Recovery Food Changes

karpok · April 2019

Or buy the new extension to get the new set for resources regeneration

WrathOfInnos · April 2019

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Double Boody Mara (can we make this equivalent to blue bistat at least?)
- 4575 Max Health / 9.4 = 489
- 4575 Max Magicka / 8.5 = 538
- Total Effectiveness = 1027
- Edit: Apparently this was buffed on PTS, now giving 5117 Max Magicka and 5652 Max Health, making it better than blue bistat food, which makes sense since it is a gold quality recipe that requires daedra hearts to make. So thanks!

Are you sure this is intended and not a bug? Because it was not mentioned in the patch notes and a lot of food is currently bugged on PTS in terms of stats.

@Olupajmibanan Entirely possible that it’s bugged.

MLGProPlayer · April 2019

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Oh, look. Having the utility of sustain (Breton) and still be top DPS can cause balancing problems. I told you so.
It's only Orc health that's overperforming, and people told you so on race change PTS. ZOS are now punishing players for a mistake they (ZOS) made.
Whatever. I'm unaffected. If you wanna know, TRISTAT food is heavily overloaded.

ZOS wouldn't be ZOS if they listened to feedback.

WrathOfInnos · April 2019

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Oh, look. Having the utility of sustain (Breton) and still be top DPS can cause balancing problems. I told you so.
It's only Orc health that's overperforming, and people told you so on race change PTS. ZOS are now punishing players for a mistake they (ZOS) made.
Whatever. I'm unaffected. If you wanna know, TRISTAT food is heavily overloaded.

Interesting point.

Tri-Stat Food like Longfin Pasty with Melon Sauce gives these stats:
- 4252 Max Health
- 3912 Max Magicka
- 3912 Max Stamina

If I calculate the total effectiveness by the same method as my initial post it shows 1376, way higher than other foods. I think this is ok for tri stat though. Most tri stat bonuses in the game follow the “buy 2 get 1 free” rule (such as Prismatic armor glyphs).

Azyle1 · April 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Oh, look. Having the utility of sustain (Breton) and still be top DPS can cause balancing problems. I told you so.
It's only Orc health that's overperforming, and people told you so on race change PTS. ZOS are now punishing players for a mistake they (ZOS) made.
Whatever. I'm unaffected. If you wanna know, TRISTAT food is heavily overloaded.

ZOS wouldn't be ZOS if they listened to feedback.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam

Then... just drop down Orc Hp by 250 points or something. Have them match Khajiit. They can keep 2k stam.

Lord-Otto · April 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Oh, look. Having the utility of sustain (Breton) and still be top DPS can cause balancing problems. I told you so.
It's only Orc health that's overperforming, and people told you so on race change PTS. ZOS are now punishing players for a mistake they (ZOS) made.
Whatever. I'm unaffected. If you wanna know, TRISTAT food is heavily overloaded.

ZOS wouldn't be ZOS if they listened to feedback.

Or to the wrong feedback.

Wolfahm · April 2019

@WrathOfInnos

So all the food was buffed on PTS so that is a bit incorrect .. Lava foot for ex is 5~K + 511 reco .. the tri stats are 4k+~ across the board on pts .. unsure if tool tip change or if the CP scale was off before on live.

WrathOfInnos · April 2019

Wolfahm wrote: »

So all the food was buffed on PTS you guys need to test better .. Lava foot for ex is 5~K + 511 reco .. the tri stats are 4k+~ across the board on pts .. unsure if tool tip change or if the CP scale was off before on live.

@Wolfahm There are strange things going on with food on PTS. The tooltip values appear buffed, but the stats you get when consuming them are lower.

For example, on live with Clockwork Citrus I have 16.0k health. The 15% reduction in the patch notes should bring this to about 15.3k health. With the new tooltip for this food on PTS my health would be 15.8k. On PTS currently my health is 15.4k. Needs more testing for sure, but none of these numbers are making sense.

My initial post was intended to demonstrate that regen foods were not overperforming compared to bistat, and did not need the 12-15% reduction in stats outlined in the patch notes. But now it’s more of an investigation of what undocumented changes we’re actually seeing on PTS that affected many foods outside the few mentioned in the notes.

Wolfahm · April 2019

ya like i said i have no idea was just tossing in the screen cap have not tested much this round.

usmcjdking · April 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

My initial post was intended to demonstrate that regen foods were not overperforming compared to bistat, and did not need the 12-15% reduction in stats outlined in the patch notes. But now it’s more of an investigation of what undocumented changes we’re actually seeing on PTS that affected many foods outside the few mentioned in the notes.

