
I think you forgot to add 20% damage bonus to frag procs.
I've done a lot of comparisons using uesp and the damage is very very similar.
EDIT: See this post i made on the pts last week (this is without minor berserk):So the hardest hitting ability in the game is nothing now ? OK.....
20K C frags are a regular occurrence on magsorcs right now, they proc every 2-3 seconds, can be thrown in every single combo a sorc throws at you.
Most assassin's scourges are 20-22K, and you might be able to build one in 10 seconds at the very minimum. I'll take a 2K decrease if they proc like a C frags, any day
20k frags on regular occurance lel. Well atleast now I know it's a troll thread.
So I put together a quick magblade build using the uesp.net build editor. Fully buffed, correct skill bars, the damage of spectral bow is 21,656.
I then switched it to a magsorc. With the same sets, all passives obtained, and exactly the same CP and buffs tabs, correct skill bars, frags has a tooltip of 20,762
Frags. 17302*1.2:
Merciless.
I forgot nothing. You forgot to remove the Amplitude passive of Sorcerers, which likely caused you to deal 9% extra damage or so. Since this passive is too unreliable in pvp, I remove it for all my static damage tests. So I can see the true base damage.
The damage difference between fragments and grim focus is still considerable, depending on your build. I can only assume, that your damage values were lower, thus the % difference also gets lower. I tested scenarios with stats that matter the most to me, with Imperial Physique. My Grim focus dealt 4-5 more damage there.
Show me your sheets? I'll be glad to accept that I'm wrong if i am proven wrong.
I recreated my tests with as max damage as possible using war maiden and innate axiom. I also put unreasonably high CPs.
Bow proc is at 28k.
Frags proc is at 27k
Amplitude has no effect on the tooltips of the uesp.net build editor, but I removed it for your sake.
Tooltips are for beginners. The actual hit counts. But I will take some pictures when I go on the pts later.
I will come back to you.
Uhh lol?
I thought we were comparing the skill by itself because the point was frags is waay easier to proc than bow, and it deals the same damage? In practice of course damage numbers will be different because it depends on the target you're hitting (eg his resistances, his buffs, etc.), and the rotation of the player (i.e. was soul harvest cast before, etc)
Frags are easier to proc for sure. But the tooltips you are having there, can not be true.
And now where grim focus is getting all these survival extras, I think it turns into a heavy overloaded ability, that is already strong enough as it is.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=139910
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=139911
Check it out then.
Okay, I believe this discussion is over for me. You are using some build editor to get your numbers ? No wonder then.
Then I must no longer be worried that I am correct with my recent numbers.
ugh I hate discussion with these kinds of people. All talk, no proof, and then backs out when presented with proof. Ah well. I'm done as well.
Build editor does not give accurate info.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.0 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭thankyourat wrote: »A simple light attack + suprise attack weave will give Major Resistance and percentage resistance at the same time. SA is the hardest hitting spammable and Merciless' bow is the hardest hitting non-ulti skill in the game
and NBs will STILL complain about having no defense outside of Cloak
We want our DAMAGE abilities to do DAMAGE
We don’t need defenses on offensive skills, put them in defensive abilities. These changes are still bad and still don’t compensate for the flat 8% lost across the entire class
NB is completely damage carried... honestly their damage needed to be toned down because it’s absurd in both PvP and pve. Especially since both mag and StamNB have dominated the end game pve scene for over a year. Plus grim focus was literally the hardest hitting single target ability in the game. The loss of minor bezer was well deserved. Time to adapt like other classes did when they received heavy nerfs.
Do you feel it should be nerfed to do the same damage as Crystal frags though? Because without the minor berserk Crystal frags and the spectral bow will be hitting for the same damage, but Crystal frags requires much less micromanaging and doesn't need 2GCD to use. I feel as though nightblade burst damage is comparable to warden and sorc already on live without the nerfs. If you look at it Crystal frag is already the second strongest ability in the game only merciless and ice comet have higher damage.
Now you add in curse which has similar damage to soul harvest and actually does more damage than soul tether which is basically unavoidable and combine that with a execute that auto procs and a matriarch that passively hits like a truck and all of this can be combined to hit in 1GCD you realize pretty fast that nightblade burst damage isn't really that high in comparison.
