VaranisArano wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

And since it Has been evaluated in the past, I would not hold my breath waiting for change.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to update everyone on where we are at with the animation prioritization efforts going on right now. At its core, the goal for the change was to make it clear which attacks players were using, while preserving the responsiveness of combat. We’ve made great strides towards this, but there are still a number of cases where things just don’t look or feel right (blocking as an example). As such, we’re going to be rolling back this change in next week's PTS patch (2.3.4) and will not be taking it to the Live megaservers.

We will continue to iterate on the system internally and will roll out the changes when they are ready.

That Dev quote?

"ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
Just wanted to update everyone on where we are at with the animation prioritization efforts going on right now. At its core, the goal for the change was to make it clear which attacks players were using, while preserving the responsiveness of combat. We’ve made great strides towards this, but there are still a number of cases where things just don’t look or feel right (blocking as an example). As such, we’re going to be rolling back this change in next week's PTS patch (2.3.4) and will not be taking it to the Live megaservers.

We will continue to iterate on the system internally and will roll out the changes when they are ready."

Just want to note that was in February 2016.

So if they are working on something to change the animation prioritization that's going to remove animation canceling, we're still waiting, 3 years later.

And in the meantime, they added this. I'd say Light Attack Weaving, at least, is here to stay.

Yeah... you pull out one quote from Feb 2016, but you fail to do your research.
This is from the very next patch in May 2016:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Combat Animation Prioritization
We adjusted the combat animation priority so that you will see impacts and effects for each ability and attack fired when played in rapid succession, without it affecting DPS. Blocking mechanics have been excluded from this change based on feedback from the last PTS testing cycle.

Sharee wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

I can't help but feel that if we couldn't ani cancel, the same people moaning its a thing would be moaning that it wasn't.

Only if you removed it. If it wasnt there in the firstplace, people would think it is normal.

Look at Dark Souls. No animation cancelling there, and no torch-and-pitchfork mob demanding there should be.

I’d say being able to dodge without first returning to a resting position would qualify as “animation canceling”, and having played Bloodborne, those game definitely don’t require you wait through entire recovery animation sequences before they let you dodge.

Now you are twisting the definition of "animation cancelling" to suit your argument.

There is no such thing as landing a light attack, skill, and a bash all in a split second in dark souls, which is the essence of TESO animation cancelling.

Sharee wrote: »

commdt wrote: »

Guys. Animation cancelling do absolutely zero, nill, nothing. My friend tested it on his stam NB a year ago and he did absolutely same 51k parses with and totally without it.

Becauese yes, you can skip animation, but you cant skip global cooldown which is 1 second. Since all animations are below 1 second, you get nothing for skipping them. Just be done with this myth already

Light attacks have their own cooldown. Abilities have their own cooldown. Bashing has its own cooldown.

You can use all three at the same time, LA being cancelled by skill, and skill being cancelled by bash, and see a huge increase in your damage output compared to letting every animation finish.

With all due respect, you do not know what you're talking about.

With all due respect, what i said is exactly how it works. If you disagree, feel free to point out where you think i made a mistake, instead of making blanket statements like "ur wrong".

Aside from the fact that explanations with much detail have already been expressed, i find it exhausting having to constantly repeat myslef. But to be concise.

No one twisted the arguement to suit their needs. Animation canceling is simply about cutting off the recovery animation with an action that is permitted off the GCD, to which the dark souls example was absolutely apt. This discussion can only go somewhere if those involved accept the simple truth that weaving light attacks into each GCD ability use is not animation canceling even though it literally cuts off inconsequential animations.

Bash and light attacks do not in any way shape or form have their own cool downs. You are conflating particular systems and how they effect priorities from a gameplay perspective. .

Light atracks obey the GCD in that they are unusable during the GCD refresh. They simply do not initiate the GCD on use. Its exactly why the devs allow an ability to cut off the animation of a light attack so you can get both actions in per every GCD.

Actions such as bash, block, roll dodge and bar swap, are off the GCD to maintain reactionary freedom and player agency. Bash in particular has a small damage component that allows an additional tick of damage, but is rarely worth a potential stamina (or magicka with frost staff) regen tick loss. And it most definitely does not lead to obscene burst combos that the anti "animation cancel" crowd would try to (and depressingly succeed in) have many believe.

There is no huge damage output, that is hyperbolic nonsense exacerbated by poorly educated individuals who believe they know how the combat system works under the hood. Its these same individuals who think tying damage calculations and ability resolve points to the end of a recovery animation is a conceivable solution, which it is absolutely not for numerous reasons, but at this point im repeating myself for a third time on this thread alone and wont elaborate any further.

