Silver_Strider wrote: »

Being complacent and just accepting bad changes will just cause these bad decisions to branch into other areas of the game. So you can go ahead and quit arguing if you want, those of us that actually care about these changes will continue to argue.

You realize that this is a subjective opinion and not objective reasoning? Your claim bad changes is not universal, that's the biggest problem of your argumentation. Sure you can go on about those bad changes but there will be others for whom those changes are good, not bad. That's why I mentioned the "back-and-forth" kind of nature of this discussion.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Altmer had mag regen in 4.3.0 and was neither op nor the bis pve dps race. A much better approach would´ve been to simply look at the value of the mag restore and adjust it as necessary.

Additional Spell/Weapon damage AND sustain is something that is not going to happen as it clearly is against ZOS stated damage vs. sustain races goal. You can have either damage or sustain, not both. Altmer has Spell damage so no sustain for Magicka.

Instead they make Dunmer clearly better by allowing them to have the same damage ouput as orcs in stamina and altmer in magicka, in the same race.

MikaHR wrote: »

Striking the dummy is not PvE.

You don't need stamina regen in 99% of PvE encounters. Boss mechanics are specifically designed to not require more than base stamina regen. Any mechanics that require dodging or breaking free are spread out enough that everyone will have enough stamina when the mechanic arises again.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Striking the dummy is not PvE.

You don't need stamina regen in 99% of PvE encounters. Boss mechanics are specifically designed to not require more than base stamina regen. Any mechanics that require dodging or breaking free are spread out enough that everyone will have enough stamina when the mechanic arises again.

Then go do some actually challenging PvE.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Wrong, health doesnt improve performance....or does anything really.

Stamina regen >>>>>>>>>> health, completely dogding 7-8k damage attack = 7-8x orc "uber utiltiy passive"

Health is one of the most useful PvE stats. It lets you use sustain food with no penalty.

If that was so, everyone would be putting 64 points into health as well as all health glyphs and health sets.

MikaHR wrote: »

Then go do some actually challenging PvE.

If that was so, everyone would be putting 64 points into health as well as all health glyphs and health sets.

I dont know if you are trying to troll or if you are really as ignorant as you let on in this comment.
To your first Point, I cleared every vet hardmode Trial and every vet Arena+flawless conq on a mag character without needing extra stam beyond the base regen. Something challenging done.
To your second Point, you only want to reach a certain Health amount and not go over it, 16k without ebon/toughness is a decent amount to aim for, so for that the orc Health or a set like skoria Comes in Handy.

MikaHR wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Striking the dummy is not PvE.

You don't need stamina regen in 99% of PvE encounters. Boss mechanics are specifically designed to not require more than base stamina regen. Any mechanics that require dodging or breaking free are spread out enough that everyone will have enough stamina when the mechanic arises again.

Then go do some actually challenging PvE.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Wrong, health doesnt improve performance....or does anything really.

Stamina regen >>>>>>>>>> health, completely dogding 7-8k damage attack = 7-8x orc "uber utiltiy passive"

Health is one of the most useful PvE stats. It lets you use sustain food with no penalty.

If that was so, everyone would be putting 64 points into health as well as all health glyphs and health sets.

If you are struggling with stamina in endgame content, it's a L2P issue. Stop holding down sprint and stop spamming dodge roll to get out of damage you can simply walk out of.

As for your second comment... lol.

BattleAxe wrote: »

Why are we still discussing this the changes made it live. If your unhappy with altmer switch to Breton it’s that simple now. Now for future reference remember meta today doesn’t mean meta in a year or two. We will not know for sure but it is a strong and safe assumption ZoS based on feedback and testing done and numbers ZoS were able to pull up themselves allowed the passives to go as they are. 3 more major updates this yr so perhaps invest more time in oh idk maybe class suggestions or perhaps play the game.

ZOS in the past has changed a great number of things that have made it to live servers, and continues to do so even today.

Just look at the recent changes to certain item sets, the changes to the way food and 5 pc set bonus resources interact with cp % modifiers, and the constant tweaking to class skills as examples.

