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Please Raise the cp Minimum for Vet Dungeons
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fluke.Slywalker wrote: »I started a thread similar to this today, before noticing this thread.
It's an ongoing issue, it's more for the DLC dungeons IMO, if you're queuing for vanilla vet dungeons, even the II's, you should be able to compete.
The problem is with DLC, they are much harder and mechanic driven.
Not too sure what can be done, as I said in my thread, it's just as annoying for the guy who's dragging behind I'm sure, having been plonked down on his daily XP dungeon, into vet Fang lair or something.
I think imposing a DPS test ahead of each queue is quite ridiculous. But I can't think of much else that would stop this.
Maybe the queue for DLC content should be separate from vanilla content. Even the older DLC stuff, Cradle, ICP is F'ing hard on vet hm.
Queue for normal, queue for vet, queue for normal DLC, queue for vet DLC. If this was the case then the only person to blame for this happening would be the person queuing for that which he is not able to do, and then should be kicked.
That - or they make the queue lobby visible to players, so you can at least leave the lobby before forming group.
This thread is about normal dungeon. Also, for DLC dungeons, the same players challenged with those dungeons at CP 300 will still be challenged at the CP cap.
CP level does not equate to competence. I have known players on new low CP accounts out dps entire groups of CP capped players.2 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭That’s a bit high. I would think CP 160 should be good enough, kind of. A couple of regular and Vet 2 dungeons are a bit much for low CP players. Banished Cells 2 for example. Mechanics are a bit OP for noobs. Direfrost Keep can be a nightmare. Elden hollow 2 can be quite rough.
At 300+ CP, they become substantially easier.
But you often see a fresh CP 10 or even 160 ish player in vet dungeon. You know they’re still in level 35 gear and die. A lot.
When your geared right and Skill points right, basically toon is really battle ready, it’s much easier.0 -
SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LadySinflower wrote: »Here we go again. Too many people have no tolerance or patience to play with others in a game designed to be played with others. You don't get to tell that CP200 that he has no right to try vet content. Don't you realize that everybody has to have a chance to learn the mechanics before they just KNOW? So by your account if I join a pug in a vet dungeon as a first-timer I'm just a leech? If I don't have a guild house equipped with a parsing dummy I'm a leech? If my build doesn't live up to your standards I'm a leech? You get any variety and quality of people in pug situations. Not everyone has guildies or an awesome teaching buddy to run with. The only way they can learn is to get in there and try. Then we get threads like this which do intimidate players who are already self-conscious about their skills in the first place. It's a video game. Can't stand to run with anyone lower than your elitist standards? Don't pug. If you insist on continuing to pug with an attitude like that, take a valium. Have some fun and give noobs the benefit of that superior knowledge you're so smug about. If you teach instead of complain, maybe the quality of skills will improve in your average pug. Just sayin.
*standing ovation*
I feel like a lot of people in this thread are vastly overestimating the abilities and resources that the "average" ESO player has access to, and I'm seeing some absurdly high numbers re. the DPS that people think others should be able to pull in their sleep. Maybe I'm not as good as others at gitting gud quickly, but to clear 40k DPS I have spent hours parked in front of a skeleton dummy working on my rotation. This was true for clearing 30k as well, and I had to put in quite a bit of work to clear even 20k. Never mind the time spent farming gear and getting the gold to upgrade it.
That said, that's what I enjoy doing- getting my DPS as high as I can for dungeons and trials. I don't expect others to put in even close to the same level of effort if they enjoy other things. I figure that since I can typically pull the DPS numbers that two semi-decent DPS would be able to, I'm happy to help lowbs through dungeons and help them however I can. It sounds like there are a lot of other highly skilled players in this thread as well- why not use your powers for good? Assuming someone is at least willing to listen, I'm willing to help.6 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Players should need to be cp350+400 { arbitrary requirement } to queue for vets.
vsSidraWillowsky wrote: »[snip] skilled players ... ... willing to help
This is the crux of the whole discussion in my mind.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Players should need to be cp350+400 { arbitrary requirement } to queue for vets.
vsSidraWillowsky wrote: »[snip] skilled players ... ... willing to help
This is the crux of the whole discussion in my mind.
Skilled players are willing to help. There are guilds that cross all sorts of skill levels and that is where most learn more about the game, if they are actually interested. I know because I am in a couple raiding guilds, what is called a training guild and a more casual guild.
