Antisocial game design flaws

Leeched · March 2019

DID SOMEONE SAY LEECHING?

linoge63 · March 2019

I agree especially regarding telvars and resource nodes.

I'm fairly new to IC and my 1st response was to help a fellow factionite take down this boss since the longer the battle unfolds the more likely s/he'd be ganked by opponents. I then find out later that I took half of the telvars that they more than probably could have easily secured without my help.
Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I'd add to the list fishing. Consider that instead of only boosting the chance of catching a rare fish you also restock the fishing spot for its quite obvious that the act itself of fishing usually is the limiting factor re the econ aspects not the amount of fish people will obtain.
Instead, you have it that many feel they are intruding on a spot already engaged by another rather than feeling invited knowing the original fisherman can continue to fish ----in a way this is really no differently than uninvitingly sharing a telvar loaded boss---- with a war ally no less

I know fishermen that will intentionally leave junk in chests as a way to say, you want split the fish in my spot, great-you can split the chest items and resource nodes I find too.

Girl_Number8 · March 2019

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

ESO has far too many design flaws that create opportunities for toxic, trolly behavior and leaves players with no in-game recourse to remedy the problems. Other flaws are simply frustrating and damage the social element of the game in other ways. Here are some I've noticed:

LEECHING
Experience - XP gets split when multiple players hit the same target, leading to players fighting over grind spots when leveling a new character or topping off a skill. Worse, lowbies who can't pull their own weight are able to reduce the gains of other players by leeching. What's the point? Sure, if there's 3+ people then cut XP down to 90%, maybe, but there is no reason to cut it any further than that. The cuts seem to be based on the theory that larger groups would kill things faster and make up the difference, but that's simply not how it works in practice. And why discourage group play??? In practice, XP cutting is intrinsically toxic game design with no beneficial function.
Tel var - Every time I go to IC or sewers, some weasley Nightblade parasite stalks me, creeping around behind me heavy attacking my kills to get Tel var they can't earn for themselves. Then when the enemy shows up, they cloak and run. I have to pull bosses into buildings to solo them to try to keep these pathetic leeches from jumping in after I've done all the work of getting them into execute phase and stealing half my gains. Why split Tel Var at all? Full tel var gains for everyone would make IC more attractive for all kinds of players! Solo, small group, gankers, everybody would be better off if other people from your own team didn't take away your gains. Again, why are you discouraging group play in a social game?

CHAT PROBLEMS: this is a social game with a broken communication system (XB1, probably PS4 too)
Swapping channels - every time we join a group or a BG, we are involuntarily kicked out of guild chat. And we get forced into Area chat after BG's. STOP CHANGING OUR FRIGGIN' CHANNELS!!!! NOBODY WANTS THIS WORTHLESS, BROKEN "FEATURE". I can change it myself if I want to.
Losing channels - when channels swap, especially when we are trying to swap back to the channel you kicked us out of, we often lose voice chat entirely and the channels all disappear. Frankly, everyone responsible should be embarrassed over this. A social MMO company whose primary means of social interaction has been broken FOR YEARS and customer service won't even respond or try to fix this mess. It's shameful.

TOXIC BEHAVIOR
Shared resources nodes - We should have our own nodes, but instead, bad game design allows toxic a-holes to zip up and steal nodes I've already activated due to ZOS' trash servers and lag. I shouldn't have to race someone else's internet connection just to pick up rocks. In fact, why am I racing them at all? Does ZOS think this adds fun to the game? It doesn't. Fighting over nodes with other players is not enjoyable. And then they can refuse to duel?! I should be able to kill a person who takes something I was already picking up. Either give us all our own personal nodes to harvest, or let us slaughter the competition.
Faction jumping - Nobody should be able to enter a campaign on characters of more than one alliance, EVER. The ability to do so allows spying and other vengeful behavior, making it intrinsically toxic.

So, what else have you noticed? In what ways does bad game design make ESO more frustrating, toxic, or otherwise antisocial? And how could ZOS fix it?

Use party chat from the system rather then the game it works. You're welcome.

For the Xp in overland it was designed this way for a reason.

