DragonKnight without Wings...

theshockcable

Wing wrote: »

theshockcable wrote: »

I think honestly if you rely on wings, which I call "training wheels" you're not using your class abilities and other abilities to their full potential.

Empowering Chains is the morph you want for this particular gap closer you're looking for.

Empowering Chains, Fossilize, Flame Lash, Power Lash

Rinse & Repeat

the End

that's like calling breath of life templar training wheels.

Nope that's totally different mechanic. Good try though. 🤓

Wing

theshockcable wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

theshockcable wrote: »

I think honestly if you rely on wings, which I call "training wheels" you're not using your class abilities and other abilities to their full potential.

Empowering Chains is the morph you want for this particular gap closer you're looking for.

Empowering Chains, Fossilize, Flame Lash, Power Lash

Rinse & Repeat

the End

that's like calling breath of life templar training wheels.

Nope that's totally different mechanic. Good try though. 🤓

not really, both are critical to the class, its identity, and help inform its role and how it plays.

chains has been and will continue to be a joke, sure, go ahead with your combo or chaining to them, fossilize, lash lash. . .okay now they heal up what now? DK (especially magicka) has always had a hard time securing kills, that's why it relies so heavily on things like valkyn scoria.

its also a melee range caster (as opposed to. . .every other class caster) wings were the defining point of "hey I don't a lot to throw at you but you wont have a lot to throw at me"

in any case the magicka DK playstyle has just fallen on its face for the most part and the game has evolved past it being a threat in pvp, as more options for cleanse and mobility become a things, as well as further nerfs to things like snares, immobilization, and the only dots being viable are of the stamina / bleed variety, it will further fall out of favor.

its still okay in pve though, were NPC mobs don't benefit from its counters. but in pvp, I would rather play ANY other spec than a magicka DK

Bashev

Did anyone test which skills are reduced by 50%? Are the skills that could be reflected or now warden birds and crushing shot is reduced too?

MaxwellC

Lol love how people show their tunnel vision so proudly in this thread and across others with statements suggesting DKs are/were as a whole a power house.
Here I am looking at yet another Stamina DK nerf since wings effectively make it even more difficult to get within range while debuffs,dots, and poisons bring down a class that's focused around close range combat.

I'll be doing a video showing this after I tested it already in PTS on a Stam DK of how terrible this change is.

Aedaryl

MaxwellC wrote: »

Lol love how people show their tunnel vision so proudly in this thread and across others with statements suggesting DKs are/were as a whole a power house.
Here I am looking at yet another Stamina DK nerf since wings effectively make it even more difficult to get within range while debuffs,dots, and poisons bring down a class that's focused around close range combat.

I'll be doing a video showing this after I tested it already in PTS on a Stam DK of how terrible this change is.

Your argument is stupid.

Other class also have to deal with range and don't cry about it.

The fact that you have 50% mitigation on projectile and still complaining about it as being "terrible" just make me thing this is a personnal issue.

Crying about wings not being a good tool for being in close range is a L2P issue.

If there is 2 people minimum on you, the live wings last a single second. On PTS, the new wings will work vs a unlimited amount of people.

New wings are a great 1vX tool, while the old one was a 1v1 hardcounter that became a 1s reflect if 2 ranged people was involved.

Crying about wings being terrible is crying about not being able to tank AS A STAMINA DK with 50% damage mitigation the damage of a single player.

satanio

Aedaryl wrote: »

The fact that you have 50% mitigation on projectile and still complaining about it as being "terrible" just make me thing this is a personnal issue.

You're ignoring the fact that everyone is pointing out: 50% is nice but eating everything else from those projectiles is not so nice.

Aedaryl wrote: »

New wings are a great 1vX tool, while the old one was a 1v1 hardcounter that became a 1s reflect if 2 ranged people was involved.

1vX is true only and only if X has majority of rangeds that refuse to use some nonprojectile skills.

I actually, surprisingly, find one morph of wings kinda usable on DK - Fire Scale mrph.
The second morph... Race Against Time is just better.

