Why snares are not a problem
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Wompatom✭The main problem with snares is the combination of strength, stacking and ease of application. It's quite simple really. If all three of these elements get nerfed then snares will become useless which isn't right as they should have a place.
The most straight forward solution is to make snares major and minor (30%/15%) respectively to be similar to major and minor expedition. This leaves room for synergy to stack both debuffs where possible up to a max of 45% reduction which is plenty to build a playstyle around. It does however prevent debuffs stacking to the point of practically being immobilised indefinitely.
As for ease of application, I believe most abilities where the snare is not the primary function of the skill should keep the snare, albeit a minor one (15%). This won't fundamentally change the function of the skill, but will force the player into making a decision on their skill choice if they significantly want to snare their opponents with a major snare as well (30%). Similarly, skills whose primary function is to snare can keep the major snare (30%) so that they too retain their function just without the ridiculousness of the current state of snares.
It really is the best way to go about it IMO. Insane snare stacking would be gone, single snare abilities of up to 70% (way too much for one skill) would be gone, whilst skills that have snares built into them won't feel like they're completely nerfed into the ground. Players can still maintain strong snares indefinitely, but it will now be a choice that they must make just like any other build choice such as damage, sustain, tankiness, etc.Edited by Wompatom on March 13, 2019 12:53PM2 -
Haashhtaag✭✭✭✭✭
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If you are outnumbered 20 to 1, you should die.
I think most can agree with that, but what if it’s 4-6 vs 15-20? And the 4-6 are clearly superior players but instead die because of bogus mechanics?1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sypherioth wrote: »
Nah who wants a 10k+ tooltip aoe dmg which is easily paired with other skills for those who can count. I wonder why a comparable skill need to have 8 sec to trigger and less dmg vs single player. But thats just me I guess.
Play nord if you hate ice snare and alot of problems from ice wardens will vanish in thin air. Frost staff to btw
?
They have extra resistance to frost and cannot be chilled... it doesn't say anything about ice snare...
Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique4 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Of course a member of Dominant Dominion says this.
Snares wouldn't be an issue if everyone had access to a skill that give snare removal. Instead they are locked behind specific playstyles rather than general skills that can be used for any playstyle. Having snare removal should be choice not something you need to design your hole build and playstyle around.Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info5 -
WeylandLabs✭✭✭✭✭The snares are a problem becuase some of the other immunities are broken. Try using Toxic Barrage and still get snared and rooted, ohh im sorry you don't use it becuase it doesnt freggin work and still can be reflected as an ult. Where is your class reps in that one ?
ZOS: Your bug has been reported, 1 year later same thing.
FORUMS: Your bug has been reported still waiting 1 year later.
Class Reps: Tell us the bug, 1 year later same thing.
Want to talk about different playstyle, when were forced into a few.
Please gimmi a break, fix the bugs and balance combat.
Edited by WeylandLabs on March 13, 2019 7:32PM0 -
BrokenGameMechanics✭✭✭✭Snares are not a problem, they are a very effective tactic which frankly all too easy to counter.
I use an Ice Mage in PvP. If you build a CC, stun, snare, buff, debuff, heal support toon for PvP you get squat for damage. I mean high teens / low twenties DPS on even a simple 300K skeleton. With Battle Spirit in PVP you are doing around 10K DPS.
Is it worth it? Heck yea. Nothing, I mean nothing is more satisfying then to run up to a group of your alliance chasing some run around a rock in circles build for 10 mins and lay down some ice, immobilize and watch him melt. Puts a real smile on your face.
Similar when you run across some run away like a little girl build that is streaking around. Ice them down and watch them get gang tackled.
Pretty much all the Ice-Immobilize haters are NB streakers/swift run around a rock in circle builders and this is why snares are not a problem but an absolute Blessing to the game.2 -
Sypherioth✭✭✭
Snares are overpowered because they are calculated multiplicatively. In every practical way, they outscale speed buffs dramatically. The other guy who just replied to you explains it as well.
I do see your point about snares being available for everyone (therefore being balanced), just like CC's are. This ultimately comes down to how you prefer combat to be.
If you read back to my original post, whether you prefer snare meta or not, is mostly a matter of preference regarding if you like fast-gameplay or slow gameplay. One is not inferior to the other, but the majority of people seem to prefer fast gameplay.
Unless you can argue why normal speed combat (since speed has already been nerfed) will break the overall combat system, there is no reason why ZOS shouldn't follow through with what seems to be the majority consensus among those who provide feedback.
