Maintenance for the week of February 18:
• [COMPLETE] Xbox One: EU megaserver for maintenance – February 20, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
The Wrathstone DLC Game Pack and Update 21 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! Read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454456/

70 percent of mag sorc attacks miss

  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
    ✭✭✭✭
    Bad Sorcs are bad.

    Zerged sorcs are zerged:)
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Problem with this metric is that "% of attacks missed" is not a measure of a class' strength/weakness.

    If you were to gather the same data on a Stamblade, you'd find that they miss an even greater proportion of their outgoing attacks, because the entire typical Stamblade offsensive toolkit is dodgeable and disjointable with Cloak (the only exception being if they slot Spin2Win, which isn't the most common occurence on a Stamblade, and isn't even Stamblade-specific anyway). Sorc on the other hand, has Curse to land frequent, undogeable burst. Atro too if you run that.

    But you wouldn't ask for Stamblade buffs simply because they miss more often. Class balance is far too nuanced and circumstantial to ask for changes based on one statistic like this.

    I'm of the opinion that Magsorcs will be in a fine spot as soon as Wings allows for more counterplay. The class is otherwise fairly strong in the current meta.
    Edited by TheYKcid on February 11, 2019 8:18PM
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • PhoenixGrey
    PhoenixGrey
    ✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    I asked him and he said your shields soak up my bleeds so there is parity.

    This is not true at all in no CP

  • MalagenR
    MalagenR
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Class balance is far too nuanced and circumstantial to ask for changes based on one statistic like this.

    Just curious, what made you think you didn't do the exact same thing when calling for a nerf to Wall of Elements, you didn't even use statistics, just anecdotal evidence.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    MalagenR wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Class balance is far too nuanced and circumstantial to ask for changes based on one statistic like this.

    Just curious, what made you think you didn't do the exact same thing when calling for a nerf to Wall of Elements, you didn't even use statistics, just anecdotal evidence.

    Perhaps because comparing a single ability, numerically and situationally, to several of it's closest functional equivalents (and yes, you'd see the data if you actually read) is not the same as passing judgment on an entire class? Shocker, I know.

    Good to see you still haven't let it go though, lol. Will be funny when the nerfs come through, and they will—the snare system is consistently singled-out for future reform time and again.
    Edited by TheYKcid on February 11, 2019 10:06PM
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • MalagenR
    MalagenR
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    MalagenR wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Class balance is far too nuanced and circumstantial to ask for changes based on one statistic like this.

    Just curious, what made you think you didn't do the exact same thing when calling for a nerf to Wall of Elements, you didn't even use statistics, just anecdotal evidence.

    Perhaps because comparing a single ability, numerically and situationally, to several of it's closest functional equivalents (and yes, you'd see the data if you actually read) is not the same as passing judgment on an entire class? Shocker, I know.

    Good to see you still haven't let it go though, lol. Will be funny when the nerfs come through, and they will—the snare system is consistently singled-out for future reform time and again.

    I'm not saying it doesn't require a rework. I've already admitted Permafrost is significantly overperforming due to the way in which snares stack.

    Major / Minor system is a good suggestion. It's just that you made the point that a single skill was over performing instead of the system as a whole, which is what I was arguing with you against.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Snares don't stack. Bigger snares override smaller ones for the duration they're active, and thus the Frost Blockade snare is nullified when "stacked" with Perma. This has been the way it's worked for over two years now.
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • MalagenR
    MalagenR
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Snares don't stack. Bigger snares override smaller ones for the duration they're active, and thus the Frost Blockade snare is nullified when "stacked" with Perma. This has been the way it's worked for over two years now.

    Ah, then I disagree with your point entirely, except for the suggestion of a Major / Minor system.
  • Murador178
    Murador178
    ✭✭✭
    If I duel mag sorc probably 90% of my damage is migated by 14k instant shields. If I duel a block DK probably 70% dmg is lost to block and so on. All defenses are alot stronger than comparing offense restulting in alot of ties in duels.

    So if u manage to land that burst one time on the medium armor build he will explode. If u get that blocker stunned into burst u might get him down aswell.