Blinkin8r

asuzab16_ESO wrote: »

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Patro wrote: »

I would like to have an opinion from someone like me who has tried magicka DK against other players on PTS.
I think the 50% reduction of projectiles damage is not enough to compensate for the wings nerf.
Magicka DK has no effective class ranged skills and his gap closer (Fiery Grip) is unusable because it gives cc immunity to the opponent.
Every ranged class abble to stay distant now puts the magicka DK in great difficulty.

No other class in this game has an ability that completely negates 50% of all ranged damage. This is an incredibly strong skill. Before it was a cheap ability that if kept up completely negated all ranged damage. If you have a nerfed sniper spamming you:
1: Empowering Chains to them Out of range
2: They'll try to cloak away, break their cloak with spiked armor Out of range
3: Fossilize Out of range
4: Burn them down Yep, still out of range

If you can't adapt to taking any ranged damage that's a big fat L2P.

Your example works only for fights in close environments. In open spaces, not a single skill you mentioned can reach a ranged attacker and if it does, then that ranged player really sucks hard... 50% is a lot and it might be difficult to kill DKs but you now have the tools to really easily make sure that they can't kill you either. If you die versus a mDK on PTS, then it means that you have huge positioning issues and that's also a big fat L2P.

1: If you are out of range of empowering range: Move closer, you are allowed to move. Remember, you can't spam wings and just sit there any more.
2: If spiked armor isn't pulling them out of cloak, move closer. Remember, you can't spam wings and just sit there any more.
3: Fossilize. If you're too far away, move closer. Remember, you can't spam wings and just sit there any more.
4: If you can't apply your dots from where you are, try moving a bit closer to the nightblade. Remember, you can't spam wings and just sit there any more.

Zophix

Patro wrote: »

1: If you are out of range of empowering range: Move closer, you are allowed to move. Remember, you can't spam wings and just sit there any more.
2: If spiked armor isn't pulling them out of cloak, move closer. Remember, you can't spam wings and just sit there any more.
3: Fossilize. If you're too far away, move closer. Remember, you can't spam wings and just sit there any more.
4: If you can't apply your dots from where you are, try moving a bit closer to the nightblade. Remember, you can't spam wings and just sit there any more.

Unless you built around spamming wings you could never sit there and spam wings.

brtomkin

The forum outcry over the wings change is reaching similar levels to the sorc shield nerf. This level of opposition resulted in a partial revert of that nerf - will continued outrage over the wings change yield the same result?

Spizzie

Aedaryl wrote: »

Your argument is stupid.

Other class also have to deal with range and don't cry about it.

The fact that you have 50% mitigation on projectile and still complaining about it as being "terrible" just make me thing this is a personnal issue.

Crying about wings not being a good tool for being in close range is a L2P issue.

If there is 2 people minimum on you, the live wings last a single second. On PTS, the new wings will work vs a unlimited amount of people.

New wings are a great 1vX tool, while the old one was a 1v1 hardcounter that became a 1s reflect if 2 ranged people was involved.

Crying about wings being terrible is crying about not being able to tank AS A STAMINA DK with 50% damage mitigation the damage of a single player.

I agree with absolutely everything said here except what's in bold. Wardens have almost no fear of projectile attacks, particularly mag wardens. Sure they still get the CC and Debuff from Destro Reach, but they eat the first hit, the LA that's weaved in between, and then the frags/swallow soul that follows. If you're a Stamden with no cost reduction for magicka abilities, eating 3 projectiles returns almost half of the cost of the ability and now you have one of the most powerful buffs in the game in Major Heroism. A Magden in light armor can pretty much infinitely sustain if it eats 3 projectiles everytime, as the cost for a single cast of Shimmering Shield would be roughly 1100 magicka for 20K damage absorption and Major Heroism.

This isn't to say Wardens shouldn't have that ability. It's just that there is precedent for hard-countering ranged play, and now DK's have the obviously inferior tool for doing so. Every DK that plays the game would happily trade out the PTS version of Wings for Shimmering Shield in a heartbeat. 50% projectile damage reduction for 6s with 2s snare immunity vs 20K damage absorption from 3 projectiles with Major Heroism, at 1/3rd the cost. It's not even close.

