Zos has failed mag users.

Czekoludek

So magicka is weak because light armor passives are too great to lose when you switch to heavy armor? Or that you need to build around 3 resources like stam who also needs to build around HP, magicka and stam (many ppl before me agreed to that)? Or that you need to use shacklebreaker even when every second stamina build uses it for utility? This post is a joke and OP clearly never was good or even played as stamina char. Magicka is worse in bg for sure but in cyro it is good

Vapirko

Idk I play my mag sorc alt for a break and I do really well on it, mobilty issues aside because rn mobilty is a mess all around. There are lots of magicka DKs which are very strong especially 1v1 or as part of a group, Magplar is great this patch from what I hear and well, we all know what Magicka Wardens are up to rn. I gotta say if they buffed magicka in anyway it would just be a mobilty change (and mag NB needs some delicate tuning when it comes to survivability and viability against DK wings). There’s plenty of magicka user produced content on YouTube and Twitch that should demonstrate that it’s still very viable. But obviously lining up a curse, fury, CC, frags is harder for new players than hitting sub assault DBoS and spin to win spam as there is no real timing involved. I think the issue is jsut too much strong AOE damage all around. DBoS imo is balanced becuse it’s a conal AOE that can be dodged or even blocked, same reason I don’t think sub assault is too OP. But you toss spin to win into that and wardens which have way too many good buffs and too much sustain and now it’s OP.

TLDR Let’s be real, if you take stamina wardens and stamina NBs out of the mix I don’t think anyone would be complaining about stamina.

ezio45

JobooAGS wrote: »

You forgot cost reductions and regen for both and weapon crit for med armor

Also you lose out on a burst heal unless you are a dk with wings, a warden with mushrooms or a nb with dark cloak (no invis)

I didn't forget them, I said by not running 5 light and medium. Stam still has access to a little bit of regen reduced cost same as mag and still have a buff to crit. It's less but it's still there

And stams has plenty of great heals. Hell they have access to better heals than msorc. Rally/forward momentum, vigor, bloodthirst, blood craze, crushing weapon. These are all things for the most part that can be used while applying pressure to an opponent as well.

ezio45

JobooAGS wrote: »

Templar also has a class shield, alhough it is capped at 30% of your max hp (and not 50% like hardened) it gets better when people are near you.

However, magicka needs some more heavy options

The difference is that sun shields scales off health. It's not capped by it. Hardened and dampened are capped at 50% but you still have to invest in mag to raise it. It requires pushing into 2 stats vs just 1. That's assuming you go with hardened and dampened (ya ik you pretty much have to because the other morphs are *** now) the other morphs are capped at 40 % again still needing magic as well

Not trying to say that sun shield is a good skill, it's a bad skill. Just saying that the other shields options are only slightly less trash

ezio45

thankyourat wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

I think once again you are seeing skilled, veteran players not seeing the point in this thread that for casual or less skilled players stamina out strips magicka for ease of use in PvP.

I think this post isn't about "if you are skilled you can make it work" or "if you are skilled you can be one of the best classes" or "if you spend heaps of time you can put together a good build", it is about that on average stamina outstrips magicka for utility, especially if you are trying to get in to PvP. The learning curve is already steep enough and the way magicka is at the moment I can just see a lot of magicka using PvE players being totally put off by ESO PvP.

I'm not so sure about that though because magplar and Magden are both very simple to use while being 2 of The most effective classes in the game. It's really going to depend on what class you are playing. You can't really say stamina overall is easier to play or more effective. The only magicka classes with a steep learning curve are mag sorc and magblade. But because two classes are difficult to play you can't say all magicka is difficult

Ok magplar is good. But magden??? Are we playing the same game? That's the class literally everyone agrees is a joke and needs work

The only 2 classes that are effective atm are magplar and mag dk because they can benefit from heavy.

Aurielle

ezio45 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

I think once again you are seeing skilled, veteran players not seeing the point in this thread that for casual or less skilled players stamina out strips magicka for ease of use in PvP.

I think this post isn't about "if you are skilled you can make it work" or "if you are skilled you can be one of the best classes" or "if you spend heaps of time you can put together a good build", it is about that on average stamina outstrips magicka for utility, especially if you are trying to get in to PvP. The learning curve is already steep enough and the way magicka is at the moment I can just see a lot of magicka using PvE players being totally put off by ESO PvP.

I'm not so sure about that though because magplar and Magden are both very simple to use while being 2 of The most effective classes in the game. It's really going to depend on what class you are playing. You can't really say stamina overall is easier to play or more effective. The only magicka classes with a steep learning curve are mag sorc and magblade. But because two classes are difficult to play you can't say all magicka is difficult

Ok magplar is good. But magden??? Are we playing the same game? That's the class literally everyone agrees is a joke and needs work

The only 2 classes that are effective atm are magplar and mag dk because they can benefit from heavy.

Do you not play BGs? Frost magdens are part of the current meta... it is literally one of the easiest and most effective specs in BGs atm.

ezio45

Witar wrote: »

Why wear heavy at all? You can be as tanky in light or medium armor.

