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Alright, something needs to be done about SnB
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Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Totally agree, let’s nerf OH&S and escalate the nerf arms race. Then 2H, then DW, then everything else...until ultimately we are all playing with wooden swords running around barely giving each other splinters. Sounds like fun.3 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I can almost guarantee that it's Fury+7 you should be mad at, not SnB
Yea, but don’t touch 7th. Trust me, the last thing you want in pvp is an advantage to ranged so pvp evolves into a no mans land between groups. Melee sort of needs it with the aoe spam. I’m okay with sets being powerful if they require you to take damage.
Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten6 -
Roboplus✭✭✭How about if all SnB abilities had their damage reduced, but instead of the Power Slam morph having increased damage, it significantly boosted the damage of all SnB abilities but did so at the cost of all SnB defensive passives (and a -1700~ P/M resist debuff)? To the point where once active, for a few seconds your SnB abilities hit like an end-game stam DPS, but you are effectively as vulnerable, or even more so than you would be if you weren't using a shield at all.
That would help Tanks in overworld (instead of hurt them), ensure PvP have to sacrifice survival (and bar space) in order to deal damage, and would give PvE DPS a new weapon to use.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS need to nerf / rebalance root cause and not consequence. This is such a stupidity to nerf skills and abilities due to exploits on item sets...0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Totally agree, let’s nerf OH&S and escalate the nerf arms race. Then 2H, then DW, then everything else...until ultimately we are all playing with wooden swords running around barely giving each other splinters. Sounds like fun.
Except, 2H is already nerfed beyond recognition. I call it the momentum stick because thats the one purpose it serves. It lets you use momentum.3 -
Sleep724✭✭✭✭✭If you’re getting beat by S&B alone it’s definitely l2p.
If you’re up against a good player, S&B is very rarely enough to take them down. You also need dots and an ultimate burst with an execute to get the job done. I could see the snare being reduced however.0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Observing people's opinions about state of things in Cyrodiil is tremendously amusing.
Some say half of Cyrodiil is cloaking, snipe-spamming nightblades. Some say half of Cyrodiil is overpowered S&B builds. Some say half of Cyrodiil is bleed DW builds (and we had to nerf DW because of that). Some say half of Cyrodiil are ice wardens, pet sorcs, mag DKs with their vicious flame lash (also half of Cyrodiil), underline as required, and it's probably not even a complete list. Sounds like Cyrodiil is some fancy mathematical abstraction that has more than two halves.
Or maybe I should listen to those who say that Cyrodiil is empty because of lag. Sounds legit. ^^8 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »Observing people's opinions about state of things in Cyrodiil is tremendously amusing.
Some say half of Cyrodiil is cloaking, snipe-spamming nightblades. Some say half of Cyrodiil is overpowered S&B builds. Some say half of Cyrodiil is bleed DW builds (and we had to nerf DW because of that). Some say half of Cyrodiil are ice wardens, pet sorcs, mag DKs with their vicious flame lash (also half of Cyrodiil), underline as required, and it's probably not even a complete list. Sounds like Cyrodiil is some fancy mathematical abstraction that has more than two halves.
Or maybe I should listen to those who say that Cyrodiil is empty because of lag. Sounds legit. ^^
The bolded part is pretty much why I don't play ESO as much anymore. You can adapt to certain play styles and whatnot, but one thing you can't adapt to is slow bar swapping, ults not going off, low fps and skills/pots not registering when you hit the button.0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭1) The very nature of a pvp encounter means that boosting your survival with armor and a shield makes sense. Mages and assassins aren't supposed to be going toe to toe like a brawler. Light and medium armor have their place... And it's easy to reach high resists anyway in any armor type, so I don't understand why people keep complaining about heavy armor. Personally I love medium armor in pvp as the cost reduction to stamina abilities and dodge roll plus 15% weapon damage far outweighs 10% more resists and health and whatever else.
