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Why not an vampire lord FORM that you takes sunshine damage
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L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »[
Yeah... that's a masquerade violation. Also, in case you missed it, you cannot play a Tremere in The Elder Scrolls Online. This is because Clan Tremere does not exist in The Elder Scrolls Online, or in The Elder Scrolls at all. Even at that point, holding up an ability from Thaumaturgy as an example of vampire powers is misleading in the extreme, because that's not a traditional Cainite discipline, which doesn't matter for ESO because old World of Darkness has nothing to do with The Elder Scrolls.
I know. Only mentioned it because is a cool skill that should exist in other games(ESO included), and even in ESO, you can range feed, can range drain blood and do other stuff that is often associated with vampiric Thaumaturgy. In fact, your vampirism on ESO is in most aspects stronger than previous games Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion has no mistform, no ranged feed, no ranged drain health(...) compared to skyrim vampire lord, you only miss the ranged AOE drain, summon gargoyle and the slow time.
And honestly, time manipulation is broken in any MP game. Time stop is often limited or removed on most nwn1 servers. And the direct drain stuns the enemy. So, if you can use an POLYMORPH to vampire lord, you already have 75% of what i an suggesting. Good to mention, there was an Werewolf lord polymortph.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvNWg3krnw Edited by L0rdV1ct0r on March 19, 2019 7:26PM2 -
Reistr_the_Unbroken✭✭✭✭✭
✭So where’s the facts that we’re even part of lamaes bloodline? For all we know we could have an entirely different strand from hers0 -
Prof_Bawbag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Sunlight Damage really only works in games where the player can [WAIT 12 HOURS] so they can play only at night if they want and taking sunlight damage is an actual consequence to choosing to play in the daytime.
In ESO, players can't control the day/night cycle at all. So you'd be locked out of your form or debuffed based on something you can't control at all, which makes it much less interesting for a gameplay choice and eliminates the "consequence".
"Ooh, I can't wait to play my powerful vampire Lord!"
*logs on just as morning dawns*
"Seriously?!"
Go in a dungeon and test your vampire lord.
About wait, as i've said, drink blood and lower your vampire stageCMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »(...)
*Reasons being that too many people only played Skyrim and not the other TES games.
As i've said, i have over 400 hours of Morrowind. I mentioned on my thread how vampirism works in Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Quoting for your own source
"Vampires that have been given their condition directly from the Daedric Prince Molag Bal are known as pure-bloods or Daughters of Coldharbour if they are female. Due to their unique nature pure-bloods enjoy greater status among their kind and will usually hold their "half-breed" descendants in low regard. Pure-bloods are likely the main reason for the various strains of vampire bloodlines as the vampirism the Daedric Prince endows varies from individual to individual; the only notable exception to this is the ancient Volkihar clan, whose entire family was given the same strain."
Since in ESO you follow the Lamae's Bloodline
"Lamae is seemingly responsible for the creation of several other bloodlines aside from her own, whether this ability is unique to her as the first vampire or a seemingly potent ability of her bloodline to create a sub-bloodline is unknown."
edit My suggestion is that the "new type of vampirism" can only be archived after maxing the base vampirism.
Hmmmm Your suggestions are getting more ridiculous as you post. Say you only get 3 hours play time a-day, would you want to spend that entire time in a single inane dungeon? Maybe you would, but the vast majority of people would rather stick hot needles in their eyes. Seriously, go stand in a delve for 3 hours and then post your boredom results.Edited by Prof_Bawbag on March 19, 2019 7:36PM4 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »So where’s the facts that we’re even part of lamaes bloodline? For all we know we could have an entirely different strand from hers
Going through the ritual associated with her bloodline. I mean, it's possible that we're not, technically, members of the bloodline, but have been adopted. Though, given the available information, it seems more likely that we simply are part of her bloodline.1 -
Reistr_the_Unbroken✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »So where’s the facts that we’re even part of lamaes bloodline? For all we know we could have an entirely different strand from hers
Going through the ritual associated with her bloodline. I mean, it's possible that we're not, technically, members of the bloodline, but have been adopted. Though, given the available information, it seems more likely that we simply are part of her bloodline.
I guess probably got confused when I read about Molag possibly making some other bloodlines
0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »[
Yeah... that's a masquerade violation. Also, in case you missed it, you cannot play a Tremere in The Elder Scrolls Online. This is because Clan Tremere does not exist in The Elder Scrolls Online, or in The Elder Scrolls at all. Even at that point, holding up an ability from Thaumaturgy as an example of vampire powers is misleading in the extreme, because that's not a traditional Cainite discipline, which doesn't matter for ESO because old World of Darkness has nothing to do with The Elder Scrolls.
I know. Only mentioned it because is a cool skill that should exist in other games(ESO included), and even in ESO, you can range feed, can range drain blood and do other stuff that is often associated with vampiric Thaumaturgy. In fact, your vampirism on ESO is in most aspects stronger than previous games Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion has no mistform, no ranged feed, no ranged drain health(...) compared to skyrim vampire lord, you only miss the ranged AOE drain, summon gargoyle and the slow time.
And honestly, time manipulation is broken in any MP game. Time stop is often limited or removed on most nwn1 servers. And the direct drain stuns the enemy. So, if you can use an POLYMORPH to vampire lord, you already have 75% of what i an suggesting. Good to mention, there was an Werewolf lord polymortph.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvNWg3krnw
If you're trying to justify this from the perspective of Masquerade, the Vampire Lord transform is very similar to the six dot Vicissitude power, Chiropteran Marauder. Given our vampires have no other abilities that even remotely resemble Vicissitude powers... that's a hard route to make the argument. And of course, for giggles, if we're talking about Masquerade, Vicissitude and Thaumaturgy are mutually exclusive. You can't have both disciplines on the same vampire, because they're exclusive to two separate clans. (And, yes, before you ask, The Sheriff is from a Tzimisce bloodline. The game never makes it explicit, but if you're familiar enough with the setting, it's pretty obvious.)