No you can't lol you can tie heavy if a light/medium user is using a major ward/resolve buff and the heavy user isn't but your not going to beat tie them if they do the same thing

And ya you can put bloodspawn of light/medium but your losing out on a damage monster set and it doesn't have guaranteed up time

Iskiab

The only problem with magicka classes are the weak restoration staff abilities. DKs have wings so can spec full dps and do well, sorcs have their shield, templar and wardens have good healing class abilities so that just leaves magblades out as the weak class.

Try and spec hybrid and not be a Templar or warden and you’ll see what I mean. Magicka does well but what roles you can play are limited unless you’re a temp or warden.

Sidney

PVE player here. All of this confuses me, but I've never been good at min maxing. I built a set long ago, but haven't played much for the last year and a half. Just getting back in slowly lately and I seem to do well in all situations I've come across except for world bosses solo, which I assume they just can't be solo'd now with 1.7 million hp.

What is wrong with my setup?

5 PC Julianos
1 PC Molag Kena
2 PC Torug's Pact (Looks like it's counting as 3 PC because of my off-hands, even though they aren't in use?)
3 PC Willpower

5 Light, 1 Heavy, 1 Medium. All yellow with yellow enchants.

Stats show as:




Idk but seems to be working for me. While DPSing, my first bar is all DPS items, and second bar is DW with DK survive abilities, like shields, heal, etc, so I don't really seem to die. Just shield up, heal, back to dpsing. With healing, I have 1 shield on main bar then rest heal abilities. Second bar is mostly self shielding/emergency heal plus ground shielding for everyone. I don't run out of stam when having to dodge abilities or anything.

Open to hear what's wrong though because even though your write up is way over my head, it sounds like you know what you're talking about.

ezio45

Czekoludek wrote: »

So magicka is weak because light armor passives are too great to lose when you switch to heavy armor? Or that you need to build around 3 resources like stam who also needs to build around HP, magicka and stam (many ppl before me agreed to that)? Or that you need to use shacklebreaker even when every second stamina build uses it for utility? This post is a joke and OP clearly never was good or even played as stamina char. Magicka is worse in bg for sure but in cyro it is good

No, Stam can make up for those loses with existing sets that are heavy. Not perfectly but close too it. You also don't have to use mag. It might offer benefits but it's not going to kill you as a result of not building into it. And again ya, Stam can use shackle for UTILITY it's something that helps them. They arnt forced to run it

And ya magsorc is great in cyro at mages wrathing enemies other ppl are going to kill anyway, magblade and magden are great at? Dying? Being free app?

ezio45

Aurielle wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

I think once again you are seeing skilled, veteran players not seeing the point in this thread that for casual or less skilled players stamina out strips magicka for ease of use in PvP.

I think this post isn't about "if you are skilled you can make it work" or "if you are skilled you can be one of the best classes" or "if you spend heaps of time you can put together a good build", it is about that on average stamina outstrips magicka for utility, especially if you are trying to get in to PvP. The learning curve is already steep enough and the way magicka is at the moment I can just see a lot of magicka using PvE players being totally put off by ESO PvP.

I'm not so sure about that though because magplar and Magden are both very simple to use while being 2 of The most effective classes in the game. It's really going to depend on what class you are playing. You can't really say stamina overall is easier to play or more effective. The only magicka classes with a steep learning curve are mag sorc and magblade. But because two classes are difficult to play you can't say all magicka is difficult

Ok magplar is good. But magden??? Are we playing the same game? That's the class literally everyone agrees is a joke and needs work

The only 2 classes that are effective atm are magplar and mag dk because they can benefit from heavy.

Do you not play BGs? Frost magdens are part of the current meta... it is literally one of the easiest and most effective specs in BGs atm.

Ya but it's not magden its just perma bombers spamming pulsar...

thankyourat

CyrusArya wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

That's too much of a broad statement to make in a game like ESO that has so many builds variations and ways to play the game. Take mag sorc for example in the 1v1 community the class is incredibly weak, but it's actually one of the best classes for cyrodiil if you have the skill to pull it off. Magblade is pretty weak for both 1v1 and cyrodiil right now. But Magden and magplar Excel at everything at the moment. You also have classes like stamsorc that I would say are under performing. So it really just depends on the class and the situation you find yourself in.

Don’t really agree with your assessments at all. Mag Sorc is extremely strong 1v1, as is magblade. Definitely the top magicka dueling specs alongside DK if played right. Magplar and Magden can be powerful as well, but hardly excel at everything. With extensive experience on both Magplar and Sorc, I’d have to say Sorc is considerably stronger for both 1v1 and solo play.

But bare in mind balance is different between PC and Console. On console, the strength of Templar and Warden is artificially inflated because a gampad with joysticks seriously cripples precision of movement.

The thing about mag sorc and magblade is that their burst in non threatening in my opinion. I don't think it has anything to do with joystick vs keyboard because just last patch mag sorc and magblade were both really good. Magblade was the best dueling class in the game last patch. This patch you have to choose between threatening burst damage and survivability you can't have both on the class at the moment. You really only notice this though in the top 1% of the player base when players are equally skilled and very high level against 99% of the population this won't be a problem and you can kill people if you are wearing utility sets. It's also incredibly easy to predict frags, or assassin's will. What makes magblade and mag sorc weak 1v1 right now is the way you are forced to build isn't really ideal for winning 1v1 fights.

