Alright, something needs to be done about SnB

Alucardo

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the number of "DPS Tanks" in PvP is getting out of control. It should not be possible to hit a 10k heroic slash tooltip with above capped resistances, especially considering all the other utility it provides. Quite frankly, HS is overloaded.

My suggestion is simple: Remove, or significantly reduce the damage portion of this skill, as well as puncture. They were made to be utility abilities for tanks, not to outdamage a medium armor build smashing you with dizzying swing.
Tanks do not need to be dealing the amount of damage they do while also having the gift of immortality. I'd go further to also reduce the damage of bash (interrupt, not the SnB skill).

Please note, I'm just asking for the damage part to be taken away. So this should not affect PvE as the utility of these skills are completely left in place. In fact, with the damage part completely nerfed you could make up for it by reducing the cost of the skill by 3-5%

Reverb

With so many heavy armor sets with pure damage bonuses, it’s pretty clear that this is what zeni wants.

Alucardo

Reverb wrote: »

With so many heavy armor sets with pure damage bonuses, it’s pretty clear that this is what zeni wants.

I thought that too, but the more I think about it I'm not so sure HA is the problem. When you see these turtle DPS builds, what do they all have in common? Heroic Slash/Puncture.
I'm starting to think if we remove SnB from their offense, things might get better. It won't be perfect by any means, but it'll be a hell of a lot better than what we have now.

Akagami94

It's that or the 15k dizzing swings, which you prefer?

Alucardo

Akagami94 wrote: »

It's that or the 15k dizzing swings, which you prefer?

At least I can walk through dizzying swings, and have time to react to them. Fighting a macro lord weaving SnB, your health disappears before your very eyes.

Akagami94

Alucardo wrote: »

Akagami94 wrote: »

It's that or the 15k dizzing swings, which you prefer?

At least I can walk through dizzying swings, and have time to react to them. Fighting a macro lord weaving SnB, your health disappears before your very eyes.

Then u better stick with pvE mate :')

Trancestor

Yeah remove S&B playstyle from pvp so spin2win and bleeds will be the only remaining effective one for classes without a spammable.
You calling those players macro lords confirms this is a l2p issue on your side.

Alucardo

Trancestor wrote: »

Yeah remove S&B playstyle from pvp so spin2win and bleeds will be the only remaining effective one for classes without a spammable.
You calling those players macro lords confirms this is a l2p issue on your side.

I don't recall ever dying to someone who relied on nothing but bleeds and spin2win, probably because I'm a stamplar and just purge it anyway.
"l2p" has nothing to do with it. These builds are just plain strong. I used to run it myself, but I personally prefer the medium armor playstyle. Besides, it doesn't change the fact that the abilities I mentioned in the OP were made to be for utility, not DPS.

Mojmir

If they adjuat it,im pretty sure they screw it up somehow for pve.

John_Falstaff

@Alucardo , one of S&B passives gives weapon damage, for instance. If S&B is mainly used for PvE tanking, it doesn't mean that it was designed strictly for utility, you can't read the minds of those designed the skill line. Also, S&B already got 1H enchantments nerfed in half, so it's even weaker now in PvP, but it seems it's never enough for those who really really really want to kill that S&B DK, but upset that it's not an easy kill and tends to bite back.

And yes, the 'macro lords' have instantly killed every droplet of credibility here. After that statement, it's impossible to take anything seriously.

Alucardo

Mojmir wrote: »

If they adjuat it,im pretty sure they screw it up somehow for pve.

All I'm looking for is the damage portion removed or heavily reduced, and the cost of the skills reduced accordingly

Nerftheforums

In your opinion all snb builds use snb, thus HS is the problem.
Yet all snb build use 7th,fury and/or veiled heritance. I know this might be difficult to understand, but isn't the problem maybe relying in the fact that heavy armor sets are the ones providing the most damage for stamina builds? And, just by coincidence, heavy armor snb pairs amazingly well with those sets?


Ps: how experienced are you? The "macro lord" and "dps tank" suggest you entered pvp for the first time this Monday.

