Emma_Overload wrote: »I do not understand how some (very few) think ESO has power atrophy instead of power creep.
It has been very obvious the game has had power creep as challenging or even somewhat challenging instances are so much easier today than a year or two ago. vMA is a great example as their scores have increased over time, not decreased as would occur with power atrophy.
VMA is actually an example of power atrophy. Thanks to the massive nerf to damage shields, VMA is harder than ever for some Magicka classes. Doesn't matter how much DPS has creeped up, the content is harder overall because of reduced defensive capabilities. Sustain has also been nerfed severely since VMA launched. Where is the creep?
Which classes excatly ? Name 1 class that have harder time to complete vMA right now then in 2015 when it was released.
Emma_Overload wrote: »Power creep is a myth. What you guys are talking about is DPS creep. I remember when Vet COA2 was the hardest dungeon in the game. It took me several attempts with various pugs to finally complete it, but it WAS puggable. It was hard, but nothing about it was so complicated that you couldn't explain it in one sentence in chat.
Now we have these ridiculously complicated DLC dungeons. They are effectively unpuggable and impractical to explain without voice comms. My DPS may be hundred times higher than the pre-DLC era, but it doesn't matter because the difficulty of the top content has far outstripped DPS.
I don't think it should be required to watch hours of Alcast videos to complete content. I liked the difficulty of the old ESO, and I suspect many, many players would agree with me.
You do realize that content difficulty skyrocketed because of power creep right?
Emma_Overload wrote: »I do not understand how some (very few) think ESO has power atrophy instead of power creep.
It has been very obvious the game has had power creep as challenging or even somewhat challenging instances are so much easier today than a year or two ago. vMA is a great example as their scores have increased over time, not decreased as would occur with power atrophy.
VMA is actually an example of power atrophy. Thanks to the massive nerf to damage shields, VMA is harder than ever for some Magicka classes. Doesn't matter how much DPS has creeped up, the content is harder overall because of reduced defensive capabilities. Sustain has also been nerfed severely since VMA launched. Where is the creep?
Which classes excatly ? Name 1 class that have harder time to complete vMA right now then in 2015 when it was released.
TheInfernalRage wrote: »
Emma_Overload wrote: »I do not understand how some (very few) think ESO has power atrophy instead of power creep.
It has been very obvious the game has had power creep as challenging or even somewhat challenging instances are so much easier today than a year or two ago. vMA is a great example as their scores have increased over time, not decreased as would occur with power atrophy.
VMA is actually an example of power atrophy. Thanks to the massive nerf to damage shields, VMA is harder than ever for some Magicka classes. Doesn't matter how much DPS has creeped up, the content is harder overall because of reduced defensive capabilities. Sustain has also been nerfed severely since VMA launched. Where is the creep?
Which classes excatly ? Name 1 class that have harder time to complete vMA right now then in 2015 when it was released.
Use the same gear/CP as you did in 2015. and tell us is if it harder/easier today than "back in 2015."
Emma_Overload wrote: »I do not understand how some (very few) think ESO has power atrophy instead of power creep.
It has been very obvious the game has had power creep as challenging or even somewhat challenging instances are so much easier today than a year or two ago. vMA is a great example as their scores have increased over time, not decreased as would occur with power atrophy.
VMA is actually an example of power atrophy. Thanks to the massive nerf to damage shields, VMA is harder than ever for some Magicka classes. Doesn't matter how much DPS has creeped up, the content is harder overall because of reduced defensive capabilities. Sustain has also been nerfed severely since VMA launched. Where is the creep?
Which classes excatly ? Name 1 class that have harder time to complete vMA right now then in 2015 when it was released.
Use the same gear/CP as you did in 2015. and tell us is if it harder/easier today than "back in 2015."
If you dont have the gear/CP it is harder...because of nerfs...that happend BECASUE of insane gear/CP power creep. Gear power creep that regular player (99,9% of playerbase) who might attempt vMA for the first time is not riding as only miniscule number of players are interested in raiding.Emma_Overload wrote: »Power creep is a myth. What you guys are talking about is DPS creep. I remember when Vet COA2 was the hardest dungeon in the game. It took me several attempts with various pugs to finally complete it, but it WAS puggable. It was hard, but nothing about it was so complicated that you couldn't explain it in one sentence in chat.
Now we have these ridiculously complicated DLC dungeons. They are effectively unpuggable and impractical to explain without voice comms. My DPS may be hundred times higher than the pre-DLC era, but it doesn't matter because the difficulty of the top content has far outstripped DPS.
I don't think it should be required to watch hours of Alcast videos to complete content. I liked the difficulty of the old ESO, and I suspect many, many players would agree with me.
