Alright, something needs to be done about SnB

Qbiken

Ask yourself this.. if sword and shield was so amazing with heroic, how come you don’t see any stamblades, stamplars running it... how come every stam sorc and stamden aren’t running it either

.

Stamblades got an even better spammable surprise attack (overperforming skill as well)

Most stamsorcs I see these days run SnB either for reverb or heroic.

Stamplars do use it quite often, not sure where you're getting the idea that hteythey don't from.

As a warden you've a spammable (birds) but even on stamden I see several using SnB for Heroic and Reverb.

If you're using Wrecking blow over heroic as a spammable you should really reconsider things....

Toc de Malsvi

Ayastigi wrote: »

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

What could be done about SnB is this. Remove the 5% Weapon damage from "Sword & Board" (not the amount of damage you can block by 20%) and instead replace the 5% weapon damage with a 100% enchantment potency buff.

1. Sword and Board I: (WITH ONE HAND WEAPON AND SHIELD EQUIPPED) Increases your Weapon Enchantment Potency by 50% and the amount of damage you can block by 10%.
2. Sword and Board II: (WITH ONE HAND WEAPON AND SHIELD EQUIPPED) Increases your Weapon Enchantment Potency by 100% and the amount of damage you can block by 20%.

(I speak, of course, about the post-Wrathstone 50% enchantment potency reduction on all one handed weapons.)

You're making my point for me. You have no idea what you are mad about. This thread was directed at heroic slash if we follow what op was saying. Now you're talking about block when I was bringing up resistances which as it stands 1hs still gives you same defense as 2 protective or nord passives. When we bring block into the equation then we have to talk about dk passives, imperial passives, shield play enchantments because blocking using s/b is not equal among the classes or races and it shouldn't be as each race/class has a competitive advantage over others in certain areas. You didn't like what I was saying to op about this being a salt post which it is so you came around and tried to defend him the only thing is he isn't talking about block he's talking about heroic slash lmaooo. Good try next.

Your posts have been each more ridiculous than the last. The poster you just responded to posted for the first time in this thread with a suggestion but you pretend they are "mad" about something. They didn't quote you, they didn't respond to you.

The thread is directed at S&B overperforming with the suggestion for Heroic Slash to be adjusted as a possible solution, and you claim anyone not arguing about Heroic Slash specifically is off base.

No talking about block does not mean we have to bring in class/race passives. S&B reduces the cost of block and increases the mitigation regardless of the class/race passives. Some classes have more or less synergy with this effect but all benefit from block cost reduction and increased mitigation from block.

Toc de Malsvi

Xsorus wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're getting at here...What skill are you comparing it to?

Dizzying Swing? Which has a stun technically and does more damage and applies whatever passive you have depending on the weapon.

Maybe Steel Tornado? Which does more damage since it bloody hits through dodge and is AOE and has a massive radius?

Maybe you wanna compare it to some Class abilities...how about Jabs, which is aoe, cone based and does more damage and procs a nuke and provides crit...

Surprise Attack? Does more damage, can use with a weapon, applies the fracture...

What i'm getting is..you say it does a lot of damage, But pretty much every other spammable out there does more damage...Hell even in the own S&B line itself if you don't have a Fracture Debuff (Stam Sorcs) you're probably better off going Puncture which is slightly less damage and less cost. The only two classes who really get a benefit out of using Heroic Slash is Stam DK and Stam Warden.

And what I'm getting at is, not every spammable DD skill is instant cast and offers the benefits that heroic does. A majority of the time a SnB build will destroy someone spamming dizzying swing because they can literally walk through it. They'll also have a higher ultimate uptime, and reduce their damage taken by 15% - not to mention the extra mitigation they get just from having a shield.
As for steel tornado. Sure spam that all you like while I'm full health, but you'll just deplete your resources and do literally no damage to me, especially with my 100% uptime on minor maim thanks to heroic.

The only spammable thats not instant cast is dizzying swing, and it’s got a bloody stun attached to it and does way more damage then heroic.

Higher ult time also means nothing if you die in a burst attack.

As for steel tornado, you’re not taking into account that it’s not just steel tornado you’re eating, you’re eating two bleeds as well that ignore your armor.

You’re basically one well time dawnbreaker from eating dirt in both cases.

Also did you really link a bunch of stam dk videos and say “look they all use s&b”. Like you picked the one class that absolutely has to run sword and shield because the other setups just don’t work for them.

Ask yourself this.. if sword and shield was so amazing with heroic, how come you don’t see any stamblades, stamplars running it... how come every stam sorc and stamden aren’t running it either.

...I see tons of StamSorcs, and Stamdens running S&B and even a some Stamplars. Stamblades are perhaps the only class that really does not run it often. It's not necessarily Heroic Slash that makes it good, but Heroic Slash is quite good on its own as a spammable and adds quite alot to a kit that is already very strong. I'm not sure the OP is on the right track as far as what could/should be adjusted but there are plenty of players running S&B not only DK's.

armeegrun

Or, and I suggest this as an alternative, because it is what I try to do, and it seems there is so much arguing inhere that I cannot follow anymore. Figure out how to kill the one using this skill before they kill you.

Ayastigi

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

What could be done about SnB is this. Remove the 5% Weapon damage from "Sword & Board" (not the amount of damage you can block by 20%) and instead replace the 5% weapon damage with a 100% enchantment potency buff.