    I find non reactive easy to play defenses like shields/heavy armor block trollking earthgore alot more annoying than dodge roll so.
    Medium armor builds are quite weak except nightblades and need some help. Ur playing ur sorc wrong there is no way to get so high miss chance considering ur using CURSE and CC.
    I doubt u can even reach those numbers since magicka builds like sorcs arent rolldodging alot and so on?
    Are u counting shields+ and block as migation aswell?
    Edited by Murador178 on February 11, 2019 11:31PM
  • Arca94
    Arca94
    Soul Shriven
    With the way PvP is in ESO, every class has it's weaknesses, sure you can try to build it to counter them, but then you may not be getting the full potential out of your class (as has been pointed out in this thread eg using flare which is a waste of a slot when fighting other classes).

    I've all classes a decent amount in PvP, but my most played character is a ranged magblade and EVERY skill I have (aside from fear...) is dodgeable. Not only that they are also reflectable, so not only do I have it worse against dodge roll spammers, I also cannot do anything versus magDKs nor anyone with Spell Wall up.

    But back to sorcs. I personally believe the damage on their burst combo merits how it can be evaded easily (Just a side note, I am against all this 'minimum cast time' BS that ZoS has been pushing). Curse, frag and wrath timed well with a reach/force pulse in there obliterates less experienced players, although it might be harder to kill tanky/experienced players with (but doesn't every class struggle then?). Even if this combo is reacted to with a dodge roll, the target will still take the damage from curse which on its own has a pretty high damage tooltip. I also find that Meteor into Rune Cage is still a very good combo, since it forces to target to either block the meteor and take the stun, or dodge the stun and take the meteor.

    Compared to many classes, I believe sorcs actually have a pretty decent kit to counter cloaking nightblades as well, without even necessarily building specifically for it. Curse cannot be mitigated by cloak and reveals them, very few single target, easily appliable abilities can do this in game (can only currently think of Templar's PL/PotL, correct me if there are more). Streak is also effective at revealing them and giving a brief window to attack. Also, although not everyone runs it, Boundless Storm will reveal them as long as you remain on top of them, which streak helps a lot with.

    I think there is a lot of unnecessary complaining about magsorcs on these forums, despite them still being very viable albeit with some slightly tougher match-ups sometimes.
  • Ragnaroek93
    Ragnaroek93
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Screenshot_20190211_224939.png

    Nerf Cloak and dodge :)
  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Screenshot_20190211_224939.png

    Nerf Cloak and dodge :)

    Come on. You didn't die to THAT? From a rookie?
    Edited by Lord-Otto on February 12, 2019 2:14AM
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
    ✭✭✭✭
    Murador178 wrote: »
    If I duel mag sorc probably 90% of my damage is migated by 14k instant shields. If I duel a block DK probably 70% dmg is lost to block and so on. All defenses are alot stronger than comparing offense restulting in alot of ties in duels.

    So if u manage to land that burst one time on the medium armor build he will explode. If u get that blocker stunned into burst u might get him down aswell.

    I find non reactive easy to play defenses like shields/heavy armor block trollking earthgore alot more annoying than dodge roll so.
    Medium armor builds are quite weak except nightblades and need some help. Ur playing ur sorc wrong there is no way to get so high miss chance considering ur using CURSE and CC.
    I doubt u can even reach those numbers since magicka builds like sorcs arent rolldodging alot and so on?
    Are u counting shields+ and block as migation aswell?

    I did not account for shields as they can be effectively considered heals now due to how they scale with Crit and your resists. Block is inherently included in the damage mitigation number I computed. Reread the second post at the top of the thread and I walk through how I got he numbers I have.

    Curse is a different issue and can be discussed in a different thread. This is about mag sorc offense not being as effective against competent players due to how badly they nerfed the projectile abilities. I should be able to burst as consistently as other classes in the game or my class kit should focus on high pressure dps exclusive or burst. Currently the mag sorc class kit doesn’t offer either on a consistent basis as pet AI and targeting is broken and the burst was eviscerated by poor balancing by the design team.