Yeah, you don't have a coherent argument here, just a lot of, "I want!"
"But, look, your character can cosplay as Vykosa, so clearly, I should be able to have this earth shattering power."0 -
OmniDo✭✭✭✭✭Cillion3117 wrote: »Sun damage was fine in single player when you could just fast forward to night. But in an MMO it's just not practical.
Can't agree with you there.
In Oblivion, one had to either let actual time pass while in a shelter and wait for nightfall, or they would simply die.
In an MMO, you have the luxury of escaping the wrath of the sun rather easily with various shelters, special clothing, or simply riding off away from the approaching dawn into an underground network of caves.
The reason its not really feasible is because Tamriel (Z0$) didnt design their world with real physics in mind.
When its daytime somewhere in Tamriel, its Daytime EVERYWHERE, which is just stupid.
If they made the Sun orbit around Tamriel, then there would always be half of Tamriel covered in darkness for vampires to escape to.
To say nothing of underground travel networks, caves, etc... that Vampires could traverse in adventures.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »So where’s the facts that we’re even part of lamaes bloodline? For all we know we could have an entirely different strand from hers
Going through the ritual associated with her bloodline. I mean, it's possible that we're not, technically, members of the bloodline, but have been adopted. Though, given the available information, it seems more likely that we simply are part of her bloodline.
I guess probably got confused when I read about Molag possibly making some other bloodlines
Yeah, there are multiple bloodlines. It's not entirely clear if they're all derived directly from Molat Bal, or if they split off from other bloodlines in some way. This is more confusing because back in TES3 and 4, they didn't talk about bloodlines, but clans, and in Online, we can see that Quarra Clan came from someone who was infected by the Berne Clan in the second era. While the clans are very similar, they do have some distinct traits. So it's possible that individuals may have some influence on their vampirism, or it's possible all three Vvardenfell Clans are part of the same bloodline, with minor variations.
Volkihar appears to be an entirely distinct bloodline coming directly from Molag Bal. It's entirely possible there are other bloodlines that were started this way, which would explain some of the differences between documented vampires.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cillion3117 wrote: »Sun damage was fine in single player when you could just fast forward to night. But in an MMO it's just not practical.
Can't agree with you there.
In Oblivion, one had to either let actual time pass while in a shelter and wait for nightfall, or they would simply die.
In an MMO, you have the luxury of escaping the wrath of the sun rather easily with various shelters, special clothing, or simply riding off away from the approaching dawn into an underground network of caves.
Oblivion did give you the option to advance time, though I forget exactly what the conditions were.The reason its not really feasible is because Tamriel (Z0$) didnt design their world with real physics in mind.
When its daytime somewhere in Tamriel, its Daytime EVERYWHERE, which is just stupid.
If they made the Sun orbit around Tamriel, then there would always be half of Tamriel covered in darkness for vampires to escape to.
If we go by TES2: Daggerfall, and assume that Nirn is roughly the size of earth, then there should only be a three hour difference between the east and west coasts. Tamriel is roughly the size of Australia, it's not that big. Given the time compression is 1:4, that means there should be about a 45 minute difference between when the sun sets in Alinor, and when it sets in Mournhold. Granted, it would be a really cool detail if the game actually did this, but, most people would likely never notice.Edited by starkerealm on March 19, 2019 8:13PM0 -
L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭Prof_Bawbag wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Sunlight Damage really only works in games where the player can [WAIT 12 HOURS] so they can play only at night if they want and taking sunlight damage is an actual consequence to choosing to play in the daytime.
In ESO, players can't control the day/night cycle at all. So you'd be locked out of your form or debuffed based on something you can't control at all, which makes it much less interesting for a gameplay choice and eliminates the "consequence".
"Ooh, I can't wait to play my powerful vampire Lord!"
*logs on just as morning dawns*
"Seriously?!"
Go in a dungeon and test your vampire lord.
About wait, as i've said, drink blood and lower your vampire stageCMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »(...)
*Reasons being that too many people only played Skyrim and not the other TES games.
As i've said, i have over 400 hours of Morrowind. I mentioned on my thread how vampirism works in Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Quoting for your own source
"Vampires that have been given their condition directly from the Daedric Prince Molag Bal are known as pure-bloods or Daughters of Coldharbour if they are female. Due to their unique nature pure-bloods enjoy greater status among their kind and will usually hold their "half-breed" descendants in low regard. Pure-bloods are likely the main reason for the various strains of vampire bloodlines as the vampirism the Daedric Prince endows varies from individual to individual; the only notable exception to this is the ancient Volkihar clan, whose entire family was given the same strain."
Since in ESO you follow the Lamae's Bloodline
"Lamae is seemingly responsible for the creation of several other bloodlines aside from her own, whether this ability is unique to her as the first vampire or a seemingly potent ability of her bloodline to create a sub-bloodline is unknown."
edit My suggestion is that the "new type of vampirism" can only be archived after maxing the base vampirism.
Hmmmm Your suggestions are getting more ridiculous as you post. Say you only get 3 hours play time a-day, would you want to spend that entire time in a single inane dungeon? Maybe you would, but the vast majority of people would rather stick hot needles in their eyes. Seriously, go stand in a delve for 3 hours and then post your boredom results.
As i've said. "use blood potions or feed to lower your vapmirism stage" And that i an only in favor of sun damage for you while in vampire lord for or if you are in stage 3/4. Maybe 2 in very sunny areas.