Alucardo

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Alucardo , one of S&B passives gives weapon damage, for instance. If S&B is mainly used for PvE tanking, it doesn't mean that it was designed strictly for utility, you can't read the minds of those designed the skill line. Also, S&B already got 1H enchantments nerfed in half, so it's even weaker now in PvP, but it seems it's never enough for those who really really really want to kill that S&B DK, but upset that it's not an easy kill and tends to bite back.

And yes, the 'macro lords' have instantly killed every droplet of credibility here. After that statement, it's impossible to take anything seriously.

Even so, it doesn't change the fact that HS is heavily overloaded. And yes, the whole "Macro Lords" thing was probably a bit below the belt, but if my combat logs didn't look like a robot was attacking me then I may not have said it. Of course this doesn't go for everyone I face, but it does for a majority.

Iskiab

If you nerf the S&B abilities that will just limit which classes will use the line. It is overtuned, but not by much. I think all they need to do is remove the weapon damage bonus from the skill line passive - problem solved. S&B already gives you more stats and mitigation, doesn’t need weapon damage too.

AcadianPaladin

One of my characters is a PvE DK tank. He started in the tutorial as a main tank and has never ever run 'dps' gear. Yes, each mudcrab requires their own half dozen hits. He runs S&B both bars. His 'damage' includes caltrops, puncture, heroic slash, talons, silver leash etc - all common stuff that main tanks run. Not surprisingly, he is very very hard to hurt in PvE and does minimal dps. If he is able to kill a WB is less than half an hour, I'm doing something wrong. I'd be surprised if his dps is over 5K total. He is patient and the only problem he runs into is a foe that regens health faster than his low dps can do damage.

Unless the proposed change would only affect heroic slash and puncture in PvP, it would basically make normal PvE overland questing undoable for this character since he would retire before donning a set of 'dps' gear.

Trancestor

Heroic Slash does provide too much, one morph should give minor heroism + 30% snare (rn its 60%) and the other should give the aoe minor maim, but dont touch the dmg. Other than that S&B is fine, it's the heavy armor sets that make these "dps tanks" possible. Removing the only viable spammable that 3 stam classes have is a dicc move. Dizzying is garbage.

Aznox

What are those "Tank" and "Medium armor playstyle" you are talking about ?

Playing SnB front-Bar with capped Resists in Medium armor is entirely possible.

Is SnB the most important skill line for a lot of stamina dueling builds thanks to Fracture, Maim and Defile ? Yes probably.

Is SnB the highest damaging front-bar, in a 1v1 scenario, outside of execute range, if you spend the stam to bash each GCD ? Yes, maybe.

Would stamina build diversity increase if we were to nerf SnB damage ? I'm not convinced.

Myrkgrav

Where are these tanks dealing this damage lol. I have health for days but overland stuff is a chore, and in PvP I'm all but useless at everything except Chaos Ball as I can outheal the damage it puts out for quite some time.

Alucardo

Aznox wrote: »

What are those "Tank" and "Medium armor playstyle" you are talking about ?

Playing SnB front-Bar with capped Resists in Medium armor is entirely possible.

Is SnB the most important skill line for a lot of stamina dueling builds thanks to Fracture, Maim and Defile ? Yes probably.

Is SnB the highest damaging front-bar, in a 1v1 scenario, outside of execute range, if you spend the stam to bash each GCD ? Yes, maybe.

Would stamina build diversity increase if we were to nerf SnB damage ? I'm not convinced.

By "Medium armor playstyle" I basically mean high damage, good mobility, but very low survivability. The DPS Tanks that I talk about are gaining the benefits of S+B defense with sustainable DPS through the use of SnB weaving.
Diversity would most likely be crippled even further if the changes I'm after go through, which is why we should be advocating to making the weapon skill lines more appealing: Buff flurry, completely redo the Wrecking Blow morph of Uppercut, speed up the animation of Cleave (I've actually got this dealing some alright damage this patch, but its long/slow animation kind of sucks).

The more I think about it, perhaps just buffing these weapon skills above might be enough. Currently the highest damaging weapon ability we have is Dizzying Swing, but it's horrible, especially in lag. It's no wonder people use SnB for offense. Perhaps if the other skills were buffed/changed, people may be more inclined to switch, and those who don't use SnB may have a better time dealing with those who do.

