Please Raise the cp Minimum for Vet Dungeons

Gretzel · April 2019

tizodd wrote: »

Players should need to be cp350+400 to queue for vets. I'm so tired of slowly drudging through vets with low cp dps. And no, I'm not some elitist who forgot where he came from...I got my feet wet on normals before getting into vets because I figured I'd be nothing more than a leech until I got some decent gear sets and higher cp. I didn't do my first vet until I was cp400+.

Now...I know that people like to be contrary and disagree for the sake of disagreeing but please hear me out and think about it logically before jumping at the chance to argue. Having a cp10 player in a vet dungeon is largely a waste of time (I got grouped with a cp10 today). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed if friends want to try their luck at low cp. By all means, a pre-formed group should have the freedom to try if they want to. But for dungeon finder, there really should be a minimum cp for vet dungeons.

Lately I've been leaving when I get grouped with two low cp dps'ers in a vet. I just don't feel like wasting all the time reviving them and/or waiting for them to do enough dps to actually kill things.

Ive seen garbage dps from cp700+. CP alone is indicative of nothing. I started doing vets at like cp30 (270 now) and I found them pretty easy most of the time.

tizodd · April 2019

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

to be honest i have a hard time understanding why people queue for vet dungeons when a) they are rather low cp and b) have never done the dungeon and clearly don't know any mechanics - talking about dlc dungeons...

im a super casual player, it seems i can do all dlc dungeons with a good group - nevertheless i do the normal ones first, read up on the mechanics, watch videos and am scared like a little bunny every time i approach a new vet dungeon

I was the same way. And I wish more people would have this humble, logical approach. Unfortunately, many people jump into higher level things hoping to be coddled and carried through. An even more unfortunate (as responses to this thread show), others are more than willing to coddle and carry them.

Jeremy · April 2019

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

to be honest i have a hard time understanding why people queue for vet dungeons when a) they are rather low cp and b) have never done the dungeon and clearly don't know any mechanics - talking about dlc dungeons...

im a super casual player, it seems i can do all dlc dungeons with a good group - nevertheless i do the normal ones first, read up on the mechanics, watch videos and am scared like a little bunny every time i approach a new vet dungeon

I've always done them on normal first as well... even at 810 CP. Just seems to be the decent thing to do in my judgement.

highkingnm · April 2019

XxCaLxX wrote: »

I don’t agree. While you would think higher CP players are better it’s just not true. There should however be some sort of system to determine if you can queue for vet dungeons and even vet dlc dungeons. Maybe there should be a quest at cp160 to where you go to undaunted enclave and they have a dummy. If you can parse 20k then you can then queue for vet dungeons. When you can parse 25-30k then you can queue for vet dlc dungeons. Level isn’t the problem. I’ve gotten flawless conqueror on a cp181 is it fair that I have to wait til cp300 to queue for dlc’s when a cp400 grinded spellscar or sky reach and they can queue? Only solution I can think of is to have a quest that tests your damage and skill that qualifies you for certain content. Again I don’t disagree that it’s a problem. I just don’t think that the level is always the problem.

This is an awful system.

1) What about tanks and healers? Some healers MIGHT hit the 25k benchmark with gold weapons, perfect rotation and gear (including monster helms they can’t get until they pass that benchmark).

2) Looking forward to cheese passes and builds just for getting you through the check, but being exceptionally squishy. Damage doesn’t mean they will survive, sustain in a real environment or complement other roles.

3) Would it not be far more logical to lock the vet version until you make it through the normal? That would test skill more than a simple parse.

4) This still favours CP300+ because a lot of damage comes from gilded weapons, good dungeon/trial sets and CP.

5) DLC dungeons do not need much more damage than regular ones (same on vet), they require mechanics knowledge and playing along.

I agree with the need for change, but possibly the worst thing to do is hate it behind parses. At least a lot of low DPS players have points in health and the like (part of why they have low DPS), I’d take them if they play mechs over a 25k who is on the floor every few seconds because of a cheese build. Or who can’t hit anywhere near that because the second he has to dodge roll or play mechs he has no sustain or can’t keep damaging.