Warden burst damage is also comparable while being all AOE damage which is easy to avoid 1v1 but can get very difficult to avoid Xv1 or in GvG situations. Wardens also have just as many buffs and debuffs as nightblades while being just as tanky as a DK or Templar while having twice the burst damage so they are completely outclassing both of those specs. Nightblade damage has now been nerfed so where on live it's equal to warden and less than sorc it is now less than both specs while not being granted the defensive abilities of those classes.
Not true. Grim Focus still hits for significantly more.
In my tests, it was well 5k more damage without crits. With the exact same gear and stats.
I think you forgot to add 20% damage bonus to frag procs.
I've done a lot of comparisons using uesp and the damage is very very similar.
EDIT: See this post i made on the pts last week (this is without minor berserk):So the hardest hitting ability in the game is nothing now ? OK.....
20K C frags are a regular occurrence on magsorcs right now, they proc every 2-3 seconds, can be thrown in every single combo a sorc throws at you.
Most assassin's scourges are 20-22K, and you might be able to build one in 10 seconds at the very minimum. I'll take a 2K decrease if they proc like a C frags, any day
20k frags on regular occurance lel. Well atleast now I know it's a troll thread.
So I put together a quick magblade build using the uesp.net build editor. Fully buffed, correct skill bars, the damage of spectral bow is 21,656.
I then switched it to a magsorc. With the same sets, all passives obtained, and exactly the same CP and buffs tabs, correct skill bars, frags has a tooltip of 20,762
Frags. 17302*1.2:
Merciless.
I forgot nothing. You forgot to remove the Amplitude passive of Sorcerers, which likely caused you to deal 9% extra damage or so. Since this passive is too unreliable in pvp, I remove it for all my static damage tests. So I can see the true base damage.
The damage difference between fragments and grim focus is still considerable, depending on your build. I can only assume, that your damage values were lower, thus the % difference also gets lower. I tested scenarios with stats that matter the most to me, with Imperial Physique. My Grim focus dealt 4-5 more damage there.
Show me your sheets? I'll be glad to accept that I'm wrong if i am proven wrong.
I recreated my tests with as max damage as possible using war maiden and innate axiom. I also put unreasonably high CPs.
Bow proc is at 28k.
Frags proc is at 27k
Amplitude has no effect on the tooltips of the uesp.net build editor, but I removed it for your sake.
Tooltips are for beginners. The actual hit counts. But I will take some pictures when I go on the pts later.
I will come back to you.
Uhh lol?
I thought we were comparing the skill by itself because the point was frags is waay easier to proc than bow, and it deals the same damage? In practice of course damage numbers will be different because it depends on the target you're hitting (eg his resistances, his buffs, etc.), and the rotation of the player (i.e. was soul harvest cast before, etc)
Frags are easier to proc for sure. But the tooltips you are having there, can not be true.
And now where grim focus is getting all these survival extras, I think it turns into a heavy overloaded ability, that is already strong enough as it is.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=139910
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=139911
Check it out then.
Okay, I believe this discussion is over for me. You are using some build editor to get your numbers ? No wonder then.
Then I must no longer be worried that I am correct with my recent numbers.
ugh I hate discussion with these kinds of people. All talk, no proof, and then backs out when presented with proof. Ah well. I'm done as well.
Build editor does not give accurate info.
Yep it's not 100% accurate. But I've been using this particular one (and a lot of other people as well) for 3 years now, and my stats in-game is always very very close to this editor's stats. It's accurate enough to show that merciless resolve does not deal 4-5k more damage than frags when under the same circumstances.7 -
KatySpirit✭✭✭KatySpirit wrote: »Nightblade does not need more mitigation, nightblade needs a reliable heal.
*Mainly for tanking, since they plan to basically destroy the one they currently have.
PVE magblades have great self healing and survivability because they hit hard enough with the abilities that heal them scaled on damage done. They don't need light attacks to give them MORE defense. PVE tanks can't heal for nearly as much with these skills and so all these damage based healing moves will not be enough alone and will take up all their bar space. From what I hear PVPers find healing based on damage to be unreliable. Nightblade has a lot of defense, but defense eventually falls flat if you can't heal yourself.