Magplar and Magden are pretty good at everything right now. Magplars weakness is probably 1vX, it's not really bad at 1vX though it just happens to be the weakest aspect of the character. Magden has no weakness currently in my opinion it's the best PvP class in the game at the moment. Best defensive abilities of all the classes making it very tanky. It also has high burst damage that's very difficult to counter that just happenes to be all AOE damage. What really makes Magden good and to a lesser extent magplar is that you can actually build some damage into your build because both classes have decent built in survivability. I agree with you about mag dk it's really good as well.

It's really just the classes that relied heavily on damage shields that are somewhat struggling right now. Overall damage shields are just as strong this patch if not stronger. The problem is to get them to a respectable strength you have to cut your damage too much to do it. Once you equip armor master on your magblade you no longer have the damage to kill another top 1% player if they are in bis min/max gear (something like seventh/fury)

kypranb14_ESO

ezio45 wrote: »

Stam is so much better for pvp since murkimire its actually insane.

Resources
Stam (medium or heavy) has to invest in health and stam
Mag has to invest in magic, health and stam

Stam gets to skip put on using magic entirely and are able to focus on building health and stam. This applies to both medium and heavy stam build. They dont have to care about thier off resource pool. Mag only had to invest into 2 resource pools. Now mag has to build into all 3 to be effective. Stam doesnt need magic to cc break or rolldodge. They get to completely ignore that.

Switching from Light/medium to heavy Loses

Stam loses 600-750 weapon damage by not running 5 medium
Mag loses 4884 pen, 2191 crit and ability to use the light armor shield. (So any mag class beside sorc is screwed out of a shield)

Stam losing 600-750 weapon damage is a lot. However they can make that up with ravager or 7th legion.
mag loses 4884 spell pen which is basically major breech and 2191 spell crit which is exactly major prophecy. Neither of those can be made up with 1 or even 2 heavy sets.
Spinners offers that almost that amount of spell pen but its light and you can wear a light and heavy set on body at the same time. You can get 2191 with medusa which is heavy
but it gives you major prophecy not a general buff from it so that doesnt help either as it wont add to your crit it will just cancel out with inner light.

Stam can still rolldodge, it costs more but they still can. Mag cant use shields at all, unless your a sorc, without light.

Good Stam heavy damage sets vers good mag heavy damage sets

stam:
- hundings
- 7th legion
- ravanger
- warriors fury
- Acuity
- Affliction
- (Theres more these are just the best)

Mag:
- Juli
- Shackle (Not even a real damage set)
- acuity

Mag has massively less heavy armor dps sets to pick from than than stam and what they do have isnt as good as the stam options.

Resistance differences from min/max 5-1-1 armor

light:
spell res 11.6k
phys res 9.8k

Medium:
spell 12.3k (700 above light)
phys 11.99k (2.1k above light)

heavy:
spell 16.2k (4.6k above light)
phys 15.8k (6k above light)

This means stam is getting from 700-4.6k more spell resist and 2.1k-6k more physical resist from armor then mag that has to wear light. Light and medium should be 1:1. Mag should also have similar options for heavy armor that again make up for the loses that they get from switching to heavy the same way stam gets to make up for there lost weapon damage with ravaging or 7th legion.

Sustain

Stam can use heavy attacks better than mag. Stams heavy attacks dont take time to launch through the air and makes them easier to avoid. They dont have to even really aim them.


Stam needing impen vs mag needing impen

Both stam (medium) and mag (light) need impen now. They have around the same lvl of survivability, Both being pretty squishy. The difference though is that stam running impen can still get damage from one or both armor sets. They also dont have to invest in all 3 resource pools, which gives them more damage and more sustain also. Mag has to run shackle, thats one damage set down. If your a sorc (other mag classes to most likely) your also using another set for defense or sustain like armor master or lich. Thats 2 sets down. Mag is also going to need tri stat glyphs which gives you less resources but in all 3 pools (cuz mag needs all 3 now, fml). Having mag need to build like stam with impen results in stam and mag with similar survivablity but with mag having less damage then stam.

Yes there were mag that were making glass cannon builds with no stam, no shackle and defensive or sustain set. Zos if you want them to be squishier by all means feel free.
Personally ive played glass cannon builds and they seem squishy enough from the lack of sustain and stam but again feel free to so something about them. Making
mag need impen effected all mag players instead of just the glass cannon builds. Including the ones that were already building for survivabilty, you just forced them to build like tanks but with a lot less survivability and slightly better dmg thanks to jewelry glyph




Zos you forced mag builds to start building like stam with murkimire in addition to the things they already needed but didnt give them any of the perks that come with being stam. Mag doesnt get good heavy sets, they cant make up for the passive they lose by not running 5 light. They have less resistance compared to medium and lose out on far more than stam does runnung heavy. Mag has to worry about building into an extra resource pool that stam doesnt. They cant run 1-2 damage sets like stam can because there mag and not running those sets is how we survive. But hey for losing out on all that we get what is essentially 6-8k health and can rolldodge less....

