DragonKnight without Wings...

Jhalin · April 2019

The idea for the ability itself isn’t bad, it’s the cost of losing such a huge feature of the class that’s bad

Yes, reflecting the projectile damage and all secondary effects was too strong. But instead of completely removing the tool, why not at least preserve the spirit of it on one of the morphs

Protective Scales: For 6 seconds, gain 50% damage reduction on all projectiles. For the duration, when you take damage from a projectile, return a blast of searing flame for x damage to the attacker.

Reflective Scales: For 3 seconds, absorb up to 3/4/5/6 projectiles that hit you and reflect a blast for x of the same damage type to the attacker
New affect: No longer gives damage reduction on projectiles, instead absorbs projectiles and returns their associated damage type to the attacker for a shorter duration.

(Lower but adapted reflected damage, more control of the damage based on the DK’s stats and less on the enemy’s. Addresses the issue of incredibly high offensive potential in a defensive skill, while still retaining the damage reflection aspect that can apply secondary effects such as Burning, Concussed, Defile, Chilled, etc.)

Blazing Scales: For 6 seconds, gain 50% damage reduction on all projectiles. For the duration, when you take damage from a projectile, return a blast of searing flame for x damage to the attacker, and deal an additional x% damage based on distance traveled.
New effect: Your flames deal more damage to enemies that are farther away.

(Much higher damage done in exchange for accepting only partial damage mitigation. A tool for doing damage rather than for pure defense, also a method of forcing enemies into closer combat due to the nature of the damage ramping)

MaxwellC · April 2019

@Spizzie
Different form of combat refers to not spamming projectiles when there's a counter up; You don't spam projectiles when the ultimate shield wall is up do you?
Nightblades can use Lotus fan, Fear as a CC which can allow you some openings in-between wings up-time if used to burn stamina through CC breaks/Dodge rolls, concealed weapon,shadow image to weaken damage taken, etc (refering to destro skills)
Doing another form of combat isn't difficult it's the same thing I do when I fight a warden who uses shimmering shields to gain more ultimate from my attacks or another DK who uses wings; I don't spam injection on them I go in for the CC throw down my injection after wings fade and keep the CCs going till they can no longer break free fast and lay them to rest.

Counters to a specific style of combat aren't OP and should be welcomed just like how cloak negates all projectiles currently shot or how Templars can purge all debuffs (Mag mostly) when afflicted with them.

wheem_ESO · April 2019

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Spizzie
Different form of combat refers to not spamming projectiles when there's a counter up; You don't spam projectiles when the ultimate shield wall is up do you?
Nightblades can use Lotus fan, Fear as a CC which can allow you some openings in-between wings up-time if used to burn stamina through CC breaks/Dodge rolls, concealed weapon,shadow image to weaken damage taken, etc (refering to destro skills)
Doing another form of combat isn't difficult it's the same thing I do when I fight a warden who uses shimmering shields to gain more ultimate from my attacks or another DK who uses wings; I don't spam injection on them I go in for the CC throw down my injection after wings fade and keep the CCs going till they can no longer break free fast and lay them to rest.

Counters to a specific style of combat aren't OP and should be welcomed just like how cloak negates all projectiles currently shot or how Templars can purge all debuffs (Mag mostly) when afflicted with them.

Apples to oranges comparisons abound...

1) It's possible to use projectiles against an opponent as soon as their Shield Wall's duration runs out...when Wings duration runs out it goes right back up again.

2) You're spoiled by being able to utterly ruin a Mag build's stamina pool with Petrify, and yes Nightblades can do the same thing - though to a somewhat lesser degree - with Fear. But what about builds that rely on reflectable abilities for their CC?

3) Most DK builds aren't affected all that much by Shimmering Shield, certainly nowhere near as badly as many other builds are. If you want a better idea of what it's like to fight someone with Wings when you're on a build that's largely centered on projectiles, try skipping almost every offensive ability and CC that's in your toolkit, instead of just Poison Injection. And if they body block for someone else, even if on accident, you get the joy of eating your own damage and CC.

4) Cloak might negate projectiles, but it doesn't allow the Nightblade to sit on top of you going full-bore offense while keeping cloak active in order to prevent you from fighting back.

pieratsos · April 2019

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Spizzie
It actually does force them opponent to either engage with a different form of combat i.e melee ranged combat weapons or use abilities that aren't reflect-able.
If a opponent is trying to attack me from a distance and notices it isn't working then they have the following options. Either let the player drain their own resources spamming wings (not cheap on a Stam DK), Spam LAs to burn projectile cap, CC target with hard CCs and range them, or jump down and fight them with abilities that aren't reflect-able/using melee ranged abilities.

This ability is a counter to one particular style of combat which is ranged focus and yet not all projectiles are reflect-able but instead of adding another which came from MagNBs complaining i.e Cripple grasp, the option is to do away with the ability and give one that sucks?