You do realize that content difficulty skyrocketed because of power creep right?
Bingo. Except vast majority of people aint riding the insane power creep (just look at stats of how many people finished newest DLC dungeons - 0,1%).
It is lose situation for other 99,9%.
It really isn't hard to hit 40k which already clears a lot of vet content with relative ease
I read the entire thing and all I can do is laugh. The fact that people think you can be "elite" in a non competitive game. That people even think this is a competitive game. The boring "elites matter the most" narrative, which is also false. The idea that anyone who plays this game thinks they are better than anyone else. The idea that people think this game is all about combat.
I mean I could go on and on about how laughable this is, and how people like this take a damn game way too seriously. And how its that seriousness that is what actually leads to the constant toxicity this community produces.
Basically I could boil your entire essay down to: "elites are good, casual bad. elites matter, casuals don't. without power, us leets have nothing to do because we don't actually want to play an rpg, we just want to kill things and wave our epeens around"
thats it, that was your entire essay in one long sentence. Can we stop this now?
Grianasteri wrote: »It really isn't hard to hit 40k which already clears a lot of vet content with relative ease
I'm tentatively thinking it is probably a long time since you were a noob, or the kind of mid tier average player that the vast majority of ESO players are...
Because hitting 40k DPS... IS NOT EASY. Or else everyone would be doing it. They arnt, the average DPS of an average player will be anything from 10k to 20k.
I am also tentatively going to go out on a limb and assume you did not read the very well explained reasons why many people simply cannot achieve the higher DPS that comes from animation cancelling etc.
Animation cancelling won't increase your dps magically.; it only helps a player tighten up their rotation.
What @Agalloch actually means is that many players can't exceed 20K because they don't understand what attack weaving is. Second to that they assume the cast animation to work as the timer for GCD. The latter point is flawed as most animations overrun it.
For all those against bar swapping or block tapping to exit cast animations that overrun the GCD, take your complaint to ZoS and demand they ensure all cast animations last exactly 0.9s -- that way animation cancelling becomes a moot point in this kind of conversation.
Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »To all the people saying “Overland is too easy”
Yeah, to you it is, or might be. But to me it’s difficult.
AlboMalefica wrote: »I mean this is obviously a sensitive subject to some people, I know how easy it is to get or be “dps shamed” if you’re not hitting the “expected” dps level. But to say there’s not a power creep overall in the game and rather a power atrophy is unfortunately incorrect, even ZoS has admitted this with the halting of increasing the cp cap (this is more complicated than just power creep but it was part of the reason). The casual player are just that, casual. I do agree that they shouldn’t be held back because the content is too hard but a lot of the new dungeons are mechanically challenging, they’re designed for organised groups to complete. Yes some of the top tier people can out dps some mechanics but that shouldn’t prevent anyone from completing them.
I doubt anyone who can hit 40k dps are being truthful in saying it’s easy, it takes work, study and practice to improve your dps. Most dungeons can be completed with a 20k dps tbh, it’s the mechanics people need to focus on.
I totally respect the OPs opinion however, maybe they should introduce a third difficulty level “legendary” or something, so people have a challenge that meets their skill level rather than making everything to difficult or too easy
Emma_Overload wrote: »I do not understand how some (very few) think ESO has power atrophy instead of power creep.
It has been very obvious the game has had power creep as challenging or even somewhat challenging instances are so much easier today than a year or two ago. vMA is a great example as their scores have increased over time, not decreased as would occur with power atrophy.
VMA is actually an example of power atrophy. Thanks to the massive nerf to damage shields, VMA is harder than ever for some Magicka classes. Doesn't matter how much DPS has creeped up, the content is harder overall because of reduced defensive capabilities. Sustain has also been nerfed severely since VMA launched. Where is the creep?
Which classes excatly ? Name 1 class that have harder time to complete vMA right now then in 2015 when it was released.
Use the same gear/CP as you did in 2015. and tell us is if it harder/easier today than "back in 2015."
If you dont have the gear/CP it is harder...because of nerfs...that happend BECASUE of insane gear/CP power creep. Gear power creep that regular player (99,9% of playerbase) who might attempt vMA for the first time is not riding as only miniscule number of players are interested in raiding.Emma_Overload wrote: »Power creep is a myth. What you guys are talking about is DPS creep. I remember when Vet COA2 was the hardest dungeon in the game. It took me several attempts with various pugs to finally complete it, but it WAS puggable. It was hard, but nothing about it was so complicated that you couldn't explain it in one sentence in chat.