2) If someone is hitting you hard with a sword and shield ability, then they are still built for damage, and they would be hitting you even harder with a dual wield or 2 hander. Sword and shield abilities already deal less damage and the weapon line has no major savagery or brutality or self healing.5 -
El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭El_Borracho wrote: »S&B isn't even the hardest-hitting build. And someone wants to nerf it. Unreal.
I'm guessing this tale of woe began with a loaded up snipe from stealth going awry...
Comments like this is why I donate regularly to BDS; a society that helps children who have brain cell deterioration caused by too much gaming.
We'll find a cure someday. Hang in there buddy.
Neat insult. I'm guessing that's what this was meant to be, right? I mean, it failed to deliver. Bet it sounded real witty when you hit "Post Reply." Felt all proud inside.
You should consider swinging by your local middle school to ask for help on your next clever retort.3 -
IlCanis_LupuslI✭✭✭✭✭I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the number of "DPS Tanks" in PvP is getting out of control. It should not be possible to hit a 10k heroic slash tooltip with above capped resistances, especially considering all the other utility it provides. Quite frankly, HS is overloaded.
My suggestion is simple: Remove, or significantly reduce the damage portion of this skill, as well as puncture. They were made to be utility abilities for tanks, not to outdamage a medium armor build smashing you with dizzying swing.
Tanks do not need to be dealing the amount of damage they do while also having the gift of immortality. I'd go further to also reduce the damage of bash (interrupt, not the SnB skill).
Please note, I'm just asking for the damage part to be taken away. So this should not affect PvE as the utility of these skills are completely left in place. In fact, with the damage part completely nerfed you could make up for it by reducing the cost of the skill by 3-5%
Let's make a deal yes? Alucardo gives stamsorc & Stam dk a instant cast spammable not as clunky as uppercut & crushing weapons and this one will immideatly toss away this Khajiits shield and slot dw yes?
may bright moons shine on your path.
sincerely a stamsorc khajiitEdited by IlCanis_LupuslI on March 14, 2019 6:49PM
Xbox-EU-AD
Khajiit Night blade Healer(BiS for cuteness)-Flawless Conquerer Grand Overlord
Khajiit Stamsorc Werewolf, Flawless Conquerer (1st attempt ww form during the entire dungeon) main
Khajiit(Master Race) Templar Healer, Flawless Conquerer
Khajiit Stam dk, Flawless conquerer, 2nd attempt
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQhCmVHwZioVyTEDberxGtA?view_as=public
Werewolf Veteran player, Since Wrathstone-DLC "Raid-Wolf", 50k dps with fracture, Pvp Healer.3 -
IlCanis_LupuslI✭✭✭✭✭
Lower tool tip then pierce armor & no fracture.
This one really dislikes it not to mention he very foolish exicute making this khajiit look like a ballerina gone wrong.
Xbox-EU-AD
Khajiit Night blade Healer(BiS for cuteness)-Flawless Conquerer Grand Overlord
Khajiit Stamsorc Werewolf, Flawless Conquerer (1st attempt ww form during the entire dungeon) main
Khajiit(Master Race) Templar Healer, Flawless Conquerer
Khajiit Stam dk, Flawless conquerer, 2nd attempt
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQhCmVHwZioVyTEDberxGtA?view_as=public
Werewolf Veteran player, Since Wrathstone-DLC "Raid-Wolf", 50k dps with fracture, Pvp Healer.1 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the number of "DPS Tanks" in PvP is getting out of control. It should not be possible to hit a 10k heroic slash tooltip with above capped resistances, especially considering all the other utility it provides. Quite frankly, HS is overloaded.
My suggestion is simple: Remove, or significantly reduce the damage portion of this skill, as well as puncture. They were made to be utility abilities for tanks, not to outdamage a medium armor build smashing you with dizzying swing.
Tanks do not need to be dealing the amount of damage they do while also having the gift of immortality. I'd go further to also reduce the damage of bash (interrupt, not the SnB skill).
