Zos has failed mag users.

Mayrael

The biggest difference is stamina defensive options vs magicka ones. Magicka has just shields or class specific skills like bolt escape, cloak, BoL, wings etc. because let's be honest resto staff heals are bad as he11.

While stamina has block, dodge (easier to LoS, soft CC immunity) without even worrying about slotting them, then they have heal not tied to equipment, also they can use class defensive skills that magicka relies on just not as often (but skills like bolt escape, cloak, wings when mixed with block and roll dodge create even more powerful mixture - the difference is that without magicka stamina toon have more chances to survive than magicka toon without stamina)

Especially in bad performance environment relying on skills (like magicka is forced most of the time) as a defensive mechanic is crazy. Not only you have to mix it with offense, but also it's dependent on server response, resulting in very delayed and cluncky defense while roll dodge and block are animation canceling techniques that can be used without worrying about GCD. The difference is stunning.



But, we can't balance game around low performance issues. That's why what would be nice IMHO would be changing how break free works so it would use HIGHER resource pool. This would allow both stamina and magicka to fight on even ground when it goes to secondary resource management. Magicka would be able to use roll dodge and block from time to time without worrying about being cc locked, just as stamina can use class skills.

cpuScientist

And besides MagBlade which got nerfed and bugged open world. They also suffer from the uptick in DK and Warden both reflecting/absorbing their Spam/Burst/dot/execute abilities. That's been the main thing for me at least open world. Plus their healing with the loss of healing ward is made more difficult unless you give up cloak. StamBlade far outstrips it and if your post was about the discrepancy between Mag and Stam NIGHTBLADE I think more to all would agree. But magBlades still damn good 1v1 if no wings/absorbs.

Sorc main and they are just fine getting buffed nicely today too. Are there some minor things I'd like changed YES I'd like the damage back on break for rune cage for one and a few other things. But even without it's fiiiiiiiiiiine. The only defense set I wear is chudan. And now I won't need tried food if I switch to dunmer. 12k is the minimum I run with and that would put me nicely at 14 but need to see the sustain of high elf first. Just as good as Stam counterparts except in bombing.

MagPlar has won legend duel tourneys. They are great. Better than their Stam counterparts in my honest opinion. They suffer 1vX in BG only and then only if the team is the usual coordinated warden team that bursts through block. Open world it's whatever. MagPlar is great.

MagDen as I said above post AMAZIN. 1v1 if you can use bear damn near unkillable if not still good. Can solo bomb throw on proxy northern/perma and blow shi* up. Fantastic BG and Cyro. All around good but not 'tippy top' 1v1. Just as good as it's stam counterpart imo..

MagDK amazing 1v1 can suffer 1vX purely solo I think this is the weakest. But with 1 person with them aka duo I think they are one of the best in duo groups. Or small man. In BG they are oppressive with roots and reflects and really shine here. I've seen a friend who was out punching bag get good in BG using his dk. Like unbelievable was so bad and now so good. But yeah whatever. But I will give that the StamDK is superior in every aspect, except maybe just spamming roots and crap.

Nerouyn

ezio45 wrote: »

ok maybe im wrong on that. deleted my magden during murkimire pts but if players have made magden good, more power too them.

As you can see from cpu's comment apparently some people think they suck in PvE. I really can't understand how. Maybe they're using Dive / Screaming Cliff Racer. That thing's a major magicka ***. Rarely useful if you desperately need to burn something down fast but generally not worth using or even slotting IMO. And tedious. Who wants to constantly spam a single ability like that?

I've also been playing my sorc recently and he has a lot more skill points, passives etc. I've found them to be comparably kick arse. If anything the warden is a little better. Except against bosses my warden rarely needs to heal himself. My sorc does need the matriarch heal more frequently.

Scarpion

I'm not sure if this is serious or not. For damage dealers in groups, for sure stamina with steel tornado is BiS. But for everything else, magicka beats stamina. In dueling, the last 4+ Legend NA (top dueling guild on NA led by class rep Kena) has been won by magicka builds. Granted stamina nightblade, if we're talking individual classes, is top dog and has been since thieves guild/dark brotherhood (not including summerset because of the terror that was rune cage), magicka has certainly not been failed. Magicka needs buffs for group DD setups, and stamina offers very little utility/support wise. These are weaknesses that have always been there. In fact before people realised the power of steel tornado in group play, magicka dominated the DD spots too thanks to the ultis at their disposal and the harmony trait.

kypranb14_ESO

ezio45 wrote: »

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Stam is so much better for pvp since murkimire its actually insane.