Yes that I agree with that it's more preference. For me it wouldn't matter much I just hope the classes/builds that realy need the snare wont be nerfed into the ground.
For me personally snares are no problem. And I don't need snares for my builds. I get killed by a well placed fear or stun alot more.
Yes I like fast gameplay to. Thats why I love bow offbar.0 -
Sypherioth✭✭✭If you think snares are just fine how they are it’s very likely you’re just a zergling who has never fought out numbered or you just don’t even PvP often. I’m not arguing. It’s a fact
No never pvped. Yes always in zerg as a squishy player using dw and bow without snipe… I have little use in a zerg but whatever.Lol!
List all the skills that have a snare. It's like what? 20+?
Now list all the counters. Maybe 4.
Keeping in mind that snares apply after increased speed calculation and that means there tons of skills that make you crawl around while there's barely any ways to cure them.
Yes because when using the good counters in the right time frame its more valuable then try to spam it to stay clear of snare all time.BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »Snares are not a problem, they are a very effective tactic which frankly all too easy to counter.
I use an Ice Mage in PvP. If you build a CC, stun, snare, buff, debuff, heal support toon for PvP you get squat for damage. I mean high teens / low twenties DPS on even a simple 300K skeleton. With Battle Spirit in PVP you are doing around 10K DPS.
Is it worth it? Heck yea. Nothing, I mean nothing is more satisfying then to run up to a group of your alliance chasing some run around a rock in circles build for 10 mins and lay down some ice, immobilize and watch him melt. Puts a real smile on your face.
Similar when you run across some run away like a little girl build that is streaking around. Ice them down and watch them get gang tackled.
Pretty much all the Ice-Immobilize haters are NB streakers/swift run around a rock in circle builders and this is why snares are not a problem but an absolute Blessing to the game.
Ye I tried tell them go Nord. And problems melt like snow.Edited by Sypherioth on March 13, 2019 8:55PM0 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭When see things like this https://imgur.com/a/X3fBJGo it just reminds me there’s different type of players in the game with different mindsets. The people that Zerg really just think differently about everything. And yes I died because of snares , more specifically a magwarden permafrosting me then dying to 11k fall damage. 😐1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hands down, the real problem is largely due to the fact that people have just become too accostumed to being able to dodge and outrun everything over the years.
Earlier snares were a non-issue, but now that they suddenly have an impact on movement and mobility, people can't play the game anymore?
Seriously, it's a matter of improving your stategies and learning to play under the new conditions. I mean, what's the point of snares, if you can easily avoid them altogether?
As a magplar main, I've never become too accustomed to be able to outrun everything at any point playing this game.
Earlier snares were absolutely an issue, if anything worse than it is now. Before gap closers put like a 60% auto-snare on you (even if you had immunity), the bombard skill stacked, the Encase skill snared you after the root, etc. People are trying to play the game, but ZOS implemented a blanket nerf on speed and snare counters. They themselves keep telling me in out rep meeting that movement is still an issue that they want to reform, so if even the devs acknowledge it, let's not kid ourselves: snares/root/movement speed in general is a problem.
Skills like Cripple are ridiculously overloaded: it does damage, put on a decent DoT, roots the target, and snares them. Meanwhile movement skills like boundless storm give a mere 4 seconds of a buff that's a smaller value than most snares in the game (i.e. if you have "major expedition" and hit with any snare in the game, you're slower than your enemy's default movement) while providing a modest resistance buff that is probably more efficient to get from a monster set. Let's not even begin to discuss what an Ice staff with the charged trait can do. The game's mechanics are very much biased toward slowing players down.
I do agree that snares have a place in the game and are a necessary mechanic (after all, I'm a templar, without them everyone would simply run away from me), but the balance is out of whack.6 -
likecats✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
As a magplar main, I've never become too accustomed to be able to outrun everything at any point playing this game.
Earlier snares were absolutely an issue, if anything worse than it is now. Before gap closers put like a 60% auto-snare on you (even if you had immunity), the bombard skill stacked, the Encase skill snared you after the root, etc. People are trying to play the game, but ZOS implemented a blanket nerf on speed and snare counters. They themselves keep telling me in out rep meeting that movement is still an issue that they want to reform, so if even the devs acknowledge it, let's not kid ourselves: snares/root/movement speed in general is a problem.
