Antisocial game design flaws

Gnortranermara

ESO has far too many design flaws that create opportunities for toxic, trolly behavior and leaves players with no in-game recourse to remedy the problems. Other flaws are simply frustrating and damage the social element of the game in other ways. Here are some I've noticed:

LEECHING
Experience - XP gets split when multiple players hit the same target, leading to players fighting over grind spots when leveling a new character or topping off a skill. Worse, lowbies who can't pull their own weight are able to reduce the gains of other players by leeching. What's the point? Sure, if there's 3+ people then cut XP down to 90%, maybe, but there is no reason to cut it any further than that. The cuts seem to be based on the theory that larger groups would kill things faster and make up the difference, but that's simply not how it works in practice. And why discourage group play??? In practice, XP cutting is intrinsically toxic game design with no beneficial function.
Tel var - Every time I go to IC or sewers, some weasley Nightblade parasite stalks me, creeping around behind me heavy attacking my kills to get Tel var they can't earn for themselves. Then when the enemy shows up, they cloak and run. I have to pull bosses into buildings to solo them to try to keep these pathetic leeches from jumping in after I've done all the work of getting them into execute phase and stealing half my gains. Why split Tel Var at all? Full tel var gains for everyone would make IC more attractive for all kinds of players! Solo, small group, gankers, everybody would be better off if other people from your own team didn't take away your gains. Again, why are you discouraging group play in a social game?

CHAT PROBLEMS: this is a social game with a broken communication system (XB1, probably PS4 too)
Swapping channels - every time we join a group or a BG, we are involuntarily kicked out of guild chat. And we get forced into Area chat after BG's. STOP CHANGING OUR FRIGGIN' CHANNELS!!!! NOBODY WANTS THIS WORTHLESS, BROKEN "FEATURE". I can change it myself if I want to.
Losing channels - when channels swap, especially when we are trying to swap back to the channel you kicked us out of, we often lose voice chat entirely and the channels all disappear. Frankly, everyone responsible should be embarrassed over this. A social MMO company whose primary means of social interaction has been broken FOR YEARS and customer service won't even respond or try to fix this mess. It's shameful.

TOXIC BEHAVIOR
Shared resources nodes - We should have our own nodes, but instead, bad game design allows toxic a-holes to zip up and steal nodes I've already activated due to ZOS' trash servers and lag. I shouldn't have to race someone else's internet connection just to pick up rocks. In fact, why am I racing them at all? Does ZOS think this adds fun to the game? It doesn't. Fighting over nodes with other players is not enjoyable. And then they can refuse to duel?! I should be able to kill a person who takes something I was already picking up. Either give us all our own personal nodes to harvest, or let us slaughter the competition.
Faction jumping - Nobody should be able to enter a campaign on characters of more than one alliance, EVER. The ability to do so allows spying and other vengeful behavior, making it intrinsically toxic.

So, what else have you noticed? In what ways does bad game design make ESO more frustrating, toxic, or otherwise antisocial? And how could ZOS fix it?

Pevey

I agree with all of this except for shared resource nodes. Maybe I agree with you on that, but I’d have to think about it more. Would definitely have an effect on the economy if it worked differently.

Katlefiya

You're post seems pretty antisocial to me, too.

jainiadral

XP awards in this game make no sense in general. Mobs hit harder in delves, public dungeons, and regular dungeons. But killing them awards less XP than overland mobs. On a very basic game design level, this makes no sense. Quest XP rewards are lower than the XP you earn from killing mobs. This leads to the whole grind spot issue in the first place. Sometimes it's next to impossible to complete the actual quests because some jerk is circle-grinding the area.

Grinding mobs is antisocial in and of itself. ZOS should be trying to engineer the game so that it's actively discouraged.

Gnortranermara

jainiadral wrote: »

Grinding mobs is antisocial in and of itself.

Well, true. I guess the more fundamental problem there is that skills have to be leveled after morphing in the first place. Morphing really should be the last step in mastering a skill. Before morphing, sure, you need to use the base skill for a while and master it in order to earn the morphs, but after morphing, why add the arbitrary extra steps? It's not interesting, and the inconvenience of starting back at Level 1 discourages people from trying new builds, especially for players who have limited game time.

jainiadral

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

Grinding mobs is antisocial in and of itself.