Runefang · April 2019

highkingnm wrote: »

XxCaLxX wrote: »

I don’t agree. While you would think higher CP players are better it’s just not true. There should however be some sort of system to determine if you can queue for vet dungeons and even vet dlc dungeons. Maybe there should be a quest at cp160 to where you go to undaunted enclave and they have a dummy. If you can parse 20k then you can then queue for vet dungeons. When you can parse 25-30k then you can queue for vet dlc dungeons. Level isn’t the problem. I’ve gotten flawless conqueror on a cp181 is it fair that I have to wait til cp300 to queue for dlc’s when a cp400 grinded spellscar or sky reach and they can queue? Only solution I can think of is to have a quest that tests your damage and skill that qualifies you for certain content. Again I don’t disagree that it’s a problem. I just don’t think that the level is always the problem.

This is an awful system.

1) What about tanks and healers? Some healers MIGHT hit the 25k benchmark with gold weapons, perfect rotation and gear (including monster helms they can’t get until they pass that benchmark).

2) Looking forward to cheese passes and builds just for getting you through the check, but being exceptionally squishy. Damage doesn’t mean they will survive, sustain in a real environment or complement other roles.

3) Would it not be far more logical to lock the vet version until you make it through the normal? That would test skill more than a simple parse.

4) This still favours CP300+ because a lot of damage comes from gilded weapons, good dungeon/trial sets and CP.

5) DLC dungeons do not need much more damage than regular ones (same on vet), they require mechanics knowledge and playing along.

I agree with the need for change, but possibly the worst thing to do is hate it behind parses. At least a lot of low DPS players have points in health and the like (part of why they have low DPS), I’d take them if they play mechs over a 25k who is on the floor every few seconds because of a cheese build. Or who can’t hit anywhere near that because the second he has to dodge roll or play mechs he has no sustain or can’t keep damaging.

A normal dungeon is a far worse test of your ability than a dummy parse, for a DPS anyway.

Tannus15 · April 2019

One of the problems with CP is that people give it more weight than it deserves.

people seem to think that the difference between cp 300 and cp 810 is an additional 30k dps. It's nuts.
If you're doing < 20k dps at 250cp, you'll still be doing <20k dps at cp 810 unless you actually spend some time learning how the game works mechanically.
ESO has a very specific combat and gearing system and unless you setup correctly you're going to have a bad time. You don't have to have a flawless rotation with an amazing light attack / second ratio, but you DO need to know how the timers for your dots line up and what a spammable is and a basic understanding of what light attack weaving is.

FierceSam · April 2019

CP is a useless indication of ability.

I think if you accept the random dungeon bonus, you also accept to some extent the prowess and limitations of your groupmates. If YOU can’t handle this, it’s entirely your prerogative to leave the group. What you can’t do is dictate who should be allowed to play with you.

If you only want to play with experienced people, go find them. Just don’t go pugging expecting to only be grouped with people who meet your criteria.

That’s not how the game should work.

tizodd · April 2019

Again...I've never claimed that cp = skill. I've never said that. But cp is the only gauge we have of another player without actually seeing them in action. So while cp =/= skill, cp typically means a few things: The player has likely played the game a while; the player has likely obtained a decent amount of experience during that time; the player likely has, at the very least, a fundamental understanding of game mechanics; the player is likely running with a build/gearset (5/5/2 or at least 5/5).

Please don't misquote or misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying cp equals those things 100% of the time. I'm saying it's a good chance that it's the case. In my experience, 95%+ of the time, my dungeon runs go much better when teammates have higher cp. To argue that this isn't usually the case, is really being disingenuous.

People keep pointing out outliers and exceptions by saying things like "I've seen bad cp700+ dps"; or "I've seen great cp200 dps". But you've got to know that those are exceptions and not the norm...right? Typically, a higher cp player does have better gear and a better overall understanding of the game. Typically. Not always. But typically...more often than not.

LeagueTroll · April 2019

Odnoc wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

CP is a terrible measure of DPS. Most of the CP 810's I see in random vet dungeons are pulling <10k.

I also have a low CP alt account that does over 40k on most vet dungeon bosses.