Skills like Cripple are ridiculously overloaded: it does damage, put on a decent DoT, roots the target, and snares them. Meanwhile movement skills like boundless storm give a mere 4 seconds of a buff that's a smaller value than most snares in the game (i.e. if you have "major expedition" and hit with any snare in the game, you're slower than your enemy's default movement) while providing a modest resistance buff that is probably more efficient to get from a monster set. Let's not even begin to discuss what an Ice staff with the charged trait can do. The game's mechanics are very much biased toward slowing players down.
I do agree that snares have a place in the game and are a necessary mechanic (after all, I'm a templar, without them everyone would simply run away from me), but the balance is out of whack.
Even though I main a magblade, I would agree with a cripple nerf.
One of those abilities that works too well in dueling, but is surprisingly ineffective in BGs or cyrodill.
Kind of like elemental drain* (not blockade), everyone runs it while dueling, but in BGs, it's just not worth wasting a GCD.
Nerfing it a wouldn't effect magblades much in BGs, but will open up debate to finally get some meaningful buffs, since magblades won't be as good in dueling anymore.Edited by likecats on March 14, 2019 2:32AM1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
As a magplar main, I've never become too accustomed to be able to outrun everything at any point playing this game.
Earlier snares were absolutely an issue, if anything worse than it is now. Before gap closers put like a 60% auto-snare on you (even if you had immunity), the bombard skill stacked, the Encase skill snared you after the root, etc. People are trying to play the game, but ZOS implemented a blanket nerf on speed and snare counters. They themselves keep telling me in out rep meeting that movement is still an issue that they want to reform, so if even the devs acknowledge it, let's not kid ourselves: snares/root/movement speed in general is a problem.
Skills like Cripple are ridiculously overloaded: it does damage, put on a decent DoT, roots the target, and snares them. Meanwhile movement skills like boundless storm give a mere 4 seconds of a buff that's a smaller value than most snares in the game (i.e. if you have "major expedition" and hit with any snare in the game, you're slower than your enemy's default movement) while providing a modest resistance buff that is probably more efficient to get from a monster set. Let's not even begin to discuss what an Ice staff with the charged trait can do. The game's mechanics are very much biased toward slowing players down.
I do agree that snares have a place in the game and are a necessary mechanic (after all, I'm a templar, without them everyone would simply run away from me), but the balance is out of whack.
I think how fair snare/root access is needs to be looked at, as well as improve the access to mobility on classes. As a DK I have major expedition on chains of all skills, which makes no sense, why do I need a speed buff after closing the gap? And not to mention this limits build options as chains count as a CC and give immunity meaning I can't mindlessly spam it just to get expedition. (And well, the other morph is not so viable for stam. Already have 4 magicka skills slotted on my build and not gonna slot 5th. This is getting ridicilous.)
But enough of my pain, lets talk about this whole ''lets make every buff/debuff last 4 seconds'' madness that combat team has nowadays. I get that lowering defile from 10 to 4 improved gameplay, but that doesn't mean 4 seconds on everything is the way to go. Please kindly remind zenimax that they can be more creative than that and 4 seconds of expedition is simply ridicilous.Edited by Ragnarock41 on March 14, 2019 1:47AM2 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Even though I main a magblade, I would agree with a cripple nerf.
One of those abilities that works too well in dueling, but is surprisingly ineffective in BGs or cyrodill.
Kind of like elemental blockade, everyone runs it while dueling, but in BGs, it's just not worth wasting a GCD.
Nerfing it a wouldn't effect magblades much in BGs, but will open up debate to finally get some meaningful buffs, since magblades won't be as good in dueling anymore.
Wait what ? No one uses elemental blockade in bgs ?.
And cripple is effective in bgs for the simple fact there’s lower resources, definitely effective against mag builds.
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likecats✭✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »
Wait what ? No one uses elemental blockade in bgs ?.
And cripple is effective in bgs for the simple fact there’s lower resources, definitely effective against mag builds.
My bad, meant to say elemental drain not elemental blockade.
If you ever duel any mag build, they will be using elemental drain. Whereas in BGs, most of them switch it out for something else.
Cripple can be used to some effectiveness, but compared to how well it does in 1v1 vs how it does in BGs, it's a huge difference in effectiveness. In 1v1, the difference w/ or without cripple is one of domination vs getting dominated. In BGs, it has nowhere near the same effect, and is quite terrible vs ball groupers (which is every high mmr bg).
Either way, don't really care too much about cripple personally. I've used it extensively in dueling, bg and cyrodill. I am well aware how effective it is, and can reassure you that in BGs its not the godly ability it is in dueling, and is super ineffective vs ball groupers.'