"And it most definitely does not lead to obscene burst combos that the anti "animation cancel" crowd would try to (and depressingly succeed in) have many believe. " - The damage of light attack+skill+bash(with all three hitting virtually at the same time thanks to animation cancelling) can be up to 100% higher than the damage of simply using a skill. Surprise attack: 3254 dmg. SA+LA+bash: 6175 dmg. Bash alone increased the damage during this GCD by 20%

"Bash in particular has a small damage component that allows an additional tick of damage, but is rarely worth a potential stamina (or magicka with frost staff) regen tick loss." - increasing your damage output by 20% is definitely worth it. And there is no regen loss, unless you play on console (but thats a console thing, not a bash thing).

"There is no huge damage output, that is hyperbolic nonsense" - right. That's why noone does it.

So you want to get rid of interesting and mindful mechanics in the game? Gotcha.

Also the whole increasing your damage output by 20% is definitely worth it thing? Yeah, just incase you didn't know bash has a stamina cost and unless you are using 1h 1s, it's a pretty hefty one. And even with 1h 1s, it costs quite a bit of stamina still. The la-skill-bash combo is used for BURST when using those extra resources can make the difference between a kill or not. You don't just do this combo 24/7 unless you want to run dry of resources. Whats up with some of you players that just wanna kill more of the skilled and mindful play in the game? Will you not be satisfied until unskilled players are equal in power to skilled players?

SOLUTION: Options > Gameplay > Skill Animations > ON/OFF

Obviously this would break the game for those (In PVP) who like to Animation cancel Ult/S2W/LA/S2W, etc. and demoralize those who are forced to endure the long animations of things called channels...Ehm Ehm Templars...

But hey, ZOS likes a broken game so why not!

Demra wrote: »

Wow its like people cannot read in here..
if you can't improve because you are not in your early twenties any more than no amount of practice is going to help. If you work all day with your hands and they shake a tiny bit at the end of the day than no practice will help. If you have a bit latency than no amount of practice will help...

BS I am 49 and I spend a lot if time on computers and working with my hands.
I can weave light attacks and have been practicing and improving my dps.

I know lots of people over 40 that can light attack weave.

I find most people against it don't want to put the work in to learn and practice it.
They dont want to sit at a dummy for hours practicing. It's too much like work after a day of work.

I totally get it, I was there.

I fought it for a long time but the bottom line is if I want to do certain content, I have to learn it, period.

So I sat down on a weekend and spent 2 hours practicing and I learned what I was doing wrong, corrected it and started to improve.

Also, I don't know anyone that block cancels any more. It's all about light attack weaving now.

Dubhliam wrote: »

Yeah... you pull out one quote from Feb 2016, but you fail to do your research.
This is from the very next patch in May 2016:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Combat Animation Prioritization
We adjusted the combat animation priority so that you will see impacts and effects for each ability and attack fired when played in rapid succession, without it affecting DPS. Blocking mechanics have been excluded from this change based on feedback from the last PTS testing cycle.

Fair enough, i missed that one. Tho it has to be noted what i quoted was from thief guild PTS cycle, while yours is from dark brotherhood cycle, so it wasn't implemented in the same PTS cycle as some here have claimed.

Katahdin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

So you want to get rid of interesting and mindful mechanics in the game? Gotcha.

Inserting a light attack into every gdc regardless of circumstances (because why not, its free damage and takes no time since the animation is cancelled) is the very definition of mindless.

I am not sure about other classes but I'm on a stamblade. Yes, you fire off a light atrack between skills but it's not as mindless as you put it. I have to watch the rotation and certain skills get hit when they are ready (ie relentless proc) and the timing of the ulitmate is important. So you have to think about what you're doing and react accordingly.

You have to watch relentless proc, that is mindful. You have to time ultimate, that is mindful. But inserting a light attack into every GCD? Heck, you could make a macro to do it for you, that's how mindless it is.

Katahdin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

So you want to get rid of interesting and mindful mechanics in the game? Gotcha.

Inserting a light attack into every gdc regardless of circumstances (because why not, its free damage and takes no time since the animation is cancelled) is the very definition of mindless.

I am not sure about other classes but I'm on a stamblade. Yes, you fire off a light atrack between skills but it's not as mindless as you put it. I have to watch the rotation and certain skills get hit when they are ready (ie relentless proc) and the timing of the ulitmate is important. So you have to think about what you're doing and react accordingly.

You have to watch relentless proc, that is mindful. You have to time ultimate, that is mindful. But inserting a light attack into every GCD? Heck, you could make a macro to do it for you, that's how mindless it is.

Its more involved than light attack spamming or spamming one skill constantly

You press the light attack button everytime before pressing the skill button. That's it. I don't know how less involved this could possibly be.

Katahdin wrote: »

Hitting those 11 skills in a certain sequence to maintain dots, inserting the relentless when it's ready, in between other skills, not in a static rotation.

Rotation is not static. Inserting a LA before every skill is.

