Zos has failed mag users.

ezio45
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Stam is so much better for pvp since murkimire its actually insane.

Resources
Stam (medium or heavy) has to invest in health and stam
Mag has to invest in magic, health and stam

Stam gets to skip put on using magic entirely and are able to focus on building health and stam. This applies to both medium and heavy stam build. They dont have to care about thier off resource pool. Mag only had to invest into 2 resource pools. Now mag has to build into all 3 to be effective. Stam doesnt need magic to cc break or rolldodge. They get to completely ignore that.

Switching from Light/medium to heavy Loses

Stam loses 600-750 weapon damage by not running 5 medium
Mag loses 4884 pen, 2191 crit and ability to use the light armor shield. (So any mag class beside sorc is screwed out of a shield)

Stam losing 600-750 weapon damage is a lot. However they can make that up with ravager or 7th legion.
mag loses 4884 spell pen which is basically major breech and 2191 spell crit which is exactly major prophecy. Neither of those can be made up with 1 or even 2 heavy sets.
Spinners offers that almost that amount of spell pen but its light and you can wear a light and heavy set on body at the same time. You can get 2191 with medusa which is heavy
but it gives you major prophecy not a general buff from it so that doesnt help either as it wont add to your crit it will just cancel out with inner light.

Stam can still rolldodge, it costs more but they still can. Mag cant use shields at all, unless your a sorc, without light.

Good Stam heavy damage sets vers good mag heavy damage sets

stam:
- hundings
- 7th legion
- ravanger
- warriors fury
- Acuity
- Affliction
- (Theres more these are just the best)

Mag:
- Juli
- Shackle (Not even a real damage set)
- acuity

Mag has massively less heavy armor dps sets to pick from than than stam and what they do have isnt as good as the stam options.

Resistance differences from min/max 5-1-1 armor

light:
spell res 11.6k
phys res 9.8k

Medium:
spell 12.3k (700 above light)
phys 11.99k (2.1k above light)

heavy:
spell 16.2k (4.6k above light)
phys 15.8k (6k above light)

This means stam is getting from 700-4.6k more spell resist and 2.1k-6k more physical resist from armor then mag that has to wear light. Light and medium should be 1:1. Mag should also have similar options for heavy armor that again make up for the loses that they get from switching to heavy the same way stam gets to make up for there lost weapon damage with ravaging or 7th legion.

Sustain

Stam can use heavy attacks better than mag. Stams heavy attacks dont take time to launch through the air and makes them easier to avoid. They dont have to even really aim them.


Stam needing impen vs mag needing impen

Both stam (medium) and mag (light) need impen now. They have around the same lvl of survivability, Both being pretty squishy. The difference though is that stam running impen can still get damage from one or both armor sets. They also dont have to invest in all 3 resource pools, which gives them more damage and more sustain also. Mag has to run shackle, thats one damage set down. If your a sorc (other mag classes to most likely) your also using another set for defense or sustain like armor master or lich. Thats 2 sets down. Mag is also going to need tri stat glyphs which gives you less resources but in all 3 pools (cuz mag needs all 3 now, fml). Having mag need to build like stam with impen results in stam and mag with similar survivablity but with mag having less damage then stam.

Yes there were mag that were making glass cannon builds with no stam, no shackle and defensive or sustain set. Zos if you want them to be squishier by all means feel free.
Personally ive played glass cannon builds and they seem squishy enough from the lack of sustain and stam but again feel free to so something about them. Making
mag need impen effected all mag players instead of just the glass cannon builds. Including the ones that were already building for survivabilty, you just forced them to build like tanks but with a lot less survivability and slightly better dmg thanks to jewelry glyph




Zos you forced mag builds to start building like stam with murkimire in addition to the things they already needed but didnt give them any of the perks that come with being stam. Mag doesnt get good heavy sets, they cant make up for the passive they lose by not running 5 light. They have less resistance compared to medium and lose out on far more than stam does runnung heavy. Mag has to worry about building into an extra resource pool that stam doesnt. They cant run 1-2 damage sets like stam can because there mag and not running those sets is how we survive. But hey for losing out on all that we get what is essentially 6-8k health and can rolldodge less....