Qbiken

I would reduce snare to 30%. Deep slash gets minor maim, heroic slash gets minor heroism.

Aznox

I agree reworking Wrecking blow to make 2H a viable front-bar would be top priority.

Regarding Deep Slash, maybe up its (already high) cost a bit, if you really want to be sure it can't be used as an all-in-one spammable-buff-debuff ?

Alucardo

Aznox wrote: »

I agree reworking Wrecking blow to make 2H a viable front-bar would be top priority.

Regarding Deep Slash, maybe up it's (already high) cost a bit, if you really want to be sure it can't be used as an all-in-one spammable-buff-debuff ?

I'd most likely be fine if these two points were looked at. I suppose pve tanks don't spam heroic, so adjusting its cost wouldn't affect them too much

Solariken

I can almost guarantee that it's Fury+7 you should be mad at, not SnB

Alucardo

Solariken wrote: »

I can almost guarantee that it's Fury+7 you should be mad at, not SnB

Perhaps. I suppose if people still ran fury+seventh with updated weapon skill lines it would be just as bad. Why ZOS gave heavy armor the highest damaging sets in the game along with the best mitigation, healing and resource return I will never understand.
The more it's discussed the further away from a solution I feel it becomes

Gnozo

So basicly every stamdk, stamsorc and stamwarden are then forced into running 2h as their spammable? Pls No.

Getting hit from a 10 heroic prolly means your defense is completly weak or your oponent was a dk with corrosive armor Up.

Ransack/Heroic are completly fine, otherwise the whole sword and board Playstyle would be dead for pvp. You think ransack damage is too high? Talk about surprise attack.

Alucardo

Gnozo wrote: »

So basicly every stamdk, stamsorc and stamwarden are then forced into running 2h as their spammable? Pls No.

Getting hit from a 10 heroic prolly means your defense is completly weak or your oponent was a dk with corrosive armor Up.

Ransack/Heroic are completly fine, otherwise the whole sword and board Playstyle would be dead for pvp. You think ransack damage is too high? Talk about surprise attack.

Well, 2h or DW. But as I said in above comments, I'd want to see those skill lines looked at to be more appealing also. And I didn't say I'm getting hit by 10k heroics - I said my tooltip is 10k with a SnB setup, and that's just with major brutality. Considering that gives a fat snare, ulti return and debuffs the target, do you still not think it's too much?

As for Nightblades, I'm not even tempted to go there right now. But if you want my perspective on them, I think they were designed perfectly. It's the other classes that weren't, which is why NBs feel so strong.

Gnozo

Alucardo wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

So basicly every stamdk, stamsorc and stamwarden are then forced into running 2h as their spammable? Pls No.

Getting hit from a 10 heroic prolly means your defense is completly weak or your oponent was a dk with corrosive armor Up.

Ransack/Heroic are completly fine, otherwise the whole sword and board Playstyle would be dead for pvp. You think ransack damage is too high? Talk about surprise attack.

Well, 2h or DW. But as I said in above comments, I'd want to see those skill lines looked at to be more appealing also. And I didn't say I'm getting hit by 10k heroics - I said my tooltip is 10k with a SnB setup, and that's just with major brutality. Considering that gives a fat snare, ulti return and debuffs the target, do you still not think it's too much?

As for Nightblades, I'm not even tempted to go there right now. But if you want my perspective on them, I think they were designed perfectly. It's the other classes that weren't, which is why NBs feel so strong.

Tell me a Setup where just major brutality gives you a 10k tooltip?

2h and dw are not good cause their spammable is just not good. Dizzy is clunky,easy to avoid and simply doesnt work in lag. Dw is even worse and is just used to apply dots and pressure.

Normal sword and board setups are getting between 8K - 9k tooltip, maybe 10k fully fully buffed. And it just feels more realistic to fight with sword and board instead of running around with a massive 2h.

Alucardo

Gnozo wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

So basicly every stamdk, stamsorc and stamwarden are then forced into running 2h as their spammable? Pls No.

