Maintenance for the week of January 6:
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – January 8, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – January 8, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 13:00 UTC (8:00AM EST)
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – January 8, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – January 8, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 13:00 UTC (8:00AM EST)
Why snares are not a problem
-
Burtan✭✭✭✭BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »Snares are not a problem, they are a very effective tactic which frankly all too easy to counter.
I use an Ice Mage in PvP. If you build a CC, stun, snare, buff, debuff, heal support toon for PvP you get squat for damage. I mean high teens / low twenties DPS on even a simple 300K skeleton. With Battle Spirit in PVP you are doing around 10K DPS.
Is it worth it? Heck yea. Nothing, I mean nothing is more satisfying then to run up to a group of your alliance chasing some run around a rock in circles build for 10 mins and lay down some ice, immobilize and watch him melt. Puts a real smile on your face.
Similar when you run across some run away like a little girl build that is streaking around. Ice them down and watch them get gang tackled.
Pretty much all the Ice-Immobilize haters are NB streakers/swift run around a rock in circle builders and this is why snares are not a problem but an absolute Blessing to the game.
Why are you chasing 1 guy to begin with? go find more interesting PvP.
If I see 20 noobs chasing 1 guy who is farming them with 90 ultimate dawnbreakers I also will ice him. Those 20 noobs are on my faction and if I want more interesting PVP I need the zerg to be able to push down into red/blue territory so that I can run ganks on popular lines of travel and get more AP.
If that 1 guy thinks killin 20 noobs is fun I think he should be careful if he sees my name. Period.
Red is dead.
I imagine you get tbagged a lot.8 -
NinchiTV✭✭✭✭✭Haashhtaag wrote: »No snares are a huge problem and to even deny that or rationalize why they are not a problem is naive and ignorant.
OP probably doesnt know because he is sitting comfy in a 24 man group3 -
MalagenR✭✭✭✭✭BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »Snares are not a problem, they are a very effective tactic which frankly all too easy to counter.
I use an Ice Mage in PvP. If you build a CC, stun, snare, buff, debuff, heal support toon for PvP you get squat for damage. I mean high teens / low twenties DPS on even a simple 300K skeleton. With Battle Spirit in PVP you are doing around 10K DPS.
Is it worth it? Heck yea. Nothing, I mean nothing is more satisfying then to run up to a group of your alliance chasing some run around a rock in circles build for 10 mins and lay down some ice, immobilize and watch him melt. Puts a real smile on your face.
Similar when you run across some run away like a little girl build that is streaking around. Ice them down and watch them get gang tackled.
Pretty much all the Ice-Immobilize haters are NB streakers/swift run around a rock in circle builders and this is why snares are not a problem but an absolute Blessing to the game.
Why are you chasing 1 guy to begin with? go find more interesting PvP.
If I see 20 noobs chasing 1 guy who is farming them with 90 ultimate dawnbreakers I also will ice him. Those 20 noobs are on my faction and if I want more interesting PVP I need the zerg to be able to push down into red/blue territory so that I can run ganks on popular lines of travel and get more AP.
If that 1 guy thinks killin 20 noobs is fun I think he should be careful if he sees my name. Period.
Red is dead.
I imagine you get tbagged a lot.
It's your imagination.1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Hands down, the real problem is largely due to the fact that people have just become too accostumed to being able to dodge and outrun everything over the years.
Earlier snares were a non-issue, but now that they suddenly have an impact on movement and mobility, people can't play the game anymore?
Seriously, it's a matter of improving your stategies and learning to play under the new conditions. I mean, what's the point of snares, if you can easily avoid them altogether?
As a magplar main, I've never become too accustomed to be able to outrun everything at any point playing this game.
Earlier snares were absolutely an issue, if anything worse than it is now. Before gap closers put like a 60% auto-snare on you (even if you had immunity), the bombard skill stacked, the Encase skill snared you after the root, etc. People are trying to play the game, but ZOS implemented a blanket nerf on speed and snare counters. They themselves keep telling me in out rep meeting that movement is still an issue that they want to reform, so if even the devs acknowledge it, let's not kid ourselves: snares/root/movement speed in general is a problem.
Skills like Cripple are ridiculously overloaded: it does damage, put on a decent DoT, roots the target, and snares them. Meanwhile movement skills like boundless storm give a mere 4 seconds of a buff that's a smaller value than most snares in the game (i.e. if you have "major expedition" and hit with any snare in the game, you're slower than your enemy's default movement) while providing a modest resistance buff that is probably more efficient to get from a monster set. Let's not even begin to discuss what an Ice staff with the charged trait can do. The game's mechanics are very much biased toward slowing players down.
I do agree that snares have a place in the game and are a necessary mechanic (after all, I'm a templar, without them everyone would simply run away from me), but the balance is out of whack.