MaxwellC

@Aedaryl
Your argument is definitely stupid you feel that 50% mitigation of ranged projectiles for X seconds is somehow better than reflecting x projectiles for x seconds? So taking damage is somehow better than not taking damage and that's without adding the context.

I actually did test it when I went to retrieve something from my mates house and had him/his roomate duel/1vX me and it was horrendous. They slotted poisons with injection and it was just simply brutal since we always started from a long distance and my resources where getting wrecked.

I would love if people who actually oh I don't know test the damn ability, actually make a response based off of data and not their bias-ass opinion.

I stated I'll make a video so people can get a better idea and further extrapolate based on the context of said video. My 1vX video on YT shows exactly why previously wings was better because it allowed those players who had poisons on their projectiles not to be able to stack them on me till I am dead.
Effectively as Wrobel said (Paraphrased) when poison stacking was brought to his attention "If you fight multiple opponents, you're just gonna die anyway"; effectively this is the results for a class who is a close ranged class that had an ability which forces the opponent to a close range battle.

cwp303b14_ESO

Spizzie wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Your argument is stupid.

Other class also have to deal with range and don't cry about it.

The fact that you have 50% mitigation on projectile and still complaining about it as being "terrible" just make me thing this is a personnal issue.

Crying about wings not being a good tool for being in close range is a L2P issue.

If there is 2 people minimum on you, the live wings last a single second. On PTS, the new wings will work vs a unlimited amount of people.

New wings are a great 1vX tool, while the old one was a 1v1 hardcounter that became a 1s reflect if 2 ranged people was involved.

Crying about wings being terrible is crying about not being able to tank AS A STAMINA DK with 50% damage mitigation the damage of a single player.

I agree with absolutely everything said here except what's in bold. Wardens have almost no fear of projectile attacks, particularly mag wardens. Sure they still get the CC and Debuff from Destro Reach, but they eat the first hit, the LA that's weaved in between, and then the frags/swallow soul that follows. If you're a Stamden with no cost reduction for magicka abilities, eating 3 projectiles returns almost half of the cost of the ability and now you have one of the most powerful buffs in the game in Major Heroism. A Magden in light armor can pretty much infinitely sustain if it eats 3 projectiles everytime, as the cost for a single cast of Shimmering Shield would be roughly 1100 magicka for 20K damage absorption and Major Heroism.

This isn't to say Wardens shouldn't have that ability. It's just that there is precedent for hard-countering ranged play, and now DK's have the obviously inferior tool for doing so. Every DK that plays the game would happily trade out the PTS version of Wings for Shimmering Shield in a heartbeat. 50% projectile damage reduction for 6s with 2s snare immunity vs 20K damage absorption from 3 projectiles with Major Heroism, at 1/3rd the cost. It's not even close.

I think you put it perfectly in that post. There's almost no complaining about wardens parallel skill and yet it's cheaper and on a class that can also use class skills at range.

Also to all who say that dks can use chains(22m) to counter ranged attacks(28m) and that the 6m gap the dk has to traverse by running on foot is negligible are forgetting that in pvp ranged attacks are extended so its actually much farther(I think up to 41m) so now that gap where the dk cant touch you with class skills is 19m. You're lying to yourself if you think 19m is negligible since dk gap closer is literally 3m longer lol.

Take the reflect off, keep 4 projectiles absorbed and the snare immunity. Now you aren't punished for attacking with wings up and the dk isnt punished for having zero spammable long range attacks.

Spizzie

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Aedaryl

Effectively as Wrobel said (Paraphrased) when poison stacking was brought to his attention "If you fight multiple opponents, you're just gonna die anyway"; effectively this is the results for a class who is a close ranged class that had an ability which forces the opponent to a close range battle.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it actually doesn't force the opponent into a close range battle, it forces some opponents to completely ignore several of the tools in their toolkit. Wings is going to send back that Poison Inject/Frags/Bow whether you're 8 meters away or 28 meters away.

Perhaps if there was a mechanic baked into the ability that continued to allow it to reflect projectiles but only if the caster originated at 15 meters or greater, we could find a happy medium. Then it would effectively force the opponent into a close ranged battle to be able to use their full toolkit, but then the DK would be very close to striking distance for it's biggest abilities. This would allow for some very interesting counterplay between DK's and other ranged specs, as it would force a Sorc/Magblade to get close enough for their projectiles to land but the DK would still have to close the gap between 15 and 7 meters to use the majority of their toolkit.