Resources
Stam (medium or heavy) has to invest in health and stam
Mag has to invest in magic, health and stam

Stam gets to skip put on using magic entirely and are able to focus on building health and stam. This applies to both medium and heavy stam build. They dont have to care about thier off resource pool. Mag only had to invest into 2 resource pools. Now mag has to build into all 3 to be effective. Stam doesnt need magic to cc break or rolldodge. They get to completely ignore that.

Switching from Light/medium to heavy Loses

Stam loses 600-750 weapon damage by not running 5 medium
Mag loses 4884 pen, 2191 crit and ability to use the light armor shield. (So any mag class beside sorc is screwed out of a shield)

Stam losing 600-750 weapon damage is a lot. However they can make that up with ravager or 7th legion.
mag loses 4884 spell pen which is basically major breech and 2191 spell crit which is exactly major prophecy. Neither of those can be made up with 1 or even 2 heavy sets.
Spinners offers that almost that amount of spell pen but its light and you can wear a light and heavy set on body at the same time. You can get 2191 with medusa which is heavy
but it gives you major prophecy not a general buff from it so that doesnt help either as it wont add to your crit it will just cancel out with inner light.

Stam can still rolldodge, it costs more but they still can. Mag cant use shields at all, unless your a sorc, without light.

Good Stam heavy damage sets vers good mag heavy damage sets

stam:
- hundings
- 7th legion
- ravanger
- warriors fury
- Acuity
- Affliction
- (Theres more these are just the best)

Mag:
- Juli
- Shackle (Not even a real damage set)
- acuity

Mag has massively less heavy armor dps sets to pick from than than stam and what they do have isnt as good as the stam options.

Resistance differences from min/max 5-1-1 armor

light:
spell res 11.6k
phys res 9.8k

Medium:
spell 12.3k (700 above light)
phys 11.99k (2.1k above light)

heavy:
spell 16.2k (4.6k above light)
phys 15.8k (6k above light)

This means stam is getting from 700-4.6k more spell resist and 2.1k-6k more physical resist from armor then mag that has to wear light. Light and medium should be 1:1. Mag should also have similar options for heavy armor that again make up for the loses that they get from switching to heavy the same way stam gets to make up for there lost weapon damage with ravaging or 7th legion.

Sustain

Stam can use heavy attacks better than mag. Stams heavy attacks dont take time to launch through the air and makes them easier to avoid. They dont have to even really aim them.


Stam needing impen vs mag needing impen

Both stam (medium) and mag (light) need impen now. They have around the same lvl of survivability, Both being pretty squishy. The difference though is that stam running impen can still get damage from one or both armor sets. They also dont have to invest in all 3 resource pools, which gives them more damage and more sustain also. Mag has to run shackle, thats one damage set down. If your a sorc (other mag classes to most likely) your also using another set for defense or sustain like armor master or lich. Thats 2 sets down. Mag is also going to need tri stat glyphs which gives you less resources but in all 3 pools (cuz mag needs all 3 now, fml). Having mag need to build like stam with impen results in stam and mag with similar survivablity but with mag having less damage then stam.

Yes there were mag that were making glass cannon builds with no stam, no shackle and defensive or sustain set. Zos if you want them to be squishier by all means feel free.
Personally ive played glass cannon builds and they seem squishy enough from the lack of sustain and stam but again feel free to so something about them. Making
mag need impen effected all mag players instead of just the glass cannon builds. Including the ones that were already building for survivabilty, you just forced them to build like tanks but with a lot less survivability and slightly better dmg thanks to jewelry glyph




Zos you forced mag builds to start building like stam with murkimire in addition to the things they already needed but didnt give them any of the perks that come with being stam. Mag doesnt get good heavy sets, they cant make up for the passive they lose by not running 5 light. They have less resistance compared to medium and lose out on far more than stam does runnung heavy. Mag has to worry about building into an extra resource pool that stam doesnt. They cant run 1-2 damage sets like stam can because there mag and not running those sets is how we survive. But hey for losing out on all that we get what is essentially 6-8k health and can rolldodge less....

