Khajiit vs Dunmer

JerryAlder · February 2019

After the latest patch 4.3.3 I feel that the balance between our new hybrid races is a little off. We see dunmer performing better in both mag and stam plus they have bigger max pools which at least for me completely beats the trivial khajit sustain. While many of us feel that dunmer is lacking some identity I like where their damage is at. For khajit not so much... Personally I would like to see khajiit revisited. Possibly reverting the 4.3.3 change.

rafaelcsmaia · February 2019

I'll just leave this here...

dunmer + shadow (258 spell/weapon dmg + 13% crit damage) vs khajiit with apprentice/warrior (238 spell/weapon dmg + 10% crit damage) makes dunmer ALWAYS deal more damage than khajiit, both crit and non crit, while also having more stam/mag

nsmurfer · February 2019

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

I'll just leave this here...

dunmer + shadow (258 spell/weapon dmg + 13% crit damage) vs khajiit with apprentice/warrior (238 spell/weapon dmg + 10% crit damage) makes dunmer ALWAYS deal more damage than khajiit, both crit and non crit, while also having more stam/mag

@Masel @Joy_Division @FeaR Turbo @Checkmath @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_GinaBruno

All consider the fact no build in the game has enough Crit chance to allow Khajiit+Shadow crit damage not becoming redundant.

zaria · February 2019

JerryAlder wrote: »

After the latest patch 4.3.3 I feel that the balance between our new hybrid races is a little off. We see dunmer performing better in both mag and stam plus they have bigger max pools which at least for me completely beats the trivial khajit sustain. While many of us feel that dunmer is lacking some identity I like where their damage is at. For khajit not so much... Personally I would like to see khajiit revisited. Possibly reverting the 4.3.3 change.

Don't think we get that because it makes Khajiit = templar something they want to avoid.
Giving Khajiit more resources or better more sustain to buff them would be an better option.

Kolzki · February 2019

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

I'll just leave this here...

dunmer + shadow (258 spell/weapon dmg + 13% crit damage) vs khajiit with apprentice/warrior (238 spell/weapon dmg + 10% crit damage) makes dunmer ALWAYS deal more damage than khajiit, both crit and non crit, while also having more stam/mag

Those two chars really need to go farm themselves some divines gear

You’re right though, as is being found in dps parses.

susmitds · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

JerryAlder wrote: »

After the latest patch 4.3.3 I feel that the balance between our new hybrid races is a little off. We see dunmer performing better in both mag and stam plus they have bigger max pools which at least for me completely beats the trivial khajit sustain. While many of us feel that dunmer is lacking some identity I like where their damage is at. For khajit not so much... Personally I would like to see khajiit revisited. Possibly reverting the 4.3.3 change.

Don't think we get that because it makes Khajiit = templar something they want to avoid.
Giving Khajiit more resources or better more sustain to buff them would be an better option.

Which is why I think splitting the Crit bonus of Khajiit to both parts of the formula is the way to go. That way CHD bonus of Templar/Shadow/Major Force will be a buff to Crit chance part and a nerf to the Crit damage part of the Khajiit, sort of balancing it out.

grannas211 · February 2019

Buff our furry friends

twing1_ · February 2019

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

I'll just leave this here...

dunmer + shadow (258 spell/weapon dmg + 13% crit damage) vs khajiit with apprentice/warrior (238 spell/weapon dmg + 10% crit damage) makes dunmer ALWAYS deal more damage than khajiit, both crit and non crit, while also having more stam/mag

I wonder what would happen if the Khajit used the thief mundus. It's interesting that this possibility was neglected to be tested.

In true min/max scenarios, not every race can use the exact same gear/mundus/food/cp. This is because, generally speaking, there is a "happy balance" that can be found between different stats (damage, max resources, crit damage, crit chance) in truly min/maxed builds. This is because of diminishing returns. Adding too much of a single stat wouldn't have as much of a benefit as spreading your resources over a variety of different stats that more closely resembles this "happy balance".

Because different races by nature have different stats, it would logically follow then that the different races would need to wear different gear/mundus/food/etc to more closely resemble this "happy balance" of stats that would result in each race's highest dps totals.

Because Khajit by nature have more critical damage to begin with, it seems only natural to me that the thief mundus stone be chosen as a variable to be tested, to rightfully complement this added bonus to critical damage.

I haven't run the numbers myself, but I would wager that giving Khajit the thief mundus would close the gap a bit between these races more than the either the shadow or warrior. This is due to the way critical hit damage and critical hit chance interact with one another.