Please note, I'm just asking for the damage part to be taken away. So this should not affect PvE as the utility of these skills are completely left in place. In fact, with the damage part completely nerfed you could make up for it by reducing the cost of the skill by 3-5%
Let's make a deal yes? You give stamsorc & Stam dk a instant cast spammable not as clunky as uppercut & crushing weapons and this one will immideatly toss away this Khajiits shield and slot dw yes?
may bright moons shine on your path.
sincerely a stamsorc khajiit
Personally I'd prefer they'd just rework some of the weapon skills instead of giving every class a spammable, but you're right, uppercut and crushing weapon are clunky and it's no wonder you don't see them very often. I do hope they at least give 2h an instant cast at some point, or do something with rapid strikes so it's not poop.0 -
Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No.
No. More. Nerfs.
Just no.
Enough with these already. When people learn to not ask things nerfed? Because they always then nerf pretty much everything, in this case all weapon types would get nerfs..
..with some Developer comment like: "We wanted you to use more class abilities so we adjusted (nerfed hard) weapon abilities damage numbers significantly."
So, please, do not ask nerfs, they will destroy even the things you like. Learn from the past already people. Please.4 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Moonsorrow wrote: »No.
No. More. Nerfs.
Just no.
Enough with these already. When people learn to not ask things nerfed? Because they always then nerf pretty much everything, in this case all weapon types would get nerfs..
..with some Developer comment like: "We wanted you to use more class abilities so we adjusted (nerfed hard) weapon abilities damage numbers significantly."
So, please, do not ask nerfs, they will destroy even the things you like. Learn from the past already people. Please.
I really should update the OP. The discussion has turned from "nerf SnB" to "buff other weapon skill lines". After talking with some of the more level-headed people, I prefer the latter to the former.
And they've already destroyed things I like on multiple occasions. I'm not a rich guy in-game by any means (can't even afford to respec now), but I spent what I had on golding out my swift jewellery, and then bam, nerf hammer. Took a long hiatus after that to lick my wounds xD
But anyway, yes, I would prefer a buff, or more of a rework to some of the weapon skill lines. Trying to use uppercut in today's lag is unbearable, and rapid strikes is just plain naff. I think if there were more options, I'd be content. Still, I do feel like heroic slash does too much - reducing the snare would take some of the pain out of it0 -
Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Moonsorrow wrote: »No.
No. More. Nerfs.
Just no.
Enough with these already. When people learn to not ask things nerfed? Because they always then nerf pretty much everything, in this case all weapon types would get nerfs..
..with some Developer comment like: "We wanted you to use more class abilities so we adjusted (nerfed hard) weapon abilities damage numbers significantly."
So, please, do not ask nerfs, they will destroy even the things you like. Learn from the past already people. Please.
but I spent what I had on golding out my swift jewellery, and then bam, nerf hammer. Took a long hiatus after that to lick my wounds xD
Yep, people on forums cried Swift to be nerfed, ZOS destroyed ALL sources of speed. I still am sad about speed pot nerfs and classes major expedition nerfs to few seconds. People wanted nerfs. Now we live at the snare meta where everything is slow.
One example that hopefully most remember before asking for more nerfs, since ZOS is not good at making small adjustments to single things, they always destroy all the things that are connected to the "issue" and then some random things as a bonus on top of it.
So, after all the nerf posts again, i already now am scared what nerfs await us at Elsweyr chapter launch.
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Kesstryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You do realize that whatever they nerf for pvp will be nerfed for pvp? If you keep asking for tank skills to get nerfed, there will be no one who will be willing to tank PvE content. There are already few and far between tanks as it is because tanking is such a chore, and now you want to nerf it more just so you don't have to think through and redesign your PvP build? Just no!HEARTHLIGHT - A guild for housing enthusiasts! Contact @Kesstryl in-game to join.1 -
BrokenGameMechanics✭✭✭✭Perhaps. I suppose if people still ran fury+seventh with updated weapon skill lines it would be just as bad. Why ZOS gave heavy armor the highest damaging sets in the game along with the best mitigation, healing and resource return I will never understand.