There really is no median between this change nor should there be one. The skill should be return and they could just appease those who complain by adding another ability that cannot be reflect-able.
Wardens get to keep their shield that does way more than wings yet no one complains about that supposedly "Shutting down ranged combat"

And then ud complain again that wings is useless and DK is dead because u can't reflect said ability. I mean that's what happened when they made force shock un-reflectable. No?

So yeah there is definitely no median between this change or any other change for that matter. You will either complain or complain.

Veg · April 2019

For whatever balancing this is supposed to achieve, the cost is that Magic DK's are no longer "Magic DK's". This is like removing the invisibility of cloak from knight blades or the teleport from sorcs. Even if you manage to even things out in other areas, it still kills that unique style of game play.

That being said, If those fire balls that can shoot out every 1/2 second can compete with the regular reflected projectile damage then it's not the end of the world for people that play the class because they like the unique style of pvp.

Jhalin wrote: »

The idea for the ability itself isn’t bad, it’s the cost of losing such a huge feature of the class that’s bad

Yes, reflecting the projectile damage and all secondary effects was too strong. But instead of completely removing the tool, why not at least preserve the spirit of it on one of the morphs

All secondary effects have always gone through reflect.

Spizzie · April 2019

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Spizzie
Different form of combat refers to not spamming projectiles when there's a counter up; You don't spam projectiles when the ultimate shield wall is up do you?
Nightblades can use Lotus fan, Fear as a CC which can allow you some openings in-between wings up-time if used to burn stamina through CC breaks/Dodge rolls, concealed weapon,shadow image to weaken damage taken, etc (refering to destro skills)
Doing another form of combat isn't difficult it's the same thing I do when I fight a warden who uses shimmering shields to gain more ultimate from my attacks or another DK who uses wings; I don't spam injection on them I go in for the CC throw down my injection after wings fade and keep the CCs going till they can no longer break free fast and lay them to rest.

Counters to a specific style of combat aren't OP and should be welcomed just like how cloak negates all projectiles currently shot or how Templars can purge all debuffs (Mag mostly) when afflicted with them.

As a StamDK, you can afford to wait for wings to drop so you can hit them with poison inject because poison inject isn't your spammable or your CC. Claws, Breath, every 2h and 1h+s ability goes right through wings. Not being able to use your bow for 6 seconds on your StamDK is grossly incomparable to a MagSorc or MagBlade not being able to hit them with their main form of CC, any light attacks on either bar, their big-DPS proc, and in the case of MagBlade, their spammable.

Your position sounds like it comes from that of somebody who views this game through the lens of primarily a DK. Your only example of how you practice counterplay with wings is as a StamDK with poison inject. Even the examples about which you hypothesized don't address how you'd actually get a DK below 75% health.

DK uses wings > MagBlade uses Cloak > MagBlade uses lotus fan to close the distance and surprise the DK > MagBlade uses fear >DK Breaks free and uses fossilize

Now the MagBlade is in melee range with a DK spamming whip, claws, and talons ie pretty much worst case scenario for anyone fighting a DK. And that's assuming the DK isn't quick enough to fossilize you between the gap closer and the fear.

Both MagBlades and MagSorcs will -never- burn the Stamina from a half-decent DK that's getting 990 Stamina for each fossilize and 4K or more stamina for each ultimate use. Again, thinking that burning through someone's stamina as the way to kill them sounds exactly like someone who views interactions solely from the perspective of a DK.

usmcjdking · April 2019

Savos_Saren wrote: »

The Empowering Chains gap closer needs to stretch out to be 28 meters (as an exception to most gap closers) because a DK only has one class ability that reaches 28 meters. Every other class has a gap closer AND abilities that hit at 28 meters.

Do that, and everything evens out.

You would have to do this with all gap closers. I'm not sure you would appreciate getting gap close spammed from halfway across Cyrodiil.

Jhalin · April 2019

Veg wrote: »

For whatever balancing this is supposed to achieve, the cost is that Magic DK's are no longer "Magic DK's". This is like removing the invisibility of cloak from knight blades or the teleport from sorcs. Even if you manage to even things out in other areas, it still kills that unique style of game play.

That being said, If those fire balls that can shoot out every 1/2 second can compete with the regular reflected projectile damage then it's not the end of the world for people that play the class because they like the unique style of pvp.

Jhalin wrote: »

The idea for the ability itself isn’t bad, it’s the cost of losing such a huge feature of the class that’s bad

Yes, reflecting the projectile damage and all secondary effects was too strong. But instead of completely removing the tool, why not at least preserve the spirit of it on one of the morphs

All secondary effects have always gone through reflect.

That’s observably incorrect

If someone casts Poison Injection on a DK with wings up, the DK will not have the Poison DoT applied to them, the attacker will be affected. If Flame Reach is cast on a DK with wings up, the DK will not be CC’d, the attacker will be

Presumably you interpreted secondary effects to mean things like Burning or Poisoned status effects, which is not what I was referring to. I’ve also never noticed those things going through Wings, but maybe they do. I couldn’t say one way or the other as I’m more concerned about the ability itself being reflected back than the application of a minor status effect.