So zos, you either need to start working on some of the areas mag is lacking in or need to rethink the cap and impen on shields because being a mag toon in pvp right now sucks.

Medusa gives Minor Force, not Major Prophecy, and therefore does not grant 2191 Spell Critical. You were right about it being a heavy armor set though.

My bad confused it with rattlecage

Rattlecage still doesn't give Major Prophecy, it gives Major Sorcery granting 20% extra spell damage...

cpuScientist

Nerouyn wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

ok maybe im wrong on that. deleted my magden during murkimire pts but if players have made magden good, more power too them.

As you can see from cpu's comment apparently some people think they suck in PvE. I really can't understand how. Maybe they're using Dive / Screaming Cliff Racer. That thing's a major magicka ***. Rarely useful if you desperately need to burn something down fast but generally not worth using or even slotting IMO. And tedious. Who wants to constantly spam a single ability like that?

I've also been playing my sorc recently and he has a lot more skill points, passives etc. I've found them to be comparably kick arse. If anything the warden is a little better. Except against bosses my warden rarely needs to heal himself. My sorc does need the matriarch heal more frequently.

MagDen simply can't hit the same numbers yes I do use shalk and racer. It is how their best DPS is achieved. And they gave probably the best or damn near best sustain. I was simply replying to the fellow who said magDens are seen as a joke, but that was only in pve that people say that for. And they are wrong it's not a joke it's just the worst but only slightly, there is always going to be a worst and unfortunately it's magDen. The real imho worst part about magDen is it's best DPS is achieved with a single Target ultimate. When you could just bring a magBlade or stamBlade if you wanted pure single Target. But they simply get the lowest bot by a ton but lowest is lowest. And there is nothing in their kit PvE wise that makes them better than anything else for any situation. Except minor toughness which is given by a healer. That's all the plain truth. They get high enough for any content except too raid score runs.

WoppaBoem

Stop about magden this topic is anything but about a very spefic setup it is stam versus magicka, thank you.

cpuScientist

Scarpion wrote: »

I'm not sure if this is serious or not. For damage dealers in groups, for sure stamina with steel tornado is BiS. But for everything else, magicka beats stamina. In dueling, the last 4+ Legend NA (top dueling guild on NA led by class rep Kena) has been won by magicka builds. Granted stamina nightblade, if we're talking individual classes, is top dog and has been since thieves guild/dark brotherhood (not including summerset because of the terror that was rune cage), magicka has certainly not been failed. Magicka needs buffs for group DD setups, and stamina offers very little utility/support wise. These are weaknesses that have always been there. In fact before people realised the power of steel tornado in group play, magicka dominated the DD spots too thanks to the ultis at their disposal and the harmony trait.

Yeah this more or less. Everythings fiiiiiiiiiiine. Some things need changing sure some things need to go like earthgore time-stop crap like that but for the most part everything's fiiiiiiiiiiine. Fix shade for magBlades and do something with healing ward. But everything is truly nice and fine. Balanced 100% no but IMHO close as it's ever been. Since Morrowind tore up the joint.

Brrrofski

WoppaBoem wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

The only magica class which is kinda meh right now is magica nightblade. That is far from terrible, just needs more skill to play. The other magica classes are all pretty strong at the moment. I don't see your complaint to be honest.

I use Tri stat glyphs or shackle breaker on a lot of stam build LDS because you do need magica sustain. I use blue drink on a stamblade be side magica is that important. There are plenty of ways to bulk up stam on a mag character too without using Tri Stat food. Tri stat glyphs, shackle, amberplasm, bright throat with that max stat drink.

DK has helping hands
Sorc can use dark deal
Nightblade can use syphoning
Magplar has repent/rune

Altmers next patch will be good for stam sustain too.

The meta is very clear and its everywhere. Fury and 7th legion stamwarden no need to put anything in mag. There are some stam builds that extra magica is nice to have but if you have fury and 7th procced up, 7th gives heals, vigor with be very powerfull and keeping ice fortress up isn't hard with no investment in magicka.

That magicka invested stam builds exist does not mean this is the standard, which is for magicka users with stam otherwise you will not be any good as you get killed on the second CC.