So zos, you either need to start working on some of the areas mag is lacking in or need to rethink the cap and impen on shields because being a mag toon in pvp right now sucks.
  • Noctus
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    https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Surprise+Attack
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    U TELL ME. we magblades have been screwed for a long time and just have a look at how they have access to major defile... any stamina user can go for sword board and bow to have that.
    Edited by Noctus on February 24, 2019 10:46PM
  • Sheezabeast
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    You forget how many pvpers are classes that use stam and mag. Like Stam DK or Stam Warden and Stam NB. DK shield, Volatile Armor, DK wings...NB cloak......to name a few of them. Many Stam characters rely on tristat glyphs and Shacklebreaker. Need to have at least 15k mag or more on Stam builds.

    While mag needs help still, this is yet another over exaggeration and Sorc is not dead.
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  • lokulin
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    I am not a big PvPer but I have definitely noticed that I can survive longer and get more kills in both Cyrodiil and BGs by simply taking in my stamsorc compared to when it was a magsorc. The greater damage mitigation from wearing medium armour, the bigger stamina pool to block, break free, sprint and dodge means I don't have to spec in to magicka at all. I don't even really need to change my gear or skill bar setup to be somewhat effective. On top of this I don't have to worry about negates.

    Compare this to my magsorc, I was very squishy, constantly out of stamina from breaking cc and not being able to attack half the time as I was having to get out of negates or build distance to remove pressure.

    All this is to say that I pretty much agree that since murkmure and the shield nerfs magicka users (at least magsorcs) have a rougher time compared to stamina users. They are definitely less fun to play in PvP. I might even go as far to say they are less fun to play in PvE as well.
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  • TequilaFire
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    Well you can go Altmer now. ;)
  • ezio45
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    You forget how many pvpers are classes that use stam and mag. Like Stam DK or Stam Warden and Stam NB. DK shield, Volatile Armor, DK wings...NB cloak......to name a few of them. Many Stam characters rely on tristat glyphs and Shacklebreaker. Need to have at least 15k mag or more on Stam builds.

    While mag needs help still, this is yet another over exaggeration and Sorc is not dead.

    my stamden is doing fine with 0 mag help. dont have a stam nightblade but my friend with one focuses of using stealth instead of cloak and does well.

    mag on a stam toon might be nice for some build options but its not a need for the builds. on mag if you dont have enough stam it directly will result in you getting killed
  • WuffyCerulei
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    Yeah, I'm squishier than a heavy armor user, but I also have 20 times better sustain than them. With Boundless Storm and Bloodspawn, I easily get over 20k resists. And don't forget CP.
    "Buzz Lightyear toy isle shot" Stormcalling/Animal Companions/Assassination PVP build hater

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  • Rungar
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    They just gave you the Altmer.......

  • siddique
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    My MagSorc is a killing machine as far as BGs are concerned and even pve. However, he never has any stamina, so one CC and he's dead. I am hoping the new racial changes to High Elves will help him a bit in this regard.
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  • CyrusArya
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    Completely and utterly untrue. Magicka builds are in a pretty great place and have been since Summerset. Both Light magicka and Heavy Stam make for extremely competitive meta builds. The only playstyle that is actually slightly behind atm is Medium Stamina on non-nightblade classes.
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  • ezio45
    ezio45
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    Yeah, I'm squishier than a heavy armor user, but I also have 20 times better sustain than them. With Boundless Storm and Bloodspawn, I easily get over 20k resists. And don't forget CP.

    do you really tho? is your sustain on a light mag toon that much better than than a heavy stam toon? cuz mine isnt. im always out of mag on my magsorc with a sustain set and my stamsorc and stamden are always fine. i mean ya i run out of stam but nowhere close to how much i have to heavy attack on my magsorc. and those heavy attacks on my stam sorc and stamden are easier for my rotation then on my magsorc or my magblade.


    and bloodspawn you cant guarantee up time on
  • moses1763
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    oh my goodness I should have paid more attention to Math in School; never knew a few percentage points could do so much damage...

    I will be glad when its said and done so all this doom and gloom hanging over the forums like a storm about to break is over and we find its not as bad as all that.