I think how fair snare/root access is needs to be looked at, as well as improve the access to mobility on classes. As a DK I have major expedition on chains of all skills, which makes no sense, why do I need a speed buff after closing the gap? And not to mention this limits build options as chains count as a CC and give immunity meaning I can't mindlessly spam it just to get expedition. (And well, the other morph is not so viable for stam. Already have 4 magicka skills slotted on my build and not gonna slot 5th. This is getting ridicilous.)
But enough of my pain, lets talk about this whole ''lets make every buff/debuff last 4 seconds'' madness that combat team has nowadays. I get that lowering defile from 10 to 4 improved gameplay, but that doesn't mean 4 seconds on everything is the way to go. Please kindly remind zenimax that they can be more creative than that and 4 seconds of expedition is simply ridicilous.
I agree with you with the 4 second thing. It's puzzling because ZOS flat out admitted that the Warden design of spamming buffs was not something they wanted, yet here we are.2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Joy_Division
I think that’s just a byproduct of having no clear vision. Do the Devs really know what they want Cyrodiil to be? Do they know what they want the classes to be? There have been so many puzzling and often contradicting changes in the last year that I seriously doubt they have a clear idea.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.4 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Never have I seen such a far fetched justification for Xv1 zerging. Then later you even contradict yourself by saying "red is dead", which is the true zergling instinct coming to the surface.BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »Snares are not a problem, they are a very effective tactic which frankly all too easy to counter.
I use an Ice Mage in PvP. If you build a CC, stun, snare, buff, debuff, heal support toon for PvP you get squat for damage. I mean high teens / low twenties DPS on even a simple 300K skeleton. With Battle Spirit in PVP you are doing around 10K DPS.
Is it worth it? Heck yea. Nothing, I mean nothing is more satisfying then to run up to a group of your alliance chasing some run around a rock in circles build for 10 mins and lay down some ice, immobilize and watch him melt. Puts a real smile on your face.
Similar when you run across some run away like a little girl build that is streaking around. Ice them down and watch them get gang tackled.
Pretty much all the Ice-Immobilize haters are NB streakers/swift run around a rock in circle builders and this is why snares are not a problem but an absolute Blessing to the game.
Why are you chasing 1 guy to begin with? go find more interesting PvP.
If I see 20 noobs chasing 1 guy who is farming them with 90 ultimate dawnbreakers I also will ice him. Those 20 noobs are on my faction and if I want more interesting PVP I need the zerg to be able to push down into red/blue territory so that I can run ganks on popular lines of travel and get more AP.
If that 1 guy thinks killin 20 noobs is fun I think he should be careful if he sees my name. Period.
Red is dead.
Truth is you simply don't give a *** about how snares and roots literally ruin the fun for others. All you care about is your ability to have succes on your builds. That is your only perspective.3 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Hands down, the real problem is largely due to the fact that people have just become too accostumed to being able to dodge and outrun everything over the years.
Earlier snares were a non-issue, but now that they suddenly have an impact on movement and mobility, people can't play the game anymore?
Seriously, it's a matter of improving your stategies and learning to play under the new conditions. I mean, what's the point of snares, if you can easily avoid them altogether?
As a magplar main, I've never become too accustomed to be able to outrun everything at any point playing this game.
Earlier snares were absolutely an issue, if anything worse than it is now. Before gap closers put like a 60% auto-snare on you (even if you had immunity), the bombard skill stacked, the Encase skill snared you after the root, etc. People are trying to play the game, but ZOS implemented a blanket nerf on speed and snare counters. They themselves keep telling me in out rep meeting that movement is still an issue that they want to reform, so if even the devs acknowledge it, let's not kid ourselves: snares/root/movement speed in general is a problem.
Skills like Cripple are ridiculously overloaded: it does damage, put on a decent DoT, roots the target, and snares them. Meanwhile movement skills like boundless storm give a mere 4 seconds of a buff that's a smaller value than most snares in the game (i.e. if you have "major expedition" and hit with any snare in the game, you're slower than your enemy's default movement) while providing a modest resistance buff that is probably more efficient to get from a monster set. Let's not even begin to discuss what an Ice staff with the charged trait can do. The game's mechanics are very much biased toward slowing players down.
I do agree that snares have a place in the game and are a necessary mechanic (after all, I'm a templar, without them everyone would simply run away from me), but the balance is out of whack.
I think how fair snare/root access is needs to be looked at, as well as improve the access to mobility on classes. As a DK I have major expedition on chains of all skills, which makes no sense, why do I need a speed buff after closing the gap? And not to mention this limits build options as chains count as a CC and give immunity meaning I can't mindlessly spam it just to get expedition. (And well, the other morph is not so viable for stam. Already have 4 magicka skills slotted on my build and not gonna slot 5th. This is getting ridicilous.)