So zos, you either need to start working on some of the areas mag is lacking in or need to rethink the cap and impen on shields because being a mag toon in pvp right now sucks.

Medusa gives Minor Force, not Major Prophecy, and therefore does not grant 2191 Spell Critical. You were right about it being a heavy armor set though.

CyrusArya

thankyourat wrote: »

The thing about mag sorc and magblade is that their burst in non threatening in my opinion. I don't think it has anything to do with joystick vs keyboard because just last patch mag sorc and magblade were both really good. Magblade was the best dueling class in the game last patch. This patch you have to choose between threatening burst damage and survivability you can't have both on the class at the moment. You really only notice this though in the top 1% of the player base when players are equally skilled and very high level against 99% of the population this won't be a problem and you can kill people if you are wearing utility sets. It's also incredibly easy to predict frags, or assassin's will. What makes magblade and mag sorc weak 1v1 right now is the way you are forced to build isn't really ideal for winning 1v1 fights.

Magplar and Magden are pretty good at everything right now. Magplars weakness is probably 1vX, it's not really bad at 1vX though it just happens to be the weakest aspect of the character. Magden has no weakness currently in my opinion it's the best PvP class in the game at the moment. Best defensive abilities of all the classes making it very tanky. It also has high burst damage that's very difficult to counter that just happenes to be all AOE damage. What really makes Magden good and to a lesser extent magplar is that you can actually build some damage into your build because both classes have decent built in survivability. I agree with you about mag dk it's really good as well.

It's really just the classes that relied heavily on damage shields that are somewhat struggling right now. Overall damage shields are just as strong this patch if not stronger. The problem is to get them to a respectable strength you have to cut your damage too much to do it. Once you equip armor master on your magblade you no longer have the damage to kill another top 1% player if they are in bis min/max gear (something like seventh/fury)

Sorc and magblade both have plenty burst, and magblade is still a top tier dueling spec if played right- as is sorc. Both definitely stronger 1v1 than Magplar/Magden. I feel like most players just don't know how to build or play either properly this patch. You don't need armor master or a defensive set period. Magblade stuggles a bit more open world though, whereas Sorc can slap on the Matriach and be fine.

My point about controller was more so regarding Templar and Warden. Their strength is exaggerated on console because players cannot properly kite and outmaneuver their damage the way players on PC can.

LittlePinkDot

Im really loving my magDK so far. Weakness to elements, firey grip then fossilize is a great combo to lock down somebody.

Sheezabeast

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Im really loving my magDK so far. Weakness to elements, firey grip then fossilize is a great combo to lock down somebody.

My mag DK is performing well in CP pvp, I’ve never tried her in BGs. She’s Dunmer, using 5 light Fortified Brass, 5 BSW, and 2 Bloodspawn, with back bar Blackrose Resto staff and inferno front bar. I have great sustain and resources, and is tanky yet able to kill people. I feel Mag DK is in a good spot, especially with Breton buff, Breton mag DK gonna be like wearing Seducers for free I might make one.

Girl_Number8

ezio45 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

I think once again you are seeing skilled, veteran players not seeing the point in this thread that for casual or less skilled players stamina out strips magicka for ease of use in PvP.

I think this post isn't about "if you are skilled you can make it work" or "if you are skilled you can be one of the best classes" or "if you spend heaps of time you can put together a good build", it is about that on average stamina outstrips magicka for utility, especially if you are trying to get in to PvP. The learning curve is already steep enough and the way magicka is at the moment I can just see a lot of magicka using PvE players being totally put off by ESO PvP.

I'm not so sure about that though because magplar and Magden are both very simple to use while being 2 of The most effective classes in the game. It's really going to depend on what class you are playing. You can't really say stamina overall is easier to play or more effective. The only magicka classes with a steep learning curve are mag sorc and magblade. But because two classes are difficult to play you can't say all magicka is difficult

Ok magplar is good. But magden??? Are we playing the same game? That's the class literally everyone agrees is a joke and needs work

The only 2 classes that are effective atm are magplar and mag dk because they can benefit from heavy.

Magdens are some evil fun rn in Cp and Non-Cp. Magblade was insanely great last dlc but got nerfed, so it is not the best as an example in this current dlc. The others are fine but Zos does this every now and then where magic classes are stronger and then stamina classes are. Though not by an amount that would make it horrible, it comes down to experience, knowing the classes, and the players skill. You will have certain characters that will need to learn some crafting, be switched to magic or stam, or find peace in being deleted so you can roll something viable every now and then in the long run as you play. Just roll a stamina toon if you feel they are better.

Though imo you are off on your conclusions. As magic classes are still very strong and fun in Murkmire PvP. Yes, there are a lot of stamdens running around in zergs but when it's a zerg what does it really matter. Put sometime into the game it is worth it.

Where Zos failed us was with lag....lag is Op af.

Itzmichi

ezio45 wrote: »

Stam is so much better for pvp since murkimire its actually insane.

Resources
Stam (medium or heavy) has to invest in health and stam
Mag has to invest in magic, health and stam

Stam gets to skip put on using magic entirely and are able to focus on building health and stam. This applies to both medium and heavy stam build. They dont have to care about thier off resource pool. Mag only had to invest into 2 resource pools. Now mag has to build into all 3 to be effective. Stam doesnt need magic to cc break or rolldodge. They get to completely ignore that.