Perhaps there is some brave soul that would test this?

susmitds · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

I'll just leave this here...

dunmer + shadow (258 spell/weapon dmg + 13% crit damage) vs khajiit with apprentice/warrior (238 spell/weapon dmg + 10% crit damage) makes dunmer ALWAYS deal more damage than khajiit, both crit and non crit, while also having more stam/mag

I wonder what would happen if the Khajit used the thief mundus. It's interesting that this possibility was neglected to be tested.

In true min/max scenarios, not every race can use the exact same gear/mundus/food/cp. This is because, generally speaking, there is a "happy balance" that can be found between different stats (damage, max resources, crit damage, crit chance) in truly min/maxed builds. This is because of diminishing returns. Adding too much of a single stat wouldn't have as much of a benefit as spreading your resources over a variety of different stats that more closely resembles this "happy balance".

Because different races by nature have different stats, it would logically follow then that the different races would need to wear different gear/mundus/food/etc to more closely resemble this "happy balance" of stats that would result in each race's highest dps totals.

Because Khajit by nature have more critical damage to begin with, it seems only natural to me that the thief mundus stone be chosen as a variable to be tested, to rightfully complement this added bonus to critical damage.

I haven't run the numbers myself, but I would wager that giving Khajit the thief mundus would close the gap a bit between these races more than the either the shadow or warrior. This is due to the way critical hit damage and critical hit chance interact with one another.

Perhaps there is some brave soul that would test this?

I actually did test that during the change of Shadow as well on my DPS parses. Thief is by default weaker than Shadow as it is split between healing and damage while Shadow is raw damage.

twing1_ · February 2019

susmitds wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

I'll just leave this here...

dunmer + shadow (258 spell/weapon dmg + 13% crit damage) vs khajiit with apprentice/warrior (238 spell/weapon dmg + 10% crit damage) makes dunmer ALWAYS deal more damage than khajiit, both crit and non crit, while also having more stam/mag

I wonder what would happen if the Khajit used the thief mundus. It's interesting that this possibility was neglected to be tested.

In true min/max scenarios, not every race can use the exact same gear/mundus/food/cp. This is because, generally speaking, there is a "happy balance" that can be found between different stats (damage, max resources, crit damage, crit chance) in truly min/maxed builds. This is because of diminishing returns. Adding too much of a single stat wouldn't have as much of a benefit as spreading your resources over a variety of different stats that more closely resembles this "happy balance".

Because different races by nature have different stats, it would logically follow then that the different races would need to wear different gear/mundus/food/etc to more closely resemble this "happy balance" of stats that would result in each race's highest dps totals.

Because Khajit by nature have more critical damage to begin with, it seems only natural to me that the thief mundus stone be chosen as a variable to be tested, to rightfully complement this added bonus to critical damage.

I haven't run the numbers myself, but I would wager that giving Khajit the thief mundus would close the gap a bit between these races more than the either the shadow or warrior. This is due to the way critical hit damage and critical hit chance interact with one another.

Perhaps there is some brave soul that would test this?

I actually did test that during the change of Shadow as well on my DPS parses. Thief is by default weaker than Shadow as it is split between healing and damage while Shadow is raw damage.

Would you mind posting a link to this latest data? I have not yet seen this. My apologies.

dangutang · February 2019

Pretty sure these are the most recent ones.

Seems like they did do a good job in balancing races in that damage results aren't too different. That being said, I feel like the ideal would be Dunmer and Khajiit retaining their hybrid racials, but tweaked such that Khajiit makes a better stam DD, and Dunmer a better magicka DD.

zaria · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

I'll just leave this here...

dunmer + shadow (258 spell/weapon dmg + 13% crit damage) vs khajiit with apprentice/warrior (238 spell/weapon dmg + 10% crit damage) makes dunmer ALWAYS deal more damage than khajiit, both crit and non crit, while also having more stam/mag

I wonder what would happen if the Khajit used the thief mundus. It's interesting that this possibility was neglected to be tested.

In true min/max scenarios, not every race can use the exact same gear/mundus/food/cp. This is because, generally speaking, there is a "happy balance" that can be found between different stats (damage, max resources, crit damage, crit chance) in truly min/maxed builds. This is because of diminishing returns. Adding too much of a single stat wouldn't have as much of a benefit as spreading your resources over a variety of different stats that more closely resembles this "happy balance".