But enough of my pain, lets talk about this whole ''lets make every buff/debuff last 4 seconds'' madness that combat team has nowadays. I get that lowering defile from 10 to 4 improved gameplay, but that doesn't mean 4 seconds on everything is the way to go. Please kindly remind zenimax that they can be more creative than that and 4 seconds of expedition is simply ridicilous.
I agree with you with the 4 second thing. It's puzzling because ZOS flat out admitted that the Warden design of spamming buffs was not something they wanted, yet here we are.
Well, I don't enjoy my stamden for that very reason, however I can't deny how freakin powerful those warden buffs are. They are too good for not spamming. As for bird of prey I realize 4 seconds is too short, but if it was longer, like say 8 or 10, why would anyone with half working mind play a DK over it at that point? Mobility is too strong of a tool and they just murdered it for everyone by nerfing speed pots.
I'm not being dramatic when I say speed pot nerf killed solo play for me. It exactly did that. It pigeonholed me into running 2h/bow with steed mundus(which is very weak by the way), against heavy armor players with bleeds and proc sets. I'm not having a good time in cyrodiil, but snares are a good equalizer at the very least. And this is why I'm against a potential removal of snares just to try and correct the error that was made with expedition.Edited by Ragnarock41 on March 16, 2019 1:39AM1 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »When see things like this https://imgur.com/a/X3fBJGo it just reminds me there’s different type of players in the game with different mindsets. The people that Zerg really just think differently about everything. And yes I died because of snares , more specifically a magwarden permafrosting me then dying to 11k fall damage. 😐
Yup, it's great when you get killed 5+v1 and they tea bag you and whisper about how you and your build is trash, while they run around 5 deep at all times with builds made to live forever and kill nothing solo.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hands down, the real problem is largely due to the fact that people have just become too accostumed to being able to dodge and outrun everything over the years.
Earlier snares were a non-issue, but now that they suddenly have an impact on movement and mobility, people can't play the game anymore?
Seriously, it's a matter of improving your stategies and learning to play under the new conditions. I mean, what's the point of snares, if you can easily avoid them altogether?
Which is a largely false statement to make.
Early game templars and DKs didn´t need to avoid snares because they had tools that properly scaled with the number of opponents they were fighting. These were removed - so getting snared and zerged became an issue.
Early game sorcs didn´t have cost increase on streak which made dealing with snares and roots way easier - also you would streak in the direction your camera was facing even while rooted not where your char faced.
Early game NBs could purge roots and snares with cloak. Also removed.
Your statement couldn´t be more wrong than it is.
ZOS took away the ability of classes to deal with snares and roots over time (and in the process getting zerged) - so naturally people now complain more about those.Edited by Derra on March 16, 2019 9:15AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 503 -
Digiman✭✭✭✭✭Checked the Champion system and the removed the CP that reduced the duration of CC, snares and roots... So obviously they wanted this type of CC to be prevalent and not useless.
Guess this was to counter zergs I suppose.1 -
JusticeSouldier✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Well, I don't enjoy my stamden for that very reason, however I can't deny how freakin powerful those warden buffs are. They are too good for not spamming. As for bird of prey I realize 4 seconds is too short, but if it was longer, like say 8 or 10, why would anyone with half working mind play a DK over it at that point? Mobility is too strong of a tool and they just murdered it for everyone by nerfing speed pots.
I'm not being dramatic when I say speed pot nerf killed solo play for me. It exactly did that. It pigeonholed me into running 2h/bow with steed mundus(which is very weak by the way), against heavy armor players with bleeds and proc sets. I'm not having a good time in cyrodiil, but snares are a good equalizer at the very least. And this is why I'm against a potential removal of snares just to try and correct the error that was made with expedition.
I'm pretty sure here are 2 problems with snares:
1. they can stuck endless. Why Major/Minor system wasn't applyed to them with another debuffs/buffs - I don't understand at all. Why?
2. classes have no options to counter them. I mean, different counter things, not only snare removal or immunity (momentum, shaffle, dragon scales provide cleance and immunity, mist form cleance and immunity during being active, purge - just cleance...no variety at all).
Here can be: eating snares to gain heal or resourses, or buffs/debuffs, redistributing to someone or sharing with enemies/allies to have choice, to be able do something solo or in group in different ways.
Expedition here...it was fair to nerf exp potions. Maybe it was painful to stop depend on them for someone, but they were completly unbalanced. Nowadays cooldown is good. After reworking snare system in general. I always have them on stam characters and use when need instead tri- or detect potions (which are too op vs nighblades because of their's very unfair detect mechanics) when need.