Toc de Malsvi · April 2019

Two years ago wings were "useless" and not worth slotting, now Wings are "class defining". This is just the cycle.

Lots of projectiles and wings pop up like candy. Because of wings players move away from projectile builds. Few projectiles and wings disappear and are useless again.

Snare immunity increased the use of wings. Snipe glitches increased the use of wings again. Wings go into a peak use of the cycle.

Wings getting changed in the middle of the high wing use cycle and players lose their minds.

MaxwellC · April 2019

@pieratsos
Actually no I didn't even notice the change when they made that ability un-reflect-able my issue is people who complain about wings have only done so recently in an effort to further move the goal-post after complaining about other things like fossilize being OP and before that our passives.
Continually taking something from a class instead of changing one skill to appease a small vocal minority is rather infuriating to someone who has only played the class from almost the beginning of this games launch.

Instead of making assertions please search my comments using this sites feature and look for any comment I have made when they made that destro skill un-reflect-able; I can save you the trouble here and tell you I didn't but you don't believe feel free but again to assume I said that makes an Ass out of U and Me.

MaxwellC · April 2019

Spizzie wrote: »

As a StamDK, you can afford to wait for wings to drop so you can hit them with poison inject because poison inject isn't your spammable or your CC. Claws, Breath, every 2h and 1h+s ability goes right through wings. Not being able to use your bow for 6 seconds on your StamDK is grossly incomparable to a MagSorc or MagBlade not being able to hit them with their main form of CC, any light attacks on either bar, their big-DPS proc, and in the case of MagBlade, their spammable.

Your position sounds like it comes from that of somebody who views this game through the lens of primarily a DK. Your only example of how you practice counterplay with wings is as a StamDK with poison inject. Even the examples about which you hypothesized don't address how you'd actually get a DK below 75% health.

DK uses wings > MagBlade uses Cloak > MagBlade uses lotus fan to close the distance and surprise the DK > MagBlade uses fear >DK Breaks free and uses fossilize

Now the MagBlade is in melee range with a DK spamming whip, claws, and talons ie pretty much worst case scenario for anyone fighting a DK. And that's assuming the DK isn't quick enough to fossilize you between the gap closer and the fear.

Both MagBlades and MagSorcs will -never- burn the Stamina from a half-decent DK that's getting 990 Stamina for each fossilize and 4K or more stamina for each ultimate use. Again, thinking that burning through someone's stamina as the way to kill them sounds exactly like someone who views interactions solely from the perspective of a DK.

First sentence doesn't make sense what do you mean I can afford to wait for wings to drop? As a Stam DK the only CC you got that's realiable and a class hard CC (goes through block) is fossilize/morph so that assertion is incorrect and ignored.
You're arguing a statement after you setup a situation to argue against? No that's not how that works mate.

Mag Sorc has ways to counter wings again no Mag DK is simply spamming them let alone a Stam DK like this notion that you're eluding to i.e 100% up-time is false and can clearly be proven by going into Cyrodill right now and teaming up with any DK. You act as if there are no abilities that a Mag Sorc or a Mag NB can use that do decent damage and aren't affected by wings so that again is another setting up a situation/narrative to argue against to better suit your narrative i.e Strawmanning.

The second sentence starting from "Your position" doesn't make sense. This change affects wings so ofc this comes from a perspective of someone who primarily (only plays DK) plays the DK class. No you again misrepresented my statement I provided plenty of ways to counter wings such as waiting for the time to pass, spamming LAs/dodge them, hard CCs, and switching combat style while waiting for openings.
When you CC a Mag DK chances are (if they're built around max damage) they've got less than 15k stamina. A break free costs roughly 4k Stamina and dodge rolls will cost around 2k -Addition: Costs scales up upon usage- or so since they're not using med armor; You're honestly suggesting you cannot CC (hard/soft) to force them to break/dodge so there stamina is depleted and you're able to attack them with better ease? Do you PvP???

Starting with DK use wings: You forget fear so after DK breaks and uses fossilize a Mag blade can use there decoy cloak thing to switch places or fear if close by; I even stated that earlier that they can use that to apply minor maim to weaken damage. This also doesn't make any sense since I do not see the point of this.

The last sentence has me confused. You make this statement as if ultimates are flying off the bar, this isn't 1.5 DK where we had Dynamic ultimate regen which would be the only way for your argument to hold any ground whatsoever. You can do plenty of things to counter wings because no one is spamming it so hitting from a distance after wings are dropped is possible, using CCs to burn stamina is possible, using different abilities instead of using ranged abilities is possible especially when it doesn't completely shut down ranged combat.