Because different races by nature have different stats, it would logically follow then that the different races would need to wear different gear/mundus/food/etc to more closely resemble this "happy balance" of stats that would result in each race's highest dps totals.

Because Khajit by nature have more critical damage to begin with, it seems only natural to me that the thief mundus stone be chosen as a variable to be tested, to rightfully complement this added bonus to critical damage.

I haven't run the numbers myself, but I would wager that giving Khajit the thief mundus would close the gap a bit between these races more than the either the shadow or warrior. This is due to the way critical hit damage and critical hit chance interact with one another.

Perhaps there is some brave soul that would test this?

Khajiit was tested with thief and it worked best. having maximum crit chance gear is more critical than for others but that is already bis and used by all.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

You could probably get an bit by optimizing cp but that is true for all races even if Khajiit is so weird its more to get here.

Asks for an buff to sustain or resources to balance this so Khajiit is closer to Dunmer.
Don't want more crit damage as its mostly useful for gankers.

LiquidPony · February 2019

JerryAlder wrote: »

After the latest patch 4.3.3 I feel that the balance between our new hybrid races is a little off. We see dunmer performing better in both mag and stam plus they have bigger max pools which at least for me completely beats the trivial khajit sustain. While many of us feel that dunmer is lacking some identity I like where their damage is at. For khajit not so much... Personally I would like to see khajiit revisited. Possibly reverting the 4.3.3 change.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459063/stamina-race-solo-parse-comparison-pts-v4-3-3-stamsorc

I don't see any meaningful difference between Dunmer/Khajiit in my stamsorc tests. Dunmer does have slightly more raw damage but the extra bit of sustain Khajiit have is actually meaningful and plays itself out via slightly different setups and/or rotations.

I plan on seeing if I can do a similar test setup on a stamden.

Either way, I think that anyone who is actually interested in what are ultimately relatively small differences between races should do their own tests and come to their own conclusions.

twing1_ · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

I'll just leave this here...

dunmer + shadow (258 spell/weapon dmg + 13% crit damage) vs khajiit with apprentice/warrior (238 spell/weapon dmg + 10% crit damage) makes dunmer ALWAYS deal more damage than khajiit, both crit and non crit, while also having more stam/mag

I wonder what would happen if the Khajit used the thief mundus. It's interesting that this possibility was neglected to be tested.

In true min/max scenarios, not every race can use the exact same gear/mundus/food/cp. This is because, generally speaking, there is a "happy balance" that can be found between different stats (damage, max resources, crit damage, crit chance) in truly min/maxed builds. This is because of diminishing returns. Adding too much of a single stat wouldn't have as much of a benefit as spreading your resources over a variety of different stats that more closely resembles this "happy balance".

Because different races by nature have different stats, it would logically follow then that the different races would need to wear different gear/mundus/food/etc to more closely resemble this "happy balance" of stats that would result in each race's highest dps totals.

Because Khajit by nature have more critical damage to begin with, it seems only natural to me that the thief mundus stone be chosen as a variable to be tested, to rightfully complement this added bonus to critical damage.

I haven't run the numbers myself, but I would wager that giving Khajit the thief mundus would close the gap a bit between these races more than the either the shadow or warrior. This is due to the way critical hit damage and critical hit chance interact with one another.

Perhaps there is some brave soul that would test this?

Khajiit was tested with thief and it worked best. having maximum crit chance gear is more critical than for others but that is already bis and used by all.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

You could probably get an bit by optimizing cp but that is true for all races even if Khajiit is so weird its more to get here.

Asks for an buff to sustain or resources to balance this so Khajiit is closer to Dunmer.
Don't want more crit damage as its mostly useful for gankers.

Thanks for sharing.

To me, it seems Khajit are exactly where they want them to be: second tier dps on both the stamina side and the magicka side.

Right now, these tests indicate that for stamina, orc and dunmer are battling for the top seat then on the next tier lower its a contended race between Khajit, redguard, and bosmer. This seems intended by design, as orc and dunmer are both the "damage races" with no sustain, and the next contenders are races with sustain.

On the magicka side, a similar situation occurs. It's dunmer/breton/altmer battling it out for the top spot, with Khajit alone in the second tier. Then comes argonian. This is rather consistent as well, for dunmer and altmer are the damage races and they deserve the top the spot. Khajit is 2nd tier, mirroring it's spot in the stamina hierarchy.

The thing that stands out to me is that Breton may be slightly over performing. It seems ZOS is trying to establish a hierarchy in which the damage races (without sustain) are dps kings in ideal scenarios (aka dummy parses) while the sustain races will not be able to perform as well in these controlled environments, but hold the advantage in ease of use (through better resource management).