Switching from Light/medium to heavy Loses

Stam loses 600-750 weapon damage by not running 5 medium
Mag loses 4884 pen, 2191 crit and ability to use the light armor shield. (So any mag class beside sorc is screwed out of a shield)

Stam losing 600-750 weapon damage is a lot. However they can make that up with ravager or 7th legion.
mag loses 4884 spell pen which is basically major breech and 2191 spell crit which is exactly major prophecy. Neither of those can be made up with 1 or even 2 heavy sets.
Spinners offers that almost that amount of spell pen but its light and you can wear a light and heavy set on body at the same time. You can get 2191 with medusa which is heavy
but it gives you major prophecy not a general buff from it so that doesnt help either as it wont add to your crit it will just cancel out with inner light.

Stam can still rolldodge, it costs more but they still can. Mag cant use shields at all, unless your a sorc, without light.

Good Stam heavy damage sets vers good mag heavy damage sets

stam:
- hundings
- 7th legion
- ravanger
- warriors fury
- Acuity
- Affliction
- (Theres more these are just the best)

Mag:
- Juli
- Shackle (Not even a real damage set)
- acuity

Mag has massively less heavy armor dps sets to pick from than than stam and what they do have isnt as good as the stam options.

Resistance differences from min/max 5-1-1 armor

light:
spell res 11.6k
phys res 9.8k

Medium:
spell 12.3k (700 above light)
phys 11.99k (2.1k above light)

heavy:
spell 16.2k (4.6k above light)
phys 15.8k (6k above light)

This means stam is getting from 700-4.6k more spell resist and 2.1k-6k more physical resist from armor then mag that has to wear light. Light and medium should be 1:1. Mag should also have similar options for heavy armor that again make up for the loses that they get from switching to heavy the same way stam gets to make up for there lost weapon damage with ravaging or 7th legion.

Sustain

Stam can use heavy attacks better than mag. Stams heavy attacks dont take time to launch through the air and makes them easier to avoid. They dont have to even really aim them.


Stam needing impen vs mag needing impen

Both stam (medium) and mag (light) need impen now. They have around the same lvl of survivability, Both being pretty squishy. The difference though is that stam running impen can still get damage from one or both armor sets. They also dont have to invest in all 3 resource pools, which gives them more damage and more sustain also. Mag has to run shackle, thats one damage set down. If your a sorc (other mag classes to most likely) your also using another set for defense or sustain like armor master or lich. Thats 2 sets down. Mag is also going to need tri stat glyphs which gives you less resources but in all 3 pools (cuz mag needs all 3 now, fml). Having mag need to build like stam with impen results in stam and mag with similar survivablity but with mag having less damage then stam.

Yes there were mag that were making glass cannon builds with no stam, no shackle and defensive or sustain set. Zos if you want them to be squishier by all means feel free.
Personally ive played glass cannon builds and they seem squishy enough from the lack of sustain and stam but again feel free to so something about them. Making
mag need impen effected all mag players instead of just the glass cannon builds. Including the ones that were already building for survivabilty, you just forced them to build like tanks but with a lot less survivability and slightly better dmg thanks to jewelry glyph




Zos you forced mag builds to start building like stam with murkimire in addition to the things they already needed but didnt give them any of the perks that come with being stam. Mag doesnt get good heavy sets, they cant make up for the passive they lose by not running 5 light. They have less resistance compared to medium and lose out on far more than stam does runnung heavy. Mag has to worry about building into an extra resource pool that stam doesnt. They cant run 1-2 damage sets like stam can because there mag and not running those sets is how we survive. But hey for losing out on all that we get what is essentially 6-8k health and can rolldodge less....

So zos, you either need to start working on some of the areas mag is lacking in or need to rethink the cap and impen on shields because being a mag toon in pvp right now sucks.

21349012412042 Magusers strongly disagree.

Slack

I disagree with pretty much everything.
But wonder especially about 1 thing: Why the hell would you use heavy hundings rage????
It's just horrible, the set itself is okay for damage, but in heavy its useless. I mean what do you get? A bit, but hardly noticeable, extra defense and a lot less damage and sustain.

I am really impressed that there is people that still seem to be believe that putting on heavy armor is what makes people so tanky.

ezio45

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Stam is so much better for pvp since murkimire its actually insane.

Resources
Stam (medium or heavy) has to invest in health and stam
Mag has to invest in magic, health and stam

Stam gets to skip put on using magic entirely and are able to focus on building health and stam. This applies to both medium and heavy stam build. They dont have to care about thier off resource pool. Mag only had to invest into 2 resource pools. Now mag has to build into all 3 to be effective. Stam doesnt need magic to cc break or rolldodge. They get to completely ignore that.

Switching from Light/medium to heavy Loses

Stam loses 600-750 weapon damage by not running 5 medium
Mag loses 4884 pen, 2191 crit and ability to use the light armor shield. (So any mag class beside sorc is screwed out of a shield)

Stam losing 600-750 weapon damage is a lot. However they can make that up with ravager or 7th legion.
mag loses 4884 spell pen which is basically major breech and 2191 spell crit which is exactly major prophecy. Neither of those can be made up with 1 or even 2 heavy sets.
Spinners offers that almost that amount of spell pen but its light and you can wear a light and heavy set on body at the same time. You can get 2191 with medusa which is heavy
but it gives you major prophecy not a general buff from it so that doesnt help either as it wont add to your crit it will just cancel out with inner light.