Getting hit from a 10 heroic prolly means your defense is completly weak or your oponent was a dk with corrosive armor Up.

Ransack/Heroic are completly fine, otherwise the whole sword and board Playstyle would be dead for pvp. You think ransack damage is too high? Talk about surprise attack.

Well, 2h or DW. But as I said in above comments, I'd want to see those skill lines looked at to be more appealing also. And I didn't say I'm getting hit by 10k heroics - I said my tooltip is 10k with a SnB setup, and that's just with major brutality. Considering that gives a fat snare, ulti return and debuffs the target, do you still not think it's too much?

As for Nightblades, I'm not even tempted to go there right now. But if you want my perspective on them, I think they were designed perfectly. It's the other classes that weren't, which is why NBs feel so strong.

Tell me a Setup where just major brutality gives you a 10k tooltip?

2h and dw are not good cause their spammable is just not good. Dizzy is clunky,easy to avoid and simply doesnt work in lag. Dw is even worse and is just used to apply dots and pressure.

Normal sword and board setups are getting between 8K - 9k tooltip, maybe 10k fully fully buffed. And it just feels more realistic to fight with sword and board instead of running around with a massive 2h.

Why would I publicly announce a build I want to see less of?

I agree 2h and dw aren't good, which is what I've been trying to say. If they are to take away one weapon skill damage option, I'd like to see the other ones become more useful at the same time.

Aznox

Gnozo wrote: »

2h and dw are not good cause their spammable is just not good. Dizzy is clunky,easy to avoid and simply doesnt work in lag. Dw is even worse and is just used to apply dots and pressure.

DW does have a very good spammable in Rending.

Gnozo

Alucardo wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

So basicly every stamdk, stamsorc and stamwarden are then forced into running 2h as their spammable? Pls No.

Getting hit from a 10 heroic prolly means your defense is completly weak or your oponent was a dk with corrosive armor Up.

Ransack/Heroic are completly fine, otherwise the whole sword and board Playstyle would be dead for pvp. You think ransack damage is too high? Talk about surprise attack.

Well, 2h or DW. But as I said in above comments, I'd want to see those skill lines looked at to be more appealing also. And I didn't say I'm getting hit by 10k heroics - I said my tooltip is 10k with a SnB setup, and that's just with major brutality. Considering that gives a fat snare, ulti return and debuffs the target, do you still not think it's too much?

As for Nightblades, I'm not even tempted to go there right now. But if you want my perspective on them, I think they were designed perfectly. It's the other classes that weren't, which is why NBs feel so strong.

Tell me a Setup where just major brutality gives you a 10k tooltip?

2h and dw are not good cause their spammable is just not good. Dizzy is clunky,easy to avoid and simply doesnt work in lag. Dw is even worse and is just used to apply dots and pressure.

Normal sword and board setups are getting between 8K - 9k tooltip, maybe 10k fully fully buffed. And it just feels more realistic to fight with sword and board instead of running around with a massive 2h.

Why would I publicly announce a build I want to see less of?

I agree 2h and dw aren't good, which is what I've been trying to say. If they are to take away one weapon skill damage option, I'd like to see the other ones become more useful at the same time.

Why not just buff 2h and dw instead of nerfing sword and board? But i guess ESO Community only want to nerf things that they get Killed from.

Ayastigi

Alucardo wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

With so many heavy armor sets with pure damage bonuses, it’s pretty clear that this is what zeni wants.

I thought that too, but the more I think about it I'm not so sure HA is the problem. When you see these turtle DPS builds, what do they all have in common? Heroic Slash/Puncture.
I'm starting to think if we remove SnB from their offense, things might get better. It won't be perfect by any means, but it'll be a hell of a lot better than what we have now.

So bascially you met somebody that killed you in pvp and you ran to the forums to cry for a nerf..that's pathetic lmao..nerfing snb doesn't matter for people like you because when you get killed by somebody using a bow,dw, or destro staff you'll be right back here crying how you shouldn't of died to the better player and how their skills should be nerfed. Go learn the game and get better instead of trying to take away other players tools because they outplay you.