Magicka Nightblade actually doesn't have a lot of reliable defenses on live. (Shadowy Disguise on live is an actively bad skill against competent players, Shadow Image is bugged, and neither skill actually substantively helps you win a fight where your opponent both out damage and out tank you which is common on live.)
Buffing magblade healing would overload PVE survivability even more which is something ZOS just nerfed a couple of patches ago. I wouldn't call PVE nightblade tank dead with the current nerfs for the tanking heal. Nightblade tank would be meta with the PTS heal if it gave a better unique dps increase than Engulfing Flames.
I mean magic nightblade in PVE has great survivability, not PVP PVP has different problems of which I only vaguely know from what the PVPers have said, one of which is the claim that their heals do nothing because they can't get enough damage. My concern is about PVE tanking.
I don't think magic Nightblade needs more heals for PVE at all, it stays alive very well in PVE, but tankblade needs to not lose it's only good self heal (since it scales on max health, not magic) to a weak heal over time. More mitigation won't help PVE tanks. NB already has access to Major and Minor Ward/Resolve, as well as Minor Protection and a short span of Major Protection. This is enough for any PVE tanks to have good defense. I really don't want the devs thinking they can get off taking away the "burst" from Dark Cloak because they are giving mitigation on a skill that isn't a tanking skill and has a convoluted heal based on spell power instead of max health. Tankblades need a heal that will work.Tanks: Warden, Nightblade, Dragonknight
Healers: Nightblade, Templar, Warden, Sorcerer, Dragonknight, Necromancer
DPS: Magsorc, Magblade, Magplar, MagDK, Stamblade, StamNecro0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@HaruKamui
First off, to give my statement more meaning, let me tell you: [snipped]
And now I shall present actual in game screenshots to you. The difference between crystal fragments and grim focus is gigantic.
Both characters are identical. Same CP setup, same gear (I just switch the same gear between both characters) and all passives learned. 5 Necropotence, 5 Alfiq and 2 Slimecraw. Which is the Cyrodiil setup I will be using. On Sorcerer of course, I must use mighty chudan in reality, because I do not have space for an external armor buff. While nightblade gets all armor buffs for free as a passive, so the Nightblade can use something else later.
22571 hit with a procced crystal fragment.
Nightblade has a few k more magicka, thanks to Magicka flood. Which is alot of extra damage, which I sadly can not exlude in my testing. The burdens of a passively overloaded class I fear.
27584 merciless resolve hit.
So as you can, the damage of both abilities is not even compareable. With the exact same setup, merciless resolve deals alot more damage. The difference being, that Merciless Resolve is going to grant overloaded passives. Which surely fits into the entire design of the divine class, so no surprise there.
[edited to remove unnecessary and baiting commentary]
Edited by ZOS_RikardD on April 28, 2019 5:22PMAuri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.3 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭KatySpirit wrote: »KatySpirit wrote: »Nightblade does not need more mitigation, nightblade needs a reliable heal.
*Mainly for tanking, since they plan to basically destroy the one they currently have.
PVE magblades have great self healing and survivability because they hit hard enough with the abilities that heal them scaled on damage done. They don't need light attacks to give them MORE defense. PVE tanks can't heal for nearly as much with these skills and so all these damage based healing moves will not be enough alone and will take up all their bar space. From what I hear PVPers find healing based on damage to be unreliable. Nightblade has a lot of defense, but defense eventually falls flat if you can't heal yourself.
Magicka Nightblade actually doesn't have a lot of reliable defenses on live. (Shadowy Disguise on live is an actively bad skill against competent players, Shadow Image is bugged, and neither skill actually substantively helps you win a fight where your opponent both out damage and out tank you which is common on live.)
Buffing magblade healing would overload PVE survivability even more which is something ZOS just nerfed a couple of patches ago. I wouldn't call PVE nightblade tank dead with the current nerfs for the tanking heal. Nightblade tank would be meta with the PTS heal if it gave a better unique dps increase than Engulfing Flames.
I mean magic nightblade in PVE has great survivability, not PVP PVP has different problems of which I only vaguely know from what the PVPers have said, one of which is the claim that their heals do nothing because they can't get enough damage. My concern is about PVE tanking.