1. Sword and Board I: (WITH ONE HAND WEAPON AND SHIELD EQUIPPED) Increases your Weapon Enchantment Potency by 50% and the amount of damage you can block by 10%.
2. Sword and Board II: (WITH ONE HAND WEAPON AND SHIELD EQUIPPED) Increases your Weapon Enchantment Potency by 100% and the amount of damage you can block by 20%.

(I speak, of course, about the post-Wrathstone 50% enchantment potency reduction on all one handed weapons.)

You're making my point for me. You have no idea what you are mad about. This thread was directed at heroic slash if we follow what op was saying. Now you're talking about block when I was bringing up resistances which as it stands 1hs still gives you same defense as 2 protective or nord passives. When we bring block into the equation then we have to talk about dk passives, imperial passives, shield play enchantments because blocking using s/b is not equal among the classes or races and it shouldn't be as each race/class has a competitive advantage over others in certain areas. You didn't like what I was saying to op about this being a salt post which it is so you came around and tried to defend him the only thing is he isn't talking about block he's talking about heroic slash lmaooo. Good try next.

Your posts have been each more ridiculous than the last. The poster you just responded to posted for the first time in this thread with a suggestion but you pretend they are "mad" about something. They didn't quote you, they didn't respond to you.

The thread is directed at S&B overperforming with the suggestion for Heroic Slash to be adjusted as a possible solution, and you claim anyone not arguing about Heroic Slash specifically is off base.

No talking about block does not mean we have to bring in class/race passives. S&B reduces the cost of block and increases the mitigation regardless of the class/race passives. Some classes have more or less synergy with this effect but all benefit from block cost reduction and increased mitigation from block.

I meant to quote you and quoted the guy above me but my response was directed at you. You're still off base though ...you brought block and s/b defense when the whole thread has been talking about heroic slash and yea you seem upset lol. Of course we have to talk about class/race passives if we are talking about block, dk's have 10% increase in the amount they can block for example so why wouldn't that be brought into a convo about blocking. You still don't know what you're mad about you wrote a whole page about blocking when we were on heroic slash. Like I said though this is a salt post that he used 1vx clips to back up...even a garbage tier player using something as terrible as a bow/bow build can get outnumbered clips if they find the right group of people so those 1vx clips still didn't prove anything about heroic slash being "overtuned'.

BlackMadara

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Again. There is 0 reason to nerf heroic slash. If anything, the way light attacks and bash can be weaved in the same global should be looked at.

There is zero point in complaining about one ability that can just be replaced by any other ability to accomplish the same results.

Also, dual wield and 2H are both strong in pvp, so why can't s/b be strong? Making s/b literally only good for pve tanking would be a horrible design and balance decision.

The Problem isn't that S+B is doing the same or slightly less damage than 2h/dw, its that its doing that damage while also giving the vastly superior defense.

In the history of the game, this same thing happened before, and it got nerfed because being able to high damage while being tanky was considered OP. MagDK was nerfed into the ground, because they had MASSIVE damage while being almost unkillable.... sound like certain builds we see today?

I don't pvp a ton, but I have yet to encounter these crazy tank builds that kill everything using sword and board.

Then you're completely blind.

Now I don't know all of these players. I just looked up stam dk videos and picked some out by random. What do they all have in common? They all use SnB as their primary spammable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv1M6ynHqTQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5lvh4AwQy0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybfs8eOm7oI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVgr-2720Wg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WROr77WZO5A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQNnWOJvfLg

I mean, I could go on for days. Just tonight I saw several of these builds (on dks and stam sorcs) taking on groups of people at a resource. They are quite literally everywhere.

You still doing this clown stuff lol? Spartacus007 and Itsalob are two of the top stam dks on ps4 and xb1 respectively and would do that without 1h/s which they have showcased many times. If you are average at this game it's not hard to get clips killing 3-8ppl when the right conditions are met. During midyear mayhem a person can get a 1v7clip on a bow/bow hybrid build if they run into the right group. My point is that you're mistaking a skill being over-tuned with your lack of skill. From your first posts when you were talking about "snb macro lords" it was apparent this is l2p.

Yes, it can be done without S&B, but you don't gain much by doing so. While you gain significant defensive capabilities from running S&B. So why run a more offensive setup when you can deal damage at relatively similar levels from a defensive setup?

You all are so all over the place you can't even agree what you're mad about. Is it the defensive capabilities equipping a shield offers(which many people do and don't slot one 1h skill), the damage of heroic slash(by itself doesn't provide enough burst only formidable when weaving light attack, heroic, bash, which is a huge stamina drain) or the snare maim and minor heroism (which pve tanks benefit from)? Which component are you all mad about lol? You all don't even have a consensus as to what you're arguing against which shows this is just a salt post.

Or perhaps it just shows that different people have different views and opinions. That game balance might be more complex than X is too strong delete X...... Woah!!!! I know mind blowing.

Not really on topic seeing as op started out saying this skill hit too hard and when that was countered he said the buffs/debuffs were over-tuned and then you came in said you receive significant defensive capabilities from running 1h/s which while you do receive defense it isn't unique to 1h/s as protective jewels or nord passives offer the same defense. So you, just like the other guy say something snarky like " woah!!! mind blowing i know" after realizing that you've been defending a salt post this whole time lol.

Protective jewelry is not comparable to S&B. Please think of a better argument than that.

Block is one of the games primary mitigation mechanics that drastically neuters damage. In the world of PVP where ground placed AOE's are expensive, unreliable to cast, and easily avoided block has few effective counters. A well timed block is far more effective versus a variety of attacks than a well timed dodge.

