ESO Logs: Invasive or Useful?

xMovingTarget · April 2019

Useful

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Now we start knit picking, arnt we?

You really have it all, haven't you ?
The arrogance, the disrespect, the achievements, the "L2P" attitude, the judgemental vocabulary, the superiority, the assumptions, etc... everything.

No disrespect at all. You guys are just like flatearthers. All evidence is there, yet people disregard them or twist them to fit their agenda.

The logs will change nothing for average gamer Joe. And everywhere you create an account, you have to give your email address. Nobody complains.

But when a video game puts in combat logs, you are in arms for no reason.

Because let's be honest, privacy is an excuse to keep you getting carried by 11 or 3 other people and slowing down their progress.
That is all it is. And it's disgusting. If you do 5k dps in my trial, die every trash pull, you will get kicked. With or without log. And you won't get invited again. It's simple. Why would 1 individuals hurting feelings affect 11 others. This is not how life works.
You want to go raiding, get gear and learn your character, train on dummies etc. It is simple. If you can't or don't want because apperantly you are already perfect player and everyone else is just an elitist, you can join normal pug trials. Nobody in those cares about any logs.

These logs will have 0 impact on you. Unless you are in a endgame leaderboard trial guild. And in that case, you already have the gear and skill figured out anyways.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2019

Invasive

NupidStoob wrote: »

You say yourself you don't want anyone to look over your shoulder. CMX is exactly that. .../... Stop blowing things out of proportion and making an issue out of something that really isn't one.

I've answered most of your "questions" already so I won't repeat myself, except for one thing : I think CMX has already done an awful lot of damage in the community and just because CMX is there doesn't mean that yet another layer of shoulder watching tool is harmless.

I hope people realize that, by describing how CMX is already that bad, you're not reassuring people at all about the encounter logger.

menathradiel · April 2019

Invasive

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

menathradiel wrote: »

Your username is personal data, and this information is being given to the third party.

Are you sure ? I remember Kirah mentioning only character names... but if people are organized in guilds similar to the guilds ingame, they'll probably collect @playerID too.
Anyone can clarify ? Kirah maybe ?

Kihra wrote: »

In-game account names are treated as private data by my site and are not revealed to anyone...

From the Encounter Logging thread. It's clear from this that username information is being given, which is why this would fall within the scope of third party rules under GDPR.

witchdoctor · April 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

I guess the argument against this is that technically giving your email isn't necessary to be anonymous. Technically, all you have to do is check a box in game and you'll be anonymous, and never have anything to do with the 3rd-party website.

That is exactly the argument.

Assuming game info isn't 'personal information,' the GDPR is arguably then not a factor.

muh · April 2019

Useful

Arciris wrote: »

First, thank you for providing the information that confirms our concerns.

You're welcome, even though it doesn't really confirm your concerns. Unless your concern was that ZOS gets hacked so they can get a list of characters that belong to your user id that they can trace back to your real identity to look up which characters on esologs belong to you and harass you based on that combat data.

Arciris wrote: »

Why the concern about personal data?
Because to Opt Out/make characters anonymous, we have to send an e-mail to a Third Party website that we didn't previously and knowingly agreed to use.
It happens that, for professional reasons, my e-mail has my full personal name on it. It also happens that, for security reasons, my e-mail is linked to my personal mobile phone number.
So, I find myself to have to provide personal data (as per the part I bolded out) to a Third Party website, just to Opt Out.

This seems more like a convenient excuse to cry foul. Creating a secondary email address for your general gaming needs is a pretty good idea to increase your security on the internet in general. For purposes like claiming a character on say esologs.com you're probably fine to just use a throwaway like 10minutemail.com

Maybe I missed something, but it did sound like the opt-out/in is done ingame within ESO itself. The option to create an account and claim characters, or to email them to set your characters anonymous is available if you want to get them "removed" (as in anonymized) after they have been uploaded there.

Arciris wrote: »

Not to mention that your "pseudonymised" self can still be bullied, harassed or simply trolled, And even if it is just in the "virtual" world, the psychological consequences are very real for some people

True, but the places you can get attacked are fairly limited already, e.g. only in-game. And there you have options to report and block people.

Also, some people really overestimate how many and who is using a website like that. The endgame community is already fairly small, people who use a tool like that are a subset of this subset of the playerbase. And what information do you get from it? That someone only does light attacks in a veteran dungeon or normal trial PUG?
What do you think people will do with this? Scour hundreds of logs for character names of people that share their character name, to then hunt down their user ID to then harass them or out them publicly? And who do you think even cares about that?

Do you think people will register on the website, activate logging for every dungeon / trial PUG they do to win the lottery and find a light attack spammer to then shame them all over social media? Don't you think it's much easier to just hit the instant replay button of your graphics card driver suite, upload it to youtube and share that? This also includes their user ID usually, so would be much more effective in starting a hate train.

Arciris wrote: »

If complete Opt Out is set by default, I would have no issue changing my vote to "useful" and would even welcome such a tool.

You can't have comprehensive (as in useful) combat logging without logging everything. A lot of actions affect more than just the player itself. Imagine a PUG where the only person applying Major Fracture / Breach to enemies did opt out of this. No where in the log would be visible that the enemy got Major Fracture / Breach, but all damage numbers of all other people are higher because of it. Pretty much everything you do affects everyone in your group in one way or another.

Cheezits94 · April 2019

Useful

Hallothiel wrote: »

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Wow. As someone who ACTUALLY works with the implementation of GDPR regulations and compliance for the company where I am hired, this whole discussion about "personal data" makes makes me cringe so hard.

You guys know nothing.
Your toon's elemental drain uptime is not considered personal data and won't be by any judge in the world.

But having to email a third party website to ask them to remove your data does mean you have to share personal information unnecessarily.