Stam can still rolldodge, it costs more but they still can. Mag cant use shields at all, unless your a sorc, without light.

Good Stam heavy damage sets vers good mag heavy damage sets

stam:
- hundings
- 7th legion
- ravanger
- warriors fury
- Acuity
- Affliction
- (Theres more these are just the best)

Mag:
- Juli
- Shackle (Not even a real damage set)
- acuity

Mag has massively less heavy armor dps sets to pick from than than stam and what they do have isnt as good as the stam options.

Resistance differences from min/max 5-1-1 armor

light:
spell res 11.6k
phys res 9.8k

Medium:
spell 12.3k (700 above light)
phys 11.99k (2.1k above light)

heavy:
spell 16.2k (4.6k above light)
phys 15.8k (6k above light)

This means stam is getting from 700-4.6k more spell resist and 2.1k-6k more physical resist from armor then mag that has to wear light. Light and medium should be 1:1. Mag should also have similar options for heavy armor that again make up for the loses that they get from switching to heavy the same way stam gets to make up for there lost weapon damage with ravaging or 7th legion.

Sustain

Stam can use heavy attacks better than mag. Stams heavy attacks dont take time to launch through the air and makes them easier to avoid. They dont have to even really aim them.


Stam needing impen vs mag needing impen

Both stam (medium) and mag (light) need impen now. They have around the same lvl of survivability, Both being pretty squishy. The difference though is that stam running impen can still get damage from one or both armor sets. They also dont have to invest in all 3 resource pools, which gives them more damage and more sustain also. Mag has to run shackle, thats one damage set down. If your a sorc (other mag classes to most likely) your also using another set for defense or sustain like armor master or lich. Thats 2 sets down. Mag is also going to need tri stat glyphs which gives you less resources but in all 3 pools (cuz mag needs all 3 now, fml). Having mag need to build like stam with impen results in stam and mag with similar survivablity but with mag having less damage then stam.

Yes there were mag that were making glass cannon builds with no stam, no shackle and defensive or sustain set. Zos if you want them to be squishier by all means feel free.
Personally ive played glass cannon builds and they seem squishy enough from the lack of sustain and stam but again feel free to so something about them. Making
mag need impen effected all mag players instead of just the glass cannon builds. Including the ones that were already building for survivabilty, you just forced them to build like tanks but with a lot less survivability and slightly better dmg thanks to jewelry glyph




Zos you forced mag builds to start building like stam with murkimire in addition to the things they already needed but didnt give them any of the perks that come with being stam. Mag doesnt get good heavy sets, they cant make up for the passive they lose by not running 5 light. They have less resistance compared to medium and lose out on far more than stam does runnung heavy. Mag has to worry about building into an extra resource pool that stam doesnt. They cant run 1-2 damage sets like stam can because there mag and not running those sets is how we survive. But hey for losing out on all that we get what is essentially 6-8k health and can rolldodge less....

So zos, you either need to start working on some of the areas mag is lacking in or need to rethink the cap and impen on shields because being a mag toon in pvp right now sucks.

Medusa gives Minor Force, not Major Prophecy, and therefore does not grant 2191 Spell Critical. You were right about it being a heavy armor set though.

My bad confused it with rattlecage

Nerouyn

ezio45 wrote: »

Ok magplar is good. But magden??? Are we playing the same game? That's the class literally everyone agrees is a joke and needs work

I've agreed with nearly everything you've said here, and literally just finished pressing the agree button on a lot of your posts. But I disagree with this.

Magden sucks for variety. With only 4 class magicka damage abilities and 7 in the rest of the game there is no variety. Other classes have 9-11 magicka damage abilities.

They don't suck for power. Even in relatively crappy light armor, with only about 4 points in passives (light armor ones - none in class) I solo'ed Nchuleftingth Public Dungeon including the group event. Never been in before I don't play that much so I'm not like super skilled.

Deep Fissure + Elemental Blockade + Winter's Revenge did 99% of the work. Occasionally I'd throw fetcherflies at something if it didn't die immediately from those 3.

The bear is awesome. While there are problems with the healing line, when solo'ing Living Vines makes me feel invincible. The per second heal from the resto dot (baseline) is 310. Assuming you're being hit constantly, Vines is about double that - 603. When I can't avoid being hit - which admittedly isn't often cos usually I have everything locked down with chills and immobilizes - it's really quite awesome.

WoppaBoem

I agree very much with this post. And my view is also very simple. Both medium and light are getting #*$*## over by the heavy armor damage sets. Take these out of the equation and problem solved.

the heavy damage sets really need to be reworked. They should be equal the amount of weapon damage given versus medium before the mediumpassive 15% more weapon damage but in return are far more tankier.

I find it really disheartening this game offers the same maybe even more damage for heavy armor versus light and medium. I love the game but this fact really bugs me.