In each guild there are player there to help. Even, and especially, in the raiding guilds there are players there to help. But there are also player not really interested in the help and not wiling to change.
So improvement start with oneself and earnestly seeking it. Zos, nor any of us, can make it happen ourselves.1 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Players should need to be cp350+400 { arbitrary requirement } to queue for vets.
vsSidraWillowsky wrote: »[snip] skilled players ... ... willing to help
This is the crux of the whole discussion in my mind.
Skilled players are willing to help. There are guilds that cross all sorts of skill levels and that is where most learn more about the game, if they are actually interested. I know because I am in a couple raiding guilds, what is called a training guild and a more casual guild.
In each guild there are player there to help. Even, and especially, in the raiding guilds there are players there to help. But there are also player not really interested in the help and not wiling to change.
So improvement start with oneself and earnestly seeking it. Zos, nor any of us, can make it happen ourselves.
Indeed. There are plenty of skilled players willing to help and offer advice -- just as there is an equal number of players that bemoan the existence of lesser skilled players.
This thread holds plenty proof of both
There are plenty of lower level players, and lesser skilled players asking for advice, and many who will not ask, and many who will not accept it, regardless...
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Michaelkeir✭✭✭✭✭CP is not the issuse if you ask me...well for tge most part. I've literally been in quite a few vet dungeons (both dlc and base game) and seen with my own eyes max CP doing snipe or hard casting crystal frags over and over. I know something's off if the first 2 trash mobs take 30-40 secs to kill. Then I start looking at what attacks they are using....which is usually spamming single target attacks on a trash pull instead of AoEs. Then they are clearly friends because when I vote kick, they decline...and refuse to speak in voice chat. This happens way too often.
With the new class coming....be prepared to deal with a lot of new players clogging up group finder.
Only reason I use group finder is to at least help with the lack of tanks....but it's ruff.0 -
SoLooney✭✭✭✭✭That 350-400 is unnecessary and way too high. 300CP means that character can pretty much do every content well if geared right and with enough skill/experience. It's because at 300CP your stats will have been boosted by 20% in total (which doesn't continue beyond 300CP). All the DLC dungeons are already locked on vet for people below 160CP if I remember correctly, so all the dungeons that are left really shouldn't be an issue. If there is at least one competent player around, you'll make it regardless which one it is.
Also, you do realize that putting that lock there means banning Monster sets from everyone below 300CP? What do you even start doing undaunted pledges since lvl45 for if the rewards only become worth it at 300CP (as opposed to 160). You've essentially more than doubled the wait time there as each new CP takes more XP than the last one to get.
Getting to cp 300 isnt a huge problem, we all grinded for our cp, new players can do it as well, this game is elder scrolls, not entitlement. There are plenty of base monster sets that will carry you well into those DLC dungeons
And no, one person is not gonna carry 3 bad people, if that were the case, the good player could just solo it, and a bad tank is not gonna get through most of the vet DLC dungeonsLower CP dps isn't the problem. It's survivability, those defensive boosts are where the real CP power is. My CP315 magplar dps on pc is pulling 30k, but is far squishier than my near identical build CP810 on xbox - - dps differs by ~5-6k; and that is likely mostly contributed to by vma staff + Grothdarr which I haven't got for my lower yet.
That said, increased survivability == more consistency and higher performance. But that wasn't the core of the argument presented.
Low cp players can survive fine. Its mechanics, dont stand in stupid. If you properly place your red cp, you will be fine. Assuming at least 300 cp. So either slot a self heal or bring a healer
And better dps will involve less mechanics, so more dps makes things easier. You could follow mechanics all day but if your damage is crap, that just means more opportunities for you and your group to die. A lot of pugs who have low dps usually also have bad awareness, I hardly ever see just one of the problems, it's usually bothEdited by SoLooney on April 8, 2019 4:33PM1 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭That 350-400 is unnecessary and way too high. 300CP means that character can pretty much do every content well if geared right and with enough skill/experience. It's because at 300CP your stats will have been boosted by 20% in total (which doesn't continue beyond 300CP). All the DLC dungeons are already locked on vet for people below 160CP if I remember correctly, so all the dungeons that are left really shouldn't be an issue. If there is at least one competent player around, you'll make it regardless which one it is.
Also, you do realize that putting that lock there means banning Monster sets from everyone below 300CP? What do you even start doing undaunted pledges since lvl45 for if the rewards only become worth it at 300CP (as opposed to 160). You've essentially more than doubled the wait time there as each new CP takes more XP than the last one to get.