It's all border cases. From my experience, it's really rare when cp810 in random vet doesn't have 15-20k. And cp300 is usually a mess dying to single breeze of wind and doing 7-12k. Yes there are low dps cp810 and stormproof cp200 twinks. But in practice group of 4 cp700+ almost guarantees fast and easy run in any vets aside from few new ones. While group of cp200-400 usually struggles to complete HM in base1 dungeons...

Still, I agree that there is no point to limit dungeons by CP. Profoundibob's idea with "certification" is much better.

15k-20k is horrible, if you think those can bring u fast runs, i feel sry for u.

I feel sorry for you that you have trouble clearing with that DPS, I've had plenty of fast runs in that range. Sounds like you have a crappy tank/healer.

And I really feel sorry for you for bringing nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic into the topic.

‘Fast’

Zavijah · April 2019

I do agree there either needs to be an increase to at least CP300, or better back end scaling.

The whole explanation that it takes you 50 levels to learn your class is a farce. No you just need CP, and Rank 4 of the morph ability you want, with the right gear, traits, mundus and food. Don't overcomplicate rationale - as once those are in place it's literally just light attack weaving in between maintaining dots or spammables.

There are plenty of people who are just on underpowered characters simply because they don't have those resources at hand yet, through no fault of there own. There are also mongoloids at high CP who bite off more than they can chew.

itsfatbass · April 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

CP is a terrible measure of DPS. Most of the CP 810's I see in random vet dungeons are pulling <10k.

I also have a low CP alt account that does over 40k on most vet dungeon bosses.

It's all border cases. From my experience, it's really rare when cp810 in random vet doesn't have 15-20k. And cp300 is usually a mess dying to single breeze of wind and doing 7-12k. Yes there are low dps cp810 and stormproof cp200 twinks. But in practice group of 4 cp700+ almost guarantees fast and easy run in any vets aside from few new ones. While group of cp200-400 usually struggles to complete HM in base1 dungeons...

Still, I agree that there is no point to limit dungeons by CP. Profoundibob's idea with "certification" is much better.

15k-20k is horrible, if you think those can bring u fast runs, i feel sry for u.

I feel sorry for you that you are speaking nonsense, not related to topic. Added to ignore list.

15k dps is doing light attacks.... so no, it is NOT gonna get you ANY fast runs if that's all the dps is pulling.

ccfeeling · April 2019

CP is not the main problem .

Players have to learn the dungeons / trial mechanics , it takes time .

Say for example , WGT Inhibitor was a real big challenge for those PUG players

* Before the DLC 4 man dungeons huge nerfing *

MartiniDaniels · April 2019

itsfatbass wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

CP is a terrible measure of DPS. Most of the CP 810's I see in random vet dungeons are pulling <10k.

I also have a low CP alt account that does over 40k on most vet dungeon bosses.

It's all border cases. From my experience, it's really rare when cp810 in random vet doesn't have 15-20k. And cp300 is usually a mess dying to single breeze of wind and doing 7-12k. Yes there are low dps cp810 and stormproof cp200 twinks. But in practice group of 4 cp700+ almost guarantees fast and easy run in any vets aside from few new ones. While group of cp200-400 usually struggles to complete HM in base1 dungeons...

Still, I agree that there is no point to limit dungeons by CP. Profoundibob's idea with "certification" is much better.

15k-20k is horrible, if you think those can bring u fast runs, i feel sry for u.

I feel sorry for you that you are speaking nonsense, not related to topic. Added to ignore list.

15k dps is doing light attacks.... so no, it is NOT gonna get you ANY fast runs if that's all the dps is pulling.

My initial sentence was about average minimal dps you will see from cp810. Since I played a lot on tanks, I can extract 10k (tank+healer) from group dps and divide what's remained on 2. So 40-50k group dps (with mechanics) is what I usually see from high CP players and this value allows to complete base vets without fuss. For dlc dungeons it's low, for dlc vet I'll say 70k group dps is minimal for things to go smooth, majority still doable at 50k too, but mechanics must be performed ideally.

Chance to see 50k, or omg 70k group dps from 2 cp300 guys is abysmally low. I remember some random stormproofs cp200-300 who were performing admirably, btw in my guild there is guy who completed VMA at cp160 on stamsorc.. but all of that is exceptions. Typical 200-300cp dps struggles to deal with mobs in time even in vet1 and is usually dead the moment when couple of mobs will turn to him. So as flawed as it is, CP is still the only indicator for pug group in PVE. IMO, ZOS should've made at least something like BG table with medals in the end of each vet, so person can at least see what impact he did and if he need to perform better.