And if you are working with implementation of GDPR then you should know that Consent should never never be assumed - people have to chose to opt in, not opt out.

Law-wise, that doesn't even matter in this case, as there is nothing that is considered personal data being shared in the first place.

Your email address is personal data.

The email address is not shared IN THE FIRST PLACE.
That's what counts law-wise. You decide to share your email adress once you actually decide to send an email.

As I understood it, account names are not shared.
Character names are shared. That is a BIG DIFFERENCE law-wise. It might not look like that, but for a court/judge, it is.

VaranisArano · April 2019

NupidStoob wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Why not have the same uproar with combat metrics since in 4 man content it clearer shows if someone’s DPS is clearer stronger or poorer? That’s real time as well so surely has a greater risk of miss-use? You also have no option to even opt out to any collecting of that data.

Oh come on, please read the thread... that's been answered a dozen times already...

You say yourself you don't want anyone to look over your shoulder. CMX is exactly that. This tool isn't real time. If you expect people to upload a log after every single encounter in a dungeon to ridicule you you are being silly. If someone wanted to be an ass then they don't need this tool. They don't even need CMX. They can just talk *** about how they see you play.

Let's imagine the scenario of someone uploading combat logs where you are involved but you opted out of. Nobody except for the group will know its you. Nobody can go on that website and search your name and find anything about you either. The website doesn't put the puzzle together for others to know which anonymous person you are.

More data is collected about you here in the forums than these combat logs ever will. Forums being way more dangerous from a data collection point of view than any of your dps parses, because your opinions could be used to discredit you and make you look bad in real life. Yet you keep posting over and over and it doesn't seem to bother you. Play any game with the least bit of a competitive aspect and more data will be collected about you even without your consent. Just look at a game like league of legends, there are 20+ sites that let me look a the complete stats and match history as well as analysis of someones account. When they played, who they played with, exactly how they performed etc etc. It's absolutely normal in games nowadays and nobody cares. Stop blowing things out of proportion and making an issue out of something that really isn't one.

Hmmm...

I have a few issues with the arguments here.

For CMX, its not exactly the same type of looking over one's shoulder as ESO Logs, but ultimately I think the experience of an anonymous ESO Log player will be very similar.

CMX allows players to see their portion of the group DPS, and then to extrapolate from that what portion the other players are contributing. CMX does not give other players access to their teammates' DPS parse without the teammate sharing that number. In the case of everyone but one player sharing their CMX parse thus allow the group to figure out the final player's contribution, this is identical to the case of one anonymous member in the ESO Log. The identity and contribution can be figured out in both cases. The main difference between them is that ESO Logs actually gives the exact numbers, rather than requiring extrapolation - except that CMX is real time and ESO Logs is after the event so ZOS believes this won't be a problem.

You are correct about how anonymity works for ESO Logs. That's why I argue its important that anonymity be the default. Because as it currently is set up, your consent to let your info be searched and find out all the public logs with your character name in them is assumed.

For the forums, participation is voluntary. Our consent to all that tracking is not assumed. We have to jump through hoops to join and to post. As it is set up right now, our consent to have our character names tracked with combat data is assumed.

Moreover, I find the "You aren't worried about ALL data collection, so therefore you can't possibly worry about how THIS form of data collection might impact your experience in THIS game" argument to be rather disingenuous.

Finally, you say "Play any game with the least bit of a competitive aspect and more data will be collected about you even without your consent. Just look at a game like league of legends, there are 20+ sites that let me look a the complete stats and match history as well as analysis of someones account. When they played, who they played with, exactly how they performed etc etc. It's absolutely normal in games nowadays and nobody cares. Stop blowing things out of proportion and making an issue out of something that really isn't one."

This is 100% my personal opinion here. I'll be honest, I'm looking at that like "There's a reason I don't play those types of games. That...actually doesn't look like something I want in my ESO experience."

Maybe some people like that sort of thing for ESO? I don't, and that's exactly why I want anonymity to be the default, so no one has to have their data collected for stats, run history, or anything else unless they explicitly consent to it.

Svenja · April 2019

Useful

Where does it even say it shares my email adress tho?
As I udnerstand it, my mail adress doesn't come into play until I decide to contact the site owner with my email address or to sign up for the whole too, not before. So "email addresses are personal data" is not an argument here, no?
The only shared data is the character name.
As I have chars on EU whose names are taken by other players on NA, I am not even sure if you can claim that a character name can be linked to your account without fail, if the site doesn#t show what server you play on.

Tho, at this point I agree that it should be set to anonymous by default, so that we don't have this tedious discussion for the remaining years of ESO. xD

Hallothiel · April 2019

Invasive

xMovingTarget wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Now we start knit picking, arnt we?

You really have it all, haven't you ?
The arrogance, the disrespect, the achievements, the "L2P" attitude, the judgemental vocabulary, the superiority, the assumptions, etc... everything.

No disrespect at all. You guys are just like flatearthers. All evidence is there, yet people disregard them or twist them to fit their agenda.

The logs will change nothing for average gamer Joe. And everywhere you create an account, you have to give your email address. Nobody complains.

But when a video game puts in combat logs, you are in arms for no reason.

Because let's be honest, privacy is an excuse to keep you getting carried by 11 or 3 other people and slowing down their progress.
That is all it is. And it's disgusting. If you do 5k dps in my trial, die every trash pull, you will get kicked. With or without log. And you won't get invited again. It's simple. Why would 1 individuals hurting feelings affect 11 others. This is not how life works.
You want to go raiding, get gear and learn your character, train on dummies etc. It is simple. If you can't or don't want because apperantly you are already perfect player and everyone else is just an elitist, you can join normal pug trials. Nobody in those cares about any logs.