I should have made it more clear.starkerealm wrote: »
Yeah, you don't have a coherent argument here, just a lot of, "I want!"
"But, look, your character can cosplay as Vykosa, so clearly, I should be able to have this earth shattering power."
No, will make the vampire more similar to waht people expect from vampirism, more closer to previous games and will bring more consequences. I only mentioned vtmb to illustrate how some skill suggestions should work.
Anyway, looks like wanna have an new transformation for vampires just like werewolf players has and a lot of people liked on previous game and wanna the same power as one of the hardest bosses is the same thing /sarcasm
I an going to be busy. Later i answer the restEdited by L0rdV1ct0r on March 19, 2019 8:02PM0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Hmmmm Your suggestions are getting more ridiculous as you post. Say you only get 3 hours play time a-day, would you want to spend that entire time in a single inane dungeon? Maybe you would, but the vast majority of people would rather stick hot needles in their eyes. Seriously, go stand in a delve for 3 hours and then post your boredom results.
I mean, technically, it's in three hour intervals, four times a day. Because, nothing says immersion like having to check the clock before I log in, to see if my character will be char broiled on the other side of the login screen.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »As i've said. "use blood potions or feed to lower your vapmirism stage" And that i an only in favor of sun damage for you while in vampire lord for or if you are in stage 3/4. Maybe 2 in very sunny areas.
I should have made it more clear.
Doesn't matter. If you accidentally log in at the wrong time, your character is fried to a crisp. Bonus points that if you log out in a friend's house, you'll be deposited at the last open world location you were standing before entering an instance.
"Oh, you crashed, right..." *burning noises on the load screen*
But, I mean, I love the idea of having to burn off my food buff in order to use Double Bloody Maras to avoid dying horrifically. That's nice.4 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cillion3117 wrote: »Sun damage was fine in single player when you could just fast forward to night. But in an MMO it's just not practical.
Can't agree with you there.
In Oblivion, one had to either let actual time pass while in a shelter and wait for nightfall, or they would simply die.
In an MMO, you have the luxury of escaping the wrath of the sun rather easily with various shelters, special clothing, or simply riding off away from the approaching dawn into an underground network of caves.
The reason its not really feasible is because Tamriel (Z0$) didnt design their world with real physics in mind.
When its daytime somewhere in Tamriel, its Daytime EVERYWHERE, which is just stupid.
If they made the Sun orbit around Tamriel, then there would always be half of Tamriel covered in darkness for vampires to escape to.
To say nothing of underground travel networks, caves, etc... that Vampires could traverse in adventures.
Er, we're all on one continent. Tamriel. So its not that strange that its daytime on that one continent. Sure, they could stagger mornings/evenings by a bit, but since the day/night cycle is 6 hours (according to Support), that's not going to make a huge difference.
Moreover, as ESO is currently designed to not give players the option to change their time of day, there's really not the ability to escape the sun.
"Oh, go do dungeons! Delves! Stay inside!"
Uh huh. That really solves the problem of people wanting to play the game in their vampire lord form. No, it really doesn't. Not to mention PVP. If its daytime in Cyrodiil, prepare to get fried by the sun! There's not too many places to hide out if you actually want to PVP in Cyrodiil, unless you really like hiding inside the inner keep waiting for the enemy to attack.
Nor does "special clothing" or lowering your vampirism level or drinking blood really help all that much. That may let you mitigate the debuffs/damage, but it doesn't give anywhere near the freedom to actually play your vampire lord form as you get in Skyrim where you can [WAIT 12 HOURS]. I mean, the point is to actually play a Vampire Lord, not a vaguely more powerful vampire than the current in game version (in which case, why not just ask for buffs to the current vampire?)
But this is all a little academic, because chief among the things that would need to be re-balanced is ESO's day/night cycle. Day and night aren't equal. The nighttime is considerably shorter than the daytime, which works against this suggestion if the period of debuffs/damage is much greater than the times you can actually use your vampire lord form.
In short, ZOS would have to rebalance and redesign a lot of things for this to actually work for players and not be a little used and annoying gimmick.Edited by VaranisArano on March 19, 2019 8:25PM2 -
Rake✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭>complaining about vampires not burning or sparkling in the sun
>forgetting you are vestige
>mfw1 -
notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Another relevant factor that @L0rdV1ct0r may have missed.
Vampire Lords are exceedingly rare. So rare, in fact, that they do not appear at all in any existing Vampire literature (even post-Skyrim.) We know of 4 canonically, and while there may be others, there are not many.
So we have an incredibly reclusive creature, that is also extremely powerful, and quite rare.
So, having, literally thousands, of them running around, transforming in towns, getting into fights with guards, and losing, would seriously diminish the impact of these creatures. It doesn't mean they'll never change their mind, but Vampire Lords are not common enough to be a good fit with players.
Yes, you are right. But there aren't tons of players that had contact with the first vampire?
Or worse. An entire army of Molag Bal slayers?? Fighting another 2 armies of molag bal slayers?
Think that once you reached the level cap of a skill line, you reached the peak of power of that skill line. So, an vmapire that completely mastered his base vampiric powers archive vampire lord is not "lore unfriendly"
I think you're misunderstanding something. We meet the first vampire, Lamae Bal. That does not mean that we are the first vampire..
I never said that we are the first vampire. I just said that have contact with the first vampire, an creature of legends is not something trivial.
As for Lamae Bal, you got infected by the mother of all vampires that spawned almost all lineages.