My own dps was 10k at cp250, with 3k WD unbuffed and 30k stamina and alcast bars, it was hundings+dreugh+skoria as I remember. So I went to tanking and tanked up to cp600, when I decided to try dpsing again, it became 25k in non-trial gear. After consecutively adding BiS trial gear, maelstrom weapons and bloodthirsty jewelry, removing my own know-hows and exactly copying Alcast build now I can pull 40k self-buffed and still there is a lot of room for improvement (number of LA is 70-75% for duration). And when I pick another character in pvp setup, it's only 20k with same percent of LAs and animation cancelling.
So people may continue to tell tales that "rotation is all that matters". No, it is not, gear and CP distribution has huge impact and as you said with correct build you do 15k only by spamming light attacks. It just shows that ESO has extremely unclear formulas for how damage is calculated and even small variations from optimum lead to notable decrease of dps, so it's no chance that real first-account cp200-300 knows them if he is not some min-maxer from WoW who came exactly for raiding and was digging into all those nuances from first day.

Kombinator · April 2019

Reduce number of tanks even further.

I would prefer certification quests for low, and one for high difficulty vet. dungeons. If you can deal the right damage with 170cp and blue gear, then you are good to go, and if you can't with 450 CP, then git gud.

Tank, and healer would get their own certification quest. So at least they know their job, and has a certain minimal gear to heal/survive.

XxCaLxX · April 2019

highkingnm wrote: »

XxCaLxX wrote: »

I don’t agree. While you would think higher CP players are better it’s just not true. There should however be some sort of system to determine if you can queue for vet dungeons and even vet dlc dungeons. Maybe there should be a quest at cp160 to where you go to undaunted enclave and they have a dummy. If you can parse 20k then you can then queue for vet dungeons. When you can parse 25-30k then you can queue for vet dlc dungeons. Level isn’t the problem. I’ve gotten flawless conqueror on a cp181 is it fair that I have to wait til cp300 to queue for dlc’s when a cp400 grinded spellscar or sky reach and they can queue? Only solution I can think of is to have a quest that tests your damage and skill that qualifies you for certain content. Again I don’t disagree that it’s a problem. I just don’t think that the level is always the problem.

This is an awful system.

1) What about tanks and healers? Some healers MIGHT hit the 25k benchmark with gold weapons, perfect rotation and gear (including monster helms they can’t get until they pass that benchmark).

2) Looking forward to cheese passes and builds just for getting you through the check, but being exceptionally squishy. Damage doesn’t mean they will survive, sustain in a real environment or complement other roles.

3) Would it not be far more logical to lock the vet version until you make it through the normal? That would test skill more than a simple parse.

4) This still favours CP300+ because a lot of damage comes from gilded weapons, good dungeon/trial sets and CP.

5) DLC dungeons do not need much more damage than regular ones (same on vet), they require mechanics knowledge and playing along.

I agree with the need for change, but possibly the worst thing to do is hate it behind parses. At least a lot of low DPS players have points in health and the like (part of why they have low DPS), I’d take them if they play mechs over a 25k who is on the floor every few seconds because of a cheese build. Or who can’t hit anywhere near that because the second he has to dodge roll or play mechs he has no sustain or can’t keep damaging.

Absolutely. Any dungeon should have be completed on normal before unlocking vet but the only resemblance from normal to vet is scenery so that is almost no help at all. You’re right about the straight up dps test which is why I later said “have a test that tests your damage and skill”. I didn’t say tanks and healers had to do a dps test. Anyway I’m no dev but am a consistent player. I have an account well over 1100cp but often play my low cp account for a little more challenge and know of many more players that do also. Raising cp requirement will just bring in higher leveled grinders. Nothing changes. To your last point I agree to a degree. Mechs are very important but a skilled enough player to know vet mechs or learn them quickly will not have any dps problems anyway.

mairwen85 · April 2019

tizodd wrote: »

Again...I've never claimed that cp = skill. I've never said that. But cp is the only gauge we have of another player without actually seeing them in action. So while cp =/= skill, cp typically means a few things: The player has likely played the game a while; the player has likely obtained a decent amount of experience during that time; the player likely has, at the very least, a fundamental understanding of game mechanics; the player is likely running with a build/gearset (5/5/2 or at least 5/5).