That's operating under the assumption that max stat and regeneration are statistically equal - which they are not. For overall value in creating and managing sets/races, they can be used as a baseline - but their performance function is simply not the same. Resource return/reduction/regeneration absolutely has a value of 1 on an efficacy plateau function - if your sustain is greater than your expenditures then any point more is simply lost to the wind. You effectively get nothing out of resource return greater than your expenditures. Stats such as crit/max stat/chd/damage only ever approaches 1. With the exception of crit, none of these can ever reach an efficacy of 1 because there is simply no cap to their performance therefore lending you to an efficacy curve.

The efficacy curve is not the same and should not be treated the same, especially with how easy it is to reach 1 when it comes to resource management efficacy.

jypcy · April 2019

usmcjdking wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

My initial post was intended to demonstrate that regen foods were not overperforming compared to bistat, and did not need the 12-15% reduction in stats outlined in the patch notes. But now it’s more of an investigation of what undocumented changes we’re actually seeing on PTS that affected many foods outside the few mentioned in the notes.

That's operating under the assumption that max stat and regeneration are statistically equal - which they are not. For overall value in creating and managing sets/races, they can be used as a baseline - but their performance function is simply not the same. Resource return/reduction/regeneration absolutely has a value of 1 on an efficacy plateau function - if your sustain is greater than your expenditures then any point more is simply lost to the wind. You effectively get nothing out of resource return greater than your expenditures. Stats such as crit/max stat/chd/damage only ever approaches 1. With the exception of crit, none of these can ever reach an efficacy of 1 because there is simply no cap to their performance therefore lending you to an efficacy curve.

The efficacy curve is not the same and should not be treated the same, especially with how easy it is to reach 1 when it comes to resource management efficacy.

Would be interested in more math, but if I understand correctly, Innos’ original calculations (or Zos’, in some respects) accounts for this concept. E.g., Innos isn’t saying that 1 extra max stat is effectively equivalent to 1 extra recovery stat, because I agree with you that that’s simply not true. Rather, Zos has seemingly already determined how many max stat points are effectively equivalent to x number of recovery stat points based on existing Mundus Stone values and armor set bonuses. Innos just used those existing calculations (1 recovery is effectively equivalent to 8.5 max stats or 9.4 health) and applied them to food bonuses.

Whether Zos’ calculations are correct in practice is another matter, but I think it’s fair to expect the formula they’ve chosen to go with to be consistent.

WrathOfInnos · April 2019

usmcjdking wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

My initial post was intended to demonstrate that regen foods were not overperforming compared to bistat, and did not need the 12-15% reduction in stats outlined in the patch notes. But now it’s more of an investigation of what undocumented changes we’re actually seeing on PTS that affected many foods outside the few mentioned in the notes.

That's operating under the assumption that max stat and regeneration are statistically equal - which they are not. For overall value in creating and managing sets/races, they can be used as a baseline - but their performance function is simply not the same. Resource return/reduction/regeneration absolutely has a value of 1 on an efficacy plateau function - if your sustain is greater than your expenditures then any point more is simply lost to the wind. You effectively get nothing out of resource return greater than your expenditures. Stats such as crit/max stat/chd/damage only ever approaches 1. With the exception of crit, none of these can ever reach an efficacy of 1 because there is simply no cap to their performance therefore lending you to an efficacy curve.

The efficacy curve is not the same and should not be treated the same, especially with how easy it is to reach 1 when it comes to resource management efficacy.

True, which means that regen food is inherently situational, and even more reason that it should be powerful in that niche (builds that cannot otherwise sustain).

I suppose the same could be said for health. If 15k Health is enough for a build, then the additional health from bistat food offers no benefit. Realistically though, more health will never be completely useless, where more regen can be (or even deadly if fighting the Serpent in vSO, haha).

Additional Magicka and Stamina is always useful.

usmcjdking · April 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

My initial post was intended to demonstrate that regen foods were not overperforming compared to bistat, and did not need the 12-15% reduction in stats outlined in the patch notes. But now it’s more of an investigation of what undocumented changes we’re actually seeing on PTS that affected many foods outside the few mentioned in the notes.