Also " One particular way of acquiring this strand of vampirism is through the Rite of the Scion, a ritual in which a mortal's blood is fully replaced by that of Lamae's" https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampire#Lamae.27s_Bloodline
So, is the blood of the first vampire in your veins. Is not the blood of an lesser vampire. Even if you assume that the concept of "generation" works in elder scrolls universe, Lamae is first generation and you is second. Also, how someone capable ot defeating an Daedric Prince in his own domain can be considered an "lesser vampire"?notimetocare wrote: »You are not a pure blood Volkihar vampire, you are a Scion of Lamae Bal.
In game either you are infected by a feral vampire or a player that was. You are pond scum among vampires. How would you manage to take the form of a pure blood vampire or a separate strain?
And that is all setting aside the abhorrent design of skills you suggest
Again. On Skyrim you are not a pure blood vampire and can assume vampire lord form. Why? Because pure blood vampires get his vampirism direct from Molag bal. "The difference between pure-bloods and their descendents other than their origins, status, and purity is that they may possess additional abilities. Appearance-wise they will look the same as the other vampires in their respective bloodline. The progeny and grand-progeny of a pure-blood may retain their additional abilities but will still be regarded as lower than their sire and grandsire." https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampire
Also, the blood in your beins is Lamae blood and "Lamae is seemingly responsible for the creation of several other bloodlines aside from her own, whether this ability is unique to her as the first vampire or a seemingly potent ability of her bloodline to create a sub-bloodline is unknown." https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampire#Lamae.27s_Bloodline
As for my "skill selection", how my skill selection is bad? Direct damage, CC, summon and a cool ultimate. Blood boil is a cool ability. This is not cool?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZWAbkABMAg
EDIT
What separates a Scion from a mere vampire?
A vampire is a victim. They are poor creatures suffering from a disease. Scions are blessed by the Blood Matron directly. More potent is their blood. More terrible is their wrath. More beautiful is their visage.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Rite_of_the_Scion
If fairness, I was being lazy, but you are given the gift directly from a pure blood. Think of human genetics. Half black half white is very distinct from 'my great great grandmother is black'.
The skills are bad because, most specific, the numbers. Especially vamp lord1 -
Shardaxx✭✭✭✭✭I like the idea but they'd need to even out the day/night cycle a bit, at the moment its day far longer than night.PS4 - Europe - Shardaxx - Wood Elf Nightblade - Aldmeri Dominion3 -
L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »[
Doesn't matter. If you accidentally log in at the wrong time, your character is fried to a crisp. Bonus points that if you log out in a friend's house, you'll be deposited at the last open world location you were standing before entering an instance.
"Oh, you crashed, right..." *burning noises on the load screen*
But, I mean, I love the idea of having to burn off my food buff in order to use Double Bloody Maras to avoid dying horrifically. That's nice.
Did you played previous games as a vampire? The sun damage is not enough to kill you in few seconds. Even in Morrowind that has one of the most punishing type of vampirism, you will only gonna take 5 pts of damage per second if you are exposed to 1pm clear sun(maybe i an wrong, din't played morrowind as a vampire for long years). You will not be insta vaporized to ashes even in morrowind. Assuming that your character have 150hp, is 30 seconds that you can sustain yourself in sun without potions and anything else. And you can use healing potions, enchanted items and spells to heal and increase your survivability. Not mentioning, teleporting spellsnotimetocare wrote: »
The skills are bad because, most specific, the numbers. Especially vamp lord
I din't mentioned numbers for the skills.Edited by L0rdV1ct0r on March 20, 2019 1:53AM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It is not the way ESO designed it. It would make it more complicated which is probably not what Zos wanted. Pretty simple since this is not a single player game.1 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »InvictusApollo wrote: »I'm against sunshine damage.
Why? Great power should come with great cost. You should't be able to assume an vampire lord form in a midday 50ºC desert without any consequence
But he's a Lord not some average vampire. Also just wouldn't work with eso combat and design.Edited by Tasear on March 20, 2019 2:00AM2 -
L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »(...)
If fairness, I was being lazy, but you are given the gift directly from a pure blood. Think of human genetics. Half black half white is very distinct from 'my great great grandmother is black'.
The skills are bad because, most specific, the numbers. Especially vamp lord
Talking about IRL things for a fantastic universe, i an "south american" but my father was blonde, green eyed and pale skinned. My mother was the typical Iberian looking woman with white skin but dark hair/eyes, i was born with blonde hair but my hair darkened with time. But my skin is very weak to sun.
I will post an photo of my skin after a little sun in Santa Catarina state. The sun in that state is far less punishing than in Rio de Janeiro or other hot as hell places in south america.
The unique place in South America that the sun wasn't a problem, was Bariloche in Argentina ( photos here : https://imgur.com/a/oy0ngie ) and yes, i live in "southern cone", not exactly the hottest place of the continent. Considering it, i IRL being more weak to sun than a vampire in ESO is just silly. Be an pale nordic at with stage 4 vampirism walking at 1pm in mid of the hammerfell desert is just silly. Like sparkling vampire in teenager novels.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »Considering it, i IRL being more weak to sun than a vampire in ESO is just silly. Be an pale nordic at with stage 4 vampirism walking at 1pm in mid of the hammerfell desert is just silly.
Worth remembering that Lamae's bloodline specifically has sunlight immunity as one of their characteristics.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »Like sparkling vampire in teenager novels.
Much as I hate to defend any of Stephanie Meyer's work, it's not like she invented the idea of vampires who were not destroyed by sunlight. While I'm not sure on the full history of sunlight vulnerability, but Dracula, was able to remain active during the day in the original Stoker novel. So, vampires turning to ash on contact with sunlight isn't universally a part of the lit. I'm not even going to touch the folklore, because that's a quagmire none of us will escape from.Edited by starkerealm on March 20, 2019 3:40AM3 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »[
Doesn't matter. If you accidentally log in at the wrong time, your character is fried to a crisp. Bonus points that if you log out in a friend's house, you'll be deposited at the last open world location you were standing before entering an instance.