Please don't misquote or misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying cp equals those things 100% of the time. I'm saying it's a good chance that it's the case. In my experience, 95%+ of the time, my dungeon runs go much better when teammates have higher cp. To argue that this isn't usually the case, is really being disingenuous.

People keep pointing out outliers and exceptions by saying things like "I've seen bad cp700+ dps"; or "I've seen great cp200 dps". But you've got to know that those are exceptions and not the norm...right? Typically, a higher cp player does have better gear and a better overall understanding of the game. Typically. Not always. But typically...more often than not.

It's called whataboutism; it's a means to detract from the point of debate by pointing to something outside of the crux being discussed -- it causes derailment as opposition is then forced to either accept a stance that has logically nothing to do with the central points raised, or has to fallaciously defend (or rebut) the claim. It's the equivalent of pointing over the shoulder of an advancing attacker and saying "what's that?" in the hope you can make your escape while they are distracted/looking away.

Raised for discussion by OP:

CP300 is too low for vet dlc content

Points presented:

first time players are unfamiliar with optimal cp investment
new players are unfamiliar with mechanics
lower CP can't do enough dps
lower CP has insufficent points to spend on defensive capability

Suggested Solution

Raise queue restriction to 350 - 400 range.

Counter points:

CP 300 is the limit after which CP gains dramatically reduce
CP 300 is the last passive power jump (20%)
dungeon mechanics can be practiced on normal settings or learnt from guides
350 - 400 is arbitrary and the difference to CP300 is negligable

Suggested Solution

Community has a duty to teach/aid new players and existing players should learn to work with lower CP group members, or
play only in pre-made, organised groups.

Personally, I feel that vet versions shouldn't be available until the normal version has been completed.

Mizael · April 2019

Unfortunaly the Cp cap won't solve the problem, if PUGs don't know rotation or have no idea of mechanics they gotta learn it.If they are willing to learn try to link then some YT guides for their class

Androconium · April 2019

tizodd wrote: »

Players should need to be cp350+400 to queue for vets. I'm so tired of slowly drudging through vets with low cp dps. And no, I'm not some elitist who forgot where he came from...I got my feet wet on normals before getting into vets because I figured I'd be nothing more than a leech until I got some decent gear sets and higher cp. I didn't do my first vet until I was cp400+.

Now...I know that people like to be contrary and disagree for the sake of disagreeing but please hear me out and think about it logically before jumping at the chance to argue. Having a cp10 player in a vet dungeon is largely a waste of time (I got grouped with a cp10 today). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed if friends want to try their luck at low cp. By all means, a pre-formed group should have the freedom to try if they want to. But for dungeon finder, there really should be a minimum cp for vet dungeons.

Lately I've been leaving when I get grouped with two low cp dps'ers in a vet. I just don't feel like wasting all the time reviving them and/or waiting for them to do enough dps to actually kill things.

Well done. You resolved the problem by yourself.

Slunksters · April 2019

tizodd wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

I do get you, kind of. But got to see what they do before you leave?

For example a friend of mine bought and 2nd account for the jollies, we managed to do vet cradel of shadows with a no death run and they were cp 65! Because they knew what they were doing.

Unless I'm really pressed for time, I do give them a chance to prove they can pull their weight.

On a related note (this isn't directed at you Chaos2088): Commenters in this thread keep mentioning exceptions where higher cp dps is pulling low numbers, or low cp dps is pulling high numbers but their arguments are really disingenuous. It feels like arguing for the sake of arguing. They're pointing out outliers and exceptions like those are the norms. It's like saying sometimes cars crash, so getting in a car is essentially suicide.

Anyone who's had a decent amount of experience running vets knows the truth. It's usually the low cp dps who ends up not pulling their weight. Pointing out the few exceptions in an attempt to and strengthen your argument is not doing your argument any justice. You're grasping at straws.