Fraction locking I disagree with because it doesn't solve the problem and keeps friends from playing together that are not playing for 'toxic reasons'. It still doesn't stop team purple and team green and many other abuses that have been here for so long. Though hitting Zergs by reducing the AP% for each person added after a certain reasonable number of players I see as positive. Rewarding the higher risk playstyle of small scale groups and not skilless mobs.

Though with cyro there are so many things that could be added but to me the most 'toxic' thing right now is the games performance. Cx it is so horrible on Xbox I wonder if one of the bikeriders that keep the servers running properly died or ran away.

And using the word TOXIC so much is not really a good word to use for discussing changes.

Gnortranermara · March 2019

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Use party chat from the system rather then the game it works. You're welcome.

Party chat breaks just as often as in-game chat. It has its own set of inconveniences, but those are complaints for a different company. I'm saying that ZOS could improve their own in-game chat experience by leaving our channel selections alone and improving the stability of the system so channels won't disappear.

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

And using the word TOXIC so much is not really a good word to use for discussing changes.

I don't believe in sugarcoating problems. I'm just calling it what it is. There are a lot of aspects of the game that create unnecessary friction between players, and I think the game managers should take another pass at reviewing those design decisions and making the game more pro-social.

wishlist14 · March 2019

I agree with faction jumping being a huge issue in pvp so much so that players don't even bother to hide the fact that they do it. As soon as there is the obvious winning side they go off to join it and laugh about it too. I only pvp on one faction simply because well, I have integrity as a player. I refuse to go to the big factions as I call them...they always outnumber us and usually zerg. If you haven't already guessed it I play DC. For honour and glory !!!
I love most DC groups I can get into...the people are usually cool. It's a shame some are not dedicated DC pvpers but I understand they probably get frustrated with the obvious issues.

jainiadral · March 2019

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

And using the word TOXIC so much is not really a good word to use for discussing changes.

I don't believe in sugarcoating problems. I'm just calling it what it is. There are a lot of aspects of the game that create unnecessary friction between players, and I think the game managers should take another pass at reviewing those design decisions and making the game more pro-social.

FWIW, a lot of these situations are toxic in the original sense of the word--poison to the goodwill between players. This whole emphasis on competition in XP, in node gathering, etc. makes me dread seeing other players. I'll admit, I'd gotten a little too used to either SWL low-population instances or GW2-style cooperative engineering that coming here felt like getting smacked by a mack truck. In those two games, I was happy to see other players.

blacksghost · March 2019

Guess it’s just not all about you, eh.

DBZVelena · March 2019

Kurat wrote: »

Lol, if XP was cut down only to 90%. I would get 10 of them wtb skyreach spammers in Craglorn and do carries all day long lol. 50k per run every 5 mins. This game would turn into grind fest then. Its already bad enough. Everytime I'm pugging dungeon I get high cp players pulling only 10k dps and don't know mechs. Alikir dolm grinders.
XP split should remain as is. Just play the game man. There's more than grinding out there.

I don't think you understand. if exp was better designed. the Alikr dolmen grind would stop all together. Because doing normal content suddenly would actually help with leveling better. and then players would do more than hit skill 1.

Itzmichi · March 2019

Katlefiya wrote: »

You're post seems pretty antisocial to me, too.

Thank you. Made my day.

VaranisArano · March 2019

DBZVelena wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Lol, if XP was cut down only to 90%. I would get 10 of them wtb skyreach spammers in Craglorn and do carries all day long lol. 50k per run every 5 mins. This game would turn into grind fest then. Its already bad enough. Everytime I'm pugging dungeon I get high cp players pulling only 10k dps and don't know mechs. Alikir dolm grinders.
XP split should remain as is. Just play the game man. There's more than grinding out there.

I don't think you understand. if exp was better designed. the Alikr dolmen grind would stop all together. Because doing normal content suddenly would actually help with leveling better. and then players would do more than hit skill 1.

Eh, the Alikr Dolmen grind (And Skyreach grinding, and crafting writ grinding) happens because players who have already experienced the game want to get their alts to the end-game as fast as possible with as little effort as possible. Generally, these players aren't interested in the questing experience as much as they are interested in leveling a new class/race combo to play with their friends in dungeons and trials.