"Oh, you crashed, right..." *burning noises on the load screen*
But, I mean, I love the idea of having to burn off my food buff in order to use Double Bloody Maras to avoid dying horrifically. That's nice.
Did you played previous games as a vampire?
I have. Apparently more recently than you.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »The sun damage is not enough to kill you in few seconds. Even in Morrowind that has one of the most punishing type of vampirism, you will only gonna take 5 pts of damage per second if you are exposed to 1pm clear sun(maybe i an wrong, din't played morrowind as a vampire for long years). You will not be insta vaporized to ashes even in morrowind. Assuming that your character have 150hp, is 30 seconds that you can sustain yourself in sun without potions and anything else. And you can use healing potions, enchanted items and spells to heal and increase your survivability. Not mentioning, teleporting spells
In TES3, 150hp indicates a fairly significant commitment to increasing your Endurance. By no means, impossible, and you'll see that on a front line fighter, but if your character was stealthy, it could easily be as low as 30-40.
Furthermore, 30 seconds is not a lot of time to find cover in TES3. The same's true in ESO (so far as that goes.) If you zone in out in the middle of nowhere, with nothing to shield you from the sun, that could easily be a death sentence, even if you can instantly orient yourself, and know where to run.
Finally, in TES3, you couldn't recover health from potions as a vampire. You could use self-heals, and you could drain life from your foes with absorb health spells, but potions were a no-go. Combine this with the fact that Morrowind had a spell failure chance, and a non-regenerating magicka pool, and... yeah, that's a bit harsher than you seem to remember.0 -
L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »Considering it, i IRL being more weak to sun than a vampire in ESO is just silly. Be an pale nordic at with stage 4 vampirism walking at 1pm in mid of the hammerfell desert is just silly.
Worth remembering that Lamae's bloodline specifically has sunlight immunity as one of their characteristics.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »Like sparkling vampire in teenager novels.
Much as I hate to defend any of Stephanie Meyer's work, it's not like she invented the idea of vampires who were not destroyed by sunlight. While I'm not sure on the full history of sunlight vulnerability, Dracula, was able to remain active during the day in the original Stoker novel. So, vampires turning to ash on contact with sunlight isn't universally a part of the lit. I'm not even going to touch the folklore, because that's a quagmire none of us will escape from.starkerealm wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »Considering it, i IRL being more weak to sun than a vampire in ESO is just silly. Be an pale nordic at with stage 4 vampirism walking at 1pm in mid of the hammerfell desert is just silly.
Worth remembering that Lamae's bloodline specifically has sunlight immunity as one of their characteristics.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »Like sparkling vampire in teenager novels.
Much as I hate to defend any of Stephanie Meyer's work, it's not like she invented the idea of vampires who were not destroyed by sunlight. While I'm not sure on the full history of sunlight vulnerability, Dracula, was able to remain active during the day in the original Stoker novel. So, vampires turning to ash on contact with sunlight isn't universally a part of the lit. I'm not even going to touch the folklore, because that's a quagmire none of us will escape from.
But Dracula is one of the most powerful types of vampire in entire existence. o quote other games, on DnD " Vampire lords are those few vampires who meet a strict set of requirements. They each have lived as a vampire for at least 100 years, and have acquired 10 or more class levels or Hit Dice. They tend to possess levels of arcane spellcasting classes, but not always. A vampire lord was formerly a vampire under the control of another vampire (not a vampire lord) and has slain its creator. Further, the vampire lord must have created at least 10 vampires and survived an assassination attempt by one of its subjects before achieving vampire lord status." http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a
I an not being an "purist" with myths. Remember, elves on most fantasy games(ESO included) is far different than elves in norse mythology. My point is just that vampirism should have drawbacks.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »But Dracula is one of the most powerful types of vampire in entire existence. o quote other games, on DnD " Vampire lords are those few vampires who meet a strict set of requirements. They each have lived as a vampire for at least 100 years, and have acquired 10 or more class levels or Hit Dice. They tend to possess levels of arcane spellcasting classes, but not always. A vampire lord was formerly a vampire under the control of another vampire (not a vampire lord) and has slain its creator. Further, the vampire lord must have created at least 10 vampires and survived an assassination attempt by one of its subjects before achieving vampire lord status." http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a
If we went with that definition, than player characters are ineligible to become vampire lords simply because there isn't a single player vampire in the game who has been one for more than 5 years.
This is before you get into other problems, like the part that levels in ESO do not correlate to hit dice in D&D, and player characters are, at best, analogous to ~ level 10 - 15 characters in a P&P game.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »I an not being an "purist" with myths. Remember, elves on most fantasy games(ESO included) is far different than elves in norse mythology.
It's not so much that; your arguments have no real basis beyond, "I want this thing." You're now trying to justify your vampires through a third, completely separate, RPG. And, granted, The Elder Scrolls does have more in common with D&D than it does with World of Darkness, in large part because TES started as an AD&D homebrew campaign setting. However, you're not even linking to AD&D rules, you're linking to a Third Edition supplement, which is, again, a different game.
For those unfamiliar with D&D, Third Edition, and the subsequent 3.5, which would release a year after the article @L0rdV1ct0r just linked, streamlined a lot of systems in AD&D, including making a lot of monsters more modular. The vampire lord linked is an example of that. It may have existed in AD&D as a flat stat-block for high level players to face off against, but it was never intended to be playable. The template that was just linked is supposed to allow a Dungeon Master to augment an existing Vampire NPC into a Vampire Lord.