These logs will have 0 impact on you. Unless you are in a endgame leaderboard trial guild. And in that case, you already have the gear and skill figured out anyways.

Going to ignore the rudeness and explain my concerns.

This is being implemented with opt-in as default. I get no choice but if I do not want to do this I have to share personal data with a third party site.

And just to say I do vet trials etc with my guild in the PS4. We manage to progress nicely without the need for combat metrics or logs like this - how? We talk & discuss it & work out what to do better. Much more inclusive and helpful to becoming a better player.

So it is about privacy & nothing about being carried.

*forgot to add - if I sign up to something & give my email address, then I have agreed to do that - which is not the case here. I am not being given the choice.

Cheezits94 · April 2019

Useful

Hallothiel wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Now we start knit picking, arnt we?

You really have it all, haven't you ?
The arrogance, the disrespect, the achievements, the "L2P" attitude, the judgemental vocabulary, the superiority, the assumptions, etc... everything.

No disrespect at all. You guys are just like flatearthers. All evidence is there, yet people disregard them or twist them to fit their agenda.

The logs will change nothing for average gamer Joe. And everywhere you create an account, you have to give your email address. Nobody complains.

But when a video game puts in combat logs, you are in arms for no reason.

Because let's be honest, privacy is an excuse to keep you getting carried by 11 or 3 other people and slowing down their progress.
That is all it is. And it's disgusting. If you do 5k dps in my trial, die every trash pull, you will get kicked. With or without log. And you won't get invited again. It's simple. Why would 1 individuals hurting feelings affect 11 others. This is not how life works.
You want to go raiding, get gear and learn your character, train on dummies etc. It is simple. If you can't or don't want because apperantly you are already perfect player and everyone else is just an elitist, you can join normal pug trials. Nobody in those cares about any logs.

These logs will have 0 impact on you. Unless you are in a endgame leaderboard trial guild. And in that case, you already have the gear and skill figured out anyways.

Going to ignore the rudeness and explain my concerns.

This is being implemented with opt-in as default. I get no choice but if I do not want to do this I have to share personal data with a third party site.

And just to say I do vet trials etc with my guild in the PS4. We manage to progress nicely without the need for combat metrics or logs like this - how? We talk & discuss it & work out what to do better. Much more inclusive and helpful to becoming a better player.

So it is about privacy & nothing about being carried.

*forgot to add - if I sign up to something & give my email address, then I have agreed to do that - which is not the case here. I am not being given the choice.

Oh wow. I just realized you are PS4. Didn't see that before.

Nice of you to fight a fight that doesn't even affect you, as the tool is PC only. That's impressive, and confusing at the same time.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2019

Invasive

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Oh wow. I just realized you are PS4. Didn't see that before.
Nice of you to fight a fight that doesn't even affect you, as the tool is PC only. That's impressive, and confusing at the same time.

Just look at the thread. There are several console players debating - on BOTH sides.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · April 2019

Invasive

double edged sword...I mean those who remember eso at launch...what dps? most people didn't know what they were doing...sure now the elitism will be fed...but im quite content about it...I know what im capable of...wouldn't mind showing others what high level means >:3

Hallothiel · April 2019

Invasive

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Now we start knit picking, arnt we?

You really have it all, haven't you ?
The arrogance, the disrespect, the achievements, the "L2P" attitude, the judgemental vocabulary, the superiority, the assumptions, etc... everything.

No disrespect at all. You guys are just like flatearthers. All evidence is there, yet people disregard them or twist them to fit their agenda.

The logs will change nothing for average gamer Joe. And everywhere you create an account, you have to give your email address. Nobody complains.

But when a video game puts in combat logs, you are in arms for no reason.

Because let's be honest, privacy is an excuse to keep you getting carried by 11 or 3 other people and slowing down their progress.
That is all it is. And it's disgusting. If you do 5k dps in my trial, die every trash pull, you will get kicked. With or without log. And you won't get invited again. It's simple. Why would 1 individuals hurting feelings affect 11 others. This is not how life works.
You want to go raiding, get gear and learn your character, train on dummies etc. It is simple. If you can't or don't want because apperantly you are already perfect player and everyone else is just an elitist, you can join normal pug trials. Nobody in those cares about any logs.

These logs will have 0 impact on you. Unless you are in a endgame leaderboard trial guild. And in that case, you already have the gear and skill figured out anyways.

Going to ignore the rudeness and explain my concerns.

This is being implemented with opt-in as default. I get no choice but if I do not want to do this I have to share personal data with a third party site.

And just to say I do vet trials etc with my guild in the PS4. We manage to progress nicely without the need for combat metrics or logs like this - how? We talk & discuss it & work out what to do better. Much more inclusive and helpful to becoming a better player.

So it is about privacy & nothing about being carried.

*forgot to add - if I sign up to something & give my email address, then I have agreed to do that - which is not the case here. I am not being given the choice.

Oh wow. I just realized you are PS4. Didn't see that before.

Nice of you to fight a fight that doesn't even affect you, as the tool is PC only. That's impressive, and confusing at the same time.

My job involved GDPR compliance and good data management so this interests me!

And something similar might come to PS4.

But there is also my personal concerns about how this could be used - I do understand how this could be beneficial, but I also see how it could be used in a nasty unhelpful way that actually goes against what it is trying to achieve I.e. help groups/players improve.

Some posters on this thread have ably demonstrated this mentality.

So weighing it all up I have decided that I do not like the way it is being implemented, especially the enforced opt-in.

Arciris · April 2019

Invasive

@muh

So your fear is that if the tool is not forced on everyone , it then becomes useless?

Isn't the tool only to be used by a very small subset of the already small endgame population who will all most likely be very happy to take all the necessary steps to Opt In for such a tool?