In this regard, Breton is over performing. It seems as though it is quite intended to be on par with magicka Khajit (in the 2nd tier), if it's stamina sustain counterparts, redguard and bosmer, are any indication. However, it is currently battling out for the top dps seat with both altmer and dunmer.

But that is another topic. Khajit seem like they are fitting nicely into the overall scheme of things as they currently are (top tier 2 option, above the pure sustain races with the exception of Breton).

That being said, it does strike me as odd that dunmer is contending for top of the charts in both stamina and magicka, despite its hybrid nature. I feel a reduction to its max stats (maybe even down to as low as 1500) might be necessary to give "pure" races (races that cannot be used as effectively for both magicka and stamina) the slight advantage. Perhaps they could gain some off-stat sustain for compensation to further their identity as a hybrid race (as Khajit also receive this benefit).

nsmurfer · February 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

JerryAlder wrote: »

After the latest patch 4.3.3 I feel that the balance between our new hybrid races is a little off. We see dunmer performing better in both mag and stam plus they have bigger max pools which at least for me completely beats the trivial khajit sustain. While many of us feel that dunmer is lacking some identity I like where their damage is at. For khajit not so much... Personally I would like to see khajiit revisited. Possibly reverting the 4.3.3 change.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459063/stamina-race-solo-parse-comparison-pts-v4-3-3-stamsorc

I don't see any meaningful difference between Dunmer/Khajiit in my stamsorc tests. Dunmer does have slightly more raw damage but the extra bit of sustain Khajiit have is actually meaningful and plays itself out via slightly different setups and/or rotations.

I plan on seeing if I can do a similar test setup on a stamden.

That's because your test is solo buffed. Khajiit has sustain advantage and major force redundancy does not come into play. Also Magicka wise Dunmer is a clearer choice.

susmitds wrote: »

The Khajiit Dilemma

Starting on something positive, I felt virtually no difference in Solo Buffed DPS for Khajiit. I did not test all races in solo buffed DPS though. It was somewhat different for raid-buffed DPS scenario, where Khajiit is performing not to the point of what other DD races are capable of. To explain this, I will elaborate a bit on what exactly is happening.

LiquidPony · February 2019

nsmurfer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JerryAlder wrote: »

After the latest patch 4.3.3 I feel that the balance between our new hybrid races is a little off. We see dunmer performing better in both mag and stam plus they have bigger max pools which at least for me completely beats the trivial khajit sustain. While many of us feel that dunmer is lacking some identity I like where their damage is at. For khajit not so much... Personally I would like to see khajiit revisited. Possibly reverting the 4.3.3 change.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459063/stamina-race-solo-parse-comparison-pts-v4-3-3-stamsorc

I don't see any meaningful difference between Dunmer/Khajiit in my stamsorc tests. Dunmer does have slightly more raw damage but the extra bit of sustain Khajiit have is actually meaningful and plays itself out via slightly different setups and/or rotations.

I plan on seeing if I can do a similar test setup on a stamden.

That's because your test is solo buffed. Khajiit has sustain advantage and major force redundancy does not come into play. Also Magicka wise Dunmer is a clearer choice.

susmitds wrote: »

The Khajiit Dilemma

Starting on something positive, I felt virtually no difference in Solo Buffed DPS for Khajiit. I did not test all races in solo buffed DPS though. It was somewhat different for raid-buffed DPS scenario, where Khajiit is performing not to the point of what other DD races are capable of. To explain this, I will elaborate a bit on what exactly is happening.

"Major Force redundancy" is a trivial difference.

On a Dunmer parse, I have: 72.0% mean critical chance, 79.8% mean critical damage

On a Khajiit parse, I have: 72.0% mean critical chance, 89.8% mean critical damage

So with 33% Major Force uptime (+5% critical damage) ...

Dunmer = 1 + (0.72 * 0.05) / (1 + 0.72 * 0.798) = 2.29% damage increase from Major Force
Khajiit = 1 + (0.72 * 0.05) / (1 + 0.72 * 0.898) = 2.19% damage increase from Major Force

And of course in both cases keep in mind that only ~85% of your damage is critable in the first place, since Relequen and Velidreth can't crit.

NoTimeToWait · February 2019

Don't forget that khajiit dps is quite haphazard, and in times goes as low as char without racial passives. I really would prefer if ZOS reduced this uncertainty instead of raising it

rafaelcsmaia · February 2019

dangutang wrote: »

Pretty sure these are the most recent ones.