While block, if taking 4 attacks per second, is more expensive than dodge, it has no stacking cost increase meaning it scales significantly better if built to sustain past the initial cost wall. Dodge scales infinitely per projectile cast within its window, but stacking cost increases make it much more punishing on resources as the number of attacks stagger beyond the initial dodge window. CC's from Dragon Leap, Meteor, DBOS, and a variety of sets are can be blocked but not dodged, high spike damage AOE's like Shalks and Steel Tornado(at <25% health) can be blocked but not dodged. The effects that bypass block are not spike damage effects and must be layered many times over to eat away at someone blocking, the same is not true of the effects that bypass dodge.


Taking this into consideration, nothing improves block as well as S&B not even Ice Staff has comparable passives.

36% cost reduction. (comparable to Ice staff)
20% increase in damage blocked. (comparable to Ice staff)
14% increase in damage blocked to ranged attacks and projectiles. (no comparison)
60% increase to speed while blocking.(no comparison)
And possibly the cheapest and close to if not strongest defensive ultimate.

There is no weapon to boost dodge equivalently to how S&B boosts block. Bow offers a short speed boost, this neither improves the cost nor increases the effect of dodge. Ice staff gets half the passives of S&B for block and no defensive ultimate.

There is a reason people claim NB's and Sorc's are not playing competitively at the top level. A big part of that is because both rely on large single target spike damage from a few sources which both include projectiles. Those spikes are completely neutered by block.

Given that one can get similar if not equal levels of damage output with 1 bar S&B, there is nothing that more greatly increases ones survival in PVP than running S&B on at least one bar. It greatly improves the effect and reduces the cost of block while doing little to diminish the power of the person blocking. This is why so many elite players have defaulted to running it on at least one bar. Obviously not every build works to completely harness the power of block, but there are plenty that do.

Actually, 1 protective (1844 gold) gives more resistances than a shield (1720 gold) without considering the CP star Bulwark (1500).

All dots, not just ground placed AoE, go through block. A well timed dodge is much better than a well timed block. The base cost of blocking is 1760 per attack, up to 7040 stamina per second. With no other investments into block cost reduction other than SnB passives, that goes to 1126 per attack, up to 4504 stamina per second.

Blocking with SnB reduces damage taken by 60%, after resistances and defensive buffs (the passive that increases block mitigation by 20% is multiplicative, therefore it adds 10% more mitigation to the 50% base mitigation of blocking.) So a well timed block that blocks multiple attacks coming in will reduce damage taken by 60%, cost 4504 stamina, and possibly lose a tick of stamina regen.

Dodge rolling mitigates all single target direct damage. Also, as a rule of thumb, AoE direct damage attacks do less damage than single target (with warden's Scorch being the exception, which can still be avoided by dodging preemptively.) The base cost of dodge rolling is 4040 stamina, reduced to 3232 stamina in 5 medium armor with no further investment. I believe that the invulnerability of dodging last for about 1 second. So you have the potential to mitigate all damage for 4040/3232 stamina, minus any AoE. You also keep you regen ticking. A well timed dodge is much better than a well times block in a majority of situations.

The 14% increased mitigation from ranged attacks actually comes out to 5.6% more mitigation due to the multiplicative nature of block mitigation mentioned above. In exchange for this extra ranged mitigation and blocking walking speed, Ice staff gets a taunt and shield with a heavy (minor usefulness in PvE) and a 100% increased chance to proc burning, a rather powerful dot, concussed, extra damage instance and minor vulnerability (8% more damage taken, and chilled, extra damage instance and minor maim (8% reduced damage output). This is a fair trade off, and why I run Ice staff and not SnB on my back bar as a magDK (burning ticks add up).

There may not be a weapon equivalent, but there is for armor. Medium armor helps dodge more than heavy armor helps block.

For the damage comparison, I am going to use a stamNB as an example, since they have access to a single target stamina spammable. Using noCP, dual wield for Surprise Attack (SA) and SnB for Heroic Slash (HS). Wearing Hunding's rage and Spriggans with infused WD jewels. Nirn swords with both set ups and a sharpened sword off hand for DW.

SA (DW) - 4654 WD 26641 Stamina
- Light attack damage 3468
- SA damage 8571 Cost 2066
- Bash damage 2328 Cost 1889
Damage weave 12039 Cost 2066 w/ bash 14367 Cost 3955
Base damage vs target with 20k armor: normal weave 4454 w/bash 5316

HS (SnB) - 4096 WD 27509 Stamina
- Light attack damage 3171
- HS damage 7112 Cost 2376
- Bash damage 4096 Cost 1113
Damage weave 10283 Cost 2376 w/ bash 14379 Cost 3489
Base damage vs target with 20k armor: normal weave 3599 w/bash 5033

So a normal weave with DW SA deals almost 900 more damage and bash deals almost 300 more damage.
Normal weave with DW SA costs 13% less stamina and bash costs 12% more stamina.

The conclusion is that SnB does less damage in both cases. Substantially less for more cost without bashing, and slightly less for less cost with bashing. This changes when using axes or maces, depending on the target, but will most likely still hold true. It is interesting to see some of the claims of SnB doing comparable amount of damage to other weapons and abilities be substantiated, but you must also consider what one gets from each skill line. Dual wield gets more pressure, damage, and an execute, 2H gets more burst, damage, and an execute, SnB gets more defense, CC, and utility.