MaxwellC

@Spizzie
It actually does force them opponent to either engage with a different form of combat i.e melee ranged combat weapons or use abilities that aren't reflect-able.
If a opponent is trying to attack me from a distance and notices it isn't working then they have the following options. Either let the player drain their own resources spamming wings (not cheap on a Stam DK), Spam LAs to burn projectile cap, CC target with hard CCs and range them, or jump down and fight them with abilities that aren't reflect-able/using melee ranged abilities.

This ability is a counter to one particular style of combat which is ranged focus and yet not all projectiles are reflect-able but instead of adding another which came from MagNBs complaining i.e Cripple grasp, the option is to do away with the ability and give one that sucks?

There really is no median between this change nor should there be one. The skill should be return and they could just appease those who complain by adding another ability that cannot be reflect-able.
Wardens get to keep their shield that does way more than wings yet no one complains about that supposedly "Shutting down ranged combat"

MaxwellC

@cwp303b14_ESO

I'd be down for that if they make it so we absorb the damage and it goes back as Stamina for one shield and magicka for the other or even both since we're supposed to be a class that was built to have the best resource management but that is no longer the case.

Davadin

Wing wrote: »

swap wings with race against time, its better in every regard.

very true. guild skill that every class can get.

now we can let stamDK die alone in a corner, without an identity.................................

Xvorg

caperon wrote: »

Patro wrote: »

jeedrzej wrote: »

How about empowering chains...?

Chains give free cc immunity.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Empowering chains is the gap closer morph, it doesn't pull the enemy it pulls you to the target and gives you 2 empower stacks. You can follow it up with fossilize without any issue. I do it constantly.

empowering chains suffer from the x axis bug... it doesn't work if the enemy is 3 mts above you.

Xvorg

Davadin wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

swap wings with race against time, its better in every regard.

very true. guild skill that every class can get.

now we can let stamDK die alone in a corner, without an identity.................................

Channeled acceleration and mist form are very good options too. In fact, mist form gives you 75% mitigation on all attacks and major expedition.

For mDKs maybe mist form is the best choice, for stam DKs RAT is the way to go.

Wings? Just useless as pre morrowind

Xvorg

Aedaryl wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Lol love how people show their tunnel vision so proudly in this thread and across others with statements suggesting DKs are/were as a whole a power house.
Here I am looking at yet another Stamina DK nerf since wings effectively make it even more difficult to get within range while debuffs,dots, and poisons bring down a class that's focused around close range combat.

I'll be doing a video showing this after I tested it already in PTS on a Stam DK of how terrible this change is.

Your argument is stupid.

Other class also have to deal with range and don't cry about it.

The fact that you have 50% mitigation on projectile and still complaining about it as being "terrible" just make me thing this is a personnal issue.

Crying about wings not being a good tool for being in close range is a L2P issue.

If there is 2 people minimum on you, the live wings last a single second. On PTS, the new wings will work vs a unlimited amount of people.

New wings are a great 1vX tool, while the old one was a 1v1 hardcounter that became a 1s reflect if 2 ranged people was involved.

Crying about wings being terrible is crying about not being able to tank AS A STAMINA DK with 50% damage mitigation the damage of a single player.

Are you really trying to school one of the best Dks in the game?

Regarding how other classes deal with range, nBs just cloak away any projectile, while sorcs shield them or streak away. Temps out heal the dmg and Wardens just shimmering shield them.

So, wings were the way how DKs dealt with range, reducing the dmg taken to 0 (which is waht the other classes do) Now, in comparsisson to those classes, Dks take 50% dmg just in projectiles. Streak and cloak also work on melee attacks.

And you dare to say it is not a nerf?

If I go with my MDK against a NB using a destro staff and the NB cloaks away, how much dmg do I do? Or a Sorc using ball of lightning + ward?

So how it comes the wings NERF (because it is a nerf, right?) is fair, while there are other options to negate projectile dmg?