Seems like they did do a good job in balancing races in that damage results aren't too different. That being said, I feel like the ideal would be Dunmer and Khajiit retaining their hybrid racials, but tweaked such that Khajiit makes a better stam DD, and Dunmer a better magicka DD.

It's not that I dont think parses are important, but they usually are so skewed it makes me feel like anyone can prove a point with them. These results for instance, you could call the "no racial" line a new race and people would agree it is completelly balanced, since its dps is floating close to the higher numbers, but in fact they have no buffs AT ALL.

zaria · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

I'll just leave this here...

dunmer + shadow (258 spell/weapon dmg + 13% crit damage) vs khajiit with apprentice/warrior (238 spell/weapon dmg + 10% crit damage) makes dunmer ALWAYS deal more damage than khajiit, both crit and non crit, while also having more stam/mag

I wonder what would happen if the Khajit used the thief mundus. It's interesting that this possibility was neglected to be tested.

In true min/max scenarios, not every race can use the exact same gear/mundus/food/cp. This is because, generally speaking, there is a "happy balance" that can be found between different stats (damage, max resources, crit damage, crit chance) in truly min/maxed builds. This is because of diminishing returns. Adding too much of a single stat wouldn't have as much of a benefit as spreading your resources over a variety of different stats that more closely resembles this "happy balance".

Because different races by nature have different stats, it would logically follow then that the different races would need to wear different gear/mundus/food/etc to more closely resemble this "happy balance" of stats that would result in each race's highest dps totals.

Because Khajit by nature have more critical damage to begin with, it seems only natural to me that the thief mundus stone be chosen as a variable to be tested, to rightfully complement this added bonus to critical damage.

I haven't run the numbers myself, but I would wager that giving Khajit the thief mundus would close the gap a bit between these races more than the either the shadow or warrior. This is due to the way critical hit damage and critical hit chance interact with one another.

Perhaps there is some brave soul that would test this?

Khajiit was tested with thief and it worked best. having maximum crit chance gear is more critical than for others but that is already bis and used by all.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

You could probably get an bit by optimizing cp but that is true for all races even if Khajiit is so weird its more to get here.

Asks for an buff to sustain or resources to balance this so Khajiit is closer to Dunmer.
Don't want more crit damage as its mostly useful for gankers.

Thanks for sharing.

To me, it seems Khajit are exactly where they want them to be: second tier dps on both the stamina side and the magicka side.

Right now, these tests indicate that for stamina, orc and dunmer are battling for the top seat then on the next tier lower its a contended race between Khajit, redguard, and bosmer. This seems intended by design, as orc and dunmer are both the "damage races" with no sustain, and the next contenders are races with sustain.

On the magicka side, a similar situation occurs. It's dunmer/breton/altmer battling it out for the top spot, with Khajit alone in the second tier. Then comes argonian. This is rather consistent as well, for dunmer and altmer are the damage races and they deserve the top the spot. Khajit is 2nd tier, mirroring it's spot in the stamina hierarchy.

The thing that stands out to me is that Breton may be slightly over performing. It seems ZOS is trying to establish a hierarchy in which the damage races (without sustain) are dps kings in ideal scenarios (aka dummy parses) while the sustain races will not be able to perform as well in these controlled environments, but hold the advantage in ease of use (through better resource management).

In this regard, Breton is over performing. It seems as though it is quite intended to be on par with magicka Khajit (in the 2nd tier), if it's stamina sustain counterparts, redguard and bosmer, are any indication. However, it is currently battling out for the top dps seat with both altmer and dunmer.

But that is another topic. Khajit seem like they are fitting nicely into the overall scheme of things as they currently are (top tier 2 option, above the pure sustain races with the exception of Breton).

That being said, it does strike me as odd that dunmer is contending for top of the charts in both stamina and magicka, despite its hybrid nature. I feel a reduction to its max stats might be necessary to give "pure" races (races that cannot be used as effectively for both magicka and stamina) the slight advantage. Perhaps they could gain some off-stat sustain for compensation to further their identity as a hybrid race (as Khajit also receive this benefit).

Dunmer does well in both as its no build in benefit of being hybrid outside of having extra stamina on magic build.
You have one benefit in that you can switch between magic and stamina depending on that works best or then bored.
Hybrids as so does not work in PvE except for tanks.

And Khajiit is not an sustain race, they have 1/3 of bosmer sustain, putting them in lower tire in both un-sustained and sustained.
Do not know why they do better in Stamina, gear?

