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Alright, something needs to be done about SnB
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Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I fail to see how OP has explain how S&B, and more specifically how heroic slash is the problem. It is certainly not a great damage skill on it's own.
On its own? No. If someone is just spamming HS they aren't going to get very far. If you weave it with LA, HS and Bash, then you've got yourself some pretty fast paced DPS. While you've finished a full rotation, I'm still winding up my Dizzying Swing that you've already walked through and cancelled.
Let's not forget about those other sweet bonuses:
- 60% snare
- Minor Heroism (1 ulti every 1.5 sec)
- Minor Maim (reduce damage done by 15%)
To top that off, like others have said, in specific heavy armor sets you can get the tooltip on HS very high. In combination with the light attack and bash you're doing some serious damage, and getting the other benefits this skill has to offer.
To anyone who tries to say this ability isn't overperforming, I'd really like you to convince me otherwise.
Good luck using HS+bash as your main spammable on a heavy armor build, we are talking about 3500 stamina drain per second.
Not saying this isn't strong, just saying you need to consider all the details when talking about balance.
With cost reduction jewellery, throwing in some heavy attacks (which restore a lot in HA, especially combined with tenacity, and are relatively quick with SnB), constitution passive, and depending on your race/class, managing it is really not that difficult.
On my Imperial DK I very rarely go under 50% stamina unless I'm heavily outnumbered.2 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the number of "DPS Tanks" in PvP is getting out of control. It should not be possible to hit a 10k heroic slash tooltip with above capped resistances, especially considering all the other utility it provides. Quite frankly, HS is overloaded.
My suggestion is simple: Remove, or significantly reduce the damage portion of this skill, as well as puncture. They were made to be utility abilities for tanks, not to outdamage a medium armor build smashing you with dizzying swing.
Tanks do not need to be dealing the amount of damage they do while also having the gift of immortality. I'd go further to also reduce the damage of bash (interrupt, not the SnB skill).
Please note, I'm just asking for the damage part to be taken away. So this should not affect PvE as the utility of these skills are completely left in place. In fact, with the damage part completely nerfed you could make up for it by reducing the cost of the skill by 3-5%
So Kill off Stam Dks? NO!Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the number of "DPS Tanks" in PvP is getting out of control. It should not be possible to hit a 10k heroic slash tooltip with above capped resistances, especially considering all the other utility it provides. Quite frankly, HS is overloaded.
My suggestion is simple: Remove, or significantly reduce the damage portion of this skill, as well as puncture. They were made to be utility abilities for tanks, not to outdamage a medium armor build smashing you with dizzying swing.
Tanks do not need to be dealing the amount of damage they do while also having the gift of immortality. I'd go further to also reduce the damage of bash (interrupt, not the SnB skill).
Please note, I'm just asking for the damage part to be taken away. So this should not affect PvE as the utility of these skills are completely left in place. In fact, with the damage part completely nerfed you could make up for it by reducing the cost of the skill by 3-5%
So Kill off Stam Dks? NO!
Stam DKs can't use other weapon abilities? I mean, if they are forced into using SnB isn't that evidence of a serious flaw?2 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anti_Virus wrote: »I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the number of "DPS Tanks" in PvP is getting out of control. It should not be possible to hit a 10k heroic slash tooltip with above capped resistances, especially considering all the other utility it provides. Quite frankly, HS is overloaded.
My suggestion is simple: Remove, or significantly reduce the damage portion of this skill, as well as puncture. They were made to be utility abilities for tanks, not to outdamage a medium armor build smashing you with dizzying swing.
Tanks do not need to be dealing the amount of damage they do while also having the gift of immortality. I'd go further to also reduce the damage of bash (interrupt, not the SnB skill).
Please note, I'm just asking for the damage part to be taken away. So this should not affect PvE as the utility of these skills are completely left in place. In fact, with the damage part completely nerfed you could make up for it by reducing the cost of the skill by 3-5%
So Kill off Stam Dks? NO!
Stam DKs can't use other weapon abilities? I mean, if they are forced into using SnB isn't that evidence of a serious flaw?
Nope, good luck landing dizzing swing on people in pvp and since ZOS refuses to buff stam dk with a spammable we are stuck with *** dots that cant compete with bleeds. Same with stam sorcs
Yeah its a major flaw but The devs seem content with that.Edited by Anti_Virus on March 17, 2019 11:27AMPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
Aznox✭✭✭✭✭I fail to see how OP has explain how S&B, and more specifically how heroic slash is the problem. It is certainly not a great damage skill on it's own.
On its own? No. If someone is just spamming HS they aren't going to get very far. If you weave it with LA, HS and Bash, then you've got yourself some pretty fast paced DPS. While you've finished a full rotation, I'm still winding up my Dizzying Swing that you've already walked through and cancelled.
Let's not forget about those other sweet bonuses:
- 60% snare
- Minor Heroism (1 ulti every 1.5 sec)
- Minor Maim (reduce damage done by 15%)
To top that off, like others have said, in specific heavy armor sets you can get the tooltip on HS very high. In combination with the light attack and bash you're doing some serious damage, and getting the other benefits this skill has to offer.