If it gets nerfed, I'd be more than happy to have a debate opening up for potential magblade buffs by people who think its so great in BGs, and think magblade got nerfed to the ground because of this.
Edited by likecats on March 14, 2019 2:42AM0 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Even though I main a magblade, I would agree with a cripple nerf.
One of those abilities that works too well in dueling, but is surprisingly ineffective in BGs or cyrodill.
Kind of like elemental drain* (not blockade), everyone runs it while dueling, but in BGs, it's just not worth wasting a GCD.
Nerfing it a wouldn't effect magblades much in BGs, but will open up debate to finally get some meaningful buffs, since magblades won't be as good in dueling anymore.
ZOS thinks refreshing path was overloaded but cripple is fine lolFlawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info1 -
Trancestor✭✭✭✭✭BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »Snares are not a problem, they are a very effective tactic which frankly all too easy to counter.
I use an Ice Mage in PvP. If you build a CC, stun, snare, buff, debuff, heal support toon for PvP you get squat for damage. I mean high teens / low twenties DPS on even a simple 300K skeleton. With Battle Spirit in PVP you are doing around 10K DPS.
Is it worth it? Heck yea. Nothing, I mean nothing is more satisfying then to run up to a group of your alliance chasing some run around a rock in circles build for 10 mins and lay down some ice, immobilize and watch him melt. Puts a real smile on your face.
Similar when you run across some run away like a little girl build that is streaking around. Ice them down and watch them get gang tackled.
Pretty much all the Ice-Immobilize haters are NB streakers/swift run around a rock in circle builders and this is why snares are not a problem but an absolute Blessing to the game.
So a zergling snareden saying snares arent a problem because its easier to zerg down people thanks to snares lol...8 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Trancestor wrote: »
So a zergling snareden saying snares arent a problem because its easier to zerg down people thanks to snares lol...
Well, its the same for a solo snareden. And even then, anyone who wants to run from the snareden usually has a 100% success rate when not overcommitting in the first place.
I usually like your post because they are rather bias-free, but that one was kinda low.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on March 14, 2019 6:57AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Trancestor✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »
Well, its the same for a solo snareden. And even then, anyone who wants to run from the snareden usually has a 100% success rate when not overcommitting in the first place.
I usually like your post because they are rather bias-free, but that one was kinda low.
Im confused...you saying that because a solo snareden isnt effective then that means its ok for the zergling snareden to be over performing? Really dont see how me pointing out the irony of a self proclaimed zergling admitting snares are really strong when outnumbering is low...2 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Trancestor wrote: »
Im confused...you saying that because a solo snareden isnt effective then that means its ok for the zergling snareden to be over performing? Really dont see how me pointing out the irony of a self proclaimed zergling admitting snares are really strong when outnumbering is low...
I'm saying that the solo snareden relies on tools that the zergling snareden can obviously use too, and to greater effect when backed up by X other allies. Like any other effect in the game.
Taking those tools away would hit the solo snareden way harder than the zergling snareden.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on March 14, 2019 8:31AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Trancestor✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »
I'm saying that the solo snareden relies on tools that the zergling snareden can obviously use too, and to greater effect when backed up by X other allies. Like any other effect in the game.
Taking those tools away would hit the solo snareden way harder than the zergling snareden.
A solo snareden cant kill much anything anyway if all he relies on is snares, nerfing snares or just giving everybody better snare removal tools isnt going to make a solo snareden much worse when outnumbered, but it will make life easier for solo and small scale players when dealing with zergs.2 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Trancestor wrote: »
A solo snareden cant kill much anything anyway if all he relies on is snares, nerfing snares or just giving everybody better snare removal tools isnt going to make a solo snareden much worse when outnumbered, but it will make life easier for solo and small scale players when dealing with zergs.
As a snareden who enjoys the already challenging solo play with the setup, I disagree and appreciate anything that helps underdog solo builds to perform better in those areas.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on March 14, 2019 9:05AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Trancestor✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »
As a snareden who enjoys the already challenging solo play with the setup, I disagree and appreciate anything that helps underdog solo builds to perform better in those areas.
But then you're being biased here, you want to keep your playstyle that relies on a mechanic that is over performing and is a big part of why pvp is far less enjoyable than it could be, just so your sorta niche build which like only 0.1% of pvpers play, can be better.5 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Trancestor wrote: »
But then you're being biased here, you want to keep your playstyle that relies on a mechanic that is over performing and is a big part of why pvp is far less enjoyable than it could be, just so your sorta niche build which like only 0.1% of pvpers play, can be better.