After this analysis, I am fine with that line of balance.

Alucardo

BlackMadara wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Again. There is 0 reason to nerf heroic slash. If anything, the way light attacks and bash can be weaved in the same global should be looked at.

There is zero point in complaining about one ability that can just be replaced by any other ability to accomplish the same results.

Also, dual wield and 2H are both strong in pvp, so why can't s/b be strong? Making s/b literally only good for pve tanking would be a horrible design and balance decision.

The Problem isn't that S+B is doing the same or slightly less damage than 2h/dw, its that its doing that damage while also giving the vastly superior defense.

In the history of the game, this same thing happened before, and it got nerfed because being able to high damage while being tanky was considered OP. MagDK was nerfed into the ground, because they had MASSIVE damage while being almost unkillable.... sound like certain builds we see today?

I don't pvp a ton, but I have yet to encounter these crazy tank builds that kill everything using sword and board.

Then you're completely blind.

Now I don't know all of these players. I just looked up stam dk videos and picked some out by random. What do they all have in common? They all use SnB as their primary spammable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv1M6ynHqTQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5lvh4AwQy0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybfs8eOm7oI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVgr-2720Wg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WROr77WZO5A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQNnWOJvfLg

I mean, I could go on for days. Just tonight I saw several of these builds (on dks and stam sorcs) taking on groups of people at a resource. They are quite literally everywhere.

You still doing this clown stuff lol? Spartacus007 and Itsalob are two of the top stam dks on ps4 and xb1 respectively and would do that without 1h/s which they have showcased many times. If you are average at this game it's not hard to get clips killing 3-8ppl when the right conditions are met. During midyear mayhem a person can get a 1v7clip on a bow/bow hybrid build if they run into the right group. My point is that you're mistaking a skill being over-tuned with your lack of skill. From your first posts when you were talking about "snb macro lords" it was apparent this is l2p.

Yes, it can be done without S&B, but you don't gain much by doing so. While you gain significant defensive capabilities from running S&B. So why run a more offensive setup when you can deal damage at relatively similar levels from a defensive setup?

You all are so all over the place you can't even agree what you're mad about. Is it the defensive capabilities equipping a shield offers(which many people do and don't slot one 1h skill), the damage of heroic slash(by itself doesn't provide enough burst only formidable when weaving light attack, heroic, bash, which is a huge stamina drain) or the snare maim and minor heroism (which pve tanks benefit from)? Which component are you all mad about lol? You all don't even have a consensus as to what you're arguing against which shows this is just a salt post.

Or perhaps it just shows that different people have different views and opinions. That game balance might be more complex than X is too strong delete X...... Woah!!!! I know mind blowing.

Not really on topic seeing as op started out saying this skill hit too hard and when that was countered he said the buffs/debuffs were over-tuned and then you came in said you receive significant defensive capabilities from running 1h/s which while you do receive defense it isn't unique to 1h/s as protective jewels or nord passives offer the same defense. So you, just like the other guy say something snarky like " woah!!! mind blowing i know" after realizing that you've been defending a salt post this whole time lol.

Protective jewelry is not comparable to S&B. Please think of a better argument than that.

Block is one of the games primary mitigation mechanics that drastically neuters damage. In the world of PVP where ground placed AOE's are expensive, unreliable to cast, and easily avoided block has few effective counters. A well timed block is far more effective versus a variety of attacks than a well timed dodge.

While block, if taking 4 attacks per second, is more expensive than dodge, it has no stacking cost increase meaning it scales significantly better if built to sustain past the initial cost wall. Dodge scales infinitely per projectile cast within its window, but stacking cost increases make it much more punishing on resources as the number of attacks stagger beyond the initial dodge window. CC's from Dragon Leap, Meteor, DBOS, and a variety of sets are can be blocked but not dodged, high spike damage AOE's like Shalks and Steel Tornado(at <25% health) can be blocked but not dodged. The effects that bypass block are not spike damage effects and must be layered many times over to eat away at someone blocking, the same is not true of the effects that bypass dodge.


Taking this into consideration, nothing improves block as well as S&B not even Ice Staff has comparable passives.

36% cost reduction. (comparable to Ice staff)
20% increase in damage blocked. (comparable to Ice staff)
14% increase in damage blocked to ranged attacks and projectiles. (no comparison)
60% increase to speed while blocking.(no comparison)
And possibly the cheapest and close to if not strongest defensive ultimate.

There is no weapon to boost dodge equivalently to how S&B boosts block. Bow offers a short speed boost, this neither improves the cost nor increases the effect of dodge. Ice staff gets half the passives of S&B for block and no defensive ultimate.

There is a reason people claim NB's and Sorc's are not playing competitively at the top level. A big part of that is because both rely on large single target spike damage from a few sources which both include projectiles. Those spikes are completely neutered by block.

Given that one can get similar if not equal levels of damage output with 1 bar S&B, there is nothing that more greatly increases ones survival in PVP than running S&B on at least one bar. It greatly improves the effect and reduces the cost of block while doing little to diminish the power of the person blocking. This is why so many elite players have defaulted to running it on at least one bar. Obviously not every build works to completely harness the power of block, but there are plenty that do.

Actually, 1 protective (1844 gold) gives more resistances than a shield (1720 gold) without considering the CP star Bulwark (1500).