To anyone who tries to say this ability isn't overperforming, I'd really like you to convince me otherwise.
Good luck using HS+bash as your main spammable on a heavy armor build, we are talking about 3500 stamina drain per second.
Not saying this isn't strong, just saying you need to consider all the details when talking about balance.
With cost reduction jewellery, throwing in some heavy attacks (which restore a lot in HA, especially combined with tenacity, and are relatively quick with SnB), constitution passive, and depending on your race/class, managing it is really not that difficult.
On my Imperial DK I very rarely go under 50% stamina unless I'm heavily outnumbered.
How you make it work is irrelevant unless you can weight the trade-off against every possible combination, what is important is the stamina to damage ratio.
Again, i'm not saying HS+bash is weak, i'm saying you need to consider the whole picture if you want to demonstrate anything about balance.
Aznox
PC EU
Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
I live in Battlegrounds
Theorycrafting enthusiast
Official Cheese Lord
CP1500+ club0 -
Aznox✭✭✭✭✭IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »
Lower tool tip then pierce armor & no fracture.
This one really dislikes it not to mention he very foolish exicute making this khajiit look like a ballerina gone wrong.
with proper timing each cast of rending will get you one tick of bleed per second (first tick happens after 1 sec and then every 2 sec)Edited by Aznox on March 17, 2019 11:36AMAznox
PC EU
Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
I live in Battlegrounds
Theorycrafting enthusiast
Official Cheese Lord
CP1500+ club3 -
Burtan✭✭✭✭IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »
Lower tool tip then pierce armor & no fracture.
This one really dislikes it not to mention he very foolish exicute making this khajiit look like a ballerina gone wrong.
with proper timing each cast of rending will get you one tick of bleed per second (first tick happens after 1 sec and then every 2 sec)
It cannot be denied that rending is one of the most broken things in the game right now due to it being easily combined with passive bleeds and enchants for absurd amounts of pressure and damage while also restoring resources on the heavy attack (ZOS said they wanted to separate damage and resource return but here it is not the case). In my opinion this combination is something that does deserve a nerf.
Any monkey and their grandmother can spam rending, bleeds and enchants while Heroic Slash does require you to be careful managing your resources, choosing between light attack/heroic/light attack/bash cancel and a much slower and less damaging heavy attack/heroic combo.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I fail to see how OP has explain how S&B, and more specifically how heroic slash is the problem. It is certainly not a great damage skill on it's own.
On its own? No. If someone is just spamming HS they aren't going to get very far. If you weave it with LA, HS and Bash, then you've got yourself some pretty fast paced DPS. While you've finished a full rotation, I'm still winding up my Dizzying Swing that you've already walked through and cancelled.
Let's not forget about those other sweet bonuses:
- 60% snare
- Minor Heroism (1 ulti every 1.5 sec)
- Minor Maim (reduce damage done by 15%)
To top that off, like others have said, in specific heavy armor sets you can get the tooltip on HS very high. In combination with the light attack and bash you're doing some serious damage, and getting the other benefits this skill has to offer.
To anyone who tries to say this ability isn't overperforming, I'd really like you to convince me otherwise.
From this it is clear you think the skill itself is fine. You even state that. You seem to be taking issue with AC which is totally different.
BTW, you state this skill is not overperforming while at the same time trying to say it is when used with other things. I am not putting words in your mouth either.
Edited by idk on March 17, 2019 1:37PM4 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I fail to see how OP has explain how S&B, and more specifically how heroic slash is the problem. It is certainly not a great damage skill on it's own.
On its own? No. If someone is just spamming HS they aren't going to get very far. If you weave it with LA, HS and Bash, then you've got yourself some pretty fast paced DPS. While you've finished a full rotation, I'm still winding up my Dizzying Swing that you've already walked through and cancelled.
Let's not forget about those other sweet bonuses:
- 60% snare
- Minor Heroism (1 ulti every 1.5 sec)
- Minor Maim (reduce damage done by 15%)
To top that off, like others have said, in specific heavy armor sets you can get the tooltip on HS very high. In combination with the light attack and bash you're doing some serious damage, and getting the other benefits this skill has to offer.
To anyone who tries to say this ability isn't overperforming, I'd really like you to convince me otherwise.
From this it is clear you think the skill itself is fine. You even state that. You seem to be taking issue with AC which is totally different.
BTW, you state this skill is not overperforming while at the same time trying to say it is when used with other things. I am not putting words in your mouth either.
I should have been more clear. I meant the damage portion of it on its own. I still think the skill is hugely overloaded. If anything, that snare needs to go or be severely reduced.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I fail to see how OP has explain how S&B, and more specifically how heroic slash is the problem. It is certainly not a great damage skill on it's own.
On its own? No. If someone is just spamming HS they aren't going to get very far. If you weave it with LA, HS and Bash, then you've got yourself some pretty fast paced DPS. While you've finished a full rotation, I'm still winding up my Dizzying Swing that you've already walked through and cancelled.