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Why are we still discussing this the changes made it live. If your unhappy with altmer switch to Breton it’s that simple now. Now for future reference remember meta today doesn’t mean meta in a year or two. We will not know for sure but it is a strong and safe assumption ZoS based on feedback and testing done and numbers ZoS were able to pull up themselves allowed the passives to go as they are. 3 more major updates this yr so perhaps invest more time in oh idk maybe class suggestions or perhaps play the game.

Talking About class suggestions seems more useless to me to be honest since tons of suggestions and over 2 years of time havent changed the pve meta of nightblade being the surpreme Overlord be it stam or mag, so yeah, rather talk About race changes that got just shipped out and might get adjusted. Also races might get further tweaked in those 3 Major update, maybe there might even be small changes instead of smashing everything in with a hammer (ok who am i kidding but still one may hope)

The CP changes will require another racial balance pass.

Let's assume the new CP passives nerf sustain. Breton suddenly becomes mandatory for magicka DPS. But what if they buff sustain passives? Then they just as quickly become useless.

The races were balanced around the current CP system. A new system will require ZOS to rework things again (assuming the CP changes are radical).

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Why are we still discussing this the changes made it live. If your unhappy with altmer switch to Breton it’s that simple now. Now for future reference remember meta today doesn’t mean meta in a year or two. We will not know for sure but it is a strong and safe assumption ZoS based on feedback and testing done and numbers ZoS were able to pull up themselves allowed the passives to go as they are. 3 more major updates this yr so perhaps invest more time in oh idk maybe class suggestions or perhaps play the game.

No random internet troll tells me what to talk about. If you don't like other people discussing issues with the product and giving feedback to the company, you should reconsider spending your time on a forum that exists solely for that purpose. Despite all of your best efforts, not you or anybody else has expressed a single sensible or valid argument defending the major design flaws in these changes (Altmer stam regen, Bosmer stealth loss, Argonian deletion, or stupidly OP Orc). The only thing you have accomplished is to prolong and lengthen these threads with a bunch of pointless back-and-forth. Those who actually understand the impacts of these changes and oppose them don't need your approval to discuss it however long we want to, or however long it takes for someone at ZOS to realize they absolutely failed at meeting their own publicly stated dev goals and fix it.

I think you are over exaggerating some of these problems.

All in all, the races are admittedly the closest they have been to balanced in the games entire existence.

The problems I have with the race changes are various lore problems and the fact that this is what appears to be just a band aid fix, and another pass will be required later on down the road.

A more permanent solution would require standardization between the races, and no roughly ~6.5 item set bonuses doesn't count as this. It is far too variable, especially when you take into account certain item sets have more practical value than others (max resources vs resistances, for example). ZOS should have kept specific guidelines in mind while designing each of the races.

If I were to do it, I'd have stuck to these principles:
1. Each race is allotted 3000 maximum resources distributed between stamina magicka or health, with health receiving a 10% increase consistent with all other sources of health in the game.
2. Each race will be granted a small defensive bonus of relatively equal value (races already have this)
3. Each race will be granted a sustain tool for at least one of their resources, with higher offensive races receiving lower sustain and vice versa.
4. Each race will be granted exactly two 2-4 pc item set bonuses copy pasted from existing item sets or derived from mundus/5 pc bonuses consistent with the current balancing (decreasing the number of item set bonuses each race gets and sticking to the bonuses already established in game inherently reduced the room for negotiation in this area)
5. Each race will reflect proper TES lore

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

I think you are over exaggerating some of these problems.

These are the stated dev goals and whether or not they were met for each race:



It is no exaggeration to say that if this were a test, ZOS failed with an abysmal 60% score. This is pathetic, because it is an absurdly simple task. Not only is that demonstrated by your suggestion (which seems to be based off my earlier one), but it is literally true that elementary school children could do a better job than this. I've been coding for over 25 years and I've raised my children coding since they were old enough to sit at a computer. My fifth grader has achieved significantly more complex tasks than this in his Scratch and RPGMaker games. It's truly pathetic that a triple-A gaming company produced such shoddy work.

I both laughed and cried at the Argonian bar.
It hurts my soul.

Arato wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Altmer had mag regen in 4.3.0 and was neither op nor the bis pve dps race. A much better approach would´ve been to simply look at the value of the mag restore and adjust it as necessary.