All dots, not just ground placed AoE, go through block. A well timed dodge is much better than a well timed block. The base cost of blocking is 1760 per attack, up to 7040 stamina per second. With no other investments into block cost reduction other than SnB passives, that goes to 1126 per attack, up to 4504 stamina per second.

Blocking with SnB reduces damage taken by 60%, after resistances and defensive buffs (the passive that increases block mitigation by 20% is multiplicative, therefore it adds 10% more mitigation to the 50% base mitigation of blocking.) So a well timed block that blocks multiple attacks coming in will reduce damage taken by 60%, cost 4504 stamina, and possibly lose a tick of stamina regen.

Dodge rolling mitigates all single target direct damage. Also, as a rule of thumb, AoE direct damage attacks do less damage than single target (with warden's Scorch being the exception, which can still be avoided by dodging preemptively.) The base cost of dodge rolling is 4040 stamina, reduced to 3232 stamina in 5 medium armor with no further investment. I believe that the invulnerability of dodging last for about 1 second. So you have the potential to mitigate all damage for 4040/3232 stamina, minus any AoE. You also keep you regen ticking. A well timed dodge is much better than a well times block in a majority of situations.

The 14% increased mitigation from ranged attacks actually comes out to 5.6% more mitigation due to the multiplicative nature of block mitigation mentioned above. In exchange for this extra ranged mitigation and blocking walking speed, Ice staff gets a taunt and shield with a heavy (minor usefulness in PvE) and a 100% increased chance to proc burning, a rather powerful dot, concussed, extra damage instance and minor vulnerability (8% more damage taken, and chilled, extra damage instance and minor maim (8% reduced damage output). This is a fair trade off, and why I run Ice staff and not SnB on my back bar as a magDK (burning ticks add up).

There may not be a weapon equivalent, but there is for armor. Medium armor helps dodge more than heavy armor helps block.

For the damage comparison, I am going to use a stamNB as an example, since they have access to a single target stamina spammable. Using noCP, dual wield for Surprise Attack (SA) and SnB for Heroic Slash (HS). Wearing Hunding's rage and Spriggans with infused WD jewels. Nirn swords with both set ups and a sharpened sword off hand for DW.

SA (DW) - 4654 WD 26641 Stamina
- Light attack damage 3468
- SA damage 8571 Cost 2066
- Bash damage 2328 Cost 1889
Damage weave 12039 Cost 2066 w/ bash 14367 Cost 3955
Base damage vs target with 20k armor: normal weave 4454 w/bash 5316

HS (SnB) - 4096 WD 27509 Stamina
- Light attack damage 3171
- HS damage 7112 Cost 2376
- Bash damage 4096 Cost 1113
Damage weave 10283 Cost 2376 w/ bash 14379 Cost 3489
Base damage vs target with 20k armor: normal weave 3599 w/bash 5033

So a normal weave with DW SA deals almost 900 more damage and bash deals almost 300 more damage.
Normal weave with DW SA costs 13% less stamina and bash costs 12% more stamina.

The conclusion is that SnB does less damage in both cases. Substantially less for more cost without bashing, and slightly less for less cost with bashing. This changes when using axes or maces, depending on the target, but will most likely still hold true. It is interesting to see some of the claims of SnB doing comparable amount of damage to other weapons and abilities be substantiated, but you must also consider what one gets from each skill line. Dual wield gets more pressure, damage, and an execute, 2H gets more burst, damage, and an execute, SnB gets more defense, CC, and utility.

After this analysis, I am fine with that line of balance.

I do appreciate you taking the time to detail all of this. However, I am not in anyway disputing that other skills do more damage. SnB is so popular as an offensive play style because of the huge utility it provides along with its ease of use. Attempting to weave Dizzying, for example, will in most cases get you killed. It leaves you open, is horrible to use in lag, and can easily be walked through.
My whole argument is, there is really no reason for it to do as much damage as it does with everything that it gives you. I've played stamina builds for a long, long time, and I can honestly say I was more effective using SnB in terms of sustained damage and defense.
I tried DW for a while, but without master weapons, relying on rending slashes isn't going to get you very far, and rapid strikes is absolutely garbage in PvP. As for the 2h tree, Uppercut obviously packs a punch (20k tooltip on my build), but its tradeoff is it's almost impossible to land.
SnB however, heroic provides great ult gen for keeping your ultimates up, allows you to take 15% less damage, slows your opponent drastically, and then there's reverb for that nasty stun and defile. It's no wonder people use it, and I can't blame them for trying to defend it.
If ZOS ever does decide to tweak this ability, I truly hope they look into fixing up skills like rapid strikes and uppercut (preferable the wrecking blow morph) to make them more viable.
As I've stated, I currently use SnB for my offensive choice on stam builds, except stamplar, so I'd be taking a hit if it ever got nerfed, but I still believe it's overtuned. It hasn't always been a problem, but there's so many people running it now that I'm afraid something needs to be done.
Anyway, I've said all I have to say on the matter. There's nothing else I can contribute without sounding like a broken record, but I hope the discussion stays on topic, calm and free of insults.
Thanks again for the informative comment.

Toc de Malsvi

BlackMadara wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Again. There is 0 reason to nerf heroic slash. If anything, the way light attacks and bash can be weaved in the same global should be looked at.

There is zero point in complaining about one ability that can just be replaced by any other ability to accomplish the same results.

Also, dual wield and 2H are both strong in pvp, so why can't s/b be strong? Making s/b literally only good for pve tanking would be a horrible design and balance decision.