The only change from what I've gathered that would please you is if Mag DKs can no longer use it more effectively and the only way to do that is by converting it to Stamina instead of making it the useless ability it is now where poisons drain the hell out of your resources, DoTs keep your health capped below 100%, and debuffs impede your combative prowess even further by applying debilitating affects such as being slowed, defiled, or fractured.
This is a close ranged class I do not understand your view.

cwp303b14_ESO · April 2019

I still haven't seen a single response to the 19 meter gap that a dk has to traverse on foot before they can even begin to start engaging a ranged enemy. Add to that all the status effects and DoTs collected on the way. Yeah...

Ranged attack = 41m
Dk gap closer(chains) = 22m
Distance before dk can engage = 19m

19 meters of just burning stam or mag before the fight begins for them! Dk gap closer is only 3m longer than the distance they have to run before they can use it!!! LOL

How bad would you have to be if you couldn't exploit that?!

Not one single thought out response to this issue. I bet if there is it'll be to change their playstyle completely or to make terrain spring from the earth to magically line of sight the ranged enemy's 19 METERS OF FREE DAMAGE! Hahaha

likecats · April 2019

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

I still haven't seen a single response to the 19 meter gap that a dk has to traverse on foot before they can even begin to start engaging a ranged enemy. Add to that all the status effects and DoTs collected on the way. Yeah...

Ranged attack = 41m
Dk gap closer(chains) = 22m
Distance before dk can engage = 19m

19 meters of just burning stam or mag before the fight begins for them! Dk gap closer is only 3m longer than the distance they have to run before they can use it!!! LOL

How bad would you have to be if you couldn't exploit that?!

Not one single thought out response to this issue. I bet if there is it'll be to change their playstyle completely or to make terrain spring from the earth to magically line of sight the ranged enemy's 19 METERS OF FREE DAMAGE! Hahaha

Maybe try using force pulse. It has a 41m range just like every other ranged skill. You also gain access to desto light attacks, so your ranged damage will be OP (according to DKs).

You won't kill anything, and it may feel odd using a ranged skill on a melee class, you might also not have bar space, but everyone has to make sacrfices.

DK's on the forum have told me that it is perfectly possible to kill people by just spamming force pulse so YMMV.

Universe · April 2019

You don't need wings...
You can board a plane and fly to your destination

Veg · April 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

For whatever balancing this is supposed to achieve, the cost is that Magic DK's are no longer "Magic DK's". This is like removing the invisibility of cloak from knight blades or the teleport from sorcs. Even if you manage to even things out in other areas, it still kills that unique style of game play.

That being said, If those fire balls that can shoot out every 1/2 second can compete with the regular reflected projectile damage then it's not the end of the world for people that play the class because they like the unique style of pvp.

Jhalin wrote: »

The idea for the ability itself isn’t bad, it’s the cost of losing such a huge feature of the class that’s bad

Yes, reflecting the projectile damage and all secondary effects was too strong. But instead of completely removing the tool, why not at least preserve the spirit of it on one of the morphs

All secondary effects have always gone through reflect.

That’s observably incorrect

If someone casts Poison Injection on a DK with wings up, the DK will not have the Poison DoT applied to them, the attacker will be affected. If Flame Reach is cast on a DK with wings up, the DK will not be CC’d, the attacker will be

Presumably you interpreted secondary effects to mean things like Burning or Poisoned status effects, which is not what I was referring to. I’ve also never noticed those things going through Wings, but maybe they do. I couldn’t say one way or the other as I’m more concerned about the ability itself being reflected back than the application of a minor status effect.

Unless its been patched, any Dot's debuffs or literally any secondary effect ignores wings. People have been complaining about it for years.

LittlePinkDot · April 2019

Im on PS4. Can anyone tell me how the buffed coagulated blood is now?

Plasma_Elf · April 2019

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Im on PS4. Can anyone tell me how the buffed coagulated blood is now?

the buff on the pts increased my tool-tip by ~1500

Spizzie · April 2019

MaxwellC wrote: »

First sentence doesn't make sense what do you mean I can afford to wait for wings to drop? As a Stam DK the only CC you got that's realiable and a class hard CC (goes through block) is fossilize/morph so that assertion is incorrect and ignored.
You're arguing a statement after you setup a situation to argue against? No that's not how that works mate.

Mag Sorc has ways to counter wings again no Mag DK is simply spamming them let alone a Stam DK like this notion that you're eluding to i.e 100% up-time is false and can clearly be proven by going into Cyrodill right now and teaming up with any DK. You act as if there are no abilities that a Mag Sorc or a Mag NB can use that do decent damage and aren't affected by wings so that again is another setting up a situation/narrative to argue against to better suit your narrative i.e Strawmanning.