Let's not forget about those other sweet bonuses:
- 60% snare
- Minor Heroism (1 ulti every 1.5 sec)
- Minor Maim (reduce damage done by 15%)
To top that off, like others have said, in specific heavy armor sets you can get the tooltip on HS very high. In combination with the light attack and bash you're doing some serious damage, and getting the other benefits this skill has to offer.
To anyone who tries to say this ability isn't overperforming, I'd really like you to convince me otherwise.
From this it is clear you think the skill itself is fine. You even state that. You seem to be taking issue with AC which is totally different.
BTW, you state this skill is not overperforming while at the same time trying to say it is when used with other things. I am not putting words in your mouth either.
I should have been more clear. I meant the damage portion of it on its own. I still think the skill is hugely overloaded. If anything, that snare needs to go or be severely reduced.
I am sure Zos has seen this thread. If they agree then we can expect changes, especially with the new combat "vision" they are developing. If not then it will remain similar to how it is now.
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Iki✭✭✭I fail to see how OP has explain how S&B, and more specifically how heroic slash is the problem. It is certainly not a great damage skill on it's own.
On its own? No. If someone is just spamming HS they aren't going to get very far. If you weave it with LA, HS and Bash, then you've got yourself some pretty fast paced DPS. While you've finished a full rotation, I'm still winding up my Dizzying Swing that you've already walked through and cancelled.
Let's not forget about those other sweet bonuses:
- 60% snare
- Minor Heroism (1 ulti every 1.5 sec)
- Minor Maim (reduce damage done by 15%)
To top that off, like others have said, in specific heavy armor sets you can get the tooltip on HS very high. In combination with the light attack and bash you're doing some serious damage, and getting the other benefits this skill has to offer.
To anyone who tries to say this ability isn't overperforming, I'd really like you to convince me otherwise.
From this it is clear you think the skill itself is fine. You even state that. You seem to be taking issue with AC which is totally different.
BTW, you state this skill is not overperforming while at the same time trying to say it is when used with other things. I am not putting words in your mouth either.
I should have been more clear. I meant the damage portion of it on its own. I still think the skill is hugely overloaded. If anything, that snare needs to go or be severely reduced.
I`m probably not only one who would not mind if they removed snare from heroic slash, there really is way too much snares in pvp already. But you seem to exaggerate awesomeness of heroic slash here. Nerf heroic slash too much and everyone just switch to pierce armor/ransack and your problem doesn`t really go away, heavy stam-bois with s&b would continue dealing good damage.
If you want to lower dps with s&b perhaps you should advocate removal or nerfing damage bash deals... At least for me it would make sense if bash was used only for interrupting, not for increasing dps.3 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I still dont understand the argument that heroic slash is too good. Literally in the same paragraph its stated that the combo of light attack and bash with heroic slash is what's dealing too much damage.
If you actually look at the damage of heroic slash, it's not great, and you could weave any number of other abilities to achieve the same damage, like ransack or crushing weapon.
If the argument is that heroic slash has too much utility attached to it, then that's a fair point. Because a snare, minor maim, and minor heroism is a lot for one attack. However, may I remind you that these are all things that tanks want and need.
Tanks, especially non Dk tanks really need that snare, and it's usually the main source if not only source of minor maim. That leaves minor heroism and base damage of the ability. The only other available source of minor heroism is from a set bonus for tanks, and while lowering the base damage wouldnt hurt tanks too much, I still dont think it needs it. The skill doesn't deal too much damage on ownit's own, especially since the cost is higher than other abilities so the damage to cost ratio is already lower.
If anything, I would say lower the damage of bash, or fix weaving in general. (May I remind everyone that animation cancelling and weaving was never intended and is still technically an exploit by definition).1 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I fail to see how OP has explain how S&B, and more specifically how heroic slash is the problem. It is certainly not a great damage skill on it's own.
On its own? No. If someone is just spamming HS they aren't going to get very far. If you weave it with LA, HS and Bash, then you've got yourself some pretty fast paced DPS. While you've finished a full rotation, I'm still winding up my Dizzying Swing that you've already walked through and cancelled.
Let's not forget about those other sweet bonuses:
- 60% snare
- Minor Heroism (1 ulti every 1.5 sec)
- Minor Maim (reduce damage done by 15%)
To top that off, like others have said, in specific heavy armor sets you can get the tooltip on HS very high. In combination with the light attack and bash you're doing some serious damage, and getting the other benefits this skill has to offer.
To anyone who tries to say this ability isn't overperforming, I'd really like you to convince me otherwise.
From this it is clear you think the skill itself is fine. You even state that. You seem to be taking issue with AC which is totally different.
BTW, you state this skill is not overperforming while at the same time trying to say it is when used with other things. I am not putting words in your mouth either.
I should have been more clear. I meant the damage portion of it on its own. I still think the skill is hugely overloaded. If anything, that snare needs to go or be severely reduced.
I`m probably not only one who would not mind if they removed snare from heroic slash, there really is way too much snares in pvp already. But you seem to exaggerate awesomeness of heroic slash here. Nerf heroic slash too much and everyone just switch to pierce armor/ransack and your problem doesn`t really go away, heavy stam-bois with s&b would continue dealing good damage.