The Problem isn't that S+B is doing the same or slightly less damage than 2h/dw, its that its doing that damage while also giving the vastly superior defense.

In the history of the game, this same thing happened before, and it got nerfed because being able to high damage while being tanky was considered OP. MagDK was nerfed into the ground, because they had MASSIVE damage while being almost unkillable.... sound like certain builds we see today?

I don't pvp a ton, but I have yet to encounter these crazy tank builds that kill everything using sword and board.

Then you're completely blind.

Now I don't know all of these players. I just looked up stam dk videos and picked some out by random. What do they all have in common? They all use SnB as their primary spammable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv1M6ynHqTQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5lvh4AwQy0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybfs8eOm7oI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVgr-2720Wg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WROr77WZO5A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQNnWOJvfLg

I mean, I could go on for days. Just tonight I saw several of these builds (on dks and stam sorcs) taking on groups of people at a resource. They are quite literally everywhere.

You still doing this clown stuff lol? Spartacus007 and Itsalob are two of the top stam dks on ps4 and xb1 respectively and would do that without 1h/s which they have showcased many times. If you are average at this game it's not hard to get clips killing 3-8ppl when the right conditions are met. During midyear mayhem a person can get a 1v7clip on a bow/bow hybrid build if they run into the right group. My point is that you're mistaking a skill being over-tuned with your lack of skill. From your first posts when you were talking about "snb macro lords" it was apparent this is l2p.

Yes, it can be done without S&B, but you don't gain much by doing so. While you gain significant defensive capabilities from running S&B. So why run a more offensive setup when you can deal damage at relatively similar levels from a defensive setup?

You all are so all over the place you can't even agree what you're mad about. Is it the defensive capabilities equipping a shield offers(which many people do and don't slot one 1h skill), the damage of heroic slash(by itself doesn't provide enough burst only formidable when weaving light attack, heroic, bash, which is a huge stamina drain) or the snare maim and minor heroism (which pve tanks benefit from)? Which component are you all mad about lol? You all don't even have a consensus as to what you're arguing against which shows this is just a salt post.

Or perhaps it just shows that different people have different views and opinions. That game balance might be more complex than X is too strong delete X...... Woah!!!! I know mind blowing.

Not really on topic seeing as op started out saying this skill hit too hard and when that was countered he said the buffs/debuffs were over-tuned and then you came in said you receive significant defensive capabilities from running 1h/s which while you do receive defense it isn't unique to 1h/s as protective jewels or nord passives offer the same defense. So you, just like the other guy say something snarky like " woah!!! mind blowing i know" after realizing that you've been defending a salt post this whole time lol.

Protective jewelry is not comparable to S&B. Please think of a better argument than that.

Block is one of the games primary mitigation mechanics that drastically neuters damage. In the world of PVP where ground placed AOE's are expensive, unreliable to cast, and easily avoided block has few effective counters. A well timed block is far more effective versus a variety of attacks than a well timed dodge.

While block, if taking 4 attacks per second, is more expensive than dodge, it has no stacking cost increase meaning it scales significantly better if built to sustain past the initial cost wall. Dodge scales infinitely per projectile cast within its window, but stacking cost increases make it much more punishing on resources as the number of attacks stagger beyond the initial dodge window. CC's from Dragon Leap, Meteor, DBOS, and a variety of sets are can be blocked but not dodged, high spike damage AOE's like Shalks and Steel Tornado(at <25% health) can be blocked but not dodged. The effects that bypass block are not spike damage effects and must be layered many times over to eat away at someone blocking, the same is not true of the effects that bypass dodge.


Taking this into consideration, nothing improves block as well as S&B not even Ice Staff has comparable passives.

36% cost reduction. (comparable to Ice staff)
20% increase in damage blocked. (comparable to Ice staff)
14% increase in damage blocked to ranged attacks and projectiles. (no comparison)
60% increase to speed while blocking.(no comparison)
And possibly the cheapest and close to if not strongest defensive ultimate.

There is no weapon to boost dodge equivalently to how S&B boosts block. Bow offers a short speed boost, this neither improves the cost nor increases the effect of dodge. Ice staff gets half the passives of S&B for block and no defensive ultimate.

There is a reason people claim NB's and Sorc's are not playing competitively at the top level. A big part of that is because both rely on large single target spike damage from a few sources which both include projectiles. Those spikes are completely neutered by block.

Given that one can get similar if not equal levels of damage output with 1 bar S&B, there is nothing that more greatly increases ones survival in PVP than running S&B on at least one bar. It greatly improves the effect and reduces the cost of block while doing little to diminish the power of the person blocking. This is why so many elite players have defaulted to running it on at least one bar. Obviously not every build works to completely harness the power of block, but there are plenty that do.

Actually, 1 protective (1844 gold) gives more resistances than a shield (1720 gold) without considering the CP star Bulwark (1500).

All dots, not just ground placed AoE, go through block. A well timed dodge is much better than a well timed block. The base cost of blocking is 1760 per attack, up to 7040 stamina per second. With no other investments into block cost reduction other than SnB passives, that goes to 1126 per attack, up to 4504 stamina per second.

Blocking with SnB reduces damage taken by 60%, after resistances and defensive buffs (the passive that increases block mitigation by 20% is multiplicative, therefore it adds 10% more mitigation to the 50% base mitigation of blocking.) So a well timed block that blocks multiple attacks coming in will reduce damage taken by 60%, cost 4504 stamina, and possibly lose a tick of stamina regen.