I do not support any change to cloak. Neither to ward or bolt escape in their defensive mechanics. Do you? If not, then why do you support this change to wings?

asuzab16_ESO

Blinkin8r wrote: »

asuzab16_ESO wrote: »

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Patro wrote: »

I would like to have an opinion from someone like me who has tried magicka DK against other players on PTS.
I think the 50% reduction of projectiles damage is not enough to compensate for the wings nerf.
Magicka DK has no effective class ranged skills and his gap closer (Fiery Grip) is unusable because it gives cc immunity to the opponent.
Every ranged class abble to stay distant now puts the magicka DK in great difficulty.

No other class in this game has an ability that completely negates 50% of all ranged damage. This is an incredibly strong skill. Before it was a cheap ability that if kept up completely negated all ranged damage. If you have a nerfed sniper spamming you:
1: Empowering Chains to them Out of range
2: They'll try to cloak away, break their cloak with spiked armor Out of range
3: Fossilize Out of range
4: Burn them down Yep, still out of range

If you can't adapt to taking any ranged damage that's a big fat L2P.

Your example works only for fights in close environments. In open spaces, not a single skill you mentioned can reach a ranged attacker and if it does, then that ranged player really sucks hard... 50% is a lot and it might be difficult to kill DKs but you now have the tools to really easily make sure that they can't kill you either. If you die versus a mDK on PTS, then it means that you have huge positioning issues and that's also a big fat L2P.

1: If you are out of range of empowering range: Move closer, you are allowed to move. Remember, you can't spam wings and just sit there any more.
2: If spiked armor isn't pulling them out of cloak, move closer. Remember, you can't spam wings and just sit there any more.
3: Fossilize. If you're too far away, move closer. Remember, you can't spam wings and just sit there any more.
4: If you can't apply your dots from where you are, try moving a bit closer to the nightblade. Remember, you can't spam wings and just sit there any more.

That's a very insightful answer... People tell you that we can now be really easily controlled and that we lost our only tool to move closer to any decent ranged that has two thumbs and knows how to kite and your answer is "move closer". Didn't realize it was that simple. I then suggest you just do 200% damage on DKs to compensate the 50% mitigation. Here, problem solved!

asuzab16_ESO

Also to all who say that dks can use chains(22m) to counter ranged attacks(28m) and that the 6m gap the dk has to traverse by running on foot is negligible are forgetting that in pvp ranged attacks are extended so its actually much farther(I think up to 41m) so now that gap where the dk cant touch you with class skills is 19m. You're lying to yourself if you think 19m is negligible since dk gap closer is literally 3m longer lol.

Empowering chains suffer from the x axis bug... it doesn't work if the enemy is 3 mts above you.

Pretty much this. You guys are saying that mDKs can just sprint to close the distance and then use gap closers, but 1. we're not a stam class and we give a huge opening if we use the very little stam we have to close that distance 2. our non ulti gap closer is bugged 3. Without réflection, you can now control us and make sure that we don't even get in range for chains.

So yeah, 50% mitigation is strong, probably too strong but it's not a reason to voluntarily ignore the fact that this change also allows ranged to completely shut us down if they want to. I'm for a nerf of the previous wings but this one benefits no one.

Toc de Malsvi

Xvorg wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Patro wrote: »

jeedrzej wrote: »

How about empowering chains...?

Chains give free cc immunity.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Empowering chains is the gap closer morph, it doesn't pull the enemy it pulls you to the target and gives you 2 empower stacks. You can follow it up with fossilize without any issue. I do it constantly.

empowering chains suffer from the x axis bug... it doesn't work if the enemy is 3 mts above you.

I've tried it and Empowering Chains is as reliable as every other gap closer. It works quite well most of the time. It used to be majorly bugged it isn't anymore.

LordTareq

Patro wrote: »

I would like to have an opinion from someone like me who has tried magicka DK against other players on PTS.
I think the 50% reduction of projectiles damage is not enough to compensate for the wings nerf.