The problem there is two sets though, not every stamina class.

And on a non cheese spin to win shalks dB warden group build you're going to use frost cloak, living trellis and crystallised shield AT LEAST. Plus bird of prey for mobility.

Jeremy

ezio45 wrote: »

Stam is so much better for pvp since murkimire its actually insane.

Resources
Stam (medium or heavy) has to invest in health and stam
Mag has to invest in magic, health and stam

Stam gets to skip put on using magic entirely and are able to focus on building health and stam. This applies to both medium and heavy stam build. They dont have to care about thier off resource pool. Mag only had to invest into 2 resource pools. Now mag has to build into all 3 to be effective. Stam doesnt need magic to cc break or rolldodge. They get to completely ignore that.

Switching from Light/medium to heavy Loses

Stam loses 600-750 weapon damage by not running 5 medium
Mag loses 4884 pen, 2191 crit and ability to use the light armor shield. (So any mag class beside sorc is screwed out of a shield)

Stam losing 600-750 weapon damage is a lot. However they can make that up with ravager or 7th legion.
mag loses 4884 spell pen which is basically major breech and 2191 spell crit which is exactly major prophecy. Neither of those can be made up with 1 or even 2 heavy sets.
Spinners offers that almost that amount of spell pen but its light and you can wear a light and heavy set on body at the same time. You can get 2191 with medusa which is heavy
but it gives you major prophecy not a general buff from it so that doesnt help either as it wont add to your crit it will just cancel out with inner light.

Stam can still rolldodge, it costs more but they still can. Mag cant use shields at all, unless your a sorc, without light.

Good Stam heavy damage sets vers good mag heavy damage sets

stam:
- hundings
- 7th legion
- ravanger
- warriors fury
- Acuity
- Affliction
- (Theres more these are just the best)

Mag:
- Juli
- Shackle (Not even a real damage set)
- acuity

Mag has massively less heavy armor dps sets to pick from than than stam and what they do have isnt as good as the stam options.

Resistance differences from min/max 5-1-1 armor

light:
spell res 11.6k
phys res 9.8k

Medium:
spell 12.3k (700 above light)
phys 11.99k (2.1k above light)

heavy:
spell 16.2k (4.6k above light)
phys 15.8k (6k above light)

This means stam is getting from 700-4.6k more spell resist and 2.1k-6k more physical resist from armor then mag that has to wear light. Light and medium should be 1:1. Mag should also have similar options for heavy armor that again make up for the loses that they get from switching to heavy the same way stam gets to make up for there lost weapon damage with ravaging or 7th legion.

Sustain

Stam can use heavy attacks better than mag. Stams heavy attacks dont take time to launch through the air and makes them easier to avoid. They dont have to even really aim them.


Stam needing impen vs mag needing impen

Both stam (medium) and mag (light) need impen now. They have around the same lvl of survivability, Both being pretty squishy. The difference though is that stam running impen can still get damage from one or both armor sets. They also dont have to invest in all 3 resource pools, which gives them more damage and more sustain also. Mag has to run shackle, thats one damage set down. If your a sorc (other mag classes to most likely) your also using another set for defense or sustain like armor master or lich. Thats 2 sets down. Mag is also going to need tri stat glyphs which gives you less resources but in all 3 pools (cuz mag needs all 3 now, fml). Having mag need to build like stam with impen results in stam and mag with similar survivablity but with mag having less damage then stam.

Yes there were mag that were making glass cannon builds with no stam, no shackle and defensive or sustain set. Zos if you want them to be squishier by all means feel free.
Personally ive played glass cannon builds and they seem squishy enough from the lack of sustain and stam but again feel free to so something about them. Making
mag need impen effected all mag players instead of just the glass cannon builds. Including the ones that were already building for survivabilty, you just forced them to build like tanks but with a lot less survivability and slightly better dmg thanks to jewelry glyph




Zos you forced mag builds to start building like stam with murkimire in addition to the things they already needed but didnt give them any of the perks that come with being stam. Mag doesnt get good heavy sets, they cant make up for the passive they lose by not running 5 light. They have less resistance compared to medium and lose out on far more than stam does runnung heavy. Mag has to worry about building into an extra resource pool that stam doesnt. They cant run 1-2 damage sets like stam can because there mag and not running those sets is how we survive. But hey for losing out on all that we get what is essentially 6-8k health and can rolldodge less....