John_Falstaff · February 2019

@LiquidPony , frankly, @susmitds has larger sample size, and I would have expected variance of that size, especially on classes with execute. If anything, your parses feel too uniform for me, like accidentally lined up. Twenty parses is a solid argument against five (and on the other set, there are way more parses for other classes, that should average out the human error).

nsmurfer · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

I'll just leave this here...

dunmer + shadow (258 spell/weapon dmg + 13% crit damage) vs khajiit with apprentice/warrior (238 spell/weapon dmg + 10% crit damage) makes dunmer ALWAYS deal more damage than khajiit, both crit and non crit, while also having more stam/mag

I wonder what would happen if the Khajit used the thief mundus. It's interesting that this possibility was neglected to be tested.

In true min/max scenarios, not every race can use the exact same gear/mundus/food/cp. This is because, generally speaking, there is a "happy balance" that can be found between different stats (damage, max resources, crit damage, crit chance) in truly min/maxed builds. This is because of diminishing returns. Adding too much of a single stat wouldn't have as much of a benefit as spreading your resources over a variety of different stats that more closely resembles this "happy balance".

Because different races by nature have different stats, it would logically follow then that the different races would need to wear different gear/mundus/food/etc to more closely resemble this "happy balance" of stats that would result in each race's highest dps totals.

Because Khajit by nature have more critical damage to begin with, it seems only natural to me that the thief mundus stone be chosen as a variable to be tested, to rightfully complement this added bonus to critical damage.

I haven't run the numbers myself, but I would wager that giving Khajit the thief mundus would close the gap a bit between these races more than the either the shadow or warrior. This is due to the way critical hit damage and critical hit chance interact with one another.

Perhaps there is some brave soul that would test this?

Khajiit was tested with thief and it worked best. having maximum crit chance gear is more critical than for others but that is already bis and used by all.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

You could probably get an bit by optimizing cp but that is true for all races even if Khajiit is so weird its more to get here.

Asks for an buff to sustain or resources to balance this so Khajiit is closer to Dunmer.
Don't want more crit damage as its mostly useful for gankers.

Thanks for sharing.

To me, it seems Khajit are exactly where they want them to be: second tier dps on both the stamina side and the magicka side.

Right now, these tests indicate that for stamina, orc and dunmer are battling for the top seat then on the next tier lower its a contended race between Khajit, redguard, and bosmer. This seems intended by design, as orc and dunmer are both the "damage races" with no sustain, and the next contenders are races with sustain.

On the magicka side, a similar situation occurs. It's dunmer/breton/altmer battling it out for the top spot, with Khajit alone in the second tier. Then comes argonian. This is rather consistent as well, for dunmer and altmer are the damage races and they deserve the top the spot. Khajit is 2nd tier, mirroring it's spot in the stamina hierarchy.

The thing that stands out to me is that Breton may be slightly over performing. It seems ZOS is trying to establish a hierarchy in which the damage races (without sustain) are dps kings in ideal scenarios (aka dummy parses) while the sustain races will not be able to perform as well in these controlled environments, but hold the advantage in ease of use (through better resource management).

In this regard, Breton is over performing. It seems as though it is quite intended to be on par with magicka Khajit (in the 2nd tier), if it's stamina sustain counterparts, redguard and bosmer, are any indication. However, it is currently battling out for the top dps seat with both altmer and dunmer.

But that is another topic. Khajit seem like they are fitting nicely into the overall scheme of things as they currently are (top tier 2 option, above the pure sustain races with the exception of Breton).

That being said, it does strike me as odd that dunmer is contending for top of the charts in both stamina and magicka, despite its hybrid nature. I feel a reduction to its max stats might be necessary to give "pure" races (races that cannot be used as effectively for both magicka and stamina) the slight advantage. Perhaps they could gain some off-stat sustain for compensation to further their identity as a hybrid race (as Khajit also receive this benefit).

Dunmer does well in both as its no build in benefit of being hybrid outside of having extra stamina on magic build.
You have one benefit in that you can switch between magic and stamina depending on that works best or then bored.
Hybrids as so does not work in PvE except for tanks.

And Khajiit is not an sustain race, they have 1/3 of bosmer sustain, putting them in lower tire in both un-sustained and sustained.
Do not know why they do better in Stamina, gear?

I feel that Imperial is the sustain hybrid race now. susmitds did say they have far better sustain in all three resources than khajiit.

twing1_ · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

And Khajiit is not an sustain race, they have 1/3 of bosmer sustain, putting them in lower tire in both un-sustained and sustained.