If you want to lower dps with s&b perhaps you should advocate removal or nerfing damage bash deals... At least for me it would make sense if bash was used only for interrupting, not for increasing dps.
Perhaps I was too tunnel visioned in my approach, and simply removing the damage from bash would deter SnB DPS. I'm actually not against this idea.
Still, I don't think I over-exaggerated the usefulness of heroic. I'm not saying they need to completely neuter this skill, but the snare either needs to go or it needs a slight cost increase. Having said that, if using it as an offensive weapon was less viable (ie: removing damage from bash), then perhaps we wouldn't see nearly every heavy armor build out there weaving this ability.1 -
RavenSworn✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »Observing people's opinions about state of things in Cyrodiil is tremendously amusing.
Some say half of Cyrodiil is cloaking, snipe-spamming nightblades. Some say half of Cyrodiil is overpowered S&B builds. Some say half of Cyrodiil is bleed DW builds (and we had to nerf DW because of that). Some say half of Cyrodiil are ice wardens, pet sorcs, mag DKs with their vicious flame lash (also half of Cyrodiil), underline as required, and it's probably not even a complete list. Sounds like Cyrodiil is some fancy mathematical abstraction that has more than two halves.
Or maybe I should listen to those who say that Cyrodiil is empty because of lag. Sounds legit. ^^
LOL, you won this thread mate. That really snorted my coffee out.Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.
Of Wolf and Raven
Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!1 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.2 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.
Uhm... how about a good old NO? Why does everything has to suck in this game again? Do you want stamblade to be the only viable stam class in the game?Edited by Ragnarock41 on March 18, 2019 8:07AM7 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.
Uhm... how about a good old NO? Why does everything has to suck in this game again? Do you want stamblade to be the only viable stam class in the game?
And having an overtuned ability in SnB makes that ok? Wouldn't it be better if they reworked Wrecking Blow and rapid strikes so they didn't suck instead?2 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.
Uhm... how about a good old NO? Why does everything has to suck in this game again? Do you want stamblade to be the only viable stam class in the game?
Who says I don't want stamblades to be more down to earth? (I do, trust me and at this point I even consider medium armor stamblade in open world as cheese due to how forgiving it is), but afaik, this isn't a thread about stamblades.
But just looking and comparing Deep Slash and Heroic Slash it's quite clear which morph is the more superior one in 99/100 cases.Edited by Qbiken on March 18, 2019 8:22AM4 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
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This was the case with Uppercut, so they moved the CC portion to Dizzying. It's about time Low Slash got the same treatment, but I hope they make both morphs viable *cough*Wrecking Blow*ahem*Ragnarock41 wrote: »Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.
Uhm... how about a good old NO? Why does everything has to suck in this game again? Do you want stamblade to be the only viable stam class in the game?
But just looking and comparing Deep Slash and Heroic Slash it's quite clear which morph is the more superior one in 99/100 cases.
Edited by Alucardo on March 18, 2019 8:21AM2 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.
Uhm... how about a good old NO? Why does everything has to suck in this game again? Do you want stamblade to be the only viable stam class in the game?
Who says I don't want stamblades to be more down to earth? (I do, trust me and at this point I even consider medium armor stamblade in open world as cheese due to how forgiving it is), but afaik, this isn't a thread about stamblades.
But just looking and comparing Deep Slash and Heroic Slash it's quite clear which morph is the more superior one in 99/100 cases.
Look, heroic slash has a close but lower scaling than suprise attack, it has three separate effects just like suprise attack and it does cost more than suprise attack. It is only available if you use SnB which is quite a limitation.
Yes SnB has one good spammable, its the only good weapon ability spammable in the game, as far as PvP goes.
Its the only spammable that Dk and sorc can use without feeling like they are cannon fodder for all the cheese stamblades or petsorcs to eat them raw.. Please, for the love of god leave it alone. I saw this happened to wrecking blow and it absolutely killed that ability.
IF deep slash is bad, then consider buffing that morph. I don't think this is a viable solution to anything nor does it serve any purpose. OP seems salty but dual wield builds are perfectly capable of dealing with SnB.5 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.
Uhm... how about a good old NO? Why does everything has to suck in this game again? Do you want stamblade to be the only viable stam class in the game?
And having an overtuned ability in SnB makes that ok? Wouldn't it be better if they reworked Wrecking Blow and rapid strikes so they didn't suck instead?
Overtuned according to who? Stamblades?
The answer is clearly buffing wrecking blow and rapid strikes.Edited by Ragnarock41 on March 18, 2019 8:40AM1 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
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Certainly not salty. I just believe that heroic slash does too much, which it does. No other DD ability offers that, and especially for an instant cast. 15% damage mitigation is nothing to laugh about, nor is a 60% snare (total B.S btw) and increased ult gen, and we're talking about an ability that is used as a spammable, so 100% uptime.Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.
Uhm... how about a good old NO? Why does everything has to suck in this game again? Do you want stamblade to be the only viable stam class in the game?