Dodge rolling mitigates all single target direct damage. Also, as a rule of thumb, AoE direct damage attacks do less damage than single target (with warden's Scorch being the exception, which can still be avoided by dodging preemptively.) The base cost of dodge rolling is 4040 stamina, reduced to 3232 stamina in 5 medium armor with no further investment. I believe that the invulnerability of dodging last for about 1 second. So you have the potential to mitigate all damage for 4040/3232 stamina, minus any AoE. You also keep you regen ticking. A well timed dodge is much better than a well times block in a majority of situations.

The 14% increased mitigation from ranged attacks actually comes out to 5.6% more mitigation due to the multiplicative nature of block mitigation mentioned above. In exchange for this extra ranged mitigation and blocking walking speed, Ice staff gets a taunt and shield with a heavy (minor usefulness in PvE) and a 100% increased chance to proc burning, a rather powerful dot, concussed, extra damage instance and minor vulnerability (8% more damage taken, and chilled, extra damage instance and minor maim (8% reduced damage output). This is a fair trade off, and why I run Ice staff and not SnB on my back bar as a magDK (burning ticks add up).

There may not be a weapon equivalent, but there is for armor. Medium armor helps dodge more than heavy armor helps block.

For the damage comparison, I am going to use a stamNB as an example, since they have access to a single target stamina spammable. Using noCP, dual wield for Surprise Attack (SA) and SnB for Heroic Slash (HS). Wearing Hunding's rage and Spriggans with infused WD jewels. Nirn swords with both set ups and a sharpened sword off hand for DW.

SA (DW) - 4654 WD 26641 Stamina
- Light attack damage 3468
- SA damage 8571 Cost 2066
- Bash damage 2328 Cost 1889
Damage weave 12039 Cost 2066 w/ bash 14367 Cost 3955
Base damage vs target with 20k armor: normal weave 4454 w/bash 5316

HS (SnB) - 4096 WD 27509 Stamina
- Light attack damage 3171
- HS damage 7112 Cost 2376
- Bash damage 4096 Cost 1113
Damage weave 10283 Cost 2376 w/ bash 14379 Cost 3489
Base damage vs target with 20k armor: normal weave 3599 w/bash 5033

So a normal weave with DW SA deals almost 900 more damage and bash deals almost 300 more damage.
Normal weave with DW SA costs 13% less stamina and bash costs 12% more stamina.

The conclusion is that SnB does less damage in both cases. Substantially less for more cost without bashing, and slightly less for less cost with bashing. This changes when using axes or maces, depending on the target, but will most likely still hold true. It is interesting to see some of the claims of SnB doing comparable amount of damage to other weapons and abilities be substantiated, but you must also consider what one gets from each skill line. Dual wield gets more pressure, damage, and an execute, 2H gets more burst, damage, and an execute, SnB gets more defense, CC, and utility.

After this analysis, I am fine with that line of balance.

You misinterpreted one of my statements:

"A well timed block is far more effective versus a variety of attacks than a well timed dodge."

This is referring to the fact that block is applied to more sources than dodge, specifically to high damage sources like the ultimates I mentioned as well Shalks and Steel Tornado.


Single target dot's not being blockable is irrelevant as they also are not dodgeable. You get no greater mitigation from them. AOE dot's are only relevant in their relation to Medium dodge builds better access to Major Evasion as they are not dodgeable either.

Your analysis on Medium vs Heavy is off as well. Medium gives 4% dodge roll cost per piece yes, Heavy gives 214 stam+mag back per piece every 8 sec if you take any damage. At 5 pieces medium you reduce the cost of dodge from 4040 to 3232 saving yourself 808 stam. At 5 pieces heavy you get 1080 stam+mag back every 8 sec if you take 1 hit during that 8 sec, or the equivalent of 540 stam+mag recovery.

Lets say you run SnB with 5 heavy, you block for 1 seconds while taking the maximum # of hits in that second. Your stam cost is 4504 but you returned 1080 stam and 1080 mag, meaning your effective stam cost was 3420 and you gained magicka. Lets now say you dodged in 5 medium that one second, your stam cost was 3232 and you returned no mag.

Lets consider further though, lets say you mitigated the DBOS, Shalks, Ferocious Leap, Meteor, or even Snipe, but now you need to block again cause they are still attacking you after 1 sec and snipes are still raining down.

So the heavy SnB blocks again, cost is 4504 but no more stam return. The medium armor with no SnB has the choice to block for 7040 stam or dodge a second time within 4 seconds for 4848. Now the non-SnB build has to take a loss on stam to the SnB build. But provided all the enemies are casting dodgeable abilities, and provided the game registers those abilities within the dodge window then dodge is still mitigating more.

But lets just pretend that combat didn't end after 2 seconds, I know with medium non-SnB that is hard to imagine. So another combatant casts a meteor or DBOS or something undodgeable because they are just darn angry that their attacks have been dodged. Now the SnB heavy blocks again for 4504, while the medium non-SnB now has to block or die for 7040, if we assume it is still dodgeable abilities being cast then the medium can dodge for 7272. While the SnB after blocking for 2 seconds could decide "oh only dodgeables, I could just dodge this one for 4040".