So why does it has to be forced on everyone in the first place?
What is really the issue with an Opt Out by default?

Honestly, I would have a lot less issues - if any - if this was done by ZOS themselves, as I have already agreed to their ToS.
But some Third Party website? Forced upon us (even if we are very generously given the option to remain "anonymous") well, there are concerns to be had.

And as I said in another post: can you 100% guarantee that 100& of the users will never ever abuse this tool to be in anyway disrespectful of anyone?
If you cannot, then you cannot deny the legitimacy of people's concerns. It is as simple as that.

And no, just because there are other ways to abuse people, it doesn't make it right to add another potential one.

muh · April 2019

Useful

@Arciris

So the website has multiple ways to store logs. You can log publicly (what everyone here is freaking out about), only visible to people in your guild or only visible to yourself.

I would want to log just for myself in most trials I join, even PUGs, to have more data on my gameplay. It's meant to help analyze gameplay performance and this includes my performance as much as anyones. It doesn't matter to me if all of the other 11 people are anonymous or not. I don't see any value in wasting my time to look into people that perform not so well if they don't ask me to. If anything I'd look into logs of people that do well to learn from them.

If people get the option to completely opt out of logging, this tool becomes pretty much useless. The guild I'm running trials with isn't as hardcore as you may think. The core team shares the mindset to improve ourselves as much as we can, and to have success together when doing trials. We're running two nights of vet Trial trainings where everyone is welcome if they fulfill some basic requirements, but no prior knowledge of trials or hardmodes are required to participate (first requirement is being part of the guild, though, but that isn't very hard).

Now if a complete opt out would be possible, this could very well render at least 50% of my trial logs absolutely useless. We also will not enforce sharing names within our core group and wouldn't enforce enabling logging at all.

Arciris · April 2019

Invasive

@muh

I'm sorry, you have issues enforcing enabling logging to your guildmates with whom you run trials with, even if they can remain anonymous, but you have no issue enforcing it to the entire ESO gaming population?
I'm failing to understand the logic here.

Kihra · April 2019

Useful

To people bringing up email, if you don't want to share that to opt out of the site you don't have to. You can contact me through forums (either my forums or these forums), Discord, Twitter, etc. When I said all you had to do was send me an email, I meant all you had to do was contact me. You have many avenues for doing so.

muh · April 2019

Useful

@Arciris
Sure if that interpretation floats your boat. It's not about not being able to enforce it, but that we wouldn't.

It's as if you're forgetting everything said before this. Like... the absolute sillyness to even want to opt out completely.
Nothing I've read here, neither from you nor from anyone else has been able to say how

"Anonymous/Character does X damage to Y" or
"Anonymous/Character takes Z damage from Y" or
"Anonymous/Character grants Minor/Major Buff to OtherAnonymous/OtherCharacter"

is breaching your privacy or sharing personal data. It doesn't include your e-mail, it doesn't enable anyone to trace this log back to your real identity. The whole privacy/personal data concern is putting weight into your baseless position.

The choice to contact the owner of esologs or to register an account there and by that sharing personal data is 100% voluntary.

Arciris wrote: »

And no, just because there are other ways to abuse people, it doesn't make it right to add another potential one.

What is the matter with you people? You just said yourself that the only reason you're against it is because it allows people to abuse other people... Like do you leave your house at all? How big of an ego do you have to think the whole world is going to chase down your ESO combat logs all of a sudden? Or how insecure do you have to be to care if someone judges you by your performance in a video game?

If you're so afraid of being bad, it's an easy fix, look up animation canceling, there are good videos that take less than 10 minutes to watch. Try to do at least light weaving when playing at all. Instant and noticable increase in DPS.

Edit:
And since I feel like you have to repeat that every minute here, because the retention span of information is incredibly low here. I don't mind if being anonymous is the default. However a total opt out of logging would make this pretty much useless.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2019

Invasive

muh wrote: »

@Arciris
Sure if that interpretation floats your boat. It's not about not being able to enforce it, but that we wouldn't.

That doesn't answer Arciris' question, though.
If I understand well, you're against a complete opt-out option because you want 100% of your data to be available and reliably readable, either for your personal evaluation, of for your group's evaluation. Therefore the entire game population should be able to be recorded, if only in "anonymous" form.
But if this option of opting out entirely WAS available, you wouldn't be in a position to require from your own guildies to opt-in (if at least in anonymous form) for the purposes of the guild's training, in the guild's core group ?
That's how I understand what you said, and that lacks logic...

As for the rest of your post, too bad it goes once again down the "fear not/don't be silly/who cares" road, with the final usual "L2P/it's EZ". I'd still be interested in the first part of your post, maybe we didn't understand that correctly.

Arciris · April 2019

Invasive

Kihra wrote: »

To people bringing up email, if you don't want to share that to opt out of the site you don't have to. You can contact me through forums (either my forums or these forums), Discord, Twitter, etc. When I said all you had to do was send me an email, I meant all you had to do was contact me. You have many avenues for doing so.

Thank you, this is most reassuring. It would be even more so if that information was present in-game.
I'm not fighting this fight for myself here, I can't help but to have a "white knight" complex and defend and protect others.

@muh

So it all comes back again to that suspicion of people wanting to hide their performance - or lack of it - and wanting to be carried, etc...
What if I told you it isn't about that? What if I told you I don't feel like I have any reason to be ashamed of my own performance? What if I told you I wouldn't mind myself to use this tool to improve myself? (there's always room for improvement)

It has been explained many times how the "anonymous" part is not that anonymous to begin with.

And I am sorry to tell you this, but you have no right to judge anyone that doesn't want to be a part of this and/or think it is just "sillyness".
Just because it doesn't suit your goals, people still have all the right to decide if they want the flow of their actions to be under microscope or not, even if it's "just in a videogame".
Also, if you think that "real identity" is the only issue here, I don't what else I can tell you. For some people, their avatar or pseudonym is a real identity too - we're not in the 20th century anymore... and even then...Maybe you haven't consider that.