I 100% agree that, cp =/= skill. I've never stated otherwise. But it would be unwise for any of us to claim that cp never means anything at all. 9 times out of 10, cp means the person has spent a lot of time playing the game; has done a decent amount of things in the game; and has some basic knowledge of the game. This is USUALLY (more often than not) the case. Low cp usually means the person has less game experience/knowledge and probably hasn't optimized their build/gear sets. Again...I'm not saying this is the situation 100% of the time, but we can safely and logically say it's usually the case.

If you had any experience in dungeon, you would know CP is irrelevant and it'd z gamble to queue for random vet, the best you can hope for is that those people that barely do anything will listen to advices.

There is a reason why the "1000 CP bow light attack / snipe" build is know by almost every player in this game. Random vet is just a gamble and you hope that your group will be able to listen to advices.

I almost queue daily for multiple random vet, when not on my DD, I'm happy with 15k group DPS, that's how low my expectations are from the queue. But as frustrating as it is, it is enough to complete most vet if people play the mechanics.

Slunksters · April 2019

Tannus15 wrote: »

One of the problems with CP is that people give it more weight than it deserves.

people seem to think that the difference between cp 300 and cp 810 is an additional 30k dps. It's nuts.
If you're doing < 20k dps at 250cp, you'll still be doing <20k dps at cp 810 unless you actually spend some time learning how the game works mechanically.
ESO has a very specific combat and gearing system and unless you setup correctly you're going to have a bad time. You don't have to have a flawless rotation with an amazing light attack / second ratio, but you DO need to know how the timers for your dots line up and what a spammable is and a basic understanding of what light attack weaving is.

Go check a normal hodor vMoL, go check their no 300 CP run, then dare to come back saying CP barely does a thing on DPS xD

mairwen85 · April 2019

Slunksters wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

One of the problems with CP is that people give it more weight than it deserves.

people seem to think that the difference between cp 300 and cp 810 is an additional 30k dps. It's nuts.
If you're doing < 20k dps at 250cp, you'll still be doing <20k dps at cp 810 unless you actually spend some time learning how the game works mechanically.
ESO has a very specific combat and gearing system and unless you setup correctly you're going to have a bad time. You don't have to have a flawless rotation with an amazing light attack / second ratio, but you DO need to know how the timers for your dots line up and what a spammable is and a basic understanding of what light attack weaving is.

Go check a normal hodor vMoL, go check their no 300 CP run, then dare to come back saying CP barely does a thing on DPS xD

@Slunksters

and... ?

@Tannus15 is pointing out that unless a player knows how to play their class/role, and perform a proper rotation, CP level will make little difference to their actual dps output.

Your post says that capable players are able to complete vet content without CP, but dps output is lower than runs with CP.

The two points do not intersect on anything other than you presenting that experienced players are capable of completing vet content with or without CP.

Slunksters · April 2019

My point is that CP do make a big difference , and it does have its weight, someone not using it properly another matter.

It's like saying that driving a sportbike and a bicycle is the same speedwise, and that people give too much credit to the sport bike added speed.

I fully agree with the statement about learning how to damage is what make you... Well... Do damage, but disregarding CP is entirely wrong, wether it is damage wise or resistance wise, the difference between cp 300 and 810 is more than noticeable.

LadySinflower · April 2019

Here we go again. Too many people have no tolerance or patience to play with others in a game designed to be played with others. You don't get to tell that CP200 that he has no right to try vet content. Don't you realize that everybody has to have a chance to learn the mechanics before they just KNOW? So by your account if I join a pug in a vet dungeon as a first-timer I'm just a leech? If I don't have a guild house equipped with a parsing dummy I'm a leech? If my build doesn't live up to your standards I'm a leech? You get any variety and quality of people in pug situations. Not everyone has guildies or an awesome teaching buddy to run with. The only way they can learn is to get in there and try. Then we get threads like this which do intimidate players who are already self-conscious about their skills in the first place. It's a video game. Can't stand to run with anyone lower than your elitist standards? Don't pug. If you insist on continuing to pug with an attitude like that, take a valium. Have some fun and give noobs the benefit of that superior knowledge you're so smug about. If you teach instead of complain, maybe the quality of skills will improve in your average pug. Just sayin.

idk · April 2019

D0PAMINE wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Odnoc wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

CP is a terrible measure of DPS. Most of the CP 810's I see in random vet dungeons are pulling <10k.