The second sentence starting from "Your position" doesn't make sense. This change affects wings so ofc this comes from a perspective of someone who primarily (only plays DK) plays the DK class. No you again misrepresented my statement I provided plenty of ways to counter wings such as waiting for the time to pass, spamming LAs/dodge them, hard CCs, and switching combat style while waiting for openings.
When you CC a Mag DK chances are (if they're built around max damage) they've got less than 15k stamina. A break free costs roughly 4k Stamina and dodge rolls will cost around 2k -Addition: Costs scales up upon usage- or so since they're not using med armor; You're honestly suggesting you cannot CC (hard/soft) to force them to break/dodge so there stamina is depleted and you're able to attack them with better ease? Do you PvP???

Starting with DK use wings: You forget fear so after DK breaks and uses fossilize a Mag blade can use there decoy cloak thing to switch places or fear if close by; I even stated that earlier that they can use that to apply minor maim to weaken damage. This also doesn't make any sense since I do not see the point of this.

The last sentence has me confused. You make this statement as if ultimates are flying off the bar, this isn't 1.5 DK where we had Dynamic ultimate regen which would be the only way for your argument to hold any ground whatsoever. You can do plenty of things to counter wings because no one is spamming it so hitting from a distance after wings are dropped is possible, using CCs to burn stamina is possible, using different abilities instead of using ranged abilities is possible especially when it doesn't completely shut down ranged combat.

The only change from what I've gathered that would please you is if Mag DKs can no longer use it more effectively and the only way to do that is by converting it to Stamina instead of making it the useless ability it is now where poisons drain the hell out of your resources, DoTs keep your health capped below 100%, and debuffs impede your combative prowess even further by applying debilitating affects such as being slowed, defiled, or fractured.
This is a close ranged class I do not understand your view.

It's real simple: you can afford to wait for wings to drop because Poison Inject is the only ability you have that is affected by wings. In other words, you can wait to poison inject and instead use every other attack ability that you have to do your damage until an opportunity for poison inject arises. Poison Inject isn't your spammable, it isn't your CC, and it isn't even your big damage dealer. It's just an added DoT from range. If you're a solid DK player, you can probably kill a DK without poison inject entirely, it'll just be a little more difficult.

Now go play as a MagBlade and try to kill a DK without Swallow Soul, Bow Proc, light attacks, or Cripple. Please let me know how that goes. Because while you can afford to not use Poison Inject for the duration of their wings, a MagBlade is wondering how they're supposed to bring a DK below 80% health.

A MagSorc can actually kill a DK without projectiles, but it's certainly not easy and it almost always will require an ultimate to pair with Curse/Crushing Shock/Wrath and Streak or Rune cage for the stun. MagSorcs have a hard time, MagBlades have a damn near impossible time. Again, please point me to the rotation that a MagBlade is supposed to use to get a DK below 80% health. I haven't heard it yet other than you suggest that they gap close (which doesn't do much damage) and fear (which does no damage). You even suggested that once they gap close, and fear, then they should use their Shade to teleport away or fear again, the 2nd of which would now do nothing because they're CC immune on top of doing no damage.

Now am I to understand that you just admitted that you -only- play DK? Because that's what the underlined sentence strongly implies. Not only did you type as much in paranthesis, but you went on to suggest that a viable solution to countering wings would be to light attack to break the target cap and roll dodge the reflected LA's. Please know that if you've ever seen anyone doing this as a counter to wings, they are a trashcan player that is actively draining their own stamina for you.

You have to know that in CP-enabled PvP, 15K stamina on a mag toon is more than enough to breakfree every single time you get CC'd, and it's even easier if you're a MagDK. You're getting 1000 Stamina for each fossilize use. You can use Leap more often than once every 40 seconds, which is returning 4000 stamina. If you use Fossilize on cooldown, along with Leap when it recharges, you're gaining roughly 265 Stamina per second, equivalent to 530 stam recovery. That's on top of their innate stam recovery, the constitution passive, and tri-pots. No decent MagDK will ever be caught without stamina. Furthermore, good PvP players on -any- mag build are going to build enough stamina into their character to account for breaking free on cooldown indefinitely. You won't drain my stamina on a single Magtoon I have because I've built enough stamina into my characters and I'm not stupid enough to roll dodge often. The only time you ARE able to drain the stam bar of a good player on a mag toon is in Non-CP PvP.

Finally, you complain about poisons, DoTs and debuffs.. you realize that literally every single class has to deal with these same issues? Even Wardens receive the CC's, DoTs, and Debuffs that accompany a projectile absorbed by their Shimmering Shield.

I exclusively PvP in this game. I haven't done anything PvE since October. And I play on multiple different characters, including a StamDK with a bow. I urge you to play as another class, particularly one that relies on projectiles, and tell me how you do against a competent DK. Otherwise, your bias is showing.

Spizzie · April 2019

Veg wrote: »

Unless its been patched, any Dot's debuffs or literally any secondary effect ignores wings. People have been complaining about it for years.