Please do not advocate for magicka to have access to same sets, the heavy armor sets need to be nerfed in way they have less damage compared to medium but are more tankier that should be the logical trade-off that now just doesn't exist.

Futher I for one love to have both resources active 1 for damage and 1 for movement this is also the trade-off do I go for mag or stam this is really fine by me.

#nerf7th-Fury

Brrrofski

The only magica class which is kinda meh right now is magica nightblade. That is far from terrible, just needs more skill to play. The other magica classes are all pretty strong at the moment. I don't see your complaint to be honest.

I use Tri stat glyphs or shackle breaker on a lot of stam builds because you do need magica sustain. I use blue drink on a stamblade becausr magica is that important. There are plenty of ways to bulk up stam on a mag character too without using Tri Stat food. Tri stat glyphs, shackle, amberplasm, bright throat with that max stat drink.

DK has helping hands
Sorc can use dark deal
Nightblade can use syphoning
Magplar has repent/rune

Altmers next patch will be good for stam sustain too.

RedTalon

For some reason read the title of this thread in the green arrow voice

Vaerth

ezio45 wrote: »

Stam is so much better for pvp since murkimire its actually insane.

Resources
Stam (medium or heavy) has to invest in health and stam
Mag has to invest in magic, health and stam

Stam gets to skip put on using magic entirely and are able to focus on building health and stam. This applies to both medium and heavy stam build. They dont have to care about thier off resource pool. Mag only had to invest into 2 resource pools. Now mag has to build into all 3 to be effective. Stam doesnt need magic to cc break or rolldodge. They get to completely ignore that.

Switching from Light/medium to heavy Loses

Stam loses 600-750 weapon damage by not running 5 medium
Mag loses 4884 pen, 2191 crit and ability to use the light armor shield. (So any mag class beside sorc is screwed out of a shield)

Stam losing 600-750 weapon damage is a lot. However they can make that up with ravager or 7th legion.
mag loses 4884 spell pen which is basically major breech and 2191 spell crit which is exactly major prophecy. Neither of those can be made up with 1 or even 2 heavy sets.
Spinners offers that almost that amount of spell pen but its light and you can wear a light and heavy set on body at the same time. You can get 2191 with medusa which is heavy
but it gives you major prophecy not a general buff from it so that doesnt help either as it wont add to your crit it will just cancel out with inner light.

Stam can still rolldodge, it costs more but they still can. Mag cant use shields at all, unless your a sorc, without light.

Good Stam heavy damage sets vers good mag heavy damage sets

stam:
- hundings
- 7th legion
- ravanger
- warriors fury
- Acuity
- Affliction
- (Theres more these are just the best)

Mag:
- Juli
- Shackle (Not even a real damage set)
- acuity

Mag has massively less heavy armor dps sets to pick from than than stam and what they do have isnt as good as the stam options.

Resistance differences from min/max 5-1-1 armor

light:
spell res 11.6k
phys res 9.8k

Medium:
spell 12.3k (700 above light)
phys 11.99k (2.1k above light)

heavy:
spell 16.2k (4.6k above light)
phys 15.8k (6k above light)

This means stam is getting from 700-4.6k more spell resist and 2.1k-6k more physical resist from armor then mag that has to wear light. Light and medium should be 1:1. Mag should also have similar options for heavy armor that again make up for the loses that they get from switching to heavy the same way stam gets to make up for there lost weapon damage with ravaging or 7th legion.

Sustain

Stam can use heavy attacks better than mag. Stams heavy attacks dont take time to launch through the air and makes them easier to avoid. They dont have to even really aim them.


Stam needing impen vs mag needing impen

Both stam (medium) and mag (light) need impen now. They have around the same lvl of survivability, Both being pretty squishy. The difference though is that stam running impen can still get damage from one or both armor sets. They also dont have to invest in all 3 resource pools, which gives them more damage and more sustain also. Mag has to run shackle, thats one damage set down. If your a sorc (other mag classes to most likely) your also using another set for defense or sustain like armor master or lich. Thats 2 sets down. Mag is also going to need tri stat glyphs which gives you less resources but in all 3 pools (cuz mag needs all 3 now, fml). Having mag need to build like stam with impen results in stam and mag with similar survivablity but with mag having less damage then stam.

Yes there were mag that were making glass cannon builds with no stam, no shackle and defensive or sustain set. Zos if you want them to be squishier by all means feel free.
Personally ive played glass cannon builds and they seem squishy enough from the lack of sustain and stam but again feel free to so something about them. Making
mag need impen effected all mag players instead of just the glass cannon builds. Including the ones that were already building for survivabilty, you just forced them to build like tanks but with a lot less survivability and slightly better dmg thanks to jewelry glyph




Zos you forced mag builds to start building like stam with murkimire in addition to the things they already needed but didnt give them any of the perks that come with being stam. Mag doesnt get good heavy sets, they cant make up for the passive they lose by not running 5 light. They have less resistance compared to medium and lose out on far more than stam does runnung heavy. Mag has to worry about building into an extra resource pool that stam doesnt. They cant run 1-2 damage sets like stam can because there mag and not running those sets is how we survive. But hey for losing out on all that we get what is essentially 6-8k health and can rolldodge less....