I also have a low CP alt account that does over 40k on most vet dungeon bosses.

It's all border cases. From my experience, it's really rare when cp810 in random vet doesn't have 15-20k. And cp300 is usually a mess dying to single breeze of wind and doing 7-12k. Yes there are low dps cp810 and stormproof cp200 twinks. But in practice group of 4 cp700+ almost guarantees fast and easy run in any vets aside from few new ones. While group of cp200-400 usually struggles to complete HM in base1 dungeons...

Still, I agree that there is no point to limit dungeons by CP. Profoundibob's idea with "certification" is much better.

15k-20k is horrible, if you think those can bring u fast runs, i feel sry for u.

I feel sorry for you that you have trouble clearing with that DPS, I've had plenty of fast runs in that range. Sounds like you have a crappy tank/healer.

And I really feel sorry for you for bringing nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic into the topic.

First, look at the name of the person you quoted. With troll in the name I take it for what it is.

However, while 15-20k dps is fine for clearing most vet dungeons, players with that low dps are more often not very good with mechanics. Also, someone like myself can easily get players that do not go as low as 40k dps on a bad day.

To the point concerning this thread, CP is not an indicator of how well someone will play. I have never kicked someone or left a group because of low CP players. I have seen low CP players do well and CP capped players play pitiful.

So many times getting groups of pitiful players who did not want to learn how to do a fight is why I stopped queueing solo as a tank. I do not have to so why.

And that is a big part of it. The CP 200-300 who follows mechanics, is a decent player who got decent gear and is trying to progress gets shafted if the cap were raised, and when they finally get to the minimum cap, it's just wasted time spent grindimg to do something they could have done earlier. Then you get those same CP 200-300 players grouped with players their own level helping them improve as well.

Of course, however the people that try to make the argument to raise the CP cap are questionable players to begin with.

What is funny is myself, and many players I know have alt accounts where we did not have the benefit of CP on the first character. We have shared stories about how after reaching level 50 we often out DPSed the entire group that was CP caped or near CP cap. Some of those times as the healer.

TheInfernalRage · April 2019

Yesterday we carried a CP 300+ DPS in Vet Selene's HM. In the last boss, he started running around like a headless chicken, so he ended up watching us take the last boss from his "dead" position.

His greatest mistake: (1) staying behind the healer almost all the time; and (2) he literally thought he can survive by hiding behind the tank, which of course did not end well.

Experience, the ability to learn, and less carrying -- more important than CP.

JJBoomer · April 2019

Starlock wrote: »

If I have a problem with how another player is playing, that’s entirely my fault. It is unreasonable for me to demand other players conform to my personal expectations. The solution is for me to get over myself, or to leave.

You have the same options.

This. 100%

Also, the dungeon finder is for everyone to use. That is the public option and should not be altered to be exclusionary for your or anyone's comfort. If you don't want to experience these issues, then YOU need to be the one making pre-made groups with friends that you know won't have issues with the content.

But if you're going to PUG, then yes, those are the risks you have agreed to. If you don't like it, then don't use it. Simple.

idk · April 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

tizodd wrote: »

Again...I've never claimed that cp = skill. I've never said that. But cp is the only gauge we have of another player without actually seeing them in action. So while cp =/= skill, cp typically means a few things: The player has likely played the game a while; the player has likely obtained a decent amount of experience during that time; the player likely has, at the very least, a fundamental understanding of game mechanics; the player is likely running with a build/gearset (5/5/2 or at least 5/5).

Please don't misquote or misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying cp equals those things 100% of the time. I'm saying it's a good chance that it's the case. In my experience, 95%+ of the time, my dungeon runs go much better when teammates have higher cp. To argue that this isn't usually the case, is really being disingenuous.

People keep pointing out outliers and exceptions by saying things like "I've seen bad cp700+ dps"; or "I've seen great cp200 dps". But you've got to know that those are exceptions and not the norm...right? Typically, a higher cp player does have better gear and a better overall understanding of the game. Typically. Not always. But typically...more often than not.