Me, I like to spec my leveling characters as tanks or healers and Daily Random Dungeon my way to Level 50. But that's because I actually like to play as a tank or healer and so that counts as less effort for me because I enjoy it and get near instant queues - for players who prefer to play DD, that's a much slower/less efficient method (unless they queue as a fake tank, which I also see happening when I'm on my healer).

Questing is an excellent way to level for new players. Its pretty fun even for experienced players as long as you don't mind playing through quests you've already done on several alts. Its just not quick, because its designed to give you an actual sense of progression from level 1 to 50. I did the Summerset quest on a brand new character and made it from level 1 to 20. The draw of leveling through questing is for the story. not the exp. For anyone who is of the mindset of "I did the story once, I'm not running it again...questing is a boring way to level. Alternatively, for anyone doing the quests for the first time, you don't want them to level up too fast, or they don't have time to grow into their character.

In other words, in a game that very much encourages having alt characters and rerolling to fit the new meta every patch while still trying to preserve a good new player experience, trying to make "normal content" i.e. questing and normal dungeons the preferred methods of leveling requires that those methods be faster and more efficient for experienced players. Merely adding more EXP or removing EXP from other sources doesn't make them more efficient. Moreover, you don't want questing and normal dungeons to be too good, or else new players level up too quickly. Its a balancing act.

CassandraGemini · March 2019

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

TOXIC BEHAVIOR
Shared resources nodes - We should have our own nodes, but instead, bad game design allows toxic a-holes to zip up and steal nodes I've already activated due to ZOS' trash servers and lag. I shouldn't have to race someone else's internet connection just to pick up rocks. In fact, why am I racing them at all? Does ZOS think this adds fun to the game? It doesn't. Fighting over nodes with other players is not enjoyable. And then they can refuse to duel?! I should be able to kill a person who takes something I was already picking up. Either give us all our own personal nodes to harvest, or let us slaughter the competition.

Wow, you must have some serious issues, if someone taking "your" node, who might not even have realized you were trying to pick it up as well, invokes feelings of blood revenge in you. Seriously, there are so many nodes around that sometimes I can't take three steps without stumbling upon one of them, so please chill out a bit and stop creating even more absolutely unnecessary toxicity with posts like this.

Gnortranermara · March 2019

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Wow, you must have some serious issues, if someone taking "your" node, who might not even have realized you were trying to pick it up as well, invokes feelings of blood revenge in you. Seriously, there are so many nodes around that sometimes I can't take three steps without stumbling upon one of them, so please chill out a bit and stop creating even more absolutely unnecessary toxicity with posts like this.

You made a choice to imagine some fantasy situation where I'm talking about some random guy passing by and doing this once at some random node or whatever. That's a misinterpretation you imagined all by yourself. Try to imagine that maybe I'm a rational human being who might actually be talking about something less trivial, and if you can't imagine that then GTFO and don't waste my time. I'm talking about when I'm farming a route, people persistently show up within a few minutes to follow the same route, and follow me around, racing me to every node, and even when I'm there first and activating the damned things, repeatedly mashing the button trying to harvest, these other people still slide up behind me a full second later and harvest the node I've already physical pressed the button to take. Over, and over, and over, and over. And this happens primarily due to lag and artifacts in how the server's targeting system deals with multiple clients. My argument is that racing for nodes is a crappy pseudo-competition that emerged from bad design decisions, it has no effective play/counterplay designed into it, and the whole thing should be scrapped in favor of either individual nodes or some sort of means to fight off competitors. Something like this: you cannot refuse a duel for 10 seconds after harvesting a node and you cannot harvest in that zone again for 15 minutes after losing such a duel. (I don't like that idea either, and would rather have individualized nodes, but at least the competition would become one of skill instead of internet speed.)

CassandraGemini · March 2019

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Wow, you must have some serious issues, if someone taking "your" node, who might not even have realized you were trying to pick it up as well, invokes feelings of blood revenge in you. Seriously, there are so many nodes around that sometimes I can't take three steps without stumbling upon one of them, so please chill out a bit and stop creating even more absolutely unnecessary toxicity with posts like this.