Now we have these ridiculously complicated DLC dungeons. They are effectively unpuggable and impractical to explain without voice comms. My DPS may be hundred times higher than the pre-DLC era, but it doesn't matter because the difficulty of the top content has far outstripped DPS.
I don't think it should be required to watch hours of Alcast videos to complete content. I liked the difficulty of the old ESO, and I suspect many, many players would agree with me.
You do realize that content difficulty skyrocketed because of power creep right?
Bingo. Except vast majority of people aint riding the insane power creep (just look at stats of how many people finished newest DLC dungeons - 0,1%).
It is lose situation for other 99,9%.
Except the people defending that insane power creep like CP are ironically the people who complain about power creep creating these hard DLC dungeons that they cant finish. They are literally defending the things that indirectly create their issues in the first place.
VaranisArano wrote: »vMA and power creep/power atrophy is interesting.
Because vMA, like all content in ESO, gets easier the more experience you have doing it. You need certain minimums - defense, self-heals, and DPS - but once you've done it, you can do it again, and since its all mechanics, effectively, it will only get easier the more experienced you are.
So that's the power creep argument. vMA is easier than it used to be.
Except...
1. We have players completing it with laughable gear, suggesting that experience is what makes it easier, not just power creep.
2. We have new players constantly struggling to complete vMA, again, suggesting that experience is what makes it easier, not just power creep.
At a certain level of experience, vMA is easy. Below that level, VMA is quite challenging, but not insurmountable so. Moreover, nerfs cannot take away player experience with mechanics. So while an experienced player may find that a given nerf made their vMA run somewhat harder but not insurmountable, a less experienced vMA player will find that it's much more difficult to adjust. (Example: damage shield nerfs)
Now, how does that tie into DLC dungeons and trials?
Its illustrative of the DPS gap - where some groups have enough DPS to complete harder content (high tier) and others, the middle tier, have barely enough or just enough to struggle through (middle tier).
We can surmise that experience makes them easier. So for groups or player who are able to complete that content in the first place (high tier), repeated competions make that content easier despite the stacked mechanics and low margins for error. Any nerfs will lower this group's DPS, but will not impact the experience they have from completing the content so its much easier to adjust. Thus, this group experiences most of the benefits of power creep and fewer of the downsides of power atrophy. (This also makes it easier for those groups to push for yet harder content.)
For players who struggle to complete that content in the first place (middle tier), stacked mechanics and low margins of error become a barrier preventing them from ever feeling like the content is becoming easier. Nerfs make it harder to perform, in a group already struggling, and they don't have the experience with completions to fall back on. Thus, this group experiences fewer of the benefits of power creep and more of the downsides of power atrophy. (This also locks these groups out of even harder content).
So, we see that there is a DPS and experience gap between the high tier and middle tier that insulates the high tier from many of the measures that ZOS uses to nerf DPS while those same measures end up making it harder for middle tier players/guilds to complete the content to get the experience that would make repeated completions easier. Furthermore, we see that centering development of new content around high tier players experienced with completing harder content leaves behind the middle tier who was struggling to deal with those mechanics and low margins of error, when new content is more of the same only harder.
Essentially ESO's content, ,and nowhere illustrates this better than vMA, is designed to get easier the more you experience it. There's a big problem if the middle tier is being locked out of or struggling to complete the newer, harder content because of stacked mechanics, low margins of error, and nerfs while development continues to cater to players who have repeated completions of that content.
I'm not sure what the solution is.
I'm not sure there's a combat system that can equalize internet speed and player skill, or allow power creep without turning high tier play boring.
I do think ESO needs better progression for middle tier players if they are going to continue to push harder end-game content. The DLC dungeon packs continue to spike in difficulty, and large parts of the player base are not keeping pace or are falling behind. Its easy to say that's laziness or not applying themselves, but this game doesnt even teach how to do a proper end-game rotation or LA weave so I think that's a short-sighted answer. If ESO wants more of its players to enjoy harder end-game content at a higher tier of play, at some point the game has to actually support and teach players on their way to that level.
Power creep is already significant
There were times were 30k dps was top tier, then short after 40k was the new standard. Then surely enough it was 50k and slowly creeping towards 55k plus
Not to mention support sets increasing this even more significantly where good dps are parsing 70k plus and stamina nightblades well over 80k
Pve dps is already pretty insane and the gear to get that dps is very easy to farm or straight up buy from traders or other players
It really isn't hard to hit 40k which already clears a lot of vet content with relative ease
Following the years of eso. It has catered a lot to casual players, it really has. Heck, look at that new dungeon skin that you can get if you just clear it on vet. Not very special if a lot of people can now obtain it
New trials come out once maybe twice a year, and that's really all the hardcore players get out of new content. Maybe the dlc dungeons too.