Getting to cp 300 isnt a huge problem, we all grinded for our cp, new players can do it as well, this game is elder scrolls, not entitlement. There are plenty of base monster sets that will carry you well into those DLC dungeons
And no, one person is not gonna carry 3 bad people, if that were the case, the good player could just solo it, and a bad tank is not gonna get through most of the vet DLC dungeonsLower CP dps isn't the problem. It's survivability, those defensive boosts are where the real CP power is. My CP315 magplar dps on pc is pulling 30k, but is far squishier than my near identical build CP810 on xbox - - dps differs by ~5-6k; and that is likely mostly contributed to by vma staff + Grothdarr which I haven't got for my lower yet.
That said, increased survivability == more consistency and higher performance. But that wasn't the core of the argument presented.
Low cp players can survive fine. Its mechanics, dont stand in stupid. If you properly place your red cp, you will be fine. Assuming at least 300 cp. So either slot a self heal or bring a healer
And better dps will involve less mechanics, so more dps makes things easier. You could follow mechanics all day but if your damage is crap, that just means more opportunities for you and your group to die. A lot of pugs who have low dps usually also have bad awareness, I hardly ever see just one of the problems, it's usually both
OP wasn't talking about vet DLC (that's already the minimum). He wants 300CP minimum to enter a base game vet dungeon which I personally find ridiculous. I could see an argument made for 160 being the minimum but that's about as high as I would take it.3 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »LeagueTroll wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »CP is a terrible measure of DPS. Most of the CP 810's I see in random vet dungeons are pulling <10k.
I also have a low CP alt account that does over 40k on most vet dungeon bosses.
It's all border cases. From my experience, it's really rare when cp810 in random vet doesn't have 15-20k. And cp300 is usually a mess dying to single breeze of wind and doing 7-12k. Yes there are low dps cp810 and stormproof cp200 twinks. But in practice group of 4 cp700+ almost guarantees fast and easy run in any vets aside from few new ones. While group of cp200-400 usually struggles to complete HM in base1 dungeons...
Still, I agree that there is no point to limit dungeons by CP. Profoundibob's idea with "certification" is much better.
15k-20k is horrible, if you think those can bring u fast runs, i feel sry for u.
I feel sorry for you that you are speaking nonsense, not related to topic. Added to ignore list.
Can you ignore people on forum? Been wanting to add a couple of people for a while...1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That 350-400 is unnecessary and way too high. 300CP means that character can pretty much do every content well if geared right and with enough skill/experience. It's because at 300CP your stats will have been boosted by 20% in total (which doesn't continue beyond 300CP). All the DLC dungeons are already locked on vet for people below 160CP if I remember correctly, so all the dungeons that are left really shouldn't be an issue. If there is at least one competent player around, you'll make it regardless which one it is.
Also, you do realize that putting that lock there means banning Monster sets from everyone below 300CP? What do you even start doing undaunted pledges since lvl45 for if the rewards only become worth it at 300CP (as opposed to 160). You've essentially more than doubled the wait time there as each new CP takes more XP than the last one to get.
Getting to cp 300 isnt a huge problem, we all grinded for our cp, new players can do it as well, this game is elder scrolls, not entitlement. There are plenty of base monster sets that will carry you well into those DLC dungeons
And no, one person is not gonna carry 3 bad people, if that were the case, the good player could just solo it, and a bad tank is not gonna get through most of the vet DLC dungeonsLower CP dps isn't the problem. It's survivability, those defensive boosts are where the real CP power is. My CP315 magplar dps on pc is pulling 30k, but is far squishier than my near identical build CP810 on xbox - - dps differs by ~5-6k; and that is likely mostly contributed to by vma staff + Grothdarr which I haven't got for my lower yet.
That said, increased survivability == more consistency and higher performance. But that wasn't the core of the argument presented.
Low cp players can survive fine. Its mechanics, dont stand in stupid. If you properly place your red cp, you will be fine. Assuming at least 300 cp. So either slot a self heal or bring a healer
And better dps will involve less mechanics, so more dps makes things easier. You could follow mechanics all day but if your damage is crap, that just means more opportunities for you and your group to die. A lot of pugs who have low dps usually also have bad awareness, I hardly ever see just one of the problems, it's usually both
First, OP is talking about base game dungeons making his suggestion even more absurd.