Who says I don't want stamblades to be more down to earth? (I do, trust me and at this point I even consider medium armor stamblade in open world as cheese due to how forgiving it is), but afaik, this isn't a thread about stamblades.
But just looking and comparing Deep Slash and Heroic Slash it's quite clear which morph is the more superior one in 99/100 cases.
IF deep slash is bad, then consider buffing that morph. I don't think this is a viable solution to anything nor does it serve any purpose. OP seems salty but dual wield builds are perfectly capable of dealing with SnB.
And sure, Dual wield is strong, if you've got master weapons. The main DD spammable in that tree is rapid strikes, and it's absolutely trash.2 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
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Certainly not salty. I just believe that heroic slash does too much, which it does. No other DD ability offers that, and especially for an instant cast. 15% damage mitigation is nothing to laugh about, nor is a 60% snare (total B.S btw) and increased ult gen, and we're talking about an ability that is used as a spammable, so 100% uptime.Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.
Uhm... how about a good old NO? Why does everything has to suck in this game again? Do you want stamblade to be the only viable stam class in the game?
Who says I don't want stamblades to be more down to earth? (I do, trust me and at this point I even consider medium armor stamblade in open world as cheese due to how forgiving it is), but afaik, this isn't a thread about stamblades.
But just looking and comparing Deep Slash and Heroic Slash it's quite clear which morph is the more superior one in 99/100 cases.
IF deep slash is bad, then consider buffing that morph. I don't think this is a viable solution to anything nor does it serve any purpose. OP seems salty but dual wield builds are perfectly capable of dealing with SnB.
And sure, Dual wield is strong, if you've got master weapons. The main DD spammable in that tree is rapid strikes, and it's absolutely trash.
FYI with master weapons your rending slash alone will hit like a heroic slash every 2 seconds anyways, while ignoring block and dodge roll. And thats much more light on the sustain side of things, you don't even need rapid strikes, just heavy attack into rending slash. DW doesn't have as good spammables but do you know when I have the most headache as dual wield/2h user?
When I fight stamblades/magsorcs, that just won't forgive you for using something as dumb as dizzying swing. Thats when I realize I need either a rending dw build or an SnB heroic slash build. Nerfing heroic doesn't help your case, cause like it or not as stamDk you are basically forced into heroic slash, as dizzying swing doesn't really work on Dk as well as it does for stamsorc, due to lack of speed and hurricane which auto-breaks cloak for you.1 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Certainly not salty. I just believe that heroic slash does too much, which it does. No other DD ability offers that, and especially for an instant cast. 15% damage mitigation is nothing to laugh about, nor is a 60% snare (total B.S btw) and increased ult gen, and we're talking about an ability that is used as a spammable, so 100% uptime.Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.
Uhm... how about a good old NO? Why does everything has to suck in this game again? Do you want stamblade to be the only viable stam class in the game?
Who says I don't want stamblades to be more down to earth? (I do, trust me and at this point I even consider medium armor stamblade in open world as cheese due to how forgiving it is), but afaik, this isn't a thread about stamblades.
But just looking and comparing Deep Slash and Heroic Slash it's quite clear which morph is the more superior one in 99/100 cases.
IF deep slash is bad, then consider buffing that morph. I don't think this is a viable solution to anything nor does it serve any purpose. OP seems salty but dual wield builds are perfectly capable of dealing with SnB.
And sure, Dual wield is strong, if you've got master weapons. The main DD spammable in that tree is rapid strikes, and it's absolutely trash.
FYI with master weapons your rending slash alone will hit like a heroic slash every 2 seconds anyways, while ignoring block and dodge roll. And thats much more light on the sustain side of things, you don't even need rapid strikes, just heavy attack into rending slash. DW doesn't have as good spammables but do you know when I have the most headache as dual wield/2h user?
When I fight stamblades/magsorcs, that just won't forgive you for using something as dumb as dizzying swing. Thats when I realize I need either a rending dw build or an SnB heroic slash build. Nerfing heroic doesn't help your case, cause like it or not as stamDk you are basically forced into heroic slash, as dizzying swing doesn't really work on Dk as well as it does for stamsorc, due to lack of speed and hurricane which auto-breaks cloak for you.
It must be nice to have SnB, which doesn't require the power of vDSA drops to be useful. The damage of rending without them is abysmal, and can easily be healed through.
Anyway, as I've mentioned countless times in previous comments, I'd be happy if they buffed useless skills in dw/2h tree and reduced or removed the snare from Heroic1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Certainly not salty. I just believe that heroic slash does too much, which it does. No other DD ability offers that, and especially for an instant cast. 15% damage mitigation is nothing to laugh about, nor is a 60% snare (total B.S btw) and increased ult gen, and we're talking about an ability that is used as a spammable, so 100% uptime.Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.
Uhm... how about a good old NO? Why does everything has to suck in this game again? Do you want stamblade to be the only viable stam class in the game?
Who says I don't want stamblades to be more down to earth? (I do, trust me and at this point I even consider medium armor stamblade in open world as cheese due to how forgiving it is), but afaik, this isn't a thread about stamblades.
But just looking and comparing Deep Slash and Heroic Slash it's quite clear which morph is the more superior one in 99/100 cases.