The distinction I was making was that Khajit have sustain (85 magicka/stamina recovery) whereas orcs and altmers do not have any.

As to why you would roll a Khajit over the other sustain races:

zaria wrote: »

You have one benefit in that you can switch between magic and stamina depending on that works best or then bored.

Iskiab · February 2019

The change to crit damage instead of crit was a bad one. You can get crit damage from CPs, you can’t get crit. Even if khajit is close it’s just a matter of time until a new BiS set comes along and they fall behind.

What will happen when mother’s sorrow isn’t BiS anymore? Khajit will have to keep wearing it and fall behind.

LiquidPony · February 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@LiquidPony , frankly, @susmitds has larger sample size, and I would have expected variance of that size, especially on classes with execute. If anything, your parses feel too uniform for me, like accidentally lined up. Twenty parses is a solid argument against five (and on the other set, there are way more parses for other classes, that should average out the human error).

I disagree. My parses are uniform because the rotation and setup are extremely consistent and I discarded parses where obvious mistakes were made or buff/debuff uptimes were outside of normal range. In any case where a rotational mistake more severe than an occasional missed LA was made, I threw it away. In any case where Minor Vulnerability was outside of a predetermined range (3% - 9%), I threw it away. My actual sample size is much larger than 5 parses per setup, but many parses were discarded for one of the aforementioned reasons.

Ultimately it would probably be wise to normalize for crit rate as well (for instance, there is a slight outlier in the Orc parses at 44,363 DPS, which had about ~2.5% higher crit rate than average including 90% crits on Storm Atro hits and 81% light attack crits).

The entire point of the test setup is that I can do the same thing over and over again and get very uniform results.

Azyle1 · February 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@LiquidPony , frankly, @susmitds has larger sample size, and I would have expected variance of that size, especially on classes with execute. If anything, your parses feel too uniform for me, like accidentally lined up. Twenty parses is a solid argument against five (and on the other set, there are way more parses for other classes, that should average out the human error).

I disagree. My parses are uniform because the rotation and setup are extremely consistent and I discarded parses where obvious mistakes were made or buff/debuff uptimes were outside of normal range. In any case where a rotational mistake more severe than an occasional missed LA was made, I threw it away. In any case where Minor Vulnerability was outside of a predetermined range (3% - 9%), I threw it away. My actual sample size is much larger than 5 parses per setup, but many parses were discarded for one of the aforementioned reasons.

Ultimately it would probably be wise to normalize for crit rate as well (for instance, there is a slight outlier in the Orc parses at 44,363 DPS, which had about ~2.5% higher crit rate than average including 90% crits on Storm Atro hits and 81% light attack crits).

The entire point of the test setup is that I can do the same thing over and over again and get very uniform results.

@LiquidPony

Didn't your results show more or less Khajiit are not in-fact, in a bad spot (stam wise)?

nsmurfer · February 2019

Solo DPS =/= Raid DPS This is something people don't get. Liquid's Results show Dunmer and Khajiit tied in solo parses. Given Major Force redundancy, it is obvious that Khajiit will fall back in Raid DPS. One of the class reps themselves said it was 1-1.5% nerf. Racials give around 3% more DPS this time. Cutting that by 1-1.5% is like 33-50% nerf.

Azyle1 · February 2019

nsmurfer wrote: »

Solo DPS =/= Raid DPS This is something people don't get. Liquid's Results show Dunmer and Khajiit tied in solo parses. Given major redundancy, it is obvious that Khajiit will fall back in Raid DPS.

@nsmurfer

So then cut the damage down to 8% and give them 6% extra crit, yeah?

@ZOS_Gilliam

zaria · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

And Khajiit is not an sustain race, they have 1/3 of bosmer sustain, putting them in lower tire in both un-sustained and sustained.

The distinction I was making was that Khajit have sustain (85 magicka/stamina recovery) whereas orcs and altmers do not have any.

As to why you would roll a Khajit over the other sustain races:

zaria wrote: »

You have one benefit in that you can switch between magic and stamina depending on that works best or then bored.

Again having both magic and stamina is offer only one benefit, playing magic or stamina. It is not designed to be an significant handicap as seen in Dunmer and 4.3.0 - 4.32 Khajiit. Just a couple has asked for Dunmer nerfs.
Problem with Khajiit now is that ZoS messed up.
Theory crafting before parses came out saw it as mostly an buff, parses does not.
I assume the problem in 4.3.2 was that Khajiit was bis in some classes like templar and the shadow buff made them OP.
So they did and fast change who did not worked out well.

