Alright, something needs to be done about SnB

Alucardo · March 2019

Ayastigi wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

With so many heavy armor sets with pure damage bonuses, it’s pretty clear that this is what zeni wants.

I thought that too, but the more I think about it I'm not so sure HA is the problem. When you see these turtle DPS builds, what do they all have in common? Heroic Slash/Puncture.
I'm starting to think if we remove SnB from their offense, things might get better. It won't be perfect by any means, but it'll be a hell of a lot better than what we have now.

So bascially you met somebody that killed you in pvp and you ran to the forums to cry for a nerf..that's pathetic lmao..nerfing snb doesn't matter for people like you because when you get killed by somebody using a bow,dw, or destro staff you'll be right back here crying how you shouldn't of died to the better player and how their skills should be nerfed. Go learn the game and get better instead of trying to take away other players tools because they outplay you.

Did I say that? No. From now on I'll be ignoring useless comments like this.

IzzyStardust · March 2019

Alucardo wrote: »

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the number of "DPS Tanks" in PvP is getting out of control. It should not be possible to hit a 10k heroic slash tooltip with above capped resistances, especially considering all the other utility it provides. Quite frankly, HS is overloaded.

My suggestion is simple: Remove, or significantly reduce the damage portion of this skill, as well as puncture. They were made to be utility abilities for tanks, not to outdamage a medium armor build smashing you with dizzying swing.
Tanks do not need to be dealing the amount of damage they do while also having the gift of immortality. I'd go further to also reduce the damage of bash (interrupt, not the SnB skill).

Please note, I'm just asking for the damage part to be taken away. So this should not affect PvE as the utility of these skills are completely left in place. In fact, with the damage part completely nerfed you could make up for it by reducing the cost of the skill by 3-5%

Oh dear GOD please don't try and make it any harder for me to do anything but tank DLC on my tank?

What people often space about PVE tanks, is that we have no damage, we cannot do ***, besides stand there in front of monsters and chain things and whatever - and we too, would like to take those chars to PVP/BG now and then.

If you just ripperino our stuff - then I cannot even EVER bring that char to anything but pledges/DLC stuff - and in which case, I may as well just fkn delete it. I already have far less skillpoints because going to anything on a tank alone, SUCKS!

Ayastigi · March 2019

Alucardo wrote: »

Akagami94 wrote: »

It's that or the 15k dizzing swings, which you prefer?

At least I can walk through dizzying swings, and have time to react to them. Fighting a macro lord weaving SnB, your health disappears before your very eyes.

Yea, you said it. Translation, people using snb dps my health down right before my eyes and it makes me upset because I should be able to kill them wahhhhh wahhhh wahhhh

Ragnaroek93 · March 2019

I'd much rather see other things buffed than SnB nerfed. 2h, bow and dual wield need a proper spammable instant cast which can compete with heroic slash (more damage but less utility) and med armor would need a bit more defense. Nb is the only class which has nice build diversity the other classes do all feel locked into SnB.

md3788 · March 2019

So you just want to pigeonhole 1h/shield into only being used by PvE tanks because you get outplayed by them

Gnozo · March 2019

md3788 wrote: »

So you just want to pigeonhole 1h/shield into only being used by PvE tanks because you get outplayed by them

This post in a nutshell

Alucardo · March 2019

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I'd much rather see other things buffed than SnB nerfed. 2h, bow and dual wield need a proper spammable instant cast which can compete with heroic slash (more damage but less utility) and med armor would need a bit more defense. Nb is the only class which has nice build diversity the other classes do all feel locked into SnB.

Aye, this was also discussed in previous comments. In a fight against a slow attack that can be walked through like Dizzying versus SnB weaving, the latter is always going to win.
It might help things if 2h had some better DPS options

Alucardo · March 2019

Gnozo wrote: »

md3788 wrote: »

So you just want to pigeonhole 1h/shield into only being used by PvE tanks because you get outplayed by them

This post in a nutshell

Out of everyone who has commented in this thread, you have probably missed the point more than most. Have a good read through the comments, and when you actually understand it please feel free to respond.

Aznox · March 2019

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I'd much rather see other things buffed than SnB nerfed. 2h, bow and dual wield need a proper spammable instant cast which can compete with heroic slash (more damage but less utility) and med armor would need a bit more defense. Nb is the only class which has nice build diversity the other classes do all feel locked into SnB.