I don't think magic Nightblade needs more heals for PVE at all, it stays alive very well in PVE, but tankblade needs to not lose it's only good self heal (since it scales on max health, not magic) to a weak heal over time. More mitigation won't help PVE tanks. NB already has access to Major and Minor Ward/Resolve, as well as Minor Protection and a short span of Major Protection. This is enough for any PVE tanks to have good defense. I really don't want the devs thinking they can get off taking away the "burst" from Dark Cloak because they are giving mitigation on a skill that isn't a tanking skill and has a convoluted heal based on spell power instead of max health. Tankblades need a heal that will work.
I’ve pointed this out countless times now. If only swallow soul applied a static hot before damage is calculated all problems would be solved. PvPers wouldn’t suffer from terrible healing due to target mitigation anymore and PvE wouldn’t be able to pull insane self healing due to offensive raid buffs.
I can’t understand how this obvious solution has not been implemented yet1 -
LordTareq✭✭✭✭✭@HaruKamui
First off, to give my statement more meaning, let me tell you: [edited]
And now I shall present actual in game screenshots to you. The difference between crystal fragments and grim focus is gigantic.
Both characters are identical. Same CP setup, same gear (I just switch the same gear between both characters) and all passives learned. 5 Necropotence, 5 Alfiq and 2 Slimecraw. Which is the Cyrodiil setup I will be using. On Sorcerer of course, I must use mighty chudan in reality, because I do not have space for an external armor buff. While nightblade gets all armor buffs for free as a passive, so the Nightblade can use something else later.
22571 hit with a procced crystal fragment.
Nightblade has a few k more magicka, thanks to Magicka flood. Which is alot of extra damage, which I sadly can not exlude in my testing. The burdens of a passively overloaded class I fear.
27584 merciless resolve hit.
So as you can, the damage of both abilities is not even compareable. With the exact same setup, merciless resolve deals alot more damage. The difference being, that Merciless Resolve is going to grant overloaded passives. Which surely fits into the entire design of the divine class, so no surprise there.
[edited]
For proper testing you should exclude passives that affect damage, as those are additional class benefits and not something base abilities should be judged on. The 10% extra magicka your nightblade has over your sorcerer is ridiculous when you try to compare abilities, what were you thinking?Edited by ZOS_RikardD on April 28, 2019 5:22PM3 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@HaruKamui
First off, to give my statement more meaning, let me tell you: Fool
And now I shall present actual in game screenshots to you. The difference between crystal fragments and grim focus is gigantic.
Both characters are identical. Same CP setup, same gear (I just switch the same gear between both characters) and all passives learned. 5 Necropotence, 5 Alfiq and 2 Slimecraw. Which is the Cyrodiil setup I will be using. On Sorcerer of course, I must use mighty chudan in reality, because I do not have space for an external armor buff. While nightblade gets all armor buffs for free as a passive, so the Nightblade can use something else later.
22571 hit with a procced crystal fragment.
Nightblade has a few k more magicka, thanks to Magicka flood. Which is alot of extra damage, which I sadly can not exlude in my testing. The burdens of a passively overloaded class I fear.
27584 merciless resolve hit.
So as you can, the damage of both abilities is not even compareable. With the exact same setup, merciless resolve deals alot more damage. The difference being, that Merciless Resolve is going to grant overloaded passives. Which surely fits into the entire design of the divine class, so no surprise there.
For the future, I encourage you to put some effort into your arguments and actually go out and compare numbers with actual tests. Those build editors are a disgrace and are not even to be considered.
For proper testing you should exclude passives that affect damage, as those are additional class benefits and not something base abilities should be judged on. The 10% extra magicka your nightblade has over your sorcerer is ridiculous when you try to compare abilities, what were you thinking?
Absolutely not. These are things, that definately are present on each and every character. Every sorcerer gets 2% spell damage for slotted class ability and every Nightblade gets 8% magicka for just slotting their main spammable etc.
So yes, these things will definately get included. You just can't accept the fact, that Nightblade is far from dead and that this class is absolutely ridiculous. Even without this magicka, Grim Focus would be alot stronger.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.2