So zos, you either need to start working on some of the areas mag is lacking in or need to rethink the cap and impen on shields because being a mag toon in pvp right now sucks.

I think you make a good point in respect to your initial analysis. Builds that rely entirely on stamina likely have an easier time in PvP since their prime resource gives them access to "break free" which is basically the only way people can live in PvP.

They should really just add a magicka ability that allows players to "break free" and give up trying to save their hybrid idea.

technohic

I would say that stam is in a better spot than magicka and you are right there, but your reasons are completely wrong.

Beffagorn

The amount of bias and wrong information you put in your threads is astounding

This is yet another of your "Buff magsorc" threads. This time you just disguised it to be about all magicka builds to try gather support, seeing that each of these threads you create end up not in the way you wanted.

"Revert update 20" "THIS GAME SUCKS" "Revert Nerfmire" "Le Nerf notes" "Giving up on Sorc". Just to list some of the more incorrect and biased posts you made.

Brrrofski

technohic wrote: »

I would say that stam is in a better spot than magicka and you are right there, but your reasons are completely wrong.

A big part of what makes stam top dog now is how strong bleeds and spin to win are. Like is a 2h/bow DK stronger than a mag DK?

NyassaV

CyrusArya wrote: »

Completely and utterly untrue. Magicka builds are in a pretty great place and have been since Summerset. Both Light magicka and Heavy Stam make for extremely competitive meta builds. The only playstyle that is actually slightly behind atm is Medium Stamina on non-nightblade classes.

As far as I'm concerned summerset is when magicka builds started to fail as that is when more people began to switch to heavy because of the light attack buff

technohic

Brrrofski wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I would say that stam is in a better spot than magicka and you are right there, but your reasons are completely wrong.

A big part of what makes stam top dog now is how strong bleeds and spin to win are. Like is a 2h/bow DK stronger than a mag DK?

That's part.

Having more access to evasion, expedition, root snare immunity even if short now is still there.

A good non-class self heal.

Guards spamming negate.

I just dont agree with the armor argument. OP skipped over some passives in medium to make it look like you give up less than you actually do and glazed over the fact that you get a bigger gain in resists going from light to medium. Was heavily biased, so while I agree with their premise, I find they make it a worse argument.

Aurielle

I can’t take this thread seriously. My poor little magden and magsorc (both of whom wear light armour and use a single shield, by the way):









Look, I get it. I also thought that the shield nerfs would destroy my mag characters. In practice, though? Not really. I die a little more than I used to, but the characters still perform very well at a high level in no-CP (haven’t bothered much with Cyrodiil lately, as BGs are more entertaining). Coordinated premade groups in BGs pose more problems, but they’re just as problematic on my stam characters (if not more so).

Azurya

from about 15 million ESO-gamers only 1,5% plays PvP..................
so what is your point???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

ezio45

.

Azurya wrote: »

from about 15 million ESO-gamers only 1,5% plays PvP..................
so what is your point???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

one of those ignore pvp posts, great

Shantu

Mayrael wrote: »

But, we can't balance game around low performance issues. That's why what would be nice IMHO would be changing how break free works so it would use HIGHER resource pool. This would allow both stamina and magicka to fight on even ground when it goes to secondary resource management. Magicka would be able to use roll dodge and block from time to time without worrying about being cc locked, just as stamina can use class skills.

The OP's post is spot on. The above point is such a no-brainer it makes me wonder what the devs have in their heads sometimes (like maximizing shields for high health, high resistance builds that don't need shields). You can make a mag toon work well in pvp if you don't run, stay away from too much melee action, and stick to ranged damage. Maybe that's what they have in mind, who knows. A mag toon runs 50 meters and it's out of stam, let alone being caught in the stamina sucking stun-fest that pvp is. I would like to see Vigor based off the higher resource pool also as it is basically worthless for mags.

It's too bad the original designers didn't come up with another attribute (like Power, for example) for what are currently stam builds, and just standardize stamina across all builds. Why should it be that a mag toon runs out of breath in 3 seconds? Lugging around all that magic shouldn't give them heart and respiratory issues.