Well, true. I guess the more fundamental problem there is that skills have to be leveled after morphing in the first place. Morphing really should be the last step in mastering a skill. Before morphing, sure, you need to use the base skill for a while and master it in order to earn the morphs, but after morphing, why add the arbitrary extra steps? It's not interesting, and the inconvenience of starting back at Level 1 discourages people from trying new builds, especially for players who have limited game time.

Which is also true, alas. I always thought that aspect of the skill system was stupid and pointless. I'm not an endgamer, just a quester so I stick with my initial skills for most if the game.

I wonder if ZOS might consider making special instanced grind arenas for late-game skill leveling. Giving more XP for group dungeon kills could also work-- just to ease pressure on overland areas.

Raammzzaa

So basically it sounds to me like you are mad that you have to share your xp, tel var, nodes, and that ZOS assumed that you would want to communicate with your team in BGs? That about right?

Gnortranermara

Raammzzaa wrote: »

So basically it sounds to me like you are mad that you have to share your xp, tel var, nodes, and that ZOS assumed that you would want to communicate with your team in BGs? That about right?

"Sharing" is a voluntary activity. I'm all for it. This is not "sharing". It's involuntarily forcing people to forfeit the rewards they're fighting for. It's antisocial, toxic design that could be easily fixed and could make the game less toxic and more sociable for everyone. If carrying you didn't cut into my gains, I'd do it happily. But it does, so I'd rather solo. It's one thing to split gains with my friends I grouped with voluntarily, but I don't want parasitic leeches following me around. I shouldn't have to play twice as long to get what I want because you suck, can't get it yourself, and decide to stalk me and take my gains. These are design choices, made by the developer, which make crappy players an unnecessary burden for good players. It is one of many sources of conflict and toxicity between so-called "elites" and "casuals" that should be addressed. We could all get along better, if you weren't a leech. That's not your fault, necessarily, but it is ZOS' and they should fix it.

And nobody talks in random groups. I want to talk to my friends, not some random pugs. And the problem of chat channels breaking in a social MMO after YEARS of player reports should have someone worrying about their job.

jainiadral

Pretty funny, actually, this whole "leech" thing. Because when you flip it around from the other perspective, the CP 810 werewolf leaping on and decimating mobs you need to kill for the actual quest the area is designed for is the leech. Happened to me the other day in Deshaan, when I had to collect some thingie or other from enemies. Said w/w also jumped on and decimated parts of mob groups I'd aggroed but hadn't tagged all the individuals in yet, leeching on my work.

So, yep, I'll "leech" if it's the only way to complete a quest. Too bad max XP per kill can't be shared ambiently like quest completion tasks seem to be. This is the only game I've come across that allows for kill sharing, but doesn't grant full XP to everyone. It's a monumentally stupid design.

Kurat

Lol, if XP was cut down only to 90%. I would get 10 of them wtb skyreach spammers in Craglorn and do carries all day long lol. 50k per run every 5 mins. This game would turn into grind fest then. Its already bad enough. Everytime I'm pugging dungeon I get high cp players pulling only 10k dps and don't know mechs. Alikir dolm grinders.
XP split should remain as is. Just play the game man. Theres more than grinding out there.

Sylvermynx

Bank the Tel Var before you head into Cyrodiil? If it's not on you, it can't be stolen, right?

Tasear

Honestly I am impressed by imperial city gankers. I never see anyone for hours. Even so can buy stone to go back to base too.

Sy1ph5

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Bank the Tel Var before you head into Cyrodiil? If it's not on you, it can't be stolen, right?

You fundamentally misunderstand what he's talking about. If another player tags a mob in IC then the telvar is split with them. The most frustrating version being someone who doesn't help you fight actual enemy players and exists almost purely to cut your TV gain in half.

My personal solution to those players is just to log into a different faction. That way if they try to take TV from me they have to pry it from my corpse.

Gnortranermara

Kurat wrote: »

Just play the game man. Theres more than grinding out there.

Until you change a morph and it takes twice as long to level it for testing. You do realize I'm advocating a change that would cause LESS grinding, right? Less, not more. If everyone got their full XP, they'd be done faster and could get back to doing those other things sooner.

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Bank the Tel Var before you head into Cyrodiil? If it's not on you, it can't be stolen, right?

Wow. No. You misunderstand.

I'm not complaining about players of other factions taking tel var through kills. I'm talking about the fact that tel var is divided up when an NPC is killed to all players involved, instead of giving everyone the full amount.

Sylvermynx

Ah. Yes, totally spaced what you meant. As is probably obvious, I don't pvp. Sorry!

