idk wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

Vampire already have a passive to look motal it's called stage 1,2, and 3.

It does not make them look mortal. Even in stage 1 it is easy to tell a character is a vampire.

starkerealm wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

Vampire already have a passive to look motal it's called stage 1,2, and 3.

People 'round where you live must look pretty damn messed up if stage 2 or 3 looks normal too you.

Did you guys miss the part I wrote addressing how messed up vamps look already?

I'll quote myself from the OP "You are also supposed to be noticeable unnatural at stage 4. Not you look ill (1) or really ill (2) or my god how are you standing ill (3) But Arkay save us it's a vampire (4). "

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Honestly, I'm disappointed that they are trying to integrate the "moral" aspects of the new class into the flavor of the game without anything like that being connected to existing classes...

I have mixed feelings about it myself if this is going to be a thing.

I used to play Everquest. Being a Necromancer in that game was interesting. You were a bit more limited in what cities you could visit and which quests you could do. However you were also 'liberated' in what actions you could take. Killing some druids for example didn't bother you since you were already hated by them to begin with.

The game was well balanced around its moral system as well. Paladins for example could not freely enter areas where Necromancers frequented. So you had players playing 'evil' characters killing 'good' NPCs and vice versa. Then you had more middle ground 'neutral' players who had to either dance a fine line or make a choice one way or another.

Which brings us back to ESO. That system doesn't exist here.

All characters are 'good'. We make choices in quests that cause good or bad things to happen, but at the end of the day we're trying to keep all cities safe. We may oppose each other in Cyrodil. But no character is going to ally with a deadra to wipeout say Daggerfall or Mournholde.

So from a lore standpoint. What is the purpose of the Necromancer? Is it going to have its own quests, its own stuff, its own villages and towns? Well the answer to that is obviously no.

Its the 6th class. Which means its functionally just another flavor of class doing the same stuff Dragonknights, Nightblades, Sorcerers, Templars, and Wardens do. They live in the same cities, do the same quests, ect.

So I have to ask, what's the purpose of scaring townfolk into giving you bounties for using class abilities? It sounds like a coder with a nasally voice said, "you see, necromancers are hated, so they need bounties for acting like necromancers." When you need a level headed producer or game designer to reign them in and say "Look, these classes need to be equal to one another, any detriment is going to need a benefit to offset"

What kind of benefit would offset bounties? Seriously think about that?

Give them more power? Dungeons aren't in cities, more power makes them OP to other classes.

Give them extra money generation? Legerdemain and Black Hand does this already. Besides its easy to just not fire off abilities in town. Making them OP again.

Give them necro quests? Again other classes don't get this.

There's no benefit you can give to this detriment to keep them balanced. The detriment makes them less desirable to play over other classes since they have to be equal in every other way.

This should not be done. ESO is not EQ. Its not been designed with a morality/alignment/faction system in mind. And for this reason, Werewolves and Vampires also likewise should never see this detriment either.

MAOofDC wrote: »

With the coming expansion several of the necromancers skills will give them a bounty if they are seen using it near "witnesses". It would be silly to not go back and revisit the concept of legality of other spells. I think few people would argue that someone in werewolf form shouldn't be illegal, from a standpoint of the lore and how NPCS reacted to them in other TES games. It's the same way NPCs reacted to stage 4 vampirism in all the other games. That being said damn near every vampire I've talked to is like yeah WW form should be illegal but not vampire. Really selfish much? Vampires need to have some flaw. The weakness to fire damage can be mitigated to at or near 0 so no drawbacks there. Remember at stage 4 you're supposed to be damn close to one of the feral vamps killing anything for blood. You are also supposed to be noticeable unnatural at stage 4. Not you look ill (1) or really ill (2) or my god how are you standing ill (3) But Arkay save us it's a vampire (4). You feed on one person and you're good to enter the town with getting a bounty. I think it's a fair price to pay for the power being a vampire gives you.

Why? The bounty system is just a gimmick there is no meaning to it and that would only be annoying to people who play as vamps. I think the necromancer getting bounty for abilities will be changed pretty quick as players testing things in town or just flashing abilities will get them killed by guards and they will complain.

With all my gear and skin options, the only way to even tell that my Chaeacter is a Vampire is

1. The active buff/debuff Icon while targeting me
2. I tell you im a Vampire

Would you rather players get a bounty and mist form all over or maul NPC's in towns? Because the bounty would not prevent people from going where they feel like and no one is going to stand there and get attacked. There would be bounties all the time and every NPC would be constantly aggroed and minus Guards and Immortals would be dead.

max_only wrote: »

As a werewolf player, turning into a ww/being in ww form should be a crime.

Vampire skills should be a crime. And the feeding already is, it counts on assault if done on an npc in town. All the other skills should be crimes too.

Just *existing* as vampire should NOT be a crime because of skins, costumes, full plate armor, etc. It doesn’t make sense in this universe.