To your point, there is no significant difference between 300 and 400. There is certainly no reason to expect a player who is challenged with mechancs at lvl 300 is going noticeably improve as they earn the next 100 CP.
So yes, the suggestion of increasing the CP cap is nothing more than entitlement.
Edited by idk on April 8, 2019 5:07PM1 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »LeagueTroll wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »CP is a terrible measure of DPS. Most of the CP 810's I see in random vet dungeons are pulling <10k.
I also have a low CP alt account that does over 40k on most vet dungeon bosses.
It's all border cases. From my experience, it's really rare when cp810 in random vet doesn't have 15-20k. And cp300 is usually a mess dying to single breeze of wind and doing 7-12k. Yes there are low dps cp810 and stormproof cp200 twinks. But in practice group of 4 cp700+ almost guarantees fast and easy run in any vets aside from few new ones. While group of cp200-400 usually struggles to complete HM in base1 dungeons...
Still, I agree that there is no point to limit dungeons by CP. Profoundibob's idea with "certification" is much better.
15k-20k is horrible, if you think those can bring u fast runs, i feel sry for u.
I feel sorry for you that you are speaking nonsense, not related to topic. Added to ignore list.
Can you ignore people on forum? Been wanting to add a couple of people for a while...
Click the name, right beside the message button is a drop down menu with the ignore function.1 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭Players should need to be cp350+400 { arbitrary requirement } to queue for vets.
vsSidraWillowsky wrote: »[snip] skilled players ... ... willing to help
This is the crux of the whole discussion in my mind.
Skilled players are willing to help. There are guilds that cross all sorts of skill levels and that is where most learn more about the game, if they are actually interested. I know because I am in a couple raiding guilds, what is called a training guild and a more casual guild.
In each guild there are player there to help. Even, and especially, in the raiding guilds there are players there to help. But there are also player not really interested in the help and not wiling to change.
So improvement start with oneself and earnestly seeking it. Zos, nor any of us, can make it happen ourselves.
Indeed. There are plenty of skilled players willing to help and offer advice -- just as there is an equal number of players that bemoan the existence of lesser skilled players.
This thread holds plenty proof of both
There are plenty of lower level players, and lesser skilled players asking for advice, and many who will not ask, and many who will not accept it, regardless...
Done plenty of helping, I never say no to any dd who can pull the dmg, vdsa, vet dlcs dungeons, vmol as long as they do good dps, mechanics I can explain. It’s the ones who don’t even give a crap about copying a viable pve build, they don’t put in minimal effort just want to do content they can’t possibly pull their own weight.1 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agenericname wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »LeagueTroll wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »CP is a terrible measure of DPS. Most of the CP 810's I see in random vet dungeons are pulling <10k.
I also have a low CP alt account that does over 40k on most vet dungeon bosses.
It's all border cases. From my experience, it's really rare when cp810 in random vet doesn't have 15-20k. And cp300 is usually a mess dying to single breeze of wind and doing 7-12k. Yes there are low dps cp810 and stormproof cp200 twinks. But in practice group of 4 cp700+ almost guarantees fast and easy run in any vets aside from few new ones. While group of cp200-400 usually struggles to complete HM in base1 dungeons...
Still, I agree that there is no point to limit dungeons by CP. Profoundibob's idea with "certification" is much better.
15k-20k is horrible, if you think those can bring u fast runs, i feel sry for u.
I feel sorry for you that you are speaking nonsense, not related to topic. Added to ignore list.
Can you ignore people on forum? Been wanting to add a couple of people for a while...
Click the name, right beside the message button is a drop down menu with the ignore function.
Awesome!0 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »CP is a terrible measure of DPS. Most of the CP 810's I see in random vet dungeons are pulling <10k.
I also have a low CP alt account that does over 40k on most vet dungeon bosses.
Most???
Also how can you have an alt that has a different amount of CPs than your main?
Asking for a friend...0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »CP is a terrible measure of DPS. Most of the CP 810's I see in random vet dungeons are pulling <10k.
I also have a low CP alt account that does over 40k on most vet dungeon bosses.
Most???
Also how can you have an alt that has a different amount of CPs than your main?
Asking for a friend...
Read more carefully. They are not speaking of an alt, but an alt account. The second account does not inherit the CP of your main account.