That's operating under the assumption that max stat and regeneration are statistically equal - which they are not. For overall value in creating and managing sets/races, they can be used as a baseline - but their performance function is simply not the same. Resource return/reduction/regeneration absolutely has a value of 1 on an efficacy plateau function - if your sustain is greater than your expenditures then any point more is simply lost to the wind. You effectively get nothing out of resource return greater than your expenditures. Stats such as crit/max stat/chd/damage only ever approaches 1. With the exception of crit, none of these can ever reach an efficacy of 1 because there is simply no cap to their performance therefore lending you to an efficacy curve.

The efficacy curve is not the same and should not be treated the same, especially with how easy it is to reach 1 when it comes to resource management efficacy.

True, which means that regen food is inherently situational, and even more reason that it should be powerful in that niche (builds that cannot otherwise sustain).

I suppose the same could be said for health. If 15k Health is enough for a build, then the additional health from bistat food offers no benefit. Realistically though, more health will never be completely useless, where more regen can be (or even deadly if fighting the Serpent in vSO, haha).

Additional Magicka and Stamina is always useful.

I actually somewhat agree with your premise even though it was only somewhat implied. Making up for lost stat density is really, really hard in endgame PVE - even from a casual perspective like myself with almost no self-restricted build limitations. Made especially difficult with the magicka races who have no HP lines outside of the lackluster PVE DPS of Argonian. Making up for regen however, is really, really easy. Why? They are more accessible.

I suggest retaining the stat density, but dropping the regeneration values to 202 (222 HRec). Sure there might be some significant heeming and hawing on the forums about that, but most of that would just be ambient noise. A Dunmer, Atlmer or Orc being forced into a recovery glyph to achieve a perfect LA rotation, or utilize a heavy attack every other rotation would have much better balance implications that losing 4k worth of total stats.

Nerf direction good. Nerfed wrong aspect IMO. Good discussion @WrathOfInnos

ruikkarikun · April 2019

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

[snip]

HOW WAS LAST CAMPAGIN? ENJOYED?

[edited to remove quote]

Olupajmibanan · April 2019

usmcjdking wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

My initial post was intended to demonstrate that regen foods were not overperforming compared to bistat, and did not need the 12-15% reduction in stats outlined in the patch notes. But now it’s more of an investigation of what undocumented changes we’re actually seeing on PTS that affected many foods outside the few mentioned in the notes.

That's operating under the assumption that max stat and regeneration are statistically equal - which they are not. For overall value in creating and managing sets/races, they can be used as a baseline - but their performance function is simply not the same. Resource return/reduction/regeneration absolutely has a value of 1 on an efficacy plateau function - if your sustain is greater than your expenditures then any point more is simply lost to the wind. You effectively get nothing out of resource return greater than your expenditures. Stats such as crit/max stat/chd/damage only ever approaches 1. With the exception of crit, none of these can ever reach an efficacy of 1 because there is simply no cap to their performance therefore lending you to an efficacy curve.

The efficacy curve is not the same and should not be treated the same, especially with how easy it is to reach 1 when it comes to resource management efficacy.

True, which means that regen food is inherently situational, and even more reason that it should be powerful in that niche (builds that cannot otherwise sustain).

I suppose the same could be said for health. If 15k Health is enough for a build, then the additional health from bistat food offers no benefit. Realistically though, more health will never be completely useless, where more regen can be (or even deadly if fighting the Serpent in vSO, haha).

Additional Magicka and Stamina is always useful.

I actually somewhat agree with your premise even though it was only somewhat implied. Making up for lost stat density is really, really hard in endgame PVE - even from a casual perspective like myself with almost no self-restricted build limitations. Made especially difficult with the magicka races who have no HP lines outside of the lackluster PVE DPS of Argonian. Making up for regen however, is really, really easy. Why? They are more accessible.

I suggest retaining the stat density, but dropping the regeneration values to 202 (222 HRec). Sure there might be some significant heeming and hawing on the forums about that, but most of that would just be ambient noise. A Dunmer, Atlmer or Orc being forced into a recovery glyph to achieve a perfect LA rotation, or utilize a heavy attack every other rotation would have much better balance implications that losing 4k worth of total stats.

Nerf direction good. Nerfed wrong aspect IMO. Good discussion @WrathOfInnos

I don't like wearing a tinfoil hat, but I was trying some bow/bow Necromancer dps and noticed that my hp was over 18k on Orc with Dubious Camoran Throne. That Necro +2k health class passive is sweet and makes Necro not suffering from food nerfs (or even Orc health nerf if it comes).

Call me whatever you want, but some nerfs really seem to promote Necromancer sales.