So yes, I will continue to think that Opt Out by default is the right thing to do. Even if after that I decide to Opt In for myself, that doesn't mean I want to force other people to do it.

Na0cho · April 2019

Useful

Seems bad players are getting upset that people will know they are bad players.

We already know though.

muh · April 2019

Useful

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

muh wrote: »

@Arciris
Sure if that interpretation floats your boat. It's not about not being able to enforce it, but that we wouldn't.

That doesn't answer Arciris' question, though.

At least we share a common theme in not answering each others questions then, even when I did answer their question.

My position is that I am against a total opt out, because that would make it useless. But if it came to a total opt out, then that is that. We wouldn't enforce it internally if people wouldn't be okay with it, but we would talk about it and make a decision based on that discussion.

Now to the part no one cared to answer so far, what about it right now, with or without character names makes it invasive, especially in context of personal data. I'd like to reiterate that registering on the website itself or contacting Kihra is 100% voluntary. And contacting Kihra means by any means, not necessarily by email.
The decision to share your character name or not is made in game. We have no clue if it is opt-in to be anonymous or opt-in to share character names right now. But it's quite convenient to state opt-in to be anonymous is the default to rally more people.

The reason I went down the "fear not/don't be silly/who cares" road is pretty simple.
What is more toxic, to believe most people are responsible and use the data that logging provides to do good or to believe that everyone only wants to have additional amunition to run around and shame people?
What is a more healhty mindset for life in general? To always be afraid that something bad could happen to you and let this decide how you live your life or to just live your life the best way you can?

The invasive crowd is leaning hard on the being afraid of everything side and is generalizing people that are interested in raiding as toxic elitists. The L2P argument is pretty much the same the other way around, except that getting better at combat in ESO is actually achievable. Shouting toxic elitist at every opportunity is just toxic.

Toxic elitist or elitist is generally misused. Most people pushing scores and / or raiding high end are fairly nice and willing to help people. Be it by providing build guides, rotation guides, doing all the math to find the next best thing. They don't do that out of spite to show you how bad you all are. They do it to help the community in general to get better. Those are the people that dive into the mathematics behind combat systems and explain the way how things actually work.

If you'd care about any of this you'd know that no one has to run meta builds to perform well, if you'd care for any of this you would be able to make informed decisions which set combinations you could use that match the way you want to play the game.

(Toxic) Elitist is usually used to describe people that are loud but have nothing to show for it. They're usually over estimating their own performance and those people are the first to suffer if dps would be shared. There are always ***, but as the forum community is a vocal minority, so are toxic people. But once again it's convenient to blow issues out of proportion to brigade something that enables you to make informed decisions.

Everything in this world can be abused you just need people with enough fantasy to make it an issue.

Ashtaris · April 2019

Useful

Universe wrote: »

This tool will only increase the already high elitism which exists in ESO.
I can imagine many group leaders request the use of this tool as mandatory.

That might be true, however, if you are hoping to join a major raid group like Hodor, you wouldn’t do so unless you had a pretty good feeling you were a decent player anyway.

Idinuse · April 2019

Invasive

NupidStoob wrote: »

So much insecurity and ridiculous fearmongering in this thread.

Will there ever be a case where someone is being a *** about it? Sure. Do these people require this tool to be *** or are they anyways? Not at all. It's painfully obvious when someone in your group is bad, I could turn off my UI and could tell. I can then decide if I am being a *** about or not. I wouldn't need a tool for that at all.

99% of the people worried about it will never really be affected.

For those people that cry "elitism" and are scared that groups won't let you join their vet content: That's not elitism. That is fairness to everyone in the group. There are numerous people on these forums crying that they can't do all content in the game while spamming light attacks and call it elitism when someone suggest that they actually learn how to play. It's incredibly selfish. People who flat out refuse to improve or take advise, but expect people who have spent hours upon hours to get better at this game are the real toxic people. Everybody hates the people in school project groups that do nothing and expect the others to do all the work. This is exactly the same thing. This is a teamgame. If you refuse to add anything to a team you are not worth to be in it.

There are numerous very casual guilds that will never require the use of this tool. Just join them if you want to play with like minded people.

No. I'll tel you what's mind boggling. The hysteria in wanting to force this upon every player in the game. The manic demands that every players actions and key presses be recorded by complete strangers and possibly uploaded to a third party website.

What's so urgently important for you to get from strangers' actions in game? What's it to you? Really? People are reacting to not consenting that total strangers, with the official help of Zos' no less, record anything about them at all and then upload it to a website that can easily be breached, and online IDs and Usernames along with e-mail addresses be stolen and spread online.

Just tell me what you possibly can have against this tool to be an opt in only, and if one in the group is not opt in no data is collected or only your data is collected, so you can upload your file to the website for all it's intent and purposes like leader board and analysis? What possible difference to you is it that all in your leader board score guild needs to actively opt in for this tool to do it's magic on the groups performance for analysis? Well you can keep demanding everyone is opted in or GTFO in your guilds. Just like you do with CMX.

Instead you want the people who oppose this tool start looking for other guilds of like-mined low performers? Is that an easier solution to having the tool be an opt in only, and if someone is not opt in no recording is made? Really? Or is it a huge chore for Progression/Raid Guilds to have their 12 guild members opt in on the content they're about to do?

Just don't force this down the throat of the rest of the 9.950.000 ESO players.

If anyone that sees this as the perfect tool for raids and progression, is against having this tool only be enabled if everyone in the group is opting in - working perfectly and without any less functionality, is out for something else than they are stating here, it would just be fishy not to mention creepy.