Additional Spell/Weapon damage AND sustain is something that is not going to happen as it clearly is against ZOS stated damage vs. sustain races goal. You can have either damage or sustain, not both. Altmer has Spell damage so no sustain for Magicka.

Instead they make Dunmer clearly better by allowing them to have the same damage ouput as orcs in stamina and altmer in magicka, in the same race.

But never at the same time so what's the point? Unless you're going hybrid you'll never benefit by it at the same time. And if you chose Altmer you don't expect them to be excellent Stamina DPS, do you? So again, what's the point? If you think Dunmer is better then play Dunmer. Easy as that.

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I both laughed and cried at the Argonian bar.
It hurts my soul.

I know, man. I've got one of each class on console. Most are getting deleted next week.

Why did you even play Argonians then? Clearly not because of their DPS as Magicka or Stamina because that didn't change at all.

So for their resistances and the Resourceful passive that was nerfed a bit? There we have the problem then I guess.

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

I think you are over exaggerating some of these problems.

These are the stated dev goals and whether or not they were met for each race:



It is no exaggeration to say that if this were a test, ZOS failed with an abysmal 60% score. This is pathetic, because it is an absurdly simple task. Not only is that demonstrated by your suggestion (which seems to be based off my earlier one), but it is literally true that elementary school children could do a better job than this. I've been coding for over 25 years and I've raised my children coding since they were old enough to sit at a computer. My fifth grader has achieved significantly more complex tasks than this in his Scratch and RPGMaker games. It's truly pathetic that a triple-A gaming company produced such shoddy work.

At first I thought there was gonna be some logic here seeing a chart but looking closer just a chart of complaints. Races are as of now fairly balanced dps parsing within 1-2k depending if the race has no passives toward the dps whether mag or stam.

What I have yet to see is a good replacement passive since altmer aren’t gonna get main resource sustain back at least for the foreseeable future.

Few suggests I’ve seen were related to damage shields I suggest something similar but after consideration this would make altmer the go to mag dps race reguardless how close in parses races are.

Increase damage shield strength.
Why choose Breton at all then cuz shields are just effectively an increase of health.(also takes ur resistance into account on shields.)

Increase shield duration or reduce cost. Both are essentially sustain boosts.

More max magicka. This would boost damage even more

Effectively there isn’t much your gonna suggest for an altmer that won’t put it ahead of other races.

Also it was said races were balanced around the current cp system interesting notion when they may completely get rid of cp and set up a new progression system which may very well be based around these current racial passives.

ZoS doesn’t always get it right but they have a plan this yr to be a yr long story does it not occur to anyone perhaps the updates and changes will follow this idea and perhaps next up date changes will be made around racial passives.

But I’m an internet troll becuz I simply asked why keep this argument going when it was already stated by another this just gets argued in circles.

Seraphayel wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ZOS in the past has changed a great number of things that have made it to live servers, and continues to do so even today.

Just look at the recent changes to certain item sets, the changes to the way food and 5 pc set bonus resources interact with cp % modifiers, and the constant tweaking to class skills as examples.

They won't change Altmer racials because five guys in the forum are complaining. Please get real. This topic has barely any support, I'm not sure if ZOS even cares at all.

(before it's brought up again: not talking about Bosmer)

You are right, ZOS has a history of ignoring the community in this regard. But when multiple threads on the same topic keep being brought up over, and over, and over again (as I've seen at least a dozen posts regarding the altmer stam sustain between the general, pts, and combat metrics forum boards), it is more likely to catch the attention of ZOS than if nobody is providing feedback at all.

Its pretty similar to how if enough people report the same bug, it's got a greater chance to be fixed, whereas if nobody reports it, it is likely to go un-noticed.

Again, I want to reiterate that as they currently stand, I think the races are fairly well balanced. My concern with this particular passive is that it is cutting into Dunmer's identity as the hybrid elf race.

This passive effectively grants altmer ~2000 max mag, very limited stam utility (+stam sustain), and 258 spell damage.

Dunmer, when specced for magicka, have ~2000 max mag, very limited stam utility (+max stam), and 258 spell damage.

The similarities are apparent.