LiquidPony · April 2019

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

My initial post was intended to demonstrate that regen foods were not overperforming compared to bistat, and did not need the 12-15% reduction in stats outlined in the patch notes. But now it’s more of an investigation of what undocumented changes we’re actually seeing on PTS that affected many foods outside the few mentioned in the notes.

That's operating under the assumption that max stat and regeneration are statistically equal - which they are not. For overall value in creating and managing sets/races, they can be used as a baseline - but their performance function is simply not the same. Resource return/reduction/regeneration absolutely has a value of 1 on an efficacy plateau function - if your sustain is greater than your expenditures then any point more is simply lost to the wind. You effectively get nothing out of resource return greater than your expenditures. Stats such as crit/max stat/chd/damage only ever approaches 1. With the exception of crit, none of these can ever reach an efficacy of 1 because there is simply no cap to their performance therefore lending you to an efficacy curve.

The efficacy curve is not the same and should not be treated the same, especially with how easy it is to reach 1 when it comes to resource management efficacy.

True, which means that regen food is inherently situational, and even more reason that it should be powerful in that niche (builds that cannot otherwise sustain).

I suppose the same could be said for health. If 15k Health is enough for a build, then the additional health from bistat food offers no benefit. Realistically though, more health will never be completely useless, where more regen can be (or even deadly if fighting the Serpent in vSO, haha).

Additional Magicka and Stamina is always useful.

I actually somewhat agree with your premise even though it was only somewhat implied. Making up for lost stat density is really, really hard in endgame PVE - even from a casual perspective like myself with almost no self-restricted build limitations. Made especially difficult with the magicka races who have no HP lines outside of the lackluster PVE DPS of Argonian. Making up for regen however, is really, really easy. Why? They are more accessible.

I suggest retaining the stat density, but dropping the regeneration values to 202 (222 HRec). Sure there might be some significant heeming and hawing on the forums about that, but most of that would just be ambient noise. A Dunmer, Atlmer or Orc being forced into a recovery glyph to achieve a perfect LA rotation, or utilize a heavy attack every other rotation would have much better balance implications that losing 4k worth of total stats.

Nerf direction good. Nerfed wrong aspect IMO. Good discussion @WrathOfInnos

I don't like wearing a tinfoil hat, but I was trying some bow/bow Necromancer dps and noticed that my hp was over 18k on Orc with Dubious Camoran Throne. That Necro +2k health class passive is sweet and makes Necro not suffering from food nerfs (or even Orc health nerf if it comes).

Call me whatever you want, but some nerfs really seem to promote Necromancer sales.

I ran an Orc stam necromancer in Sunspire with Lavafoot food on Tuesday.

The health is probably a bit too low for most people but with Ebon and Minor Toughness I was over 17k health.

twing1_ · April 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Personally I don’t think complete equalization is the right approach though. I believe that stats should scale up slightly according to the color quality of the consumable, maybe 0% white, 5% green, 10% blue, 15% purple, 20% gold. Maybe the values in my previous list could be the gold standard to prevent anything becoming overpowered, and blue variants would be ~10% lower than that for example.

I also think that the stats should scale up slightly for each additional bonus added. The primary resource is always going to be the most useful to a build, and adding additional (less useful, but varied) resources should allow the total dimmed value to be higher. So for example quad-stat bonuses should not be half of bistat, they should be maybe 10% better than half (to account for the diminishing usefulness of hybrid resources). Although this could happen automatically if my previous paragraph comes true, since typically green is single stat, blue is bistat, purple is tri-stat, and gold is quad-stat.

This makes so much sense. Everything should be standardized. Every food of a particular quality should offer the same number of set bonuses regardless of the type of bonus (1096 max stam/mag 1206 health, or 129 recovery all = 1 set bonus) and the number of set bonuses should be distributed evenly between each of the food's effects. Furthermore, as the quality of food increases, so should the number of total set bonuses offered.

Right now green food grants the equivalent of ~5.5 set bonuses. Blue food ~9 set bonuses. Purple food (with the exception of recovery foods) ~11.2 set bonuses. Gold foods right now strictly involve recovery, which appears to be highly inconsistent with the established standard so I feel it's pointless to list their set bonuses here.

Obviously, there are exceptions because these things aren't yet standardized. But if it were up to me, I would have white food give 6 set bonuses, green give 7, blue give 8, purple give 9, and gold give 12 (extra set bonuses on account of it's expensiveness, rarity, and max quality level). These would be consistent accross all set bonuses (ex/ max 1096 max mag/stam = 1206 max health = 129 recovery).