VaranisArano · April 2019

Kihra wrote: »

To people bringing up email, if you don't want to share that to opt out of the site you don't have to. You can contact me through forums (either my forums or these forums), Discord, Twitter, etc. When I said all you had to do was send me an email, I meant all you had to do was contact me. You have many avenues for doing so.

@Kihra

That's very good to know! I'm sure that helps the players concerned about giving out their email to a 3rd Party Website in order to regain control of their anonymity.

I still think that all players need to be anonymous by default, but I certainly appreciate you continuing to clarify how players can contact you if they later decide they want to be anonymous after their character names have been included in posted logs.

muh · April 2019

Useful

Arciris wrote: »

So it all comes back again to that suspicion of people wanting to hide their performance - or lack of it - and wanting to be carried, etc...
What if I told you it isn't about that? What if I told you I don't feel like I have any reason to be ashamed of my own performance? What if I told you I wouldn't mind myself to use this tool to improve myself? (there's always room for improvement)

So once again we have the issue with information retention, I've already said in this thread that I don't care how well others perform. That I've a tendency to help new players if they accept help. That I'm not flawless myself and have room for improvement.

Arciris wrote: »

It has been explained many times how the "anonymous" part is not that anonymous to begin with.

And once again, instead of answering my question you're basically saying that someone else said, without being able to tell me what your concerns about personal data are.

Arciris wrote: »

And I am sorry to tell you this, but you have no right to judge anyone that doesn't want to be a part of this and/or think it is just "sillyness".
Just because it doesn't suit your goals, people still have all the right to decide if they want the flow of their actions to be under microscope or not, even if it's "just in a videogame".

So where does your right to judge people come from? Aren't you basically accusing Kihra to not give a sh*t about the security of their website? It has been said multiple times, that even if character names are still transmitted when toggling anonymity that they're not accessible by anyone. That if userids are transmitted that they are not accessible by anyone.

With a complete opt-out of logging feature it gives all the power to you. Who gives you the right to have such power over my gameplay experience?

Arciris wrote: »

Also, if you think that "real identity" is the only issue here, I don't what else I can tell you. For some people, their avatar or pseudonym is a real identity too - we're not in the 20th century anymore... and even then...Maybe you haven't consider that.

If real identity is not the issue here, I fail to understand how a setting to be anonymous is not enough?

Arciris wrote: »

So yes, I will continue to think that Opt Out by default is the right thing to do. Even if after that I decide to Opt In for myself, that doesn't mean I want to force other people to do it.

And once again, as I've mentioned in pretty much every other post I've made here and to you. I'm absolutely fine when opt-in to share character names is the default.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2019

Invasive

muh wrote: »

My position is that I am against a total opt out, because that would make it useless. But if it came to a total opt out, then that is that. We wouldn't enforce it internally if people wouldn't be okay with it, but we would talk about it and make a decision based on that discussion.

So @Arciris was right, you'd prefer to have it enforced by ZOS onto everyone throughout the entire game, because you may not be able to enforce it within your guild. M'kay... (sounds snarky but I don't know what to say here. SMH maybe ?). While I appreciate the way you seem to lead your guild, but it's a pity you don't show the same respect towards "the crowd".

muh wrote: »

Now to the part no one cared to answer so far, what about it right now, with or without character names makes it invasive, especially in context of personal data. (snip)

You're summarizing many aspects of this discussion, brought by different people. I can only answer for myself. Even though I've put my 2 cents a little bit of everywhere in this thread, I've gone mainly the "I don't want anyone to look over my shoulder" argument. You may feel differently, think I should live my life differently or even go see a shrink, I still don't want anyone to look over my shoulder and you have no right to judge that. The "L2P, it's because you're bad" isn't relevant. Just because I don't want to strip naked in front of you doesn't mean I'm ugly.
I also feel strongly against the increasingly competitive design of the game, which I could summarize by "git gud or stay overland". I have explained, I won't explain again. I understand why competitive people enjoy more competitive design, though. I feel betrayed by ZOS because it wasn't the original design and it goes against the "raise the floor, lower the ceiling" promise they made.
Griefers are also an issue.

As to the actual security / personal data stuff, I honestly don't think this is a real issue. I don't think there's any significant risk of anyone getting truly into trouble because of anonymized data showing up somewhere. But some people feel that way, and that counts, too. At least, everyone seems to agree on the necessity to "anonymize by default". Let's hope ZOS will do that.

I've already been staying away from vet content for the last two years or so, because of the prevalence of CMX. I just feel sorry that another wave of problems and community-destroying tools is coming. All while I think the possibilities of the site and Kirah's work are amazing.

EDIT : you also mentioned build diversity and meta. Well, that IS a real issue. those tools force people into meta, not necessarily because meta is compulsory to achieve good performance, but because many players think it is.
It's not like all data falls into the hand of good-willed, intelligent, informed and experienced people. A lot of data falls into the hands of ignorant brainless people who think they're bright, and that's where they become toxic. I'm not saying there are a lot of those in ESO but... oh well, yes, that's what I'm saying :-)

VaranisArano · April 2019

Idinuse wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

So much insecurity and ridiculous fearmongering in this thread.

Will there ever be a case where someone is being a *** about it? Sure. Do these people require this tool to be *** or are they anyways? Not at all. It's painfully obvious when someone in your group is bad, I could turn off my UI and could tell. I can then decide if I am being a *** about or not. I wouldn't need a tool for that at all.

99% of the people worried about it will never really be affected.