Also, and, I hate that I need to spell this out, Third Edition D&D Vampire Lords are in no way analogous to The Elder Scrolls' creatures of the same name. Just like TES's dragons are only superficially similar to D&D's versions. The name is the same, but the actual creature is entirely different.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »My point is just that vampirism should have drawbacks.
Asking for more powers is not a drawback.
Asking for a significant upgrade is not a drawback.
Asking for your character to be fundamentally unplayable for over half the day is a drawback, but it's not a particularly interesting drawback. It's just, "oh, now you can't play, go do something else." Without regard for my schedule.
Damn, just thinking about the nightmare of having to schedule trials around when Vampires could actually run the content without cooking to death is a nightmare.Edited by starkerealm on March 20, 2019 4:34AM4 -
L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
This is before you get into other problems, like the part that levels in ESO do not correlate to hit dice in D&D, and player characters are, at best, analogous to ~ level 10 - 15 characters in a P&P game.
I know that doesn't correlate. I an just showing how it works on other games.There are no spell in ESO similar to tier 9 DnD spells like Time Stop, Wish, etc. Even the summon gargoyle that i've suggested, will be probably tier 5-6 in DnD.starkerealm wrote: »It's not so much that; your arguments have no real basis beyond, "I want this thing."
No, that is a strawman. My argument is :
- Vampire lord was the most popular type of vampirism in ESO games
- If comes in a expansion, a lot of people will buy the expansion
- Will bring more diversity, since the unique non cosmetic "transformation" is werewolf
(...)
And your arguments "i will ignore that he said that only one skill should be subjected to sun damage 24/7 and say by the 65437437653 time that it will prevent you for playing with your character"starkerealm wrote: »Asking for your character to be fundamentally unplayable for over half the day is a drawback, but it's not a particularly interesting drawback. It's just, "oh, now you can't play, go do something else." Without regard for my schedule.
Vampire lord form is ONE skill. You still can play with your core character during the day as longs you don't have high vampirism stage.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Your argument about what was the most popular type of vampirism in ESO game is moot. As Starkerealm pointed out the strain of vampirism in ESO has sunlight immunity.
It really would be a poor design in an MMORPG to have sunlight be a real issue. Vampires have a full time vulnerability that plays well with an MMORPG design.5 -
L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
This is before you get into other problems, like the part that levels in ESO do not correlate to hit dice in D&D, and player characters are, at best, analogous to ~ level 10 - 15 characters in a P&P game.
I know that doesn't correlate. I an just showing how it works on other games.There are no spell in ESO similar to tier 9 DnD spells like Time Stop, Wish, etc. Even the summon gargoyle that i've suggested, will be probably tier 5-6 in DnD.starkerealm wrote: »It's not so much that; your arguments have no real basis beyond, "I want this thing."
No, that is a strawman. My argument is :
- Vampire lord was the most popular type of vampirism in ESO games
- If comes in a expansion, a lot of people will buy the expansion
- Will bring more diversity, since the unique non cosmetic "transformation" is werewolf
(...)
And your arguments "i will ignore that he said that only one skill should be subjected to sun damage 24/7 and say by the 65437437653 time that it will prevent you for playing with your character".starkerealm wrote: »Asking for your character to be fundamentally unplayable for over half the day is a drawback, but it's not a particularly interesting drawback. It's just, "oh, now you can't play, go do something else." Without regard for my schedule.
Vampire lord form is ONE skill. You still can play with your core character during the day as longs you don't have high vampirism stage.
Lets count how many times i've said that!!!
nº 1L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »As i've suggested, sun damage is only for vampire LORD form. If you din't assumed vampire lord form, you will not gonna take sun damage. For regular vampirism, i an only in favor of sun damage at stage 3/4 and i an in favor of "blood potions" to feed during daytime at high gold cost.
nº 2L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »IMO should be :
Stage 1 - Health regen penalty while exposed to sun
Stage 2 - Great health regen penalty and little sun damage in some sunny areas during 10am to 2pm
Stage 3 - Little sun damage in some cold areas and high sun damage in hot/sunny areas
Stage 4 - Massive sun damage in all areas.
nº3L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »As i've said. "use blood potions or feed to lower your vapmirism stage" And that i an only in favor of sun damage for you while in vampire lord for or if you are in stage 3/4. Maybe 2 in very sunny areas.
t
I will not re read the rest of messages. But as i've said many times.
Only if you assumed vampire lord form or if you have vampire stage 3/4, sun damage should be a problem.
Only if you assumed vampire lord form or if you have vampire stage 3/4, sun damage should be a problem.
Only if you assumed vampire lord form or if you have vampire stage 3/4, sun damage should be a problem.
Only if you assumed vampire lord form or if you have vampire stage 3/4, sun damage should be a problem.
Only if you assumed vampire lord form or if you have vampire stage 3/4, sun damage should be a problem.
Only if you assumed vampire lord form or if you have vampire stage 3/4, sun damage should be a problem.
(...)
How many times i need to repeat??? Don't wanna take sun damage? Be well feed vampire and don't assume vampire lord form.
I can say all day that i an in favor of an "streamlined" version of Oblivion system. And sun damage isn't a big problem in Oblivion. Mainly if you know illusion spells to feed or restoration, i in lv 15 on Oblivion manages to have a greater constant recover of health than my stage 3 vampirism sun damage if there are clouds, just using custom made long duration spells. You will keep pretending that i an advocating for insta death sun damage(something that never existed in any TES game) even if you are with stage 1 vampirism in the coldest place of tamriel few minutes before the sundown. And i an not advocating for that.Edited by L0rdV1ct0r on March 20, 2019 5:09AM0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »i will ignore that he said...
You sure you aren't talking about yourself here?
All I'm seeing is a repetition of, "buh-buh-but Vampire The Masquerade lets me do this!"