I accidentally misread the last part and was about to put "Well look at D, he’s already a vampire human hybrid- and he hunts vampires”

But then I’m sitting here laughing because on Skyrim your eyes were literally smoldering embers and the townsfolk has no clue what it meant.

Transformed werewolves? yes
Stage 4 vampire? No
Vampire skills? Yes

SkerKro wrote: »

Only, after those dueling, get instantly teleported and placed in the stockade for 120mins while inside any town.

Have yet to have a rando stage 4 vamp or werewolf suddenly drop flags and cause hell and chaos on a crafting table... duelists on the other hand. Every 3 to 5 minutes. I am all for this justice system, but justice to those who actually deserve to have justice served on them.

10/10 agreed, I never seen a werewolf in town... But annoying PVPers? Yes

Maybe logic has no place in a video game (although I think it should) but this makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Disclaimer: I am not a lore expert, I don't role play, and some of the quests I have not done in a very long time.

Let's break this down a couple of different ways.

1) Action vs. Existence

Certain necromancer skills will not be tolerated within towns. OK. That tracks with how the rest of the justice system works. Kill someone, people mind. Steal something, people mind. Raise a corpse from the dead... I guess people mind.

However people are not going to receive a bounty just for being a necromancer and sauntering into town. Therefore, you shouldn't receive a bounty for being anything else and sauntering into town. This should apply to both werewolf and vampire. In fact, you can have a gallon of stolen goods in your inventory and STILL no one will mind, if you don't have a bounty. You have to DO SOMETHING to generate the heat.

2) Role play / Quests / Story

Up until now, we've had the freedom in game to decide whether our Templars/Nightblades/Werewolves/Vampires/etc/etc are good or evil. There are evil versions of all of our classes. (Hey, I've seen the novas in VDSA. BAD Templar!)

Plus, due to the three factions, evil is relative.

There are some quests that I've run across where you can choose to tolerate or help individuals turned into vampires against their will. In fact, even though the vestige can be cured anytime, some of these quest lines make it seem like a cure is out of reach for many. I don't recall quests about werewolves but my main is a vampire so that could be why.

Regardless, generally in our ESO world the rules have been such that we can overcome our background or afflictions and still use our powers for good. I'm not sure it's a good idea, now, to change the way this works. Therefore, no one (in my opinion) should be punished for just "being" a vampire or werewolf, based on precedents set in the story and for role playing purposes.

Conclusion:

Stage 4 Vampires should not generate heat. They have not done anything wrong. They sometimes can be victims, choosing to feed only on animals or evil creatures. If they feed on someone, of course this should generate heat.

To be fair and align with ESO's specific world, I don't think changing into a werewolf should generate heat, either. I think feeding on a dead body to stay in werewolf form should generate heat. HOWEVER, it does seem to be less defined and agreed upon (see this topic), even in the role playing community, whether one can control themselves in werewolf form. Since transforming is an action, it is not completely unreasonable to attach heat to this action, and if this were to happen in ESO it still does not align with being equivalent to Stage 4 Vampirism, which isn't an action.

That said, because we can fight for just causes in werewolf form, can turn quests in and "be good" in werewolf form, and don't immediately turn on our enemies, in ESO specifically it seems like only feeding and killing as a werewolf should generate heat, to be consistent with all other game logic that only applies heat to actions that directly, immediately negatively impact others. Otherwise, I'd be picked up with all of my stolen goods no matter what my bounty was.

Banana wrote: »

Im wearing the frosty skin so Im safe.

Amen to this!

Also, there is a difference between the dead and the undead.

I don't know what it is, but it's there.

Maybe it's that Vamps refuse to die so people respect that stubbornness, but Necros raise dead people who were quite content to stay dead, which is rather rude.

8)

Eh...

KRBMMO wrote: »

Why stop there:

All Pet sorcs should also have the criminal tag. You are wandering around the town with a demon following you as a pet, for jimminy's sake.

Any Daedric spell line should also be criminal. You are channeling EVIL.

NB Soul Siphon Skill line as well.

Daedric Cosmetic pets, too. Your cute little love slave is a devil's spawn.

I don't channel evil, I am evil.

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Honestly, I'm disappointed that they are trying to integrate the "moral" aspects of the new class into the flavor of the game without anything like that being connected to existing classes...

That being said, I'm fine if they add a bounty to stage 4 vamp after next patch....since I'll be able to drop mistform for Race Against Time then, anyway!

^ This. ^

I love that they are considering adding criminal acts to it, but feel it should apply to all classes - or at least summons from those. Most of the criminal necro skills seem to be summoning of some kind from what I've seen on the PTS so far. I'm good with that - armies of stinking undead in towns - definitely a no-no. By the same token, this should also apply to summoning demons (Daedra) and wild beasties (bears) - most citizens would not want such things running freely around any more than they would want reanimated corpses. Or vampires and werewolves!

This would add an immersive way to remove pets from cities and tie everything in together nicely, IMO. What applies to one really should apply to all.

I've always enjoyed playing with the downsides as well as the upsides when playing as vampire or werewolf.