With the current max cp of 810. You can spec a lot of points into recovery, damage, and mitigation. Making clearing older content a lot easier
Also. Most of the vet trial content are years old, theres tons of guides on the internet and on YouTube. If people cant clear the older vet trials, then that group needs to work on dps, mechanics, communication and teamwork. Cause hitting that 40k plus dps is not that hard at all, theres tons of videos and guides on rotations to hit those numbers
I agree that there should be power creep as more updates happen, but overall, the mid tiered players can work on becoming better players and not relying on power creep to get by content.
squinceybones wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »vMA and power creep/power atrophy is interesting.
Because vMA, like all content in ESO, gets easier the more experience you have doing it. You need certain minimums - defense, self-heals, and DPS - but once you've done it, you can do it again, and since its all mechanics, effectively, it will only get easier the more experienced you are.
So that's the power creep argument. vMA is easier than it used to be.
Except...
1. We have players completing it with laughable gear, suggesting that experience is what makes it easier, not just power creep.
2. We have new players constantly struggling to complete vMA, again, suggesting that experience is what makes it easier, not just power creep.
At a certain level of experience, vMA is easy. Below that level, VMA is quite challenging, but not insurmountable so. Moreover, nerfs cannot take away player experience with mechanics. So while an experienced player may find that a given nerf made their vMA run somewhat harder but not insurmountable, a less experienced vMA player will find that it's much more difficult to adjust. (Example: damage shield nerfs)
Now, how does that tie into DLC dungeons and trials?
Its illustrative of the DPS gap - where some groups have enough DPS to complete harder content (high tier) and others, the middle tier, have barely enough or just enough to struggle through (middle tier).
We can surmise that experience makes them easier. So for groups or player who are able to complete that content in the first place (high tier), repeated competions make that content easier despite the stacked mechanics and low margins for error. Any nerfs will lower this group's DPS, but will not impact the experience they have from completing the content so its much easier to adjust. Thus, this group experiences most of the benefits of power creep and fewer of the downsides of power atrophy. (This also makes it easier for those groups to push for yet harder content.)
For players who struggle to complete that content in the first place (middle tier), stacked mechanics and low margins of error become a barrier preventing them from ever feeling like the content is becoming easier. Nerfs make it harder to perform, in a group already struggling, and they don't have the experience with completions to fall back on. Thus, this group experiences fewer of the benefits of power creep and more of the downsides of power atrophy. (This also locks these groups out of even harder content).
So, we see that there is a DPS and experience gap between the high tier and middle tier that insulates the high tier from many of the measures that ZOS uses to nerf DPS while those same measures end up making it harder for middle tier players/guilds to complete the content to get the experience that would make repeated completions easier. Furthermore, we see that centering development of new content around high tier players experienced with completing harder content leaves behind the middle tier who was struggling to deal with those mechanics and low margins of error, when new content is more of the same only harder.
Essentially ESO's content, ,and nowhere illustrates this better than vMA, is designed to get easier the more you experience it. There's a big problem if the middle tier is being locked out of or struggling to complete the newer, harder content because of stacked mechanics, low margins of error, and nerfs while development continues to cater to players who have repeated completions of that content.
I'm not sure what the solution is.
I'm not sure there's a combat system that can equalize internet speed and player skill, or allow power creep without turning high tier play boring.
I do think ESO needs better progression for middle tier players if they are going to continue to push harder end-game content. The DLC dungeon packs continue to spike in difficulty, and large parts of the player base are not keeping pace or are falling behind. Its easy to say that's laziness or not applying themselves, but this game doesnt even teach how to do a proper end-game rotation or LA weave so I think that's a short-sighted answer. If ESO wants more of its players to enjoy harder end-game content at a higher tier of play, at some point the game has to actually support and teach players on their way to that level.
Initially i think the DLC dungeons were that bridge, mazzatun, cradle of shadows were relevant at the time for me. I had friends that weren't into trials but were still good enough to get achievements in these, that being said I haven't even set foot in the newer ones and they definitely do seem a bit tougher. I feel like the information to get players to end game content is available, even though it's on 3rd party sites. Unfortunately i don't see zos teaching players though as they've demonstrated on their live streams that they aren't capable themselves. There was one dev that was somewhat in the end game scene but i'm not sure what happened to him.
20% low level players facing first time normal level content and 20% high end players facing increasingly over difficult content while the larger 60% are left in the middle looking for either new in game challenges of which we are seeing none or simply leaving the game and truth be told it's probably this middle 60% that are buying up the crown store goodies keeping the other 40% doing what they enjoy