The more it's discussed the further away from a solution I feel it becomes
This. And it continues to deteriorate in PvP.
We have Tanks now that are literally immortal dancing on Alessia bridge. I mean literally unkillable with less than 7-8 DPS opponents and even then it takes a coordinated effort. It takes 10+ randos.
We have Tanks that out DPS, DPS builds. We have Tanks running around at high speed. From a game design perspective, right now, today, it is the worst it has ever been.
In the beginning I used to read the forums with everyone moaning and think yea, yea, but those guys really know what they are doing. But as one gets more familiar with the game, the formulas, the combat rules and then looks at the series of changes over time you realize it is not the case. How they fail to see the obvious "unintended consequences" can be pound your head on the desk in nature.
I think I got jaded beyond repair when I was reading the Nerfmire(?) release notes. And came across this gem which I paraphrase from the dev notes: "We increased sustain of the Warden from Netch, but it didn't feel right, so we arbitrarily increased the cost of the Swarm skill until it felt about right." WHAT?!?!? Up until then I always felt they had definitive analysis, models, tables, and formulas which associated a skill's damage and effects to the cost etc. There was the end of innocence, turns out they just sort of stick a finger in the wind.
Similar impression when I was following the "racial passives" changes. I got the impression that up to then they had no basis at all to quantify a passive and that the system they decided to use what the passives relative value to a typical 1-4 armor set value.
I mean I always imagined, tons of simulations, math, formulas, charts, statistical analysis, relative costs and weights for CCs, damage, buffs, debuffs, crits, to resource cost ... but essentially there is nada. It's all pure unadulterated ad hoc.
Edited by BrokenGameMechanics on March 17, 2019 2:04AM2 -
Crixus8000✭✭✭✭✭
✭BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »This. And it continues to deteriorate in PvP.
We have Tanks now that are literally immortal dancing on Alessia bridge. I mean literally unkillable with less than 7-8 DPS opponents and even then it takes a coordinated effort. It takes 10+ randos.
We have Tanks that out DPS, DPS builds. We have Tanks running around at high speed. From a game design perspective, right now, today, it is the worst it has ever been.
It seems like a cp issue then imo, because this is not possible at all in no cp. My build is decently tanky, I run 30k resists, troll king and a lot of heals with 8 impen in no cp and can die very fast if I make one small mistake, or if I just get outnumbered and it's very different when I try cp pvp, it's so easy to survive and tank people.
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usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The damage isn't the problem. I can pretty much just endlessly smash someone in the face on my stam DK with the ever-so-often heavy attack being thrown in with 1.1k regen and no other source of incoming resources outside of constitution.
This lends to S&B skills being a) too cheap or b) constitution too strong. I'm going to put my money on the former.0331
06022 -
Crixus8000✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmcjdking wrote: »The damage isn't the problem. I can pretty much just endlessly smash someone in the face on my stam DK with the ever-so-often heavy attack being thrown in with 1.1k regen and no other source of incoming resources outside of constitution.
This lends to S&B skills being a) too cheap or b) constitution too strong. I'm going to put my money on the former.
Ransack is really cheap, but I wouldn't say heroic is, especially when bash canceling. I certainly can't spam it in no cp, but again in cp you get so much sustain and survivability so it really makes things so much easier.
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Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CP shouldn’t matter. The way the game is design all you get from CPs really are the green skill lines. The damage and mitigation lines cancel each other out with how they’re designed.
Makes me wonder how much all these ‘I was hit with a 14k snipe’’ ‘NBs are OP’ ‘tanks are unkillable’ threads are all from the same people - people playing in the CP campaign when they shouldn’t be. If you’re under 800CPs and are playing pvp in the CP campaign you’re at a huge disadvantage.Edited by Iskiab on March 17, 2019 3:59AMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What are those "Tank" and "Medium armor playstyle" you are talking about ?
Playing SnB front-Bar with capped Resists in Medium armor is entirely possible.