"No, it doesn't."
"Buh-buh-buh, D&D lets me do it!"
"Your DM will never sign off on it."
"Buh-buh-but I wanit!"
If you want to play a Vampire Lord, Skyrim is over there. You can also play a Dragonborn. Which, you know, would also be horrifically lorebreaking in ESO. So, have fun.
EDIT: And of course:L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »My point is just that vampirism should have drawbacks.
So, let's make those drawbacks come in the form of a huge upgrade. Right.Edited by starkerealm on March 20, 2019 5:22AM0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »
Lets count how many times i've said that!!!
nº 1L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »i an only in favor of sun damage at stage 3/4 and i an in favor of "blood potions" to feed during daytime at high gold cost.
We're just ignoring that there's already a drink, in game, which reduces your current stage? Yes? No? Okay, whatever, moving on.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »nº 2L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »Stage 4 - Massive sun damage in all areas.
I assume you mean all exterior areas. Though the basic, "oh, you hit stage 4? You burn to death in your coffin," is mildly amusing.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »nº3L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »And that i an only in favor of sun damage for you while in vampire lord for or if you are in stage 3/4. Maybe 2 in very sunny areas.
t
Spoken like someone who has never played a vampire in endgame content. Or endgame content in general.
So, let me explain. Undeath is a critical passive for Vampire in PvE content. While it won't make you invulnerable, it can be the difference between taking a hit, and dying on the spot. This is especially true for vampire tanks.
Further:
The following 12 man content includes exterior areas:
Hell Ra Citadel, Maw of Lorkhaj, Halls of Fabrication, Asylum Sanctorum, and Cloudrest.
The following dungeons have exterior areas:
Arx Corinium, Blackheart Haven, Blessed Crucible, City of Ash 2 (technically CoA1 does as well, but it's always night), Crypt of Hearts 1 and 2 (yes, it does, look up once in awhile), Direfrost Keep, Selene's Web, Tempest Island, Volenfell, Scalecaller, Bloodroot Forge, Falkreath Hold, Imperial City Prision, White Gold Tower, Ruins of Mazzatun, March of Sacrifices (though this one might not count) and Moonhunter Keep.
Saying, "oh, yeah, but you'll only take extra damage and die while you're in stage three would cut vampires off of running any endgame content, and would make the random dungeon finder a roulette wheel of toxicity. "It's daytime, I should just queue into... oh, I'm dead."
EDIT: Also, not for nothing, but if you have played an endgame vampire, you might have realized that, if you're using any active abilities, you can easily jump stages mid fight. Oh, look, our tank died because they use mistform and it pushed them from Stage 2 to 3, and the sun damage torched them because the healer couldn't keep them up through that, and the boss's damage.
Short version, adding sun damage does not reflect the realities of playing an MMO where you cannot adjust the clock, and is woefully inconsistent with how vampires in ESO have been designed.Edited by starkerealm on March 20, 2019 5:58AM5 -
L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »No, that is a strawman. My argument is :
- Vampire lord was the most popular type of vampirism in ESO games
And you don't suppose that's because, to date, the only Elder Scrolls content specifically focused on Vampirism was Skyrim's Dawnguard DLC?
Outside of that, single, release, Vampires have always been side content. It is entirely possible to play TES3, 4, and 5 (without Dawnguard installed) to completion without realizing vampires even exist in The Elder Scrolls.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »Vampire lord form is ONE skill.
No, it is an extremely rare variation, unique to a different bloodline, that is, by its nature, absurdly powerful. It is not, "one skill," it would be better suited to an entirely new skill line.
Same can be applies to werewolfs. Using your logic, nobody should have werewolf form.
And do you know why skyrim is the unique game with a vampire focused DLC? Because previous games have much more interesting vampirism. Dark Brotherhood on Oblivion, tons of different clasn on Daggerfall and Morrowind. One of main complaints that Skyrim received was this. Vampirism was poorly implemented. Dawnguard is an expansion that fixed it and made vampires great again.
And guess what? ESO followed skyrim. Vampirism at moment is very lackluster.starkerealm wrote: »We're just ignoring that there's already a drink, in game, which reduces your current stage? Yes? No? Okay, whatever, moving on.
Yes, what about an drink game where every time that you assume that i've said something that i din't said, is one drink? I wold not recommend since will not be safe.
PS : Feeding and blood potions(suggested) should reduce the sagestarkerealm wrote: »So, let me explain. Undeath is a critical passive for Vampire in PvE content. While it won't make you invulnerable, it can be the difference between taking a hit, and dying on the spot. This is especially true for vampire tanks.
OMG. One passive that can some times save your life on PvE/PvP? That is the best implementation of vampirism ever!!!!
Vampires should't be powerful casters and dominators receiving powerful spells/magick buffs like previous games. Should be tank fairies sparkling on sun and if you disagree, i will gonna strawman you 24/7. How dare you wanna an ESO game with an similar implementation to vampirism of previous games!!! That is the ultimate heresy!!!starkerealm wrote: »Arx Corinium, Blackheart Haven, Blessed ble, City of Ash 2 (technically CoA1 does as well, but it's always night), Crypt of Hearts 1 and 2 (yes, it does, look up once in awhile), Direfrost Keep, Selene's Web, Tempest Island, Volenfell, Scalecaller, Bloodroot Forge, Falkreath Hold, Imperial City Prision, White Gold Tower, Ruins of Mazzatun, March of Sacrifices (though this one might not count) and Moonhunter Keep
Yes, players will be forced to play this dungeons with low vampirism stage. At the same way that CC skills can be useful or not depending the situation. So CC skills should be removed? My idea of a vampire lord is a situational skill.