Rending does compete with heroic slash.

Also keep cool people, nobody said SnB shouldn't be a competitive PvP skill line, can we talk about potential 5-10% adjustments without the discussion bursting in flame ?

Burtan · March 2019

I think rather than nerfing SnB any further we should look towards buffing/adding other weapon spammables.

Cleave could receive a small buff to make it a more viable spammable but not too much as it could become broken with master 2h. (master 2h could also receive a nerf to accommodate such a change)
Wrecking Blow could become instant cast with less overall damage and no CC to allow for more reliable use and better weaving while Dizzying Swing remains the more clunky CC option.
Snipe should have an instant cast morph that deals less overall damage for the same reasons stated above and also to help deal with the annoying snipe spam playstyles that are so prevalent in Cyrodiil.
Rapid Strikes should be scrapped and replaced with something else because its useless (change my mind).

Or... just give every class a god damn spammable.

Crixus8000 · March 2019

I don't think snb needs to be nerfed and I don't think heavy armor sets like seventh and fury need nerfing either, and nerfing the sets would make all spammable options worse, not just snb. People run heavy because it's a good option, medium is too squishy in this crazy high dmg proc meta and has really bad set options. Snb is good because there is little other choice. stamdens, dks and stamsorcs basically have the option of snb or dizzy swing for spammable, and dizzy swing is clunky, unreliable, works bad in lag and is the most easily countered skill in the game.

Aznox · March 2019

Crixus8000 wrote: »

I don't think snb needs to be nerfed and I don't think heavy armor sets like seventh and fury need nerfing either, and nerfing the sets would make all spammable options worse, not just snb. People run heavy because it's a good option, medium is too squishy in this crazy high dmg proc meta and has really bad set options. Snb is good because there is little other choice. stamdens, dks and stamsorcs basically have the option of snb or dizzy swing for spammable, and dizzy swing is clunky, unreliable, works bad in lag and is the most easily countered skill in the game.

"These are not overperforming"
why ?
"Because they are the best option"

edit : also why is everybody ignoring rending slashes as a spammable ?

Crixus8000 · March 2019

Aznox wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

I don't think snb needs to be nerfed and I don't think heavy armor sets like seventh and fury need nerfing either, and nerfing the sets would make all spammable options worse, not just snb. People run heavy because it's a good option, medium is too squishy in this crazy high dmg proc meta and has really bad set options. Snb is good because there is little other choice. stamdens, dks and stamsorcs basically have the option of snb or dizzy swing for spammable, and dizzy swing is clunky, unreliable, works bad in lag and is the most easily countered skill in the game.

"These are not overperforming"
why ?
"Because they are the best option"

edit : also why is everybody ignoring rending slashes as a spammable ?

I have fought snb builds and used them, I never thought it was overpowered, or overperforming, in fact I have more success in 1vx with using dizzy swing, the huge burst and better range works more for me, while I found snb much better 1v1. And rending is good yeah, I just don't think it's close to other options imo.

Rake · March 2019

Alucardo wrote: »

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the number of "DPS Tanks" in PvP is getting out of control. It should not be possible to hit a 10k heroic slash tooltip with above capped resistances, especially considering all the other utility it provides. Quite frankly, HS is overloaded.

My suggestion is simple: Remove, or significantly reduce the damage portion of this skill, as well as puncture. They were made to be utility abilities for tanks, not to outdamage a medium armor build smashing you with dizzying swing.
Tanks do not need to be dealing the amount of damage they do while also having the gift of immortality. I'd go further to also reduce the damage of bash (interrupt, not the SnB skill).

Please note, I'm just asking for the damage part to be taken away. So this should not affect PvE as the utility of these skills are completely left in place. In fact, with the damage part completely nerfed you could make up for it by reducing the cost of the skill by 3-5%

Do not lie, also do not go naked to PvP.
10k heroic? What a bs

Ragnarock41 · March 2019

Let me guess, was it also an ''immortal Dk''?

What are you? full divines stamblade or something?

Minno · March 2019

Akagami94 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Akagami94 wrote: »

It's that or the 15k dizzing swings, which you prefer?

At least I can walk through dizzying swings, and have time to react to them. Fighting a macro lord weaving SnB, your health disappears before your very eyes.