IF deep slash is bad, then consider buffing that morph. I don't think this is a viable solution to anything nor does it serve any purpose. OP seems salty but dual wield builds are perfectly capable of dealing with SnB.
And sure, Dual wield is strong, if you've got master weapons. The main DD spammable in that tree is rapid strikes, and it's absolutely trash.
FYI with master weapons your rending slash alone will hit like a heroic slash every 2 seconds anyways, while ignoring block and dodge roll. And thats much more light on the sustain side of things, you don't even need rapid strikes, just heavy attack into rending slash. DW doesn't have as good spammables but do you know when I have the most headache as dual wield/2h user?
When I fight stamblades/magsorcs, that just won't forgive you for using something as dumb as dizzying swing. Thats when I realize I need either a rending dw build or an SnB heroic slash build. Nerfing heroic doesn't help your case, cause like it or not as stamDk you are basically forced into heroic slash, as dizzying swing doesn't really work on Dk as well as it does for stamsorc, due to lack of speed and hurricane which auto-breaks cloak for you.
It must be nice to have SnB, which doesn't require the power of vDSA drops to be useful. The damage of rending without them is abysmal, and can easily be healed through.
Anyway, as I've mentioned countless times in previous comments, I'd be happy if they buffed useless skills in dw/2h tree and reduced or removed the snare from Heroic
Except if you want buffs to useless skills , you make a thread for that. And you don't need master axes to make dual wield work, the damage of rending without them isn't abysmal, Its still the BEST ST DOT you can get for your PvP build so stop being ridicilously biased.
* Talks about the best single target dot ability in the game
''does abysmal damage''
''easily healed through''
Yeah I can see you are pretty well informed there my friend.
Edited by Ragnarock41 on March 18, 2019 8:56AM3 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Certainly not salty. I just believe that heroic slash does too much, which it does. No other DD ability offers that, and especially for an instant cast. 15% damage mitigation is nothing to laugh about, nor is a 60% snare (total B.S btw) and increased ult gen, and we're talking about an ability that is used as a spammable, so 100% uptime.Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.
Uhm... how about a good old NO? Why does everything has to suck in this game again? Do you want stamblade to be the only viable stam class in the game?
Who says I don't want stamblades to be more down to earth? (I do, trust me and at this point I even consider medium armor stamblade in open world as cheese due to how forgiving it is), but afaik, this isn't a thread about stamblades.
But just looking and comparing Deep Slash and Heroic Slash it's quite clear which morph is the more superior one in 99/100 cases.
IF deep slash is bad, then consider buffing that morph. I don't think this is a viable solution to anything nor does it serve any purpose. OP seems salty but dual wield builds are perfectly capable of dealing with SnB.
And sure, Dual wield is strong, if you've got master weapons. The main DD spammable in that tree is rapid strikes, and it's absolutely trash.
FYI with master weapons your rending slash alone will hit like a heroic slash every 2 seconds anyways, while ignoring block and dodge roll. And thats much more light on the sustain side of things, you don't even need rapid strikes, just heavy attack into rending slash. DW doesn't have as good spammables but do you know when I have the most headache as dual wield/2h user?
When I fight stamblades/magsorcs, that just won't forgive you for using something as dumb as dizzying swing. Thats when I realize I need either a rending dw build or an SnB heroic slash build. Nerfing heroic doesn't help your case, cause like it or not as stamDk you are basically forced into heroic slash, as dizzying swing doesn't really work on Dk as well as it does for stamsorc, due to lack of speed and hurricane which auto-breaks cloak for you.
It must be nice to have SnB, which doesn't require the power of vDSA drops to be useful. The damage of rending without them is abysmal, and can easily be healed through.
Anyway, as I've mentioned countless times in previous comments, I'd be happy if they buffed useless skills in dw/2h tree and reduced or removed the snare from Heroic
Except if you want buffs to useless skills , you make a thread for that. And you don't need master axes to make dual wield work, the damage of rending without them isn't abysmal, Its still the BEST ST DOT you can get for your PvP build so stop being ridicilously biased.
I made this thread because I still think Heroic is overperforming. No counter argument exists that would change my mind. It simply does too much for a spammable, and if you bring Nightblades into this... I swear *clenches fist*1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Certainly not salty. I just believe that heroic slash does too much, which it does. No other DD ability offers that, and especially for an instant cast. 15% damage mitigation is nothing to laugh about, nor is a 60% snare (total B.S btw) and increased ult gen, and we're talking about an ability that is used as a spammable, so 100% uptime.Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.
Uhm... how about a good old NO? Why does everything has to suck in this game again? Do you want stamblade to be the only viable stam class in the game?
Who says I don't want stamblades to be more down to earth? (I do, trust me and at this point I even consider medium armor stamblade in open world as cheese due to how forgiving it is), but afaik, this isn't a thread about stamblades.
But just looking and comparing Deep Slash and Heroic Slash it's quite clear which morph is the more superior one in 99/100 cases.
IF deep slash is bad, then consider buffing that morph. I don't think this is a viable solution to anything nor does it serve any purpose. OP seems salty but dual wield builds are perfectly capable of dealing with SnB.