Sharee wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Hitting those 11 skills in a certain sequence to maintain dots, inserting the relentless when it's ready, in between other skills, not in a static rotation.

Rotation is not static. Inserting a LA before every skill is.

Well maybe it's mindless for you, but timing it correctly and always getting it to go off correctly has not been so simple for me. Wish it was cause I would be doing 45K dps if it was

Sharee wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

So you want to get rid of interesting and mindful mechanics in the game? Gotcha.

Inserting a light attack into every gdc regardless of circumstances (because why not, its free damage and takes no time since the animation is cancelled) is the very definition of mindless.

@Sharee you are free to have the opinion that light attack weaving is the very definition of mindless, but you've yet to address the ways that ZOS is actually encouraging players to make it a core part of their gameplay. Whether you like it or not, ZOS certainly seems to be making better efforts to include Light Attack Weaving in the game and make sure that players know how to do it.

From the most recent Patch Notes:

"Added a Loading Screen Tip: "Once you've begun a light attack, you can immediately activate an ability from your skill bar without interrupting that light attack.""

And from the Level Up Advisor:

For what it's worth, thats more damage control than anything. They are not as much encouraging them as reacting to the very valid complaint that a mechanic with such a great impact on one's performance has been for so long kept completely hidden from new players in any official channels.

If they really embraced the mechanic and wanted to encourage players to use it they would not have waited with the above hints until five years into the game's lifecycle.

It is absolutely not damage control what are you talking about?

The very fabric of this games combat system revolves around the notion of light atracks being weaved into ability use. It has been this way since beta. They did this specifically to address how to incorporate a very important auto attack / white damage but have it be active rather than automated as is the case in countless other mmos that adhere to a GCD to govern combat balance.

There is not bug here that cant be fixed, they are not painting over any issue. And animation canceling most definitely does not inflate or produce any unintended additional damage without a designed price. That is why bashing has a price and deals low damage. Its a defensive action thst players need to have access to in order to react to things without being arbitrarily handicapped.

Sharee wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

So you want to get rid of interesting and mindful mechanics in the game? Gotcha.

Inserting a light attack into every gdc regardless of circumstances (because why not, its free damage and takes no time since the animation is cancelled) is the very definition of mindless.

Sharee you are free to have the opinion that light attack weaving is the very definition of mindless, but you've yet to address the ways that ZOS is actually encouraging players to make it a core part of their gameplay. Whether you like it or not, ZOS certainly seems to be making better efforts to include Light Attack Weaving in the game and make sure that players know how to do it.

From the most recent Patch Notes:

"Added a Loading Screen Tip: "Once you've begun a light attack, you can immediately activate an ability from your skill bar without interrupting that light attack.""

And from the Level Up Advisor:

For what it's worth, thats more damage control than anything. They are not as much encouraging them as reacting to the very valid complaint that a mechanic with such a great impact on one's performance has been for so long kept completely hidden from new players in any official channels.

If they really embraced the mechanic and wanted to encourage players to use it they would not have waited with the above hints until five years into the game's lifecycle.

I totally agree that they waited way too long.

But I don't see where ZOS isn't also encouraging this to become a core part of gameplay both by their development and in teaching players to use it better.

1. Level Up Advisor tip about Light Attack Weaving with Dragonbones DLC.
2. Light attacks buffed with Summerset.
3. Adding sets like Spell Strategist for Murkmire and Relequen for Summerset that proc from light attacks (and heavy, for Relequen, that become the meta for some aspects of damage dealing.
4. New loading screen tip about Light attack Weaving with Wrathstone.

Certainly, I do not see where ZOS has not embraced this mechanic or is encouraging players not to use it. Quite the opposite - or they wouldn't have buffed LA damage with Summerset and added those tips. When I look at the way ZOS is developing light attacks, they and the sets that use them are becoming more powerful while at the same time, ZOS is making an effort to make sure players know how to do light attack weaving.

You can disagree, but if you are going to shrug off ZOS actually attempting to teach players how to play the game as "damage control", I can tell you we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Because where I stand, ESO still doesn't actually explain lots of its core gameplay, from DPS rotations to how to be successful in PVP. Its made strides in the right direction, as with the Skills Advisor which was the first time ZOS bothered to actually point players towards going stamina or magicka depending on their role - years after that became the meta. Holding Light Attack Weaving to a higher standard seems silly to me, since actually ZOS is quite bad about explaining lots of other core aspects of gameplay within the game itself, which hasn't stopped them from developing the game around those core aspects anyways.

This is, I would argue, just one more step in the right direction. ZOS has been making light attack weaving a core part of its gameplay for some time now and is now making sure that players have more hints about how to do it. That's needed. In fact, I'd argue that ZOS needs to go farther with teaching it. Certainly, I see the trend of ZOS moving towards making Light Attack Weaving a fully realized part of the gameplay, even more than it was before, and actually teaching players to use it.