So zos, you either need to start working on some of the areas mag is lacking in or need to rethink the cap and impen on shields because being a mag toon in pvp right now sucks.

Just give me Magicka build without a staff and I am happy, do not care otherwise

WoppaBoem

Brrrofski wrote: »

The only magica class which is kinda meh right now is magica nightblade. That is far from terrible, just needs more skill to play. The other magica classes are all pretty strong at the moment. I don't see your complaint to be honest.

I use Tri stat glyphs or shackle breaker on a lot of stam build LDS because you do need magica sustain. I use blue drink on a stamblade be side magica is that important. There are plenty of ways to bulk up stam on a mag character too without using Tri Stat food. Tri stat glyphs, shackle, amberplasm, bright throat with that max stat drink.

DK has helping hands
Sorc can use dark deal
Nightblade can use syphoning
Magplar has repent/rune

Altmers next patch will be good for stam sustain too.

The meta is very clear and its everywhere. Fury and 7th legion stamwarden no need to put anything in mag. There are some stam builds that extra magica is nice to have but if you have fury and 7th procced up, 7th gives heals, vigor with be very powerfull and keeping ice fortress up isn't hard with no investment in magicka.

That magicka invested stam builds exist does not mean this is the standard, which is for magicka users with stam otherwise you will not be any good as you get killed on the second CC.

ezio45

Nerouyn wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Ok magplar is good. But magden??? Are we playing the same game? That's the class literally everyone agrees is a joke and needs work

I've agreed with nearly everything you've said here, and literally just finished pressing the agree button on a lot of your posts. But I disagree with this.

Magden sucks for variety. With only 4 class magicka damage abilities and 7 in the rest of the game there is no variety. Other classes have 9-11 magicka damage abilities.

They don't suck for power. Even in relatively crappy light armor, with only about 4 points in passives (light armor ones - none in class) I solo'ed Nchuleftingth Public Dungeon including the group event. Never been in before I don't play that much so I'm not like super skilled.

Deep Fissure + Elemental Blockade + Winter's Revenge did 99% of the work. Occasionally I'd throw fetcherflies at something if it didn't die immediately from those 3.

The bear is awesome. While there are problems with the healing line, when solo'ing Living Vines makes me feel invincible. The per second heal from the resto dot (baseline) is 310. Assuming you're being hit constantly, Vines is about double that - 603. When I can't avoid being hit - which admittedly isn't often cos usually I have everything locked down with chills and immobilizes - it's really quite awesome.

ok maybe im wrong on that. deleted my magden during murkimire pts but if players have made magden good, more power too them.

SpiderCultist

Speaking of warden and pve... the only character have I with "Flawless Conqueror" is a magden

cpuScientist

ezio45 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

I think once again you are seeing skilled, veteran players not seeing the point in this thread that for casual or less skilled players stamina out strips magicka for ease of use in PvP.

I think this post isn't about "if you are skilled you can make it work" or "if you are skilled you can be one of the best classes" or "if you spend heaps of time you can put together a good build", it is about that on average stamina outstrips magicka for utility, especially if you are trying to get in to PvP. The learning curve is already steep enough and the way magicka is at the moment I can just see a lot of magicka using PvE players being totally put off by ESO PvP.

I'm not so sure about that though because magplar and Magden are both very simple to use while being 2 of The most effective classes in the game. It's really going to depend on what class you are playing. You can't really say stamina overall is easier to play or more effective. The only magicka classes with a steep learning curve are mag sorc and magblade. But because two classes are difficult to play you can't say all magicka is difficult

Ok magplar is good. But magden??? Are we playing the same game? That's the class literally everyone agrees is a joke and needs work

The only 2 classes that are effective atm are magplar and mag dk because they can benefit from heavy.

MagDen is a joke in PvE. It is darn good PvP. Stupid easy to use, extremely tanky great in groups great solo. Has really great skill options. Corrupting pollen used right is effing OP for instance.

ezio45

cpuScientist wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

I think once again you are seeing skilled, veteran players not seeing the point in this thread that for casual or less skilled players stamina out strips magicka for ease of use in PvP.

I think this post isn't about "if you are skilled you can make it work" or "if you are skilled you can be one of the best classes" or "if you spend heaps of time you can put together a good build", it is about that on average stamina outstrips magicka for utility, especially if you are trying to get in to PvP. The learning curve is already steep enough and the way magicka is at the moment I can just see a lot of magicka using PvE players being totally put off by ESO PvP.

I'm not so sure about that though because magplar and Magden are both very simple to use while being 2 of The most effective classes in the game. It's really going to depend on what class you are playing. You can't really say stamina overall is easier to play or more effective. The only magicka classes with a steep learning curve are mag sorc and magblade. But because two classes are difficult to play you can't say all magicka is difficult

Ok magplar is good. But magden??? Are we playing the same game? That's the class literally everyone agrees is a joke and needs work

The only 2 classes that are effective atm are magplar and mag dk because they can benefit from heavy.

MagDen is a joke in PvE. It is darn good PvP. Stupid easy to use, extremely tanky great in groups great solo. Has really great skill options. Corrupting pollen used right is effing OP for instance.

good to know