JaZ2091

Sy1ph5 wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Bank the Tel Var before you head into Cyrodiil? If it's not on you, it can't be stolen, right?

You fundamentally misunderstand what he's talking about. If another player tags a mob in IC then the telvar is split with them. The most frustrating version being someone who doesn't help you fight actual enemy players and exists almost purely to cut your TV gain in half.

My personal solution to those players is just to log into a different faction. That way if they try to take TV from me they have to pry it from my corpse.

Anytime were farming tel var and people randomly join and leech, we get people from our guild to swap to different factions and hunt them down.

russelmmendoza

I agree with faction hopping, that is so ill.
1 moment your fighting someone from a different faction, you sack the keep, then you see that player standing inside in the same faction, scoping things out.
I really hate it when opposing players do that.

I wish there were some way to lock out players from faction hoping.

Like, an account can only join one campaign only. Locking account to one campaign should prevent them from faction hopping.

VaranisArano

There are plenty of resource nodes around, unless you are farming with everyone else in the double drop zones for the event. If that's where you are farming, maybe try farming somewhere else where there are less people?


My fortune in ESO is largely from resource farming and fishing. I really don't understand getting snippy over someone beating me to a resource node.

But some people feel strongly about it, I guess. I've gotten more hate tells for racing people to a resource than for anything I've done in PVP. I guess they figure "I saw it first! It's mine!" ought to apply?

Numerikuu

Take a shot every time OP says 'toxic'.

But for real, this 'MMO', despite having its own unique factor, has been one of the most group-discouraging MMO's I've ever played. Sucks man.

Sylvermynx

I don't even bother to "race" to nodes. I'm on satellite.... there's NO RACING possible. So if someone's heading for a node I'd seen, I just shrug and go on my way. There's plenty of nodes around.

jainiadral

I don't bother node-racing anymore, but when you're a total un-horsed n00b just getting started, having some max CP jerk race in and nab the node you desperately need so you can craft yourself some piece of non-obsolete armor is utterly infuriating.

Ah, Stros M'kai, lvl 5 sorc Helena doesn't miss you at all

Sanctum74

Numerikuu wrote: »

Take a shot every time OP says 'toxic'.

But for real, this 'MMO', despite having its own unique factor, has been one of the most group-discouraging MMO's I've ever played. Sucks man.

Sounds like a good drinking game! I just find it funny that it's usually toxic people that complain about others being toxic, like their toxicity is somehow justified, but others isn't

ArchMikem

jainiadral wrote: »

Pretty funny, actually, this whole "leech" thing. Because when you flip it around from the other perspective, the CP 810 werewolf leaping on and decimating mobs you need to kill for the actual quest the area is designed for is the leech. Happened to me the other day in Deshaan, when I had to collect some thingie or other from enemies. Said w/w also jumped on and decimated parts of mob groups I'd aggroed but hadn't tagged all the individuals in yet, leeching on my work.

So, yep, I'll "leech" if it's the only way to complete a quest. Too bad max XP per kill can't be shared ambiently like quest completion tasks seem to be. This is the only game I've come across that allows for kill sharing, but doesn't grant full XP to everyone. It's a monumentally stupid design.

Theres a quest in Grahtood in that southwest corner city where theres two bears, one each in a tower. A bug made them respawn immediately so of course dozens of players were there farming them for drops and xp. Thing is theyre quest mobs and you have to keep them alive a certain amount of time for your npc companion to do something. But with the ten other Elitist leeches downing them in a second i was effectively stuck in my quest. I couldnt progress because of their farm.

Sylvermynx

ArchMikem wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

Pretty funny, actually, this whole "leech" thing. Because when you flip it around from the other perspective, the CP 810 werewolf leaping on and decimating mobs you need to kill for the actual quest the area is designed for is the leech. Happened to me the other day in Deshaan, when I had to collect some thingie or other from enemies. Said w/w also jumped on and decimated parts of mob groups I'd aggroed but hadn't tagged all the individuals in yet, leeching on my work.

So, yep, I'll "leech" if it's the only way to complete a quest. Too bad max XP per kill can't be shared ambiently like quest completion tasks seem to be. This is the only game I've come across that allows for kill sharing, but doesn't grant full XP to everyone. It's a monumentally stupid design.