Maybe complete immunity to all damage for the duration?

ochsinator

Does dragon fire scale work on a stam dk do the fire balls skill do good damage does it scale

Spizzie

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Spizzie
It actually does force them opponent to either engage with a different form of combat i.e melee ranged combat weapons or use abilities that aren't reflect-able.
If a opponent is trying to attack me from a distance and notices it isn't working then they have the following options. Either let the player drain their own resources spamming wings (not cheap on a Stam DK), Spam LAs to burn projectile cap, CC target with hard CCs and range them, or jump down and fight them with abilities that aren't reflect-able/using melee ranged abilities.

This ability is a counter to one particular style of combat which is ranged focus and yet not all projectiles are reflect-able but instead of adding another which came from MagNBs complaining i.e Cripple grasp, the option is to do away with the ability and give one that sucks?

There really is no median between this change nor should there be one. The skill should be return and they could just appease those who complain by adding another ability that cannot be reflect-able.
Wardens get to keep their shield that does way more than wings yet no one complains about that supposedly "Shutting down ranged combat"

You just repeated what I've said using slightly different verbiage but with the tone that it was a counterpoint. How is a MagBlade wgoing to "engage with a different form of combat"? You can't just switch out your abilities in the middle of the fight, and even if it were possible via the game code, you'd die in the time that it took to slot a new skill. And please point me to the magicka based melee weapons to which you're referring.

Perhaps making cripple non-reflectable would be a good start, but then you're further reducing the number of abilities that wings is effective against. The struggle with this is finding balance, of which ZOS has completely failed.

Here is the issue, both in the PTS and in Live, despite the difference in the ability:

Wings is extremely punishing to projectile builds, and absolutely useless against anyone without projectiles. Except now instead of requiring the DK to be adept at re-applying Wings when the target cap runs out, it's just a fire-and-forget ability for 6s that STILL makes it impossible for any magblade to kill a competent DK.

PS I definitely complain about Wardens having the ability to completely negate ranged builds while also fighting at range, especially considering that Mag Wardens can kill you from 20 meters away whereas a MagDK still has to get close.

ZoM_Head

JumpmanLane wrote: »

You don’t need a gap closer on MagDk. Let them come to you. Use some kind of Destro staff for range. And 50% damage reduction on all projectiles is a buff 1vX. 1v1 I’ll take my chances.

Magsorcs don’t kite at range. They run. NB’s cloak. Use detect pots and volatile armor to pull them out of cloak. Ezpz

Back in the day, when one could reflect projectiles, DOTs were doing more damage and the mDK was a proper melee class, i would agree with you.

Today, you either get bombarded with projectiles or bursted down from stamina builds, in both situations you are at a serious disadvantage.

You need a gap closer, every class has a method of it. The mDK has to choose between pulling someone to them and granting them CC immunity or Going to them.

Reflect should be as it always way, to reflect projectiles. To prevent spamming, they should make it similar to bolt escape, meaning increase the cost if casted within x seconds by 50% or whatever.

I am not sure, what kind of players you face in Cyrodiil or Battlegrounds, but it seems to me you face more inexperienced players that those who know what they are doing.

Patro

Alucardo wrote: »

Patro wrote: »

Maybe I confused it with the other morph.

Maybe you should try playing magicka dk a little more then. You do realise your entire argument in this thread was based on misinformation?

I play magicka DK since release but in 5 years I have never needed to use chains.

caperon

Patro wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Patro wrote: »

Maybe I confused it with the other morph.

Maybe you should try playing magicka dk a little more then. You do realise your entire argument in this thread was based on misinformation?

I play magicka DK since release but in 5 years I have never needed to use chains.

Pulling people from keeps was fun, didn't use chains then?

Patro

caperon wrote: »

Patro wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Patro wrote: »

Maybe I confused it with the other morph.

Maybe you should try playing magicka dk a little more then. You do realise your entire argument in this thread was based on misinformation?

I play magicka DK since release but in 5 years I have never needed to use chains.

Pulling people from keeps was fun, didn't use chains then?

It lasted too little time!

Dracane

The more I see and read, I am falling more in love with one of the suggestions that is being made over and over.
Letting wings reflect projectiles that are being fired from more than 15 meters away, but let projectiles work unhindered once they go into melee range. I think this solution is just great and solves all problems, for everyone. If this is possible to do, I do not know.