You made a choice to imagine some fantasy situation where I'm talking about some random guy passing by and doing this once at some random node or whatever. That's a misinterpratation you imagined all by yourself. Try to imagine that maybe I'm a rational human being who might actually be talking about something less trivial, and if you can't imagine that then GTFO and don't waste my time. I'm talking about when I'm farming a route, people persistently show up within a few minutes to follow the same route, and follow me around, racing me to every node, and even when I'm there first and activating the damned things, repeatedly mashing the button trying to harvest, these other people still slide up behind me a full second later and harvest the node I've already physical pressed the button to take. Over, and over, and over, and over. And this happens primarily due to lag and artifacts in how the server's targeting system deals with multiple clients. My argument is that racing for nodes is a crappy pseudo-competition that emerged from bad design decisions, it has no effective play/counterplay designed into it, and the whole thing should be scrapped in favor of either individual nodes or some sort of means to fight off competitors. Something like this: you cannot refuse a duel for 10 seconds after harvesting a node and you cannot harvest in that zone again for 15 minutes after losing such a duel. (I don't like that idea either, and would rather have individualized nodes, but at least the competition would become one of skill instead of internet speed.)

Okay, look. While I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of everyone having their own nodes, since that would really just be beneficial for everybody, I think that the whole duelling thing you seem to want to introduce here is absolute garbage. We are talking about resource nodes! Everyone has the very same right to farm these things in the same place you do and it's not their fault if you happen to have a bad internet connection! That may suck for you, yes, but come on, if you care so extremely much about resources, just go someplace else to farm them where the competition isn't so high! Which is really weird to me, btw, since I have never - outside of events like now - encountered anyone "persistently stealing my nodes" or whatever. But even if, you can't force people that are just trying to farm resources into pvp when you're not in a designated pvp zone! There's a reason you can decline duels, it's just not everyone's cup of tea to fight other players and that's totally okay!

But hey, maybe I just don't understand how anyone could get so worked up about something such as this (and yes, it is still trivial!) because I have a real life that has other priorities than resource nodes.

Gnortranermara · March 2019

CassandraGemini wrote: »

But hey, maybe I just don't understand how anyone could get so worked up about something such as this (and yes, it is still trivial!) because I have a real life that has other priorities than resource nodes.

I'm not "worked up". Where do you get these ideas? I'm saying it's a poorly designed feature that could be improved to be more prosocial. As it stands, it's a frustrating pseudo-competition that isn't fun and benefits noone. Sure, games are trivial in the grand scheme of the universe, but in this specific context, on the game's forums, frustrating design flaws are a pretty important topic. I'll never understand why you people insist on context-dropping to veil insults.

DisgracefulMind · March 2019

Here we go with the faction swapping again.

If you're lonely, if you're sad. Even if you are a bad.
If you zerg or if you solo. Even if you are a yolo.
Just take a look, we're right around the bend.
You can be. . . a FAIR WEATHER FRIEND ™

CassandraGemini · March 2019

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

I'll never understand why you people insist on context-dropping to veil insults.

Said the guy who told me to "GTFO" before just because I didn't share his opinion. Yeah, right. And as far as "context-dropping" goes, I told you to just be the better man in that situation (which is really all you can do, effectively) and go somewhere else to farm, because that's pretty much the only solution there is right now where we have the shared nodes and I don't believe that's something that will be changed anytime soon. But of course, looking at your signature, I see now why you'd like this concept of duelling for nodes, since you're a former emperor and probably know what you're doing in pvp. Sure, that's fair then, I guess, a very likely pretty good pvp-er against people who are farming nodes, which would then ban them, following your suggestion, from the whole zone for 15 minutes. Seems like a really good idea.

Also, considering your original post you did seem pretty "worked up" to me over the whole thing. Just saying.