Apparently ZOS likes whole numbers (evidenced by their recent adjustments to ability durations) so they should be on board adopting this. The values, to put it into perspective with current foods, would look something like this:

White: 6576 mag/stam OR 7236 health OR 774 recovery.

Green: 7672 max stam/mag OR 903 stam/mag recovery OR 8442 max health

Blue: 4384 stam/mag and 4824 health OR 4384 stam/mag and 516 recovery

Purple: 3618 health, 3288 stam and 3288 mag OR 3618 health, 3288 stam/mag, and 387 recovery

Gold: 3618 health, 3288 stam/mag, 387 recovery and 387 health recovery

Note that this scheme allows gold food to be the exact value of purple food, plus one additional effect. It also considerably bridges the gap between the different quality of foods. Additionally, it allows for the devs to easily add new foods into the game by copy pasting stat bonuses into this formula.

Thanks for posting about this. I was going to post about this in great detail one of these days, but you beat me to it. As evidenced in the earlier part of my comment, I don't think bumping up the number set bonuses offered just for having additional effects is necessary.

Edit: I'll probably still post about this a bit later. The more attention this gets the better.

usmcjdking · April 2019

They would need to introduce Gold Bistat food, then.

Juhasow · April 2019

What a bunch of delusion in that thread lol. very reasonable for OP to take all buffs of blue food and compare it to 3/4 buffs of gold food because certain part of it "is useless in PvE". Later on blaming the class reps for that change wtf. Now I am not suprised that last year aluminum stocks went up by a lot.

Juhasow · April 2019

usmcjdking wrote: »

They would need to introduce Gold Bistat food, then.

It's called double bloody mara

Sheuib · April 2019

Masel wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

As gold food it should do more and be worth it's very expensive value in game. It will also promote people take that food passive for longer duration.

Exactly. But some class (Masel e.g.) reps were pushing this changes. FFS this is how it ends when devs are listening to narrow group of players - they have their interest in this nerf. How brainless is to make golden food weaker then a blue one, when crafting cost is 100x times higher. Gold food should have been buffed to double the duration! Not being nerfed -_-

Once again. Not my idea, not done because I told them to do so.

That isnt how the program works at all. It's not "we present a suggestion, they do it". It's "we give them pain points, they do something they think alleviates them". Then we give feedback based on what they do, and they either adjust things based on it or ignore it.

As a matter of fact, I told them to change orc (reduce health or stamina). I told them that players think the altmer stam passive is weird, I told them that bosmers want their stealth back and gave them reasoning why it'd be good to listen to that feedback. They decided not to and changed foods instead. And I can, as I said in the other thread, understand why they did it: we got the feedback from a lot of players that damage race+sustain food was the ultimately best option for both aspects of the game. I dont know why they haven't touched orc again even though it was a quite clearly superior choice on stamina. They never responded to that question.

And once again, noone here mentions the added health recovery on gold sustain food. The point that health recovery is useless is another discussion that we can talk about, but it has to be taken into consideration.

But you can go scapegoat us all you like.id be interested in the personal agenda I'd be pushing here though. How would nerfing these foods cater to me?

The altmer Stam passive is great for pvp.

Sheuib · April 2019

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Oh, look. Having the utility of sustain (Breton) and still be top DPS can cause balancing problems. I told you so.
It's only Orc health that's overperforming, and people told you so on race change PTS. ZOS are now punishing players for a mistake they (ZOS) made.
Whatever. I'm unaffected. If you wanna know, TRISTAT food is heavily overloaded.

Please don’t get my tristat food nerfed. It’s basically a necessity for Magicka players in PvP.

WrathOfInnos · April 2019

Sheuib wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Oh, look. Having the utility of sustain (Breton) and still be top DPS can cause balancing problems. I told you so.
It's only Orc health that's overperforming, and people told you so on race change PTS. ZOS are now punishing players for a mistake they (ZOS) made.
Whatever. I'm unaffected. If you wanna know, TRISTAT food is heavily overloaded.

Please don’t get my tristat food nerfed. It’s basically a necessity for Magicka players in PvP.

Yeah, tristat Health/Stam/Mag seems to be an exception with game balancing. It is often about 50% stronger in total magnitude than getting a single resource. As it should be since spreading out into hybrid stats has some big disadvantages for damage and healing output.