But for you only werewolfs should be able to have cool transformation with 2 dire wolf summons to help. Vampires have an situational transformation and be able to summon gargoyles? That is the ultimate heresy!!!!!starkerealm wrote: »
Saying, "oh, yeah, but you'll only take extra damage and die while you're in stage three would cut vampires off of running any endgame content, and would make the random dungeon finder a roulette wheel of toxicity. "It's daytime, I should just queue into... oh, I'm dead."
.[/i]
And yes, nobody will just use an "blood potion'(as i've suggested) if they are in vampire stage 3/4 in this dungeons. Nobody will use another abilities, everyone will use vampire lord transformation in mid of sun. And everyone will take an small damage and be a turned into ashes Doesn't matter if a stage 3 vampire on Oblivion with 400 hp needs 100s exposed to sun to die and with high magicka and high regen skill, he can counter the damage an survive for a long time. All of my hours playing as a vampire on Oblivion was just an illusion, you justa insta die in sun. Little sun damage and insta die without any chance to lower your vampirism stage or heal is the same thing
/sarcasmEdited by L0rdV1ct0r on March 20, 2019 6:13AM0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »Same can be applies to werewolfs. Using your logic, nobody should have werewolf form.
This is incorrect. Lycanthropy is well documented in Tamriel. There's dozens of books on the subject, and several of them hint at a much larger body of literature that isn't available in game.
It's not rare. There's debate on some of the specific strains, like the Wereshark or Werecrocodile, which may not exist. And there's some question on things like the Werelion, questioning, "wait, what's going on here?"
But, Lycanthropy is not unknown.
Vampire Lords are.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »And do you know why skyrim is the unique game with a vampire focused DLC? Because previous games have much more interesting vampirism. Dark Brotherhood on Oblivion, tons of different clasn on Daggerfall and Morrowind. One of main complaints that Skyrim received was this. Vampirism was poorly implemented. Dawnguard is an expansion that fixed it and made vampires great again.
Again, this is all incorrect. Skyrim received a DLC focusing on vampirism because the team at Bethesda chose to develop a DLC focused on Vampirism. They did not look at it and say, "well, this is boring, let's spice it up." In fact, Dawnguard nerfs several aspects of Vampirism from "vanilla" Skyrim.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »And guess what? ESO followed skyrim. Vampirism at moment is very lackluster.starkerealm wrote: »We're just ignoring that there's already a drink, in game, which reduces your current stage? Yes? No? Okay, whatever, moving on.
Yes, what about an drink game where every time that you assume that i've said something that i din't said, is one drink? I wold not recommend since will not be safe.
PS : Feeding and blood potions(suggested) should reduce the sage
Every time you say this, it's like, "hey, they should add blood potions!" and I'm sitting here going, "I can literally craft those, right now, in ESO. It costs me a Daedra Heart per 4, and some provisioning mats I really don't care about, and that's about as expensive as it gets." And then you, "but, they should add them!" It's already in the game.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »So, let me explain. Undeath is a critical passive for Vampire in PvE content. While it won't make you invulnerable, it can be the difference between taking a hit, and dying on the spot. This is especially true for vampire tanks.
OMG. One passive that can some times save your life on PvE/PvP? That is the best implementation of vampirism ever!!!!
I'm glad you see things that way.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »Vampires should't be powerful casters and dominators receiving powerful spells/magick buffs like previous games. Should be tank fairies sparkling on sun and if you disagree, i will gonna strawman you 24/7. How dare you wanna an ESO game with an similar implementation to vampirism of previous games!!! That is the ultimate heresy!!!starkerealm wrote: »Arx Corinium, Blackheart Haven, Blessed ble, City of Ash 2 (technically CoA1 does as well, but it's always night), Crypt of Hearts 1 and 2 (yes, it does, look up once in awhile), Direfrost Keep, Selene's Web, Tempest Island, Volenfell, Scalecaller, Bloodroot Forge, Falkreath Hold, Imperial City Prision, White Gold Tower, Ruins of Mazzatun, March of Sacrifices (though this one might not count) and Moonhunter Keep
Yes, players will be forced to play this dungeons with low vampirism stage. At the same way that CC skills can be useful or not depending the situation. So CC skills should be removed.
I don't think you fully understand this. It's entirely possible to enter a fight in Stage 1, and hit Stage 3 or 4 before the fight is over if you're using your Vampire active abilities with any regularity. In fact I've had runs of vAS where I went from Stage 2 to 4 in a single encounter.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »And only werewolfs should be able to have cool transformation with 2 dire wolf summons to help.
Well, I'm glad we're agreed that Vampire Lord has no place as a player skill in ESO.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »
Saying, "oh, yeah, but you'll only take extra damage and die while you're in stage three would cut vampires off of running any endgame content, and would make the random dungeon finder a roulette wheel of toxicity. "It's daytime, I should just queue into... oh, I'm dead."
.[/i]
And yes, nobody will just use an "blood potion'(as i've suggested) if they are in vampire stage 3/4 in this dungeons. Nobody will use another habilities. Everyone will take an small damage and be a turned into ashes Doesn't matter if a stage 3 vampire on Oblivion with 400 hp needs 100s exposed to sun to die and with high magicka and high regen skill, he can counter the damage an survive for a long time. All of my hours playing as a vampire on Oblivion was just an illusion, you justa insta die in sun. Little sun damage and insta die without any chance to lower your vampirism stage is the same thing
Yeah, I'd recommend you play some group content, before you start going out there and saying, "yeah, I know how it is." It's not like it's a deal breaker, but it's becoming more apparent over time, that you really haven't experienced what this game has to offer, and as a result, don't really have a complete picture of how the game is designed and balanced.
Not, really a criticism of you, so much as just friendly advice.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »/sarcasm
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