It hasn't been this way since before Summerset. Go test it with a buddy. Have them use Lethal Arrow on you and you use Wings to send it back. You'll have no major defile or poisoned status, but they will.

wheem_ESO · April 2019

Spizzie wrote: »

The only time you ARE able to drain the stam bar of a good player on a mag toon is in Non-CP PvP.

And a DK's ability to do this is unrivaled, which is something else that should probably be up on the chopping block. I guess if you have Summerset, and Race Against Time doesn't get nerfed before going live, it'll be somewhat less of an issue, but on live it's a little silly.

Xogath · April 2019

Minalan wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Patro wrote: »

jeedrzej wrote: »

How about empowering chains...?

Chains give free cc immunity.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Empowering chains is the gap closer morph, it doesn't pull the enemy it pulls you to the target and gives you 2 empower stacks. You can follow it up with fossilize without any issue. I do it constantly.

Apparently because you have two thumbs.

The window lickers will never be happy with the absolute power House theyve been handed with DK this patch.

And Stamina DKs?

We're still waiting on good news that isn't "use a weapon skill for a spammable".

pieratsos · April 2019

MaxwellC wrote: »

@pieratsos
Actually no I didn't even notice the change when they made that ability un-reflect-able my issue is people who complain about wings have only done so recently in an effort to further move the goal-post after complaining about other things like fossilize being OP and before that our passives.
Continually taking something from a class instead of changing one skill to appease a small vocal minority is rather infuriating to someone who has only played the class from almost the beginning of this games launch.

Instead of making assertions please search my comments using this sites feature and look for any comment I have made when they made that destro skill un-reflect-able; I can save you the trouble here and tell you I didn't but you don't believe feel free but again to assume I said that makes an Ass out of U and Me.

I dont need to search ur comments. I remember ur history very well. You are literally complaining every single patch that DK is dead useless or whatever. Lets not forget that "jump ship DK dead, zos hates us". Or you know pre morrowind state of igneous that every DK could use it to permanently sustain their stamina but u were complaining that its useless and needed a buff because ur medium armor DK wannabe nightblade with zero max stamina and magicka sustain investment couldnt use effectively a skill which scaled off max stamina and cost magicka.

The point wasnt whether u were complaining about a specific change. The point is about you complaining in general no matter what changes you get. Which clearly flew way over your head. You are not saving me the trouble. Im saving you the trouble because if i were to actually go through ur comments id literally fill this thread with ur complaints about DK being dead every single patch and id definitely make a fool out of you. So yeah, you will either complain or complain.

pieratsos · April 2019

Xogath wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Patro wrote: »

jeedrzej wrote: »

How about empowering chains...?

Chains give free cc immunity.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Empowering chains is the gap closer morph, it doesn't pull the enemy it pulls you to the target and gives you 2 empower stacks. You can follow it up with fossilize without any issue. I do it constantly.

Apparently because you have two thumbs.

The window lickers will never be happy with the absolute power House theyve been handed with DK this patch.

And Stamina DKs?

We're still waiting on good news that isn't "use a weapon skill for a spammable".

You can wait them alongside the other stamina classes that get zero changes as well. At least you get a minor buff or two here and there.

cwp303b14_ESO · April 2019

Still no real non-troll responses to the 19 meter effective dead zone a DK has to cover on foot before they can engage using class skills.

All other classes have defense AND offense at range.

DK defense is weakened. Still no offense at range. Have to cover almost as much ground by burning resource to move towards the enemy as their gap closer provides. This is a joke

Mag NB complains because sometimes their ranged skills are countered. DK whip, embers, breath, chains all countered 100% of the time at range.

I can see the response already, "but a good dk never drops wings" which is hyperbole. Sometimes they do. As in, its happened in the history of the game. Know what has literally never hit someone at range? All dk main attacks.

MaxwellC · April 2019

@pieratsos
Again that's B.S I've not complained about every patch that DK is useless some patches I complained changing this skill was a bad idea and oh look the devs themselves now talk about resource issues DKs have in PvP, issues which I virulently argued against them doing in the very first place.

I've actually argued for balance pretty fairly in respects to nerfing embers after advocating to change dragons blood to scale better with max magicka because before the first change opportunity it was to change it to max missing health. I've advocated for changes to nerf our very passive around healing received as healing received shouldn't get buffed from our very own skills. The list can go on but please don't be an idiot and suggest I've said anything like DKs are dead or made ill faith complaints because I've definitely not and you can easily search any thread post where I include rant in the title or dk and quote it here to prove me wrong.

Also I remember your name I've argued with you before because of your ridiculous comments and as such I'll just stop responding to you here as I recall it being a waste of time as you really had nothing substantive to refute anything I had stated in the past and that's after searching your comments just now with me in them.

Also found it funny how you suggested I want to be a wannabe nightblade because I use medium armor, shows how narrow minded your thinking is as you tie medium being suited to one class instead of multiple classes. So what me using 5 light on my Mag DK now makes me a wannabe sorc lol gtfo with that nonsense done with you.