So for 3 seconds of pressure the cost:

SnB+Heavy: -(4504x3)+1080 stam+1080 mag
-12432 stam + 1080 mag


no SnB+Med(2k stam recovery):

no blocks:-3232-4848-7272+2k stam
-13352 stam

1block 2 dodges:-3232-7040-4848+2k stam
-13120


Another second of needing to block or dodge and Medium gets another 2k stam, but incur's ever greater increasing stam cost. At 5 seconds medium resets the dodge cost, but block is inexorably higher. If you hold block then you keep blocking unless your are CC'd, if you spam dodge, you can still get hit between dodges by skills that should be dodgeable.

The most forgiving scenario for dodge is if you only need to dodge twice in 8 seconds and you never need to block, in otherwords fighting potatoes. In that scenario dodge 5med+non-SnB costed 6464 and block on SnB+ heavy costed 7928 while returning 1080 mag. In every other scenario SnB+Heavy is better than dodge.

SnB is massively better for any situation where you will have short periods of hard pressure.... Like PVP in general.

BlackMadara

@Alucardo SnB being a viable option for PvP shouldn't mean it should get nerfed. Any spec with a spammable can see more damage and healing than using SnB due to having more WD. I agree that 2H could use some love in terms of making wrecking blow more viable. Imo all weapon lines have there own areas that they shine in. It just so happens that effective blocking, increased resistances, and increased damage with ani canceling are very efficient for PvP. I still do not think that SnB outshines DW, 2H, or even bow. You are entitled to your opinion and you make fair points.

@Toc de Malsvi Constitution returns 108 stam and mag per piece every 4 seconds, coming out to 540/4s or 270 regen.

So your analysis come out to the SnB blocker using 12972 stamina in that 3 seconds and gaining 540 magicka.

The roller uses more stamina and has the potential to avoid more damage. The blocker uses slightly less stamina, gains mag, and mitigates less damage but has more guaranteed mitigation. Rather balanced from the looks of it.

SnB is only truly better if there is heavy AoE damage and a lack of ability to reposition. The fact that dodge rolling physically moves your character makes it better for repositioning. In this case, the break down would be SnB blocking better for open field combat, and med armor dodging better for smaller skirmishes. Either way, it really comes down to the specific scenario and criteria.

For the record, i enjoy both of your comments throughout the thread.

Toc de Malsvi

BlackMadara wrote: »

@Alucardo SnB being a viable option for PvP shouldn't mean it should get nerfed. Any spec with a spammable can see more damage and healing than using SnB due to having more WD. I agree that 2H could use some love in terms of making wrecking blow more viable. Imo all weapon lines have there own areas that they shine in. It just so happens that effective blocking, increased resistances, and increased damage with ani canceling are very efficient for PvP. I still do not think that SnB outshines DW, 2H, or even bow. You are entitled to your opinion and you make fair points.

@Toc de Malsvi Constitution returns 108 stam and mag per piece every 4 seconds, coming out to 540/4s or 270 regen.

So your analysis come out to the SnB blocker using 12972 stamina in that 3 seconds and gaining 540 magicka.

The roller uses more stamina and has the potential to avoid more damage. The blocker uses slightly less stamina, gains mag, and mitigates less damage but has more guaranteed mitigation. Rather balanced from the looks of it.

SnB is only truly better if there is heavy AoE damage and a lack of ability to reposition. The fact that dodge rolling physically moves your character makes it better for repositioning. In this case, the break down would be SnB blocking better for open field combat, and med armor dodging better for smaller skirmishes. Either way, it really comes down to the specific scenario and criteria.

For the record, i enjoy both of your comments throughout the thread.

You are correct as the passive was changed, it gives the same amount over 8 seconds now as it did before they just moved it to a 4 sec CD with the nerf to the return.

And no it's not quite balanced as while heavy does offer support for blocking, which was an aside based on your previous comment, you don't need heavy to gain the primary benefits from SnB.

With 5 med and SnB you get dodge roll at 3232, and block at 4504. With 5 med and any other weapon you get dodge roll at 3232 and block at 7040. You get slightly less damage overall with SnB but you drastically improve your ability to use block and your resource drain.

Raammzzaa

Interesting, I can’t remember when the last time was I even got hit by a HS, let alone had a HS on my death recap... maybe in a duel? This just doesn’t seem like a big issue to me. I’m kind of surprised that anyone is getting killed by HS and runnning to the forum crying for nerfs. What kind of resistances do you have on your build?

Alucardo

Raammzzaa wrote: »

Interesting, I can’t remember when the last time was I even got hit by a HS, let alone had a HS on my death recap... maybe in a duel? This just doesn’t seem like a big issue to me. I’m kind of surprised that anyone is getting killed by HS and runnning to the forum crying for nerfs. What kind of resistances do you have on your build?

I didn't complain I was getting killed by these builds, just that they are becoming prevalent. Mostly playing magblade these days, so I'm in light armor, but I wear blood spawn for extra resistance procs

anatole1234

Lol, the most prominents builds are bleed builds, bleeds goes through everything including block. SnB build are underperforming against dot builds cause there's no counter to it except purges. The most cancerous players actually run both. Bleeds for unmitigated/unblockable/undodgeable damage (Might as well be oblivion damage) and the Defile so your only counter left is now purge cause healing won't do it

Savos_Saren

Again- i suggest dropping the 5% weapon damage (from sword and board passive) down to 2.5% weapon and 2.5% spell damage.

But saying that players shouldn’t be able to do high damage with SnB (defense due to higher resistances from the physical shield) is like saying players shouldn’t be able to do high damage with shields (defense with high magical shielding).