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  • ezio45
    ezio45
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    CyrusArya wrote: »
    Completely and utterly untrue. Magicka builds are in a pretty great place and have been since Summerset. Both Light magicka and Heavy Stam make for extremely competitive meta builds. The only playstyle that is actually slightly behind atm is Medium Stamina on non-nightblade classes.

    my magsorc and magblade would disagree.....
  • CyrusArya
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    ezio45 wrote: »

    my magsorc and magblade would disagree.....

    My Sorc would not. Imo magicka Sorcerer is one of the strongest classes in the game period, and will be even more powerful come tomorrow.
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  • ruikkarikun
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    Also what about monster sets. There are a lot for stam with stam regen first bonus, and how many we have for magicka with magicka recovery?
  • coj901
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    I play all mag except for a stamplar that I switched over just to see. I have no problem being tanky on any of my mag toons. Just gotta figure out a build. Protective jewelry is cool.
  • ezio45
    ezio45
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    Also what about monster sets. There are a lot for stam with stam regen first bonus, and how many we have for magicka with magicka recovery?

    Think like 2 of the top of my head. Could be completely wrong. There arnt many tho
  • Ratzkifal
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    Okay... but mag can effectively dps from range with unblockable and undodgeable skills. Mag can be out of magicka and still dodgeroll/breakfree, which stamina can't. Once they are out of resource, they are out.

    Mag builds also have Elf Bane, Rattlecage and Kagrenac's which are valid options although situational and not as potent, but they provide better sustain on heavy than Hunding's, Ravager and 7th Legion would, which allows you to invest into spell damage on your jewelry instead of regen thus making up for it. Stamina builds that use heavy sets need regen on jewelry to effectively use those sets.

    Also Acuity can be used by magicka builds with the same effectiveness if not greater. The other sets you listed all have some sort of proc condition with a time limited effect (apart from Hundings which identical to Julianos) while the magicka sets don't have these conditions and keep their power constantly high.
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  • D0PAMINE
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    I use magicka on my Stam Builds A LOT in PvP. All my gear has tri glyphs.
  • thankyourat
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    That's too much of a broad statement to make in a game like ESO that has so many builds variations and ways to play the game. Take mag sorc for example in the 1v1 community the class is incredibly weak, but it's actually one of the best classes for cyrodiil if you have the skill to pull it off. Magblade is pretty weak for both 1v1 and cyrodiil right now. But Magden and magplar Excel at everything at the moment. You also have classes like stamsorc that I would say are under performing. So it really just depends on the class and the situation you find yourself in.
  • lokulin
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    I think once again you are seeing skilled, veteran players not seeing the point in this thread that for casual or less skilled players stamina out strips magicka for ease of use in PvP.

    I think this post isn't about "if you are skilled you can make it work" or "if you are skilled you can be one of the best classes" or "if you spend heaps of time you can put together a good build", it is about that on average stamina outstrips magicka for utility, especially if you are trying to get in to PvP. The learning curve is already steep enough and the way magicka is at the moment I can just see a lot of magicka using PvE players being totally put off by ESO PvP.
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  • JobooAGS
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    You forgot cost reductions and regen for both and weapon crit for med armor

    Also you lose out on a burst heal unless you are a dk with wings, a warden with mushrooms or a nb with dark cloak (no invis)
    Edited by JobooAGS on February 25, 2019 1:44AM
  • ecru
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    You forgot cost reductions and regen for both and weapon crit for med armor

    this. there is a huge difference in sustain with and without the cost reduction.
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  • JobooAGS
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    Templar also has a class shield, alhough it is capped at 30% of your max hp (and not 50% like hardened) it gets better when people are near you.

    However, magicka needs some more heavy options
  • thankyourat
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    lokulin wrote: »
    I think once again you are seeing skilled, veteran players not seeing the point in this thread that for casual or less skilled players stamina out strips magicka for ease of use in PvP.

    I think this post isn't about "if you are skilled you can make it work" or "if you are skilled you can be one of the best classes" or "if you spend heaps of time you can put together a good build", it is about that on average stamina outstrips magicka for utility, especially if you are trying to get in to PvP. The learning curve is already steep enough and the way magicka is at the moment I can just see a lot of magicka using PvE players being totally put off by ESO PvP.