For those people that cry "elitism" and are scared that groups won't let you join their vet content: That's not elitism. That is fairness to everyone in the group. There are numerous people on these forums crying that they can't do all content in the game while spamming light attacks and call it elitism when someone suggest that they actually learn how to play. It's incredibly selfish. People who flat out refuse to improve or take advise, but expect people who have spent hours upon hours to get better at this game are the real toxic people. Everybody hates the people in school project groups that do nothing and expect the others to do all the work. This is exactly the same thing. This is a teamgame. If you refuse to add anything to a team you are not worth to be in it.

There are numerous very casual guilds that will never require the use of this tool. Just join them if you want to play with like minded people.

No. I'll tel you what's mind boggling. The hysteria in wanting to force this upon every player in the game. The manic demands that every players actions and key presses be recorded by complete strangers and possibly uploaded to a third party website.

What's so urgently important for you to get from strangers' actions game? What's it to you? Really? People are reacting to not consenting that total strangers, with the official help of Zos' no less, record anything about them at all and then upload it to a website that can easily be breached, and online IDs and Usernames along with e-mail addresses be stolen and spread online.

Just tell me what you possibly can have against this tool to be an opt in only, and if one in the group is not opt in no data is collected? What possible difference to you is it that all in your leader board score guild needs to actively opt in for this tool to do it's magic? Well you can keep demanding everyone is opted in or GTFO in your guilds. Just like you do with CMX.

Instead you want the people who oppose this tool start looking for other guilds of like-mined low performers? Is that an easier solution to having the tool be an opt in only, and if someone is not opt in no recording is made? Really? Or is it a huge chore for Progression/Raid Guilds to have their 12 guild members opt in on the content they're about to do?

Just don't force this down the throat of the rest of the 9.950.000 ESO players.

If anyone that sees this as the perfect tool for raids and progression, is against having this tool only be enabled if everyone in the group is opting in - working perfectly and without any less functionality, is out for something else than they are stating here, it would just be fishy not to mention creepy.

Bolded the part I want to speak to.

I think that's jumping straight to assuming bad faith of the people who want to use this tool. Instead I want to address two ways where the current design makes sense, despite lacking a complete opt-out.

First, the technical side of things. As described by Kihra, allowing a complete opt-out of data from an individual player will not generate useful data analysis for the full spectrum of available data. Kihra mentioned that they could aggregate the recorded data from other players or change what is displayed in the log, but the data still has to be recorded. So opting out of having your data recorded means ESO Logs doesn't work. Kihra stated its better to have NO data than PARTIAL data. That has major consequences for player usage.

Second, I want to talk about how ESO Logs is designed for players to use it as a tool to analyze their data to improve their ability to play ESO.

ESO Logs is designed for use in any encounter because players may want to use the data obtained from any encounter to improve. That can be anything from a training dummy, a world boss, a dungeon run, or a full progression raid trial. I'm rather interested to see how ESO Logs can be used in PVP myself. All encounters can have worthy data for a variety of different players - this is not a tool that's designed to be used ONLY in progression raid groups for trials. Its designed to be used by any player in any encounter to look at their combat data. (Whether or not anyone other than raid groups will actually use it in practice is immaterial for the purposes of this discussion.)

If you accept the technical limitations of ESO Logs and still want an Opt-out of all data recording, such as if an ESO Log ready check were implemented, then you understand that anyone opting out means that there is no reliable data.

Essentially, a ready check or a similar feature where your data cannot be recorded at all unless you consent, gives players veto right over another player's ability to use ESO Logs to look at the combat data. It cripples the useability of ESO Logs as designed.

Example:
Currently as designed: Players can record, upload, and view Logs and useable combat data analysis for any encounter they are in. (With other players in the parse being able to set themselves to anonymous)
With a full opt-out/veto feature: Players can record, upload, and view Logs and useable combat data analysis for any encounter where everyone agreed to let the encounter be logged.

That's a dramatic restriction on the useability of ESO Logs. In fact, that's the sort of change that would restrict its use to very few types of content, primarily organized dungeon and trial runs where everyone already is comfortable sharing their parse with addons like Combat Metrics. It vastly diminishes the ability of regular players to use ESO Logs to look for areas to improve in any other type of group content where other players get to completely opt-out or veto.

So I don't find it fishy or creepy at all. Instead, players who perform at the level where sharing a CMX parse is expected won't be bothered much by an opt-out/veto feature. They will get the same amount of recorded data as with CMX. However, players who want to use ESO Logs in any encounter as its designed would have the useability of the Logs greatly restricted by an opt-out/veto feature. Players who primarily play with Groupfinder or random encounters would get markedly less Logs to work from as other players veto their encounter log requests.

If ZOS wants this to primarily be a tool used by organized groups to get better, then an opt-out/veto feature makes sense.
If ZOS wants this to be a tool for any player to use during any encounter to get better, as it seems they do, then an opt-out/veto feature works against that aim.

Personally, I want all players to be anonymous by default, but after that point, I'm fine without an opt-out/veto feature, as I value the intention that ESO Logs should be for any player to use in any encounter to improve. An anonymous player in ESO Logs has the same anonymity and privacy as they currently do in a group where players use CMX.

muh · April 2019

Useful

Idinuse wrote: »

No. I'll tel you what's mind boggling. The hysteria in wanting to force this upon every player in the game. The manic demands that every players actions and key presses be recorded by complete strangers and possibly uploaded to a third party website.

Everyone already has that ability in form of video recordings and youtube, or even twitch.

What's mind boggling is the lack of understanding what a complete opt-out of logging would mean for a tool like this.

Most actions, or even equipment you wear, affects more than one person in your group. If a player applies e.g. Major Force via Agressive Warhorn, every player gets a buff. If the player using Aggressive Warhorn did opt-out of logging this event wouldn't be visible anywhere in the log and while everyone did more critical damage because they had the buff the website wouldn't know anything about it.
And we're not talking about one buff here. You wouldn't log a court process and leave out every third sentence and call it comprehensive or useful, would you?