Major buffs like that onne should not be permanent..Edited by JusticeSouldier on March 18, 2019 6:58PMall classes. pc platform, dissapointed.0 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sypherioth wrote: »I'd prefer more stuns over the snare fest we have atm... at least stuns require reaction to break free and some minor measure of skill, and they give immunity for some time...
Even with the bugs due lag and not being able to break free, IMO they're preferable to the constant slog in deep mud water we have atm!
EDIT: I play magicka builds and choose not to be vampire, so that taints/biases my experience... the fact that we don't have snare dealing abilities without having to be vampire is really *really* dumb.
So you expect to when melee gets at you he should not have tools to keep you in range continuesly? You should be able to roam free like 90% of the time? Or whenever some melee gets to your ranged char you should not be able to keep him ranged before he arrivés at you?
Remove the snares and eso becomes range fest again. Now melee fights are usefull because you can stay onto people. Easy snare removal will only reduce dmg melee can do in pvp.JusticeSouldier wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Well, I don't enjoy my stamden for that very reason, however I can't deny how freakin powerful those warden buffs are. They are too good for not spamming. As for bird of prey I realize 4 seconds is too short, but if it was longer, like say 8 or 10, why would anyone with half working mind play a DK over it at that point? Mobility is too strong of a tool and they just murdered it for everyone by nerfing speed pots.
I'm not being dramatic when I say speed pot nerf killed solo play for me. It exactly did that. It pigeonholed me into running 2h/bow with steed mundus(which is very weak by the way), against heavy armor players with bleeds and proc sets. I'm not having a good time in cyrodiil, but snares are a good equalizer at the very least. And this is why I'm against a potential removal of snares just to try and correct the error that was made with expedition.
I'm pretty sure here are 2 problems with snares:
1. they can stuck endless. Why Major/Minor system wasn't applyed to them with another debuffs/buffs - I don't understand at all. Why?
2. classes have no options to counter them. I mean, different counter things, not only snare removal or immunity (momentum, shaffle, dragon scales provide cleance and immunity, mist form cleance and immunity during being active, purge - just cleance...no variety at all).
Here can be: eating snares to gain heal or resourses, or buffs/debuffs, redistributing to someone or sharing with enemies/allies to have choice, to be able do something solo or in group in different ways.
Expedition here...it was fair to nerf exp potions. Maybe it was painful to stop depend on them for someone, but they were completly unbalanced. Nowadays cooldown is good. After reworking snare system in general. I always have them on stam characters and use when need instead tri- or detect potions (which are too op vs nighblades because of their's very unfair detect mechanics) when need.
Major buffs like that onne should not be permanent..
1. They effectively already are. Stronger snares overwrite weaker snares, so if you have a 30% snare, a 40% snare, and a 60% snare on you, the 60% will be the one slowing you down. You can easily tell this by the fact that you can actually move in combat, since if snares stacked, you'd be rooted 24/7 due to the abundance of snares.
2. This is part of the problem for magicka specifically. Stamina is in a pretty good spot regarding access to snare removal and immunity, with Forward Momentum and Shuffle both being viable options for dealing with snares. Magicka, however, only has Mist Form, which is more of a repositioning tool, than a counter to snares. Either all magicka classes need to have a way of dealing with snares in the class skill lines, or there needs to be an actual counter in one of the other skill lines, like Psijic Order or Mages Guild.
3. These sort of sets already exist. Barskin reduces the duration of roots and snares by 50%, heals you for 2k health when a snare is applied, and restores 1k stamina when a snare is applied. Ranger's Gait reduces the effectiveness of snares by 50%. Robes of the Hist heals you for 2500 health while you're affected by a root or snare. These aren't actually counters to snares, though, because the bonuses range from irrelevant (the healing and stamina returns) to ineffective (snare effectiveness and duration reduction).
4. Whether or not we think they were too strong, the simple truth is they were gutted. Their maximum uptime is now a quarter of what it used to be, and the options for gaining Major Expedition from skills are a liability, because 4 seconds is far too short. A better alternative, and one I pushed for back then, was to instead have speed pots sit around 24-32 seconds in duration, and have skills grant Major Expedition for around 6-8 seconds. That way the uptime of speed pots would sit around 50-70%, and you'd use skills to make up the rest. Give magicka an option for speed pots (magicka gets the short end of the stick when it comes to potions, IMO), and that's what I was pushing for.
5. Detect pots are unfair against nightblades? Lol. I think it's unfair that nightblades have arguably one of the best defensive skills in the game, making it impossible for players to target them with anything but AOE attacks for 2 and a half seconds, forces in-flight projectiles to miss, suppresses any previously applied dot's, and stuns players when attacking out of it, all the while their regen continues ticking, they can continue to heal, and they can completely reset the fight.0