Pretty sure this will change as Khajiit has changed a lot got an small buff in 4.3.2, Bosmer on the other hand

i just want it to be sustain or resources not more crit damage, prefer sustain myself.

rafaelcsmaia · February 2019

"This one didn't see the nerfs coming, it was all too fast."

twing1_ · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

And Khajiit is not an sustain race, they have 1/3 of bosmer sustain, putting them in lower tire in both un-sustained and sustained.

The distinction I was making was that Khajit have sustain (85 magicka/stamina recovery) whereas orcs and altmers do not have any.

As to why you would roll a Khajit over the other sustain races:

zaria wrote: »

You have one benefit in that you can switch between magic and stamina depending on that works best or then bored.

Again having both magic and stamina is offer only one benefit, playing magic or stamina. It is not designed to be an significant handicap as seen in Dunmer and 4.3.0 - 4.32 Khajiit. Just a couple has asked for Dunmer nerfs.
Problem with Khajiit now is that ZoS messed up.
Theory crafting before parses came out saw it as mostly an buff, parses does not.
I assume the problem in 4.3.2 was that Khajiit was bis in some classes like templar and the shadow buff made them OP.
So they did and fast change who did not worked out well.

Pretty sure this will change as Khajiit has changed a lot got an small buff in 4.3.2, Bosmer on the other hand
i just want it to be sustain or resources not more crit damage, prefer sustain myself.

Theory crafting showed exactly what parsing does: minimal changes to stamina cats and a nerf to magic cats.

I do believe this was an intended change, as magic cats were over performing. Now, Khajit on both sides, magicka and stamina, seem to be where they were intended to be: competing near the same level as the sustain races.

Similar parsing, however, does not make Khajit a sustain race. It clearly has less sustain than these races, but has a damage bonus as well (crit damage). However, I feel that as a hybrid race, they should be performing similarly to the sustain races, where they currently are.

The exception to this is Breton, but I believe that isn't a problem with the Khajit, that is a matter of Breton over-performing (as Breton is currently in a heated battle for top magicka dps, where the other sustain races are seated comfortably in tier 2)

There is another outlier to this: dunmer. Despite its hybrid nature, it is contending for a top seat in both stamina and magicka. I feel a reduction in their max resources would put them in a more balanced position, where they are still very good at both stamina and magicka (above the sustain races, yet clearly behind the "pure" damage races of orc and altmer).

With these changes, top dps seats would go to the "pure" damage races, orc and altmer, followed by the "hybrid" damage race, dunmer. In the second tier of dps parsing, there would be the "hybrid" half dmg half sustain race, Khajit, followed very very closely by the "pure" strictly sustain races, bosmer, redguard, and Breton.

This of course would require that dunmer get a nerf to their max resources and Breton get a nerf to their sustain, to bring them both in line to where they ought to be. A slight resource increase (maybe to the mark of 1000) might be necessary for the Khajit as well.

It is also important to note that the damage races would likely only maintain their position at the top of the dps charts on very controlled environments (dummy parses and very well organized, well practiced trial groups). For most content, the damage tiers will be a bit more blurred.

I feel something like this is probably the hierarchy ZOS is intending.

zaria · February 2019

nsmurfer wrote: »

Solo DPS =/= Raid DPS This is something people don't get. Liquid's Results show Dunmer and Khajiit tied in solo parses. Given Major Force redundancy, it is obvious that Khajiit will fall back in Raid DPS. One of the class reps themselves said it was 1-1.5% nerf. Racials give around 3% more DPS this time. Cutting that by 1-1.5% is like 33-50% nerf.

This, matches that seen in parses to. I assumes ZoS used the same math who was used just after 4.3.3 who calculated change as mostly an small buff for stamina and an minor nerf for magic who would be fine.
Have no idea how to translate Khajiit stats. Math in Kerbal Space Program is just rocket science who is much easier

So no change notes as they knew they had messed up by the time this rolled out?

And yes i'm fighting for more sustain primary secondary more resources. Healed most vet dlc on Khajiit. Took my magsorc since preorder stamina at murkmire, the hat tricks of shield and res tank in an vet dlc don't work so well

Made an Altmer replacement for her

around morrowind.
My favorite was the CP180 tank who activated HM in COS as he did not know that it did

Granted we replaced both DD with some serious stuff earlier.