Idinuse wrote: »

What's so urgently important for you to get from strangers' actions game? What's it to you? Really?

Except for the reasons mentioned above nothing. But what do you lose by sharing said actions anonymously if it helps them?

Idinuse wrote: »

People are reacting to not consenting that total strangers, with the official help of Zos' no less, record anything about them at all and then upload it to a website that can easily be breached, and online IDs and Usernames along with e-mail addresses be stolen and spread online.

Tell me how this is not fearmongering?
I'm actually sorry to break this news to you, but the same thing can happen to this very website, the same thing can happen to the database holding all the juicy information about your real identity and not just your character names and dps information.
This can happen to absolutely every website or service that is connected to the internet.

The website also doesn't store email addresses unless you register and voluntarily give them your email address. At that point they very clearly have consent that they are allowed to store it, right?

Idinuse wrote: »

If anyone that sees this as the perfect tool for raids and progression, is against having this tool only be enabled if everyone in the group is opting in - working perfectly and without any less functionality, is out for something else than they are stating here, it would just be fishy not to mention creepy.

Alright, so I did write this before but here you go.

If you log combat data with the intention to upload it to the website (not an automatic process mind you), you get to chose how you want it to be accessible on the website. You have a choice of storing it for yourself or for one of your guilds, in both situations you get the option to set it to public or private. Private means that only you can view it or people that are registered and in your guild as well.

To improve myself, which means digging into my own log, I'd log pretty much every trial I do, even PUGs, privately (or guild only if it's a guild run). If people would have the option to opt-out completly a lot of those logs would be absolutely useless for analysis.
So am I creepy enoguh now that I want to stalk myself? Can't imagine anything more satisfying to spend a good chunk of time breaking down a combat log just to tell myself how much I suck. Combat Metrics just isn't nearly detailed enough compared to a comprehensive combat log analysis.

Arciris · April 2019

Invasive

muh wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

So it all comes back again to that suspicion of people wanting to hide their performance - or lack of it - and wanting to be carried, etc...
What if I told you it isn't about that? What if I told you I don't feel like I have any reason to be ashamed of my own performance? What if I told you I wouldn't mind myself to use this tool to improve myself? (there's always room for improvement)

So once again we have the issue with information retention, I've already said in this thread that I don't care how well others perform. That I've a tendency to help new players if they accept help. That I'm not flawless myself and have room for improvement.

Arciris wrote: »

It has been explained many times how the "anonymous" part is not that anonymous to begin with.

And once again, instead of answering my question you're basically saying that someone else said, without being able to tell me what your concerns about personal data are.

Arciris wrote: »

And I am sorry to tell you this, but you have no right to judge anyone that doesn't want to be a part of this and/or think it is just "sillyness".
Just because it doesn't suit your goals, people still have all the right to decide if they want the flow of their actions to be under microscope or not, even if it's "just in a videogame".

So where does your right to judge people come from? Aren't you basically accusing Kihra to not give a sh*t about the security of their website? It has been said multiple times, that even if character names are still transmitted when toggling anonymity that they're not accessible by anyone. That if userids are transmitted that they are not accessible by anyone.

With a complete opt-out of logging feature it gives all the power to you. Who gives you the right to have such power over my gameplay experience?

Arciris wrote: »

Also, if you think that "real identity" is the only issue here, I don't what else I can tell you. For some people, their avatar or pseudonym is a real identity too - we're not in the 20th century anymore... and even then...Maybe you haven't consider that.

If real identity is not the issue here, I fail to understand how a setting to be anonymous is not enough?

Arciris wrote: »

So yes, I will continue to think that Opt Out by default is the right thing to do. Even if after that I decide to Opt In for myself, that doesn't mean I want to force other people to do it.

And once again, as I've mentioned in pretty much every other post I've made here and to you. I'm absolutely fine when opt-in to share character names is the default.

Wow, this post and your previous post, this is some serious escalation.

So, point by point.
1. I'm glad you help players and don't care about other people performance but you are the one who brought the L2P argument (page 13)
2. Seems like "personal data" is something that differs from person to person. In this case -some of- the "Invasive" crowd considers that the flow of their every action is personal data (every breath you take, every move you make, every smile you fake... i'll be watching you) and that even in "anonymous" form, since their character name and/or user name can easily be deducted.
3. Where in this thread was I judging people? The expression "toxic elitist" is mostly used by the "blue" crowd, not the "red" one, and in your previous post it is probably used more than in the rest of the entire thread.

This is the first time I'm typing those words. Also I'm not saying that the website owner is not going to do everything they can to ensure the protection of data, but that doesn't mean that is is enough... even Banks are hacked.
4. Quote: "With a complete opt-out of logging feature it gives all the power to you. Who gives you the right to have such power over my gameplay experience?" I'm sorry, lul what??? With default Opt In it gives all the power to You. Who gives You the right to have such power over my gameplay experience? See where this goes? But at least Opt Out by default would still allow you to use the tool, but oh horror, you would have to ask personally the people you play with to agree in using the tool too.
5. Anonymous is not enough because the log creator will know who the anonymous person was, by very simple deduction.
6. Anonymous being set by default is just not enough to ensure the privacy of people. Opt-out is needed

As for your previous post.
To be clear. No one is thinking that most players are going to use the tool to harass others. But a very small minority might. And fear not, I think everyone in this thread is aware that that small minority isn't most likely a member of the endgame community... just some frustrated wannabees that sickly find enjoyment in hurting others.

And about to live in fear... I don't know about you, but when I'm driving, I fasten my seat belt. Not that I crumble in fear that I might have an accident, but just to be on the safe side. I'm also pretty sure that your password is not "password", not because you fear everyone in the internet is a hacker, but because you know there are a few out there