(Edit: Considering what you said about the shared nodes being a design flaw... I don't know, I mean, as I said I actually agree with you on the whole, that everyone should have their own nodes. But maybe it's not a design flaw in that sense, but more like something that can't be implemented as easily? I mean, it is one giant server, so... idk, I'm not an expert on these things, but maybe it's just not possible for everyone to see their own nodes? Could imagine that that's the case anyway.)

geonsocal · March 2019

I blame it all on the whole human condition thing..that, and the range of motion of our opposable thumbs...lots of trouble caused by that crazy development...

we'd probably be better off just grunting and groaning at each other too...language is unnecessarily descriptive and communicative...

and yes, no question about it - we should all keep our insults up front and transparent...no doubt that'll normally keep a situation moving along smoothly

Elsonso · March 2019

.

Gnortranermara · March 2019

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Said the guy who told me to "GTFO" before just because I didn't share his opinion.

False. I told you to GTFO if you were going to continue making unfounded assumptions and misinterpretations of what I say. You can lie about it again if you want to, but there's this little scrolly thingy over there that's gonna make you look real stupid to anybody with a mouse wheel.

I don't want to PvP people for nodes. I'm using dueling as an example of some kind of counterplay to these speed farmers who jump in and ruin routes other people are already playing on. That's not a realistic possibility, but it makes the point. Either everyone should have their own nodes because farming nodes should not be adversarial, or if they insist on making it adversarial then there should at least be some legitimate counterplay options.

xaraan · March 2019

Big no from me on this stuff.

It's an MMO, you don't get your own private instances of everything like xp, tel-var, nodes, etc.

If someone is really harassing you, then they have the report system, but most of these complaints are about losing out when the systems are designed around competition. If they rolled out anything of the sort, the amount of nodes, rewards, etc. would all be like 10% of what they are now. The reason there are nodes everywhere, or you earn so much xp and tel-var is b/c of how it's built in to be split up. And frankly, nothing in the game is designed to be a "farm". (You even get xp bonuses from grouping up with someone). Not saying things can't be tweaked here and there, it's an evolving system, but I don't like this idea of "gimme, gimme" that seems to be so popular lately.

CassandraGemini · March 2019

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Said the guy who told me to "GTFO" before just because I didn't share his opinion.

False. I told you to GTFO if you were going to continue making unfounded assumptions and misinterpretations of what I say. You can lie about it again if you want to, but there's this little scrolly thingy over there that's gonna make you look real stupid to anybody with a mouse wheel.

I don't want to PvP people for nodes. I'm using it dueling as an example of some kind of counterplay to these speed farmers who jump in and ruin routes other people are already playing on. That's not a realistic possibility, but it makes the point. Either everyone should have their own nodes because farming nodes should not be adversarial, or if they insist on making it adversarial then there should at least be some legitimate counterplay options.

Honestly, man you're so salty about this it's not even funny anymore. I mean, do you even see what you're doing here? You're accusing me of "lying" when really my point was just that you were the one who actually used a real insult, whereas I did nothing of the sort. Oh, and look, you did it again by calling me "stupid". You're doing a great job at contradicting yourself here over and over again.
Also my first assumption was not unfounded in that sense, since there was nothing in your original post that could have made me or anyone else figure out what you really meant (about people competing for nodes with you on a regular basis or on "routes" that you feel belong to you because you were there first... which is not exactly a very sound argument, to put it mildly). And now I would really like for you to drop this whole thing, I really don't much care for you insulting me again and then trying to make it seem like it's the other way around.

SoLooney · March 2019

All the things you suggested just screams get away from me people

But nevertheless, I agree. I train or level up skills and I see lowbies or role players with high cp trying to leech by light attacking or dropping dots to squeeze a hit in before the mobs I gathered together dies

Exp should be distributed to whoever hits first and whoever does the most damage to the mob, maybe only drop items for the highest damage player unless you're in a group

That way leeches get horrible exp and no drops. Sounds selfish but I see this way too often

Then they wait until I gather more mobs and then squeeze in an attack before that mob dies again

Change your title to, I hate leeches, fix the loot and exp system

Gnortranermara · March 2019

CassandraGemini wrote: »

You're accusing me of "lying"

Correct. Documented in plain text above. Read the quote I was responding to, since it conveniently provides the context you keep dropping. You claimed that I told you to GTFO "because I didn't share his opinion", which is a blatant lie. That is not what I said, and I proved it. It's all right there.

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Oh, and look, you did it again by calling me "stupid".