Theres a quest in Grahtood in that southwest corner city where theres two bears, one each in a tower. A bug made them respawn immediately so of course dozens of players were there farming them for drops and xp. Thing is theyre quest mobs and you have to keep them alive a certain amount of time for your npc companion to do something. But with the ten other Elitist leeches downing them in a second i was effectively stuck in my quest. I couldnt progress because of their farm.

Now THAT is truly painful.

jainiadral

ArchMikem wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

Pretty funny, actually, this whole "leech" thing. Because when you flip it around from the other perspective, the CP 810 werewolf leaping on and decimating mobs you need to kill for the actual quest the area is designed for is the leech. Happened to me the other day in Deshaan, when I had to collect some thingie or other from enemies. Said w/w also jumped on and decimated parts of mob groups I'd aggroed but hadn't tagged all the individuals in yet, leeching on my work.

So, yep, I'll "leech" if it's the only way to complete a quest. Too bad max XP per kill can't be shared ambiently like quest completion tasks seem to be. This is the only game I've come across that allows for kill sharing, but doesn't grant full XP to everyone. It's a monumentally stupid design.

Theres a quest in Grahtood in that southwest corner city where theres two bears, one each in a tower. A bug made them respawn immediately so of course dozens of players were there farming them for drops and xp. Thing is theyre quest mobs and you have to keep them alive a certain amount of time for your npc companion to do something. But with the ten other Elitist leeches downing them in a second i was effectively stuck in my quest. I couldnt progress because of their farm.

GRRRRRRRR. That is so far beyond infuriating--- there are no words... I'd log off for a week... roll a new toon in a different Alliance... Ah, the things we do to stop from yelling expletives into zone chat...

Changing the skill leveling system would be a huge boon to everyone, methinks.

Editing: I remember that quest now! It's almost impossible to complete if you're past lvl 50. I had to de-summon pets and swap to a weapon I had no skil using to keep the bear alive.

Teeba_Shei

Really amazing post. I 100% agree with the exp leeching thing. On the other hand I think the amount of telvar you get should be based on the percent of damage done by your group to the boss. If your group does 5% of the damage and the mob is worth 100 telvar then you get 5 telvar. It really becomes an issue when someone only has to do 3% of the damage to get 50% of the telvar.

The exp thing is rather funny because usually more people reduces the exp down by 66%. This basically removes the point of buying exp scrolls in the crown store because you know someone is likely to destroy the exp gained through their use. Leechers also tend to split up large groups of mobs causing pulls to take longer than normal and award less exp.

Teeba_Shei

Kurat wrote: »

Lol, if XP was cut down only to 90%. I would get 10 of them wtb skyreach spammers in Craglorn and do carries all day long lol. 50k per run every 5 mins. This game would turn into grind fest then. Its already bad enough. Everytime I'm pugging dungeon I get high cp players pulling only 10k dps and don't know mechs. Alikir dolm grinders.
XP split should remain as is. Just play the game man. Theres more than grinding out there.

Also this wouldn't work because 10-24 people would just form a mega group. You could destroy the place almost instantly with that number of players. 20 bad players would be way better than 1 good player carrying. Just bring plenty of soul gems for when you die.

Kulvar

I would like scaling dungeon too.
Something like +50% Health per extra character.
It's annoying when you're more than 4 players as you can't dungeon together.

Slack

What people call toxic nowadays .
Try playing an MMO that has open world pvp im every zone and shared global chat for the whole server

Gnortranermara

Numerikuu wrote: »

Take a shot every time OP says 'toxic'.

But for real, this 'MMO', despite having its own unique factor, has been one of the most group-discouraging MMO's I've ever played. Sucks man.

That's exactly what I mean when I say "toxic". For several in-game activities, the presence of other people diminishes the rewards you get for playing by design. It pits players against each other in ways that make us wish fewer people were playing the game, which of course leads us to play less.

I just think the game would benefit from a review of these antisocial design elements. There's no reason the reward structure for any in-game activity should cause friction between players (other than purposefully designed PvP competition).

Emmagoldman

Ic wasnt designed to be a zone to solo farm. Its meant to be completed in groups, but hasnt had updates in ages leaving the reward minimal

Devs need to find more reasons for people to go there and group.

I can see less loss of telvar being something thatbattracts

Add jewelery traits to the vendor or even a new trait

Allow golden to visit during the week with the option of gold, ap or telvar. This would double the rate of golden and bring back value to the zone. Seeing how many sets are in game, the rate of gold rewards will only get worse.

Add dungeon sets that can be purchased with shards (similar to leeching, sheer venom ect)