Is SnB the most important skill line for a lot of stamina dueling builds thanks to Fracture, Maim and Defile ? Yes probably.
Is SnB the highest damaging front-bar, in a 1v1 scenario, outside of execute range, if you spend the stam to bash each GCD ? Yes, maybe.
Would stamina build diversity increase if we were to nerf SnB damage ? I'm not convinced.
Are you also at or over the resistance cap? Yes probably.
Like someone else here said. SnB with basicly macroweaving snb skills with bashcancel is hugely op and more and more ppl are playing it now. With how much dps u get with it while staying at mitigation cap its quite ubderstandable why..
PC EU
PvP only3 -
Roboplus✭✭✭Like someone else here said. SnB with basicly macroweaving snb skills with bashcancel is hugely op and more and more ppl are playing it now. With how much dps u get with it while staying at mitigation cap its quite ubderstandable why..
Is it Bashing damage then? Why does SnB have increased Bashing damage anyway? It's obviously not for PvE.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I fail to see how OP has explain how S&B, and more specifically how heroic slash is the problem. It is certainly not a great damage skill on it's own.
So without that there is no reason for this changes. As others have explain, there are other sources for tank builds being strong. Need to find the proper causes instead of closing ones eyes and just starting shooting at things and suggesting whatever you hit first is the problem.4 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I fail to see how OP has explain how S&B, and more specifically how heroic slash is the problem. It is certainly not a great damage skill on it's own.
On its own? No. If someone is just spamming HS they aren't going to get very far. If you weave it with LA, HS and Bash, then you've got yourself some pretty fast paced DPS. While you've finished a full rotation, I'm still winding up my Dizzying Swing that you've already walked through and cancelled.
Let's not forget about those other sweet bonuses:
- 60% snare
- Minor Heroism (1 ulti every 1.5 sec)
- Minor Maim (reduce damage done by 15%)
To top that off, like others have said, in specific heavy armor sets you can get the tooltip on HS very high. In combination with the light attack and bash you're doing some serious damage, and getting the other benefits this skill has to offer.
To anyone who tries to say this ability isn't overperforming, I'd really like you to convince me otherwise.
Edited by Alucardo on March 17, 2019 10:15AM4 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have never been hit by SnB skills for over 5K and my CP distribution is crap AND I have light armor + chudan on (only around 18K resistances). With all the stuff on the f orums I read, I must have some serious luck in the game...2 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have never been hit by SnB skills for over 5K and my CP distribution is crap AND I have light armor + chudan on (only around 18K resistances). With all the stuff on the f orums I read, I must have some serious luck in the game...
As I said, on their own they don't do a lot of damage. It's the weaving which makes it powerful, among the buffs and debuffs it provides at the same time.
With one quick nip of HS they have taken away 15% of your damage, snared you for 60% and started generating ultimate at a faster pace. And they are using this skill as their spammable.2 -
Aznox✭✭✭✭✭I fail to see how OP has explain how S&B, and more specifically how heroic slash is the problem. It is certainly not a great damage skill on it's own.
On its own? No. If someone is just spamming HS they aren't going to get very far. If you weave it with LA, HS and Bash, then you've got yourself some pretty fast paced DPS. While you've finished a full rotation, I'm still winding up my Dizzying Swing that you've already walked through and cancelled.
Let's not forget about those other sweet bonuses:
- 60% snare
- Minor Heroism (1 ulti every 1.5 sec)
- Minor Maim (reduce damage done by 15%)
To top that off, like others have said, in specific heavy armor sets you can get the tooltip on HS very high. In combination with the light attack and bash you're doing some serious damage, and getting the other benefits this skill has to offer.
To anyone who tries to say this ability isn't overperforming, I'd really like you to convince me otherwise.
Good luck using HS+bash as your main spammable on a heavy armor build, we are talking about 3500 stamina drain per second.
Not saying this isn't strong, just saying you need to consider all the details when talking about balance.Edited by Aznox on March 17, 2019 10:58AMAznox
PC EU
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