Lord-Otto · April 2019

Sheuib wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Oh, look. Having the utility of sustain (Breton) and still be top DPS can cause balancing problems. I told you so.
It's only Orc health that's overperforming, and people told you so on race change PTS. ZOS are now punishing players for a mistake they (ZOS) made.
Whatever. I'm unaffected. If you wanna know, TRISTAT food is heavily overloaded.

Please don’t get my tristat food nerfed. It’s basically a necessity for Magicka players in PvP.

That or triglyphs, but I think food is much more efficient. I'm using it, too. Don't think this'll get nerfed, the changes look rather PvE-related to me.

WrathOfInnos · April 2019

Updated first post with latest values from PTS 5.0.1.

twing1_ · April 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Updated first post with latest values from PTS 5.0.1.

Accross the board, it still appears that recovery is being valued higher in food buffs than it is in item set bonuses.

All food buffs should be constructed using the preexisting balance between item set bonuses that the rest of the game is built around. Otherwise, food buffs will be inherently imbalanced.

ZOS needs to view 129 recovery = 1096 stam/mag = 1206 health, regardless of where the bonus comes from, be it food or item set bonuses. I believe an entire food buff balance pass is required.

WrathOfInnos · April 2019

Balance opinions aside, there is one thing that seems to have a value inconsistent with similar foods/drinks.

Ghastly Eyebowl on PTS gives:
- 4760 Max Magicka
- 476 Magicka Recovery

While it seems it should give:
- 5117 Max Magicka (based on Lava Foot, Artaeum Pickled Fish, and Bloody Mara)
- 511 Magicka Recovery (based on Lava Foot, Red Frothgar)

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam
Not sure who would be able to comment and/or fix this.

Balance opinions included: Clockwork Citrus, Witchmothers Brew, Artaeum Takeaway, and Dubious Camoran should give more total stats that bistat because they are split between more pools. Obviously they should give less of any one individual stat.

WrathOfInnos · April 2019

Looking at the latest iteration of foods on PTS I want to slightly revise my analysis and make a recommendation on new values.

By comparing Bloody Mara and Artaeum Pickled Fish (purple and gold bistat foods) we can see there is not intended to be any difference in stat values from recipe quality. The apparent difference between base game blue bistat recipes seems to be driven by the fact that they are CP150 while the newer recipes scale to player level up to CP160 (this part is a guess, but I don’t want to dwell to much on the inconsistencies of old foods vs new foods when new seem to have more predictable stats).

By comparing various foods we can get a better idea of how various stats are actually balanced against each other. Notice that these are slightly different from the balancing on sets and Mundus Stones (that my first post used for comparisons). Looking at Red Frothgar vs Bloody Mara (both bistat with one health bonus) tells us that 5117 Max Magicka or Stamina equals 511 Magicka or Stamina Recovery, or 1 recovery = 10 Magicka or Stamina. Comparing Lava Foot vs Red Frothgar (both bistat with one recovery bonus) tells us that 5652 max health equals 5117 Magicka or Stamina, or 10 Magicka or stamina = 11 health (same as everywhere else in the game).

So we can say now, that for food balancing:
1 Magicka Recovery = 1 Stamina Recovery = 10 Max Magicka = 10 Max Stamina = 11 Max Health

By this system, several bistat foods all give an equivalent of about 1025 recovery.

Witchmothers and Dubious in their current state 5.0.1 only give a total of 882. They are 14% weaker than similar bistat foods, despite being spread out across more stats. This needs to be increased to at least the same 1025, which could be made by something like this:
- 315 Mag or Stam Recovery
- 3550 Max Mag or Stam
- 3905 Max Health

The similar gold foods that add health recovery should not be any weaker than these tri-stat options. It would possibly be ok if all they added was the Health Recovery (no increases to primary resource recovery, max resource, or health). Therefore Clockwork Citrus Filet and Artaeum Takeaway Broth would need to be at least:
- 315 Mag or Stam Recovery
- 315 Health Recovery
- 3550 Max Magicka or Stamina
- 3905 Max Health

I’m not actually sure that the health recovery (filling about half your health bar per minute, slower if you are a vampire) would justify the additional cost of using these quad-stat gold foods over all of the other options available, but if they were increased even slightly to 3650 Max Resource and 4000 Max Health they would be used in a competitive environment (PVE or PVP).

MartiniDaniels · April 2019

Yep, instead on nerfing recovery food they actually need to slightly buff it to match bloody mara/lava foot. Same goes for all "cp150" food.

IonicKai · May 2019

I take it based on lack of mention in the last couple patch notes that this reduced state of food buff is here to stay which pretty harshly devalues these foods?