And sure, Dual wield is strong, if you've got master weapons. The main DD spammable in that tree is rapid strikes, and it's absolutely trash.
FYI with master weapons your rending slash alone will hit like a heroic slash every 2 seconds anyways, while ignoring block and dodge roll. And thats much more light on the sustain side of things, you don't even need rapid strikes, just heavy attack into rending slash. DW doesn't have as good spammables but do you know when I have the most headache as dual wield/2h user?
When I fight stamblades/magsorcs, that just won't forgive you for using something as dumb as dizzying swing. Thats when I realize I need either a rending dw build or an SnB heroic slash build. Nerfing heroic doesn't help your case, cause like it or not as stamDk you are basically forced into heroic slash, as dizzying swing doesn't really work on Dk as well as it does for stamsorc, due to lack of speed and hurricane which auto-breaks cloak for you.
It must be nice to have SnB, which doesn't require the power of vDSA drops to be useful. The damage of rending without them is abysmal, and can easily be healed through.
Anyway, as I've mentioned countless times in previous comments, I'd be happy if they buffed useless skills in dw/2h tree and reduced or removed the snare from Heroic
Except if you want buffs to useless skills , you make a thread for that. And you don't need master axes to make dual wield work, the damage of rending without them isn't abysmal, Its still the BEST ST DOT you can get for your PvP build so stop being ridicilously biased.
I made this thread because I still think Heroic is overperforming. No counter argument exists that would change my mind. It simply does too much for a spammable, and if you bring Nightblades into this... I swear *clenches fist*
Your OP is clearly shows you want to completely pigeonhole SnB into PvE tanking. I don't care much for nightblades but if you nerf heroic slash/pierce armor, the result will be yet another weapon only viable for stamblades.
Edit: And oh, you don't need to be a macrolord to ani cancel a HS, you only need fingers faster than of a sloth.Edited by Ragnarock41 on March 18, 2019 9:21AM6 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Certainly not salty. I just believe that heroic slash does too much, which it does. No other DD ability offers that, and especially for an instant cast. 15% damage mitigation is nothing to laugh about, nor is a 60% snare (total B.S btw) and increased ult gen, and we're talking about an ability that is used as a spammable, so 100% uptime.Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.
Uhm... how about a good old NO? Why does everything has to suck in this game again? Do you want stamblade to be the only viable stam class in the game?
Who says I don't want stamblades to be more down to earth? (I do, trust me and at this point I even consider medium armor stamblade in open world as cheese due to how forgiving it is), but afaik, this isn't a thread about stamblades.
But just looking and comparing Deep Slash and Heroic Slash it's quite clear which morph is the more superior one in 99/100 cases.
IF deep slash is bad, then consider buffing that morph. I don't think this is a viable solution to anything nor does it serve any purpose. OP seems salty but dual wield builds are perfectly capable of dealing with SnB.
And sure, Dual wield is strong, if you've got master weapons. The main DD spammable in that tree is rapid strikes, and it's absolutely trash.
FYI with master weapons your rending slash alone will hit like a heroic slash every 2 seconds anyways, while ignoring block and dodge roll. And thats much more light on the sustain side of things, you don't even need rapid strikes, just heavy attack into rending slash. DW doesn't have as good spammables but do you know when I have the most headache as dual wield/2h user?
When I fight stamblades/magsorcs, that just won't forgive you for using something as dumb as dizzying swing. Thats when I realize I need either a rending dw build or an SnB heroic slash build. Nerfing heroic doesn't help your case, cause like it or not as stamDk you are basically forced into heroic slash, as dizzying swing doesn't really work on Dk as well as it does for stamsorc, due to lack of speed and hurricane which auto-breaks cloak for you.
It must be nice to have SnB, which doesn't require the power of vDSA drops to be useful. The damage of rending without them is abysmal, and can easily be healed through.
Anyway, as I've mentioned countless times in previous comments, I'd be happy if they buffed useless skills in dw/2h tree and reduced or removed the snare from Heroic
Except if you want buffs to useless skills , you make a thread for that. And you don't need master axes to make dual wield work, the damage of rending without them isn't abysmal, Its still the BEST ST DOT you can get for your PvP build so stop being ridicilously biased.
I made this thread because I still think Heroic is overperforming. No counter argument exists that would change my mind. It simply does too much for a spammable, and if you bring Nightblades into this... I swear *clenches fist*
Your OP is clearly shows you want to completely pigeonhole SnB into PvE tanking. I don't care much for nightblades but if you nerf heroic slash/pierce armor, the result will be yet another weapon only viable for stamblades.
Edit: And oh, you don't need to be a macrolord to ani cancel a HS, you only need fingers faster than of a sloth.
I don't think there's much else I can say without sounding like a broken record. And yes, I use SnB myself, so I realise you don't need to use macros in order to weave it. After a bit of practice it can become second nature to anyone.0 -
Rake✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I fail to see how OP has explain how S&B, and more specifically how heroic slash is the problem. It is certainly not a great damage skill on it's own.