Then u better stick with pvE mate :')

"Have you tried pve?" Lol

Rikumaru · March 2019

There's nothing wrong with puncture. As for heroic slash, the snare needs to be reduced significantly or removed. But as for the damage, it's completely fine imo. If they are going 1h 1s then they also must be going 2h (unless it's a super weird build) which means they miss out on rending or bow roll dodge + inject from bow skill line. I don't see an issue with this, especially considering how overtuned rending is at the moment.

I get why you dislike high tanky high damage builds, but that isn't a problem with the 1h 1s skill line, rather it's a problem with sets and how the game has been balanced in general. There aren't any good medium armor stat increasing sets atm. Heavy has just as good mobility as medium due to forward momentum being a better skill than shuffle. Bursty builds just don't work nearly as well anymore.

MannKurt · March 2019

If using snb is wrong for pvp dd why should templar be able to use healing skills?

Xvorg · March 2019

Alucardo wrote: »

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the number of "DPS Tanks" in PvP is getting out of control. It should not be possible to hit a 10k heroic slash tooltip with above capped resistances, especially considering all the other utility it provides. Quite frankly, HS is overloaded.

My suggestion is simple: Remove, or significantly reduce the damage portion of this skill, as well as puncture. They were made to be utility abilities for tanks, not to outdamage a medium armor build smashing you with dizzying swing.
Tanks do not need to be dealing the amount of damage they do while also having the gift of immortality. I'd go further to also reduce the damage of bash (interrupt, not the SnB skill).

Please note, I'm just asking for the damage part to be taken away. So this should not affect PvE as the utility of these skills are completely left in place. In fact, with the damage part completely nerfed you could make up for it by reducing the cost of the skill by 3-5%

I think that the biggest offender here is S/B ulti paired with 7th legion/Ravager/VH. Before S/B ulti things were pretty much in control (there are CCs for permablockers)

Chilly-McFreeze · March 2019

Rikumaru wrote: »

. But as for the damage, it's completely fine imo

I didn't want to dive into this conversation but it seems like I have to swipe in here. I wanted to see if this holds true on my no CP build. I simply changed my offhand weapon from DW to Shield. Same sets etc. According to UESP:

DW: 30.8k stam, 5.7k weapon dmg. Flying Blade (ST morph) 8598 dmg (2.1k stam cost)
1h&S: 31.8k stam (shield enchant), 5.4k weapon dmg. Heroic: 8700 dmg (2.23k stam), Ransack 7955 dmg (1.3k stam)

Make from that information whatever you want.

E: forgot to swap Dawnbreaker from SnB bar to Shield Ulti (lower weapon dmg). Heroic hits still for 8588 dmg.

El_Borracho · March 2019

S&B isn't even the hardest-hitting build. And someone wants to nerf it. Unreal.

I'm guessing this tale of woe began with a loaded up snipe from stealth going awry...

Alucardo · March 2019

Burtan wrote: »

I think rather than nerfing SnB any further we should look towards buffing/adding other weapon spammables.
Cleave could receive a small buff to make it a more viable spammable but not too much as it could become broken with master 2h. (master 2h could also receive a nerf to accommodate such a change)

Wrecking Blow could become instant cast with less overall damage and no CC to allow for more reliable use and better weaving while Dizzying Swing remains the more clunky CC option.

Snipe should have an instant cast morph that deals less overall damage for the same reasons stated above and also to help deal with the annoying snipe spam playstyles that are so prevalent in Cyrodiil.

Rapid Strikes should be scrapped and replaced with something else because its useless (change my mind).

Or... just give every class a god damn spammable.

Really good suggestions. It restores my faith in humanity when someone understands the point of a discussion instead of lashes out with "bruh u suk l2p". Yes, I like the sound of making these other abilities more viable (except snipe. just hearing it gives me ptsd). They could rework venom arrow instead.
With a buff to Cleave I can't see it being too OP, even with the master weapon. I don't think people are going to want to drop a 5pc set just to run the master sword, but it might make 2h in PvE more viable for sure.
They've got the weapon abilities there with lots of potential, but outshined by SnB because it's just the more reliable and safe option.

As for the heavy armor comments.. that deserves its own thread, but after this one, I'm not willing to go there. Heh.

Alucardo · March 2019

El_Borracho wrote: »

S&B isn't even the hardest-hitting build. And someone wants to nerf it. Unreal.

I'm guessing this tale of woe began with a loaded up snipe from stealth going awry...