    I'm not so sure about that though because magplar and Magden are both very simple to use while being 2 of The most effective classes in the game. It's really going to depend on what class you are playing. You can't really say stamina overall is easier to play or more effective. The only magicka classes with a steep learning curve are mag sorc and magblade. But because two classes are difficult to play you can't say all magicka is difficult
  • Sanctum74
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    Mag nb could use some love, but all the other mag classes are doing just fine and are competitive with stam classes.
  • CyrusArya
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    That's too much of a broad statement to make in a game like ESO that has so many builds variations and ways to play the game. Take mag sorc for example in the 1v1 community the class is incredibly weak, but it's actually one of the best classes for cyrodiil if you have the skill to pull it off. Magblade is pretty weak for both 1v1 and cyrodiil right now. But Magden and magplar Excel at everything at the moment. You also have classes like stamsorc that I would say are under performing. So it really just depends on the class and the situation you find yourself in.

    Don’t really agree with your assessments at all. Mag Sorc is extremely strong 1v1, as is magblade. Definitely the top magicka dueling specs alongside DK if played right. Magplar and Magden can be powerful as well, but hardly excel at everything. With extensive experience on both Magplar and Sorc, I’d have to say Sorc is considerably stronger for both 1v1 and solo play.

    But bare in mind balance is different between PC and Console. On console, the strength of Templar and Warden is artificially inflated because a gampad with joysticks seriously cripples precision of movement.
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  • ezio45
    ezio45
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Okay... but mag can effectively dps from range with unblockable and undodgeable skills. Mag can be out of magicka and still dodgeroll/breakfree, which stamina can't. Once they are out of resource, they are out.

    Mag builds also have Elf Bane, Rattlecage and Kagrenac's which are valid options although situational and not as potent, but they provide better sustain on heavy than Hunding's, Ravager and 7th Legion would, which allows you to invest into spell damage on your jewelry instead of regen thus making up for it. Stamina builds that use heavy sets need regen on jewelry to effectively use those sets.

    Also Acuity can be used by magicka builds with the same effectiveness if not greater. The other sets you listed all have some sort of proc condition with a time limited effect (apart from Hundings which identical to Julianos) while the magicka sets don't have these conditions and keep their power constantly high.

    I wouldn't list elfbane as a good set, it's use is extremely limited to maybe a zaan build. Rattlecage is pretty useless also with most players getting that buff from ability and therefore doesn't add anything since majors don't stack. It's also a wasted of a 5 pc. For kags it's a good set but it's a support set not dps.

    And I did list acuity as a mag and Stam heavy set.
  • Witar
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    Why wear heavy at all? You can be as tanky in light or medium armor.
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  • ezio45
    ezio45
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    That's too much of a broad statement to make in a game like ESO that has so many builds variations and ways to play the game. Take mag sorc for example in the 1v1 community the class is incredibly weak, but it's actually one of the best classes for cyrodiil if you have the skill to pull it off. Magblade is pretty weak for both 1v1 and cyrodiil right now. But Magden and magplar Excel at everything at the moment. You also have classes like stamsorc that I would say are under performing. So it really just depends on the class and the situation you find yourself in.

    Magsorc only good for cyrodil because you have other players to lower there health for msorc to mag wrath. I wouldn't qualify that as being good at anything but stealing kills. Magblade I'll agree is weak at both. Magplar is pretty solid atm. They and mdk are the 2 mag classes that don't can utilize heavy armor well for a variety of PvP roles. Magden isn't good at anything. Stamden and permatanks are killing it. Stam sorc is pretty weak but there the odd ball. Stam nb, Stam DK, stamden and stamplar are all doing great in pvp
  • ezio45
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    lokulin wrote: »
    I think once again you are seeing skilled, veteran players not seeing the point in this thread that for casual or less skilled players stamina out strips magicka for ease of use in PvP.

    I think this post isn't about "if you are skilled you can make it work" or "if you are skilled you can be one of the best classes" or "if you spend heaps of time you can put together a good build", it is about that on average stamina outstrips magicka for utility, especially if you are trying to get in to PvP. The learning curve is already steep enough and the way magicka is at the moment I can just see a lot of magicka using PvE players being totally put off by ESO PvP.

    Agreed in part. I think Stam definitely had a lower floor ATM. However they also have the tools to have a higher ceiling
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