Many of us have alt accounts and/or started fresh on the sister server or both. Myself and those I know with alt accounts have shared stories of out dpsing max CP players when we are CP 160 and even less. We have even out dpsed entire groups when we are the healer. So yes, their story is correct and sad at the same time.Edited by idk on April 8, 2019 5:30PM0 -
Smile2342✭✭Just get rid of dungeon finder and PUGs. Force people to talk to each other first before entering a dungeon. Then you'll have the opportunity to ask them if they are a leech, scrub, elite, or whatever other category you're looking to place them.
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AndyMac✭✭✭✭✭Everybody has to learn somehow - and the only way is to jump in and try. The gap between normal and vet dungeons is large so I doubt that doing any number of normals will get you prepared.
I wonder how many experienced PvE players would admit they’ve been helped through content at some point. I know I have in the past. Guildies got me through v Cradle when it first dropped - not going to lie
160 cp should be fine for most vet I dungeons. They can be soloed by cap players without any problem. Other players should be able to help or drop group if that’s not their thing.
If we’ve got cp players who can’t play - setting increasing bars for basic vet content isn’t going to help imo.Andymac - Magicka DK - EP Grand Overlord - Flawless Conqueror2 -
Bherdani✭✭✭It's easy to forget that in the past, we farmed the majority of dungeons at CP120-160 (that is, VR12-16), well before the conversion to the CP system and subsequent cap increases. While CP certainly help, they do not make or break a player's performance. Many players are frustrated with the low level of skill that seems to be rampant in the game; it is a greater, systemic issue than just the headaches of the group queue. Zos has begun addressing it with the skill advisor; hopefully in the future they will add more tutorials and such (such as how to weave and animation cancel) to support their players' success.Nightfighters - Legion of the Bloodworks
www.elderscrubsonline.com
NO PARKING IN THE RED
Proud member of The Psijic Order - Team 0.016%0 -
Reverb✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Plenty of max cp players are crap too.Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche2 -
Ryknos✭✭✭If this were wow people would be telling you to stop telling others how to play their own game. I am so glad I didn't have to read this.2 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭We should ban anyone that has between 561 and 731 cp from dungeons. Just because it will make life interesting for a while
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ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
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Never really played wow, but I'll tell you, stop telling people how to play their game. Leave group, if your group sucks too much... Premades are free that's what I do. CP 170 on EU and I can play vets just fine with my average 25k DPS. Never had anyone whining about it and 25k is only decent enough, not even good.
It's not about WoW, it's about people being entitled, I think. People like you and others that pug when they shouldn't. If you're not ready for pugs, don't pug, right?0 -
Ryknos✭✭✭
Never really played wow, but I'll tell you, stop telling people how to play their game.
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ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
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Never really played wow, but I'll tell you, stop telling people how to play their game.
Haha I giggled. Well done, good human.0 -
Ryknos✭✭✭
Leave group, if your group sucks too much... Premades are free that's what I do. CP 170 on EU and I can play vets just fine with my average 25k DPS. Never had anyone whining about it and 25k is only decent enough, not even good.
It's not about WoW, it's about people being entitled, I think. People like you and others that pug when they shouldn't. If you're not ready for pugs, don't pug, right?
On a lighter note I don't care about the OP's post I'm just liking that people aren't resorting to explanations that don't make any sense and just slapping the old "stop telling people what to do" sticker on it. Instead people here are giving good reasons why instead of berating the OP which is what I like.0 -
Eso101rus✭✭✭✭Low CP is not the issue, low understanding of how to play is. Tonight a 810cp stamblade, running as tank, using 2h/bow, cloak and ambush, obviously a fake tank, but running skills which make me think he was hiding from the bosses in an attempt to gank. I’ve ran with lower cp players who have great dps and know how to play. Cp can be a very false indicator both ways.1 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Leave group, if your group sucks too much... Premades are free that's what I do. CP 170 on EU and I can play vets just fine with my average 25k DPS. Never had anyone whining about it and 25k is only decent enough, not even good.
It's not about WoW, it's about people being entitled, I think. People like you and others that pug when they shouldn't. If you're not ready for pugs, don't pug, right?
On a lighter note I don't care about the OP's post I'm just liking that people aren't resorting to explanations that don't make any sense and just slapping the old "stop telling people what to do" sticker on it. Instead people here are giving good reasons why instead of berating the OP which is what I like.
I like it too. It's nice when people argue for both pro and against the subject without overly simplifying the issues. There are always two sides to the story, and both probably have their reasons to like it not like what happens.1