On its own? No. If someone is just spamming HS they aren't going to get very far. If you weave it with LA, HS and Bash, then you've got yourself some pretty fast paced DPS. While you've finished a full rotation, I'm still winding up my Dizzying Swing that you've already walked through and cancelled.
Let's not forget about those other sweet bonuses:
- 60% snare
- Minor Heroism (1 ulti every 1.5 sec)
- Minor Maim (reduce damage done by 15%)
To top that off, like others have said, in specific heavy armor sets you can get the tooltip on HS very high. In combination with the light attack and bash you're doing some serious damage, and getting the other benefits this skill has to offer.
To anyone who tries to say this ability isn't overperforming, I'd really like you to convince me otherwise.
If S&B is so overpowered, one would expect to see it on all stamina users in PvE as well.
Reality check - there is only one role in PvE that use S&B - a freaking tank.
By the way, when you compare damage of stamina related weapons in PvP:
2h has a DoT that deals bleed damage, gap closer that apply snare, HoT that remove snares, good damage channeled spammable that also stuns, AoE execute and ultimate that shows middle finger to any resistance.
DW has spammable that also induces bleed, cast-and-forget skill that reduces AoE damage taken, ranged snare that deals solid damage as well and dreaded BiS AoE execute for stam users.
Bow has ranged stun, BiS ranged DoT, snipe, cone root and balista as high impact single target ultimate that let its user still go full offense with other skills.
So please stop writing crap about how "OP" is S&B in PvP.5 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Certainly not salty. I just believe that heroic slash does too much, which it does. No other DD ability offers that, and especially for an instant cast. 15% damage mitigation is nothing to laugh about, nor is a 60% snare (total B.S btw) and increased ult gen, and we're talking about an ability that is used as a spammable, so 100% uptime.Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Heroic Slash is overtuned, and there's no reason to run the other morph (deep slash)
Move minor maim to deep slash and keep minor heroism on heroic slash. Reduce or remove the snare completely. Potentially lower tooltip of the skill a bit.
Uhm... how about a good old NO? Why does everything has to suck in this game again? Do you want stamblade to be the only viable stam class in the game?
Who says I don't want stamblades to be more down to earth? (I do, trust me and at this point I even consider medium armor stamblade in open world as cheese due to how forgiving it is), but afaik, this isn't a thread about stamblades.
But just looking and comparing Deep Slash and Heroic Slash it's quite clear which morph is the more superior one in 99/100 cases.
IF deep slash is bad, then consider buffing that morph. I don't think this is a viable solution to anything nor does it serve any purpose. OP seems salty but dual wield builds are perfectly capable of dealing with SnB.
And sure, Dual wield is strong, if you've got master weapons. The main DD spammable in that tree is rapid strikes, and it's absolutely trash.
FYI with master weapons your rending slash alone will hit like a heroic slash every 2 seconds anyways, while ignoring block and dodge roll. And thats much more light on the sustain side of things, you don't even need rapid strikes, just heavy attack into rending slash. DW doesn't have as good spammables but do you know when I have the most headache as dual wield/2h user?
When I fight stamblades/magsorcs, that just won't forgive you for using something as dumb as dizzying swing. Thats when I realize I need either a rending dw build or an SnB heroic slash build. Nerfing heroic doesn't help your case, cause like it or not as stamDk you are basically forced into heroic slash, as dizzying swing doesn't really work on Dk as well as it does for stamsorc, due to lack of speed and hurricane which auto-breaks cloak for you.
It must be nice to have SnB, which doesn't require the power of vDSA drops to be useful. The damage of rending without them is abysmal, and can easily be healed through.
Anyway, as I've mentioned countless times in previous comments, I'd be happy if they buffed useless skills in dw/2h tree and reduced or removed the snare from Heroic
Except if you want buffs to useless skills , you make a thread for that. And you don't need master axes to make dual wield work, the damage of rending without them isn't abysmal, Its still the BEST ST DOT you can get for your PvP build so stop being ridicilously biased.
I made this thread because I still think Heroic is overperforming. No counter argument exists that would change my mind. It simply does too much for a spammable, and if you bring Nightblades into this... I swear *clenches fist*
Your OP is clearly shows you want to completely pigeonhole SnB into PvE tanking. I don't care much for nightblades but if you nerf heroic slash/pierce armor, the result will be yet another weapon only viable for stamblades.
Edit: And oh, you don't need to be a macrolord to ani cancel a HS, you only need fingers faster than of a sloth.
I don't think there's much else I can say without sounding like a broken record. And yes, I use SnB myself, so I realise you don't need to use macros in order to weave it. After a bit of practice it can become second nature to anyone.
I agree there isn't much to say, other than that 2h was also once a weapon line complained about too much , people called wrecking blow easy to use ,dumb, overloaded. The nerfs to that ability and the overall meta changes completely killed 2h though.
As far as SnB meta goes the dual wield setups are already competitive with SnB ones. Thing is DW doesn't even need a spammable with all the free damage it has, Its the 2h and bow that feels out of place and pointless. Lack of instant cast spammable is a big reason for this.2