Astounding. Come on now, this is basic reading comprehension. I said you'd look stupid if you lied again. Thank you for the demonstration. You don't respond to what is actually being said. You're responding to your own uncharitable, neurotic misreadings of what is being said.

CassandraGemini wrote: »

And now I would really like for you to drop this whole thing, I really don't much care for you insulting me again and then trying to make it seem like it's the other way around.

You're free to leave the thread whenever you're ready. Exit, stage left.

I'd much rather focus on how the game could improve than correcting more of your misinterpretations.

CassandraGemini · March 2019

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

You're accusing me of "lying"

Correct. Documented in plain text above. Read the quote I was responding to, since it conveniently provides the context you keep dropping. You claimed that I told you to GTFO "because I didn't share his opinion", which is a blatant lie. That is not what I said, and I proved it. It's all right there.

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Oh, and look, you did it again by calling me "stupid".

Astounding. Come on now, this is basic reading comprehension. I said you'd look stupid if you lied again. Thank you for the demonstration. You don't respond to what is actually being said. You're responding to your own uncharitable, neurotic misreadings of what is being said.

CassandraGemini wrote: »

And now I would really like for you to drop this whole thing, I really don't much care for you insulting me again and then trying to make it seem like it's the other way around.

You're free to leave the thread whenever you're ready. Exit, stage left.

I'd much rather focus on how the game could improve than correcting more of your misinterpretations.

Alright, yeah, I'll leave. Leaving you to keep doing the exact things you claim I do (context-dropping, misinterpreting information and so on and so on) and actually making yourself look pretty stupid in the process, and showing you what I was trying to tell you before but you kept ignoring because you're really only interested in your own opinion: That the better man - or woman in this case - should leave when there is nothing to be gained by staying

Gnortranermara · March 2019

SoLooney wrote: »

All the things you suggested just screams get away from me people

Strange impression, because all of these changes would make it more rewarding for people to play together. I'm talking about changes that would pull more people together, not push them apart.

SoLooney wrote: »

Exp should be distributed to whoever hits first and whoever does the most damage to the mob, maybe only drop items for the highest damage player unless you're in a group

That way leeches get horrible exp and no drops. Sounds selfish but I see this way too often

I like it.

jainiadral · March 2019

SoLooney wrote: »

All the things you suggested just screams get away from me people

But nevertheless, I agree. I train or level up skills and I see lowbies or role players with high cp trying to leech by light attacking or dropping dots to squeeze a hit in before the mobs I gathered together dies

Exp should be distributed to whoever hits first and whoever does the most damage to the mob, maybe only drop items for the highest damage player unless you're in a group

That way leeches get horrible exp and no drops. Sounds selfish but I see this way too often

Then they wait until I gather more mobs and then squeeze in an attack before that mob dies again

Change your title to, I hate leeches, fix the loot and exp system

Because they're trying to finish quests in questing areas. That's the only way they can do what is supposed to be done in said area. If they don't follow you, they get stuck in respawn hell and get jumped by eleventy trillion mobs appearing at once. It's a survival tactic.

Believe me, I've gotten caught more than once in some grinder's backwash. Heck, I've had quest dialog ruined because what looked like an empty area suddenly swarmed with mobs mid-NPC conversation.

Not fun. Not fun at all.

GarnetFire17 · March 2019

wow, someone needs a chill pill

Michae · March 2019

As for the route "stealing", just be the better man and move to other place. As far as I can tell the other guy may be thinking the same thing of you, that you're harassing them and racing the nodes. Find a better, less frequented route, I have quite a few of them and I rarely have this problem. You can also try running your route in other time than prime. And chill out man.

Gnortranermara · March 2019

Michae wrote: »

As for the route "stealing", just be the better man and move to other place. As far as I can tell the other guy may be thinking the same thing of you, that you're harassing them and racing the nodes. Find a better, less frequented route, I have quite a few of them and I rarely have this problem. You can also try running your route in other time than prime.

I already know what I can do to play the game by myself away from other people. Try following the point of the post. I'm talking about making some tweaks that would allow people to play together in these activities without friction. That's the whole point, isn't it?

coj901 · March 2019

I think you need to go play Skyrim bro