Comments like this is why I donate regularly to BDS; a society that helps children who have brain cell deterioration caused by too much gaming.
We'll find a cure someday. Hang in there buddy.

Ayastigi · March 2019

Alucardo wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

S&B isn't even the hardest-hitting build. And someone wants to nerf it. Unreal.

I'm guessing this tale of woe began with a loaded up snipe from stealth going awry...

Comments like this is why I donate regularly to BDS; a society that helps children who have brain cell deterioration caused by too much gaming.
We'll find a cure someday. Hang in there buddy.

It's funny you're talking all that mess considering you got packed up in pvp and ran to the forums to make a nerf thread and cry about it instead of realizing it's a l2p issue.

Toc de Malsvi · March 2019

Half of Cyrodiil is running S&B. Vast majority of "good" players have at least one bar S&B. Tells you a lot about how well it performs.

MannKurt · March 2019

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Half of Cyrodiil is running S&B. Vast majority of "good" players have at least one bar S&B. Tells you a lot about how well it performs.

Tells you a lot about how well cheese-peezzee nbs and other op sheeeeeeeet perform

keevil111 · March 2019

The actual base damage for 1H+S moves could be reduced by half or more, seeing as how it should be used for utility and mitigation anyways. PVE tanks don't need high damage tool tips to succeed. The enchant nerf kinda blows for PVE, though. But it does help the PVP side of things by trimming some of the dmg off of shield holders.

I always felt that 2H skills should be slow, like uppercut, but super powerful. If it's hard to land, it should decimate players when it does. That creates the risk/ reward factor. A dmg buff to 2H would be nice but then it may be OP for PVE...

Although some heavy sets are geared towards damage, I don't think those should be messed with. After all, we have light armor with lots of mitigation giving us options to "play how you want." I mean, maybe tone the heavy+damage sets down a bit, idk.

The struggle is real for whoever is in charge of ESO balance, lol.

Savos_Saren · March 2019

Alucardo wrote: »

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the number of "DPS Tanks" in PvP is getting out of control. It should not be possible to hit a 10k heroic slash tooltip with above capped resistances, especially considering all the other utility it provides. Quite frankly, HS is overloaded.

My suggestion is simple: Remove, or significantly reduce the damage portion of this skill, as well as puncture. They were made to be utility abilities for tanks, not to outdamage a medium armor build smashing you with dizzying swing.
Tanks do not need to be dealing the amount of damage they do while also having the gift of immortality. I'd go further to also reduce the damage of bash (interrupt, not the SnB skill).

Please note, I'm just asking for the damage part to be taken away. So this should not affect PvE as the utility of these skills are completely left in place. In fact, with the damage part completely nerfed you could make up for it by reducing the cost of the skill by 3-5%

Sure. Change the 5% weapon damage to 2.5% weapon and spell damage.

Burtan · March 2019

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Half of Cyrodiil is running S&B. Vast majority of "good" players have at least one bar S&B. Tells you a lot about how well it performs.

Most of cyrodiil is nightblades spamming snipe, so it doesn't really say much at all.

Rikumaru · March 2019

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Half of Cyrodiil is running S&B. Vast majority of "good" players have at least one bar S&B. Tells you a lot about how well it performs.

I'm not seeing that much 1h 1s in cyrodill. Maybe in CP campaigns it's a better option. In no-cp from my experience for the past 2 months it's been all DW + 2h using rending and master axes.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

. But as for the damage, it's completely fine imo

I didn't want to dive into this conversation but it seems like I have to swipe in here. I wanted to see if this holds true on my no CP build. I simply changed my offhand weapon from DW to Shield. Same sets etc. According to UESP:

DW: 30.8k stam, 5.7k weapon dmg. Flying Blade (ST morph) 8598 dmg (2.1k stam cost)
1h&S: 31.8k stam (shield enchant), 5.4k weapon dmg. Heroic: 8700 dmg (2.23k stam), Ransack 7955 dmg (1.3k stam)

Make from that information whatever you want.

E: forgot to swap Dawnbreaker from SnB bar to Shield Ulti (lower weapon dmg). Heroic hits still for 8588 dmg.

Sure, but flying blade has a ranged and AoE damage component. Flying blade isn't a popular spammable for a reason. It's not because heroic is overperforming imo (other than the snare part which is op) but rather WB and flying blade are just bad abilities. Also I wouldn't use UESP for factual evidence for builds. There's alot of stuff which doesn't work / apply on it.