MaxwellC · April 2019

@Spizzie
You're only assuming I use poison inject I can use other abilities too also in PvP who doesn't animation cancel? I animation cancel inject with LA/HA or draining shot with LA/HA; others may use a plethora of ranged options so again this is skewed for your arguments sake.
Poison inject is used for DoTs it is a good damage dealer when closing someones health-bar as damage scales up; Also it limits the HP bar which further puts the fight in my corner so I don't get your point.

Again there's plenty of ways to out last/out play a Mag DK on a Mag NB and concealed weapon does decent damage and I know from playing PvP Mag NBs hitting me 4k+ per use through nearly 2k impen and 20k resistances is pretty solid. You're again implying there's a 100% up-time in wings like after someone uses it they immediately use it again which is false.
Shadow teleport again was used as a strat that most Mag NBs I see utilize when fighting me to weaken me and go in for the kill after stunning me, arguing how I would make a strategy for you to fight seems ridiculous since it's a case by case scenario and you'd only get how I play rather than how anyone generally plays.

Never suggested a gap closer is a way to get a DK under 80% HP don't put words in my mouth. I've suggested using many abilitlies like we all do to bring down your opponent. It's not hard to CC when possible, LoS when needed, and be offensive/defensive when the opportunity aligns its self. What is your PvP rank and do you play Xbox come duel me.

Umm I've drained plenty of Mag DKs stam remember as a Stam DK you only have one hard CC and that's fossilize so as a stam DK I've got one hard CC yet every other class except probably warden/necro doesn't have one. No other class has a difficult time draining a stamina bar if you do then that is a serious L2P issue heck I've got a video of a 1vX with a DK literally getting his stam bar burned in the midst, wanna see it?

Every class deals with the DoT debuffs,etc yet every other class has mobility,purge,shields,massive heals, and the ability to disengage fights at will (cloak) yet DK has what? We've got one thing and that's wings. You want us to what run away from a fight when we're getting outnumbered or with this change take the hits/debuffs to drain our stamina while we flee while others simply purge/cloak away.

You talk about my bias but clearly you're bias'd against the DK class from the way you consistently frame your arguments. I ask again what is your PvP rank and would you like to duel me on live; I haven't played in a bit since I've taken a break from the game but I'd like to see how you play.

Addition: How would a DK sustain the debuffs/dots and or disengage from the fight with this new change? This change only benefits you if you play a tank setup in PvP i.e 5 Heavy. How would a DK who doesn't play 5 heavy but 5 light or 5 medium benefit from this change and how would they survive.

Joy_Division · April 2019

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

Still no real non-troll responses to the 19 meter effective dead zone a DK has to cover on foot before they can engage using class skills.

All other classes have defense AND offense at range.

DK defense is weakened. Still no offense at range. Have to cover almost as much ground by burning resource to move towards the enemy as their gap closer provides. This is a joke

Mag NB complains because sometimes their ranged skills are countered. DK whip, embers, breath, chains all countered 100% of the time at range.

I can see the response already, "but a good dk never drops wings" which is hyperbole. Sometimes they do. As in, its happened in the history of the game. Know what has literally never hit someone at range? All dk main attacks.

If you can;t figure that out, then you have been crutching on a single mechanic the entire time you have been playing ESO.

Roll a Templar, a class with zero preventive defenses. You'll see that your DK will get to the target faster and taking less damage than the templar.

cwp303b14_ESO · April 2019

Joy_Division wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

Still no real non-troll responses to the 19 meter effective dead zone a DK has to cover on foot before they can engage using class skills.

All other classes have defense AND offense at range.

DK defense is weakened. Still no offense at range. Have to cover almost as much ground by burning resource to move towards the enemy as their gap closer provides. This is a joke

Mag NB complains because sometimes their ranged skills are countered. DK whip, embers, breath, chains all countered 100% of the time at range.

I can see the response already, "but a good dk never drops wings" which is hyperbole. Sometimes they do. As in, its happened in the history of the game. Know what has literally never hit someone at range? All dk main attacks.

If you can;t figure that out, then you have been crutching on a single mechanic the entire time you have been playing ESO.

Roll a Templar, a class with zero preventive defenses. You'll see that your DK will get to the target faster and taking less damage than the templar.

You mean a templar with ranged attacks, a shield, the biggest heals and a low cost purge to peel off all those dots and status effects. You got me. I'll just use my dk... umm... uhh... hmm. Tell you what, just hold still while I close 19 meters on foot. Then it's on!

Why are you shooting me at max range? You're supposed to hold still and not kite me and not use your ranged attacks while I cant hit you. That would be unfair to DKs right? Here, I'll just slot another weapon or multiple skills since my class literally can't damage you at range, unlike other classes like warden who also has the absorb on shimmering shield, since you don't want to alter your playstyle.