Or you could view it as giving tools to non-mobile builds as a viable alternative to "ugh-ugh-i-can-run-so-fast". Lockdown builds are very prevalent in other games, making them far more diverse. Its just ESO players that have been accustomed to: mobility or gtfo.
I think the recent changes make the game richer. It's not that it is turning the tides, mobility still is more advantaged in solo/smallscale. Just not as much anymore.
I have two fully developed stamsorcs, I know both sides. You guys exaggerate a lot.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on March 14, 2019 10:43AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Burtan✭✭✭✭
If you are outnumbered 20 to 1, you should die.
There is already a very high chance that the 1 person will die in such a situation but that does not necessarily mean they should just instantly die or even die to completely ridiculous things like 70% snares. They should instead be given the chance to move and escape or fight it and perhaps take a few players with them.
This "You should not be able to win outnumbered" nonsense needs to be done away with and the kinds of people getting mad about it or trying to 20v1 in the first place need to get better at the game and stop dragging everyone else down with them.6 -
Burtan✭✭✭✭BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »Snares are not a problem, they are a very effective tactic which frankly all too easy to counter.
I use an Ice Mage in PvP. If you build a CC, stun, snare, buff, debuff, heal support toon for PvP you get squat for damage. I mean high teens / low twenties DPS on even a simple 300K skeleton. With Battle Spirit in PVP you are doing around 10K DPS.
Is it worth it? Heck yea. Nothing, I mean nothing is more satisfying then to run up to a group of your alliance chasing some run around a rock in circles build for 10 mins and lay down some ice, immobilize and watch him melt. Puts a real smile on your face.
Similar when you run across some run away like a little girl build that is streaking around. Ice them down and watch them get gang tackled.
Pretty much all the Ice-Immobilize haters are NB streakers/swift run around a rock in circle builders and this is why snares are not a problem but an absolute Blessing to the game.
Why are you chasing 1 guy to begin with? go find more interesting PvP.
5 -
MalagenR✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
As a magplar main, I've never become too accustomed to be able to outrun everything at any point playing this game.
Earlier snares were absolutely an issue, if anything worse than it is now. Before gap closers put like a 60% auto-snare on you (even if you had immunity), the bombard skill stacked, the Encase skill snared you after the root, etc. People are trying to play the game, but ZOS implemented a blanket nerf on speed and snare counters. They themselves keep telling me in out rep meeting that movement is still an issue that they want to reform, so if even the devs acknowledge it, let's not kid ourselves: snares/root/movement speed in general is a problem.
Skills like Cripple are ridiculously overloaded: it does damage, put on a decent DoT, roots the target, and snares them. Meanwhile movement skills like boundless storm give a mere 4 seconds of a buff that's a smaller value than most snares in the game (i.e. if you have "major expedition" and hit with any snare in the game, you're slower than your enemy's default movement) while providing a modest resistance buff that is probably more efficient to get from a monster set. Let's not even begin to discuss what an Ice staff with the charged trait can do. The game's mechanics are very much biased toward slowing players down.
I do agree that snares have a place in the game and are a necessary mechanic (after all, I'm a templar, without them everyone would simply run away from me), but the balance is out of whack.
You have to make a serious sacrifice to run frost staff charged. You can't put charged frost staff on any build and have real success. I don't think that's a fair assessment. It's like saying, "Let's not even discuss what Nirnhoned/Sharpened Spriggans Maul can do with Incap or Dawnbreaker"Edited by MalagenR on March 14, 2019 3:31PM1 -
MalagenR✭✭✭✭✭
Why are you chasing 1 guy to begin with? go find more interesting PvP.
If I see 20 noobs chasing 1 guy who is farming them with 90 ultimate dawnbreakers I also will ice him. Those 20 noobs are on my faction and if I want more interesting PVP I need the zerg to be able to push down into red/blue territory so that I can run ganks on popular lines of travel and get more AP.
If that 1 guy thinks killin 20 noobs is fun I think he should be careful if he sees my name. Period.
Red is dead.1 -
Karmanorway✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sypherioth wrote: »
So you expect to when melee gets at you he should not have tools to keep you in range continuesly? You should be able to roam free like 90% of the time? Or whenever some melee gets to your ranged char you should not be able to keep him ranged before he arrivés at you?
Remove the snares and eso becomes range fest again. Now melee fights are usefull because you can stay onto people. Easy snare removal will only reduce dmg melee can do in pvp.
Thats not the issue, the issue is when u are outnumbered. 1vsX was fine until the snare meta came0