It's called whataboutism; it's a means to detract from the point of debate by pointing to something outside of the crux being discussed -- it causes derailment as opposition is then forced to either accept a stance that has logically nothing to do with the central points raised, or has to fallaciously defend (or rebut) the claim. It's the equivalent of pointing over the shoulder of an advancing attacker and saying "what's that?" in the hope you can make your escape while they are distracted/looking away.

Raised for discussion by OP:

CP300 is too low for vet dlc content

Points presented:
first time players are unfamiliar with optimal cp investment

new players are unfamiliar with mechanics

lower CP can't do enough dps

lower CP has insufficent points to spend on defensive capability

Suggested Solution

Raise queue restriction to 350 - 400 range.

Counter points:
CP 300 is the limit after which CP gains dramatically reduce

CP 300 is the last passive power jump (20%)

dungeon mechanics can be practiced on normal settings or learnt from guides

350 - 400 is arbitrary and the difference to CP300 is negligable

Suggested Solution

Community has a duty to teach/aid new players and existing players should learn to work with lower CP group members, or
play only in pre-made, organised groups.

Personally, I feel that vet versions shouldn't be available until the normal version has been completed.

This is not what OP raised for discussion. OP wants the minimum requirement for all vet dungeons raised to CP 350-400. They do not mention DLC dungeons once in the OP. It is clear that OP is talking about the easiest CP dungeons. This is an absurd suggestion.

It is also clear OP needs to form their own group since they are challenged with the groups they get in GF.

Further, your idea is just as absurd. First of all, you are not going to tell me, someone who has cleared all vet content in the game, who clears vet of the new DLC dungeons before clearing the normal version, that I have to clear normal before going into vet.

Besides that, it is a nonsensical suggestion because most normal dungeon mechanics are to weak to have meaning. It does near nothing to prepare a player for the vet version.

Again, players that have issues with who they get paired with via GF need to form their own group. It is very easy to do and eliminates the elitist threads like this one.

CP does not equate to skill in any manner and clearing the normal version of a dungeon does little, and in many cases nothing, to prepare a player for vet. It really is that simple.

Fluke.Slywalker · April 2019

I started a thread similar to this today, before noticing this thread.

It's an ongoing issue, it's more for the DLC dungeons IMO, if you're queuing for vanilla vet dungeons, even the II's, you should be able to compete.

The problem is with DLC, they are much harder and mechanic driven.

Not too sure what can be done, as I said in my thread, it's just as annoying for the guy who's dragging behind I'm sure, having been plonked down on his daily XP dungeon, into vet Fang lair or something.

I think imposing a DPS test ahead of each queue is quite ridiculous. But I can't think of much else that would stop this.

Maybe the queue for DLC content should be separate from vanilla content. Even the older DLC stuff, Cradle, ICP is F'ing hard on vet hm.

Queue for normal, queue for vet, queue for normal DLC, queue for vet DLC. If this was the case then the only person to blame for this happening would be the person queuing for that which he/she is not able to do, and then should be kicked.

That - or they make the queue lobby visible to players, so you can at least leave the lobby before forming group.

redlink1979 · April 2019

Most people aren't aware about the 300cp frontier and what it means.

mairwen85 · April 2019

Slunksters wrote: »

My point is that CP do make a big difference , and it does have its weight, someone not using it properly another matter.

It's like saying that driving a sportbike and a bicycle is the same speedwise, and that people give too much credit to the sport bike added speed.

I fully agree with the statement about learning how to damage is what make you... Well... Do damage, but disregarding CP is entirely wrong, wether it is damage wise or resistance wise, the difference between cp 300 and 810 is more than noticeable.

Agreed -- it does make a difference, but in my experience, that difference is mostly noticeable in defensive capability for a dps, and incidental damage for tank and healer. It's almost as if the more you push CP the more it fills in the weaknesses to your class/role --- hmmm... /s

@idk

I'm not disagreeing with you. I agree with you -- which should be clear from my posts. I only have a differing, what some might refer to as absurd, opinion on one thing:

I've said several times in many threads that there needs to be a new difficulty tier for dlc dungeons => normal does nothing to prepare players for vet content because of the huge disparity in difficulty.