I mean, sometimes you couldn't use your class damage skills on a dk at range. DKs never could. As far as class skills are concerned every class has a 100% shield to DKs from 41m to 22m.

pieratsos · April 2019

MaxwellC wrote: »

@pieratsos
Again that's B.S I've not complained about every patch that DK is useless some patches I complained changing this skill was a bad idea and oh look the devs themselves now talk about resource issues DKs have in PvP, issues which I virulently argued against them doing in the very first place.

I've actually argued for balance pretty fairly in respects to nerfing embers after advocating to change dragons blood to scale better with max magicka because before the first change opportunity it was to change it to max missing health. I've advocated for changes to nerf our very passive around healing received as healing received shouldn't get buffed from our very own skills. The list can go on but please don't be an idiot and suggest I've said anything like DKs are dead or made ill faith complaints because I've definitely not and you can easily search any thread post where I include rant in the title or dk and quote it here to prove me wrong.

Also I remember your name I've argued with you before because of your ridiculous comments and as such I'll just stop responding to you here as I recall it being a waste of time as you really had nothing substantive to refute anything I had stated in the past and that's after searching your comments just now with me in them.

Also found it funny how you suggested I want to be a wannabe nightblade because I use medium armor, shows how narrow minded your thinking is as you tie medium being suited to one class instead of multiple classes. So what me using 5 light on my Mag DK now makes me a wannabe sorc lol gtfo with that nonsense done with you.

Every single update which involved class balance change u were complaining. You can keep playing dumb but u really cant save it. I mean, here you are once again complaining about DK in a patch full of DK buffs and trying to argue balance while saying that magblades are not countered by DKs because they can use lotus fan and fear. lol

Yeah you should stop responding to me cause every time you tried to argue with me, you ended up making a fool out of urself with ur biased bs.

Narrow minded? Im not tying medium armor to NB genius. "wannabe nb" was a figure of speech but i wouldnt expect you to understand. The point flew over your head once again. My point was ur choice of going all in full weapon damage on a class which benefited the most from max stamina and then whining in the forums why ur class utility abilities which scaled off ur max resource werent good enough for your build. Congratulations, you once again made a fool out of urself. Please carry on.

Joy_Division · April 2019

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

Still no real non-troll responses to the 19 meter effective dead zone a DK has to cover on foot before they can engage using class skills.

All other classes have defense AND offense at range.

DK defense is weakened. Still no offense at range. Have to cover almost as much ground by burning resource to move towards the enemy as their gap closer provides. This is a joke

Mag NB complains because sometimes their ranged skills are countered. DK whip, embers, breath, chains all countered 100% of the time at range.

I can see the response already, "but a good dk never drops wings" which is hyperbole. Sometimes they do. As in, its happened in the history of the game. Know what has literally never hit someone at range? All dk main attacks.

If you can;t figure that out, then you have been crutching on a single mechanic the entire time you have been playing ESO.

Roll a Templar, a class with zero preventive defenses. You'll see that your DK will get to the target faster and taking less damage than the templar.

You mean a templar with ranged attacks, a shield, the biggest heals and a low cost purge to peel off all those dots and status effects. You got me. I'll just use my dk... umm... uhh... hmm. Tell you what, just hold still while I close 19 meters on foot. Then it's on!

Why are you shooting me at max range? You're supposed to hold still and not kite me and not use your ranged attacks while I cant hit you. That would be unfair to DKs right? Here, I'll just slot another weapon or multiple skills since my class literally can't damage you at range, unlike other classes like warden who also has the absorb on shimmering shield, since you don't want to alter your playstyle.

I mean, sometimes you couldn't use your class damage skills on a dk at range. DKs never could. As far as class skills are concerned every class has a 100% shield to DKs from 41m to 22m.

DK also has a health based shield (a better one as it provides major mending, an effect your class stole from templars, which you have no problem with btw), also with a ranged attack - that stuns - and also with a burst heal that got buffed by a whopping 19% and thus will heal for just as much if not more than BoL when at low health. You are so used to ignoring projectiles completely that you dont even realize DKs already have many of the same tools, some of which are superior to templar counterparts.

You type as if it's impossible to somehow close the distance with a range build when in this game it is easy on any class. A kiter cannot sprint and use their abilities at the same time, their projectiles are always dodgeable (while dodges avoid snares, quite convenient), gap closers have no cooldown, next patch everyone has access to major expedition and snare/root immunity. The reason why archers crutch on Snipe is because trying to kite in this game with a bow is almost hopeless. It's really not that difficult to bring them to melee range and if they aren;t a NB with cloak or teleport or a sorcerer with streak, they are very easy to keep in melee range. They can stun once every 7 seconds but the other 6 they are hounded. If people cant figure out how to close the gap vs a range build on any class, they need to either reexamine their build or L2P.

I mean, sometimes you couldn't use your class damage skills on a dk at range. DKs never could. As far as class skills are concerned every class has a 100% shield to DKs from 41m to 22m.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Stonefist