    Edited by Illuvatarr on February 12, 2019 9:18AM
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
    ✭✭✭✭
    Arca94 wrote: »
    With the way PvP is in ESO, every class has it's weaknesses, sure you can try to build it to counter them, but then you may not be getting the full potential out of your class (as has been pointed out in this thread eg using flare which is a waste of a slot when fighting other classes).

    I've all classes a decent amount in PvP, but my most played character is a ranged magblade and EVERY skill I have (aside from fear...) is dodgeable. Not only that they are also reflectable, so not only do I have it worse against dodge roll spammers, I also cannot do anything versus magDKs nor anyone with Spell Wall up.

    But back to sorcs. I personally believe the damage on their burst combo merits how it can be evaded easily (Just a side note, I am against all this 'minimum cast time' BS that ZoS has been pushing). Curse, frag and wrath timed well with a reach/force pulse in there obliterates less experienced players, although it might be harder to kill tanky/experienced players with (but doesn't every class struggle then?). Even if this combo is reacted to with a dodge roll, the target will still take the damage from curse which on its own has a pretty high damage tooltip. I also find that Meteor into Rune Cage is still a very good combo, since it forces to target to either block the meteor and take the stun, or dodge the stun and take the meteor.

    Compared to many classes, I believe sorcs actually have a pretty decent kit to counter cloaking nightblades as well, without even necessarily building specifically for it. Curse cannot be mitigated by cloak and reveals them, very few single target, easily appliable abilities can do this in game (can only currently think of Templar's PL/PotL, correct me if there are more). Streak is also effective at revealing them and giving a brief window to attack. Also, although not everyone runs it, Boundless Storm will reveal them as long as you remain on top of them, which streak helps a lot with.

    I think there is a lot of unnecessary complaining about magsorcs on these forums, despite them still being very viable albeit with some slightly tougher match-ups sometimes.

    This is a well thought out and engaging post. I don’t think my concern is with mag sorcs as a class nearly as much as it is with mag sorc offense being subjected to 82 percent damage mitigation. As I said earlier, happy to lose the burst for high pressure constant dps that doesn’t require me to slot pets I cannot control. Having my offense not work at all is nonsense however.

  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
    ✭✭✭✭
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Problem with this metric is that "% of attacks missed" is not a measure of a class' strength/weakness.

    If you were to gather the same data on a Stamblade, you'd find that they miss an even greater proportion of their outgoing attacks, because the entire typical Stamblade offsensive toolkit is dodgeable and disjointable with Cloak (the only exception being if they slot Spin2Win, which isn't the most common occurence on a Stamblade, and isn't even Stamblade-specific anyway). Sorc on the other hand, has Curse to land frequent, undogeable burst. Atro too if you run that.

    But you wouldn't ask for Stamblade buffs simply because they miss more often. Class balance is far too nuanced and circumstantial to ask for changes based on one statistic like this.

    I'm of the opinion that Magsorcs will be in a fine spot as soon as Wings allows for more counterplay. The class is otherwise fairly strong in the current meta.

    1) How is offensive effectiveness not a valid measure of class balance? When I say that, it should invariably be part of the formula and there are obviously other factors. However, it is all about delivery. This game forces melee combat on you with very few escape options and it is much much easier to land melee attacks than ranged attacks. Miss rates are much more important to a ranged spec than a melee spec.
    2) In your second paragraph it may be true however it is pure conjecture without hard data.
    3) Pets are broken and the LOS nonsense is overpowered. If that is how ZOS wants to balance sorcs, they should hire a new balancing team. The skills need to be fluid, pet sorcs should not be able to abuse LOS mechanics with pets OR, even better, they should not have to and pet AI/player control of pets needs to be significantly enhanced.
  • Murador178
    Murador178
    ✭✭✭
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Screenshot_20190211_224939.png

    Nerf Cloak and dodge :)

    Come on. You didn't die to THAT? From a rookie?

    Did u just call me a rookie, Mr. forum sorc? Fight me on the pts and u will die in a simular fasion :trollface: . To give ur medium armor stamblade a chance I will play without using ultimates like in all duels except tanks and pet sorcs. U can add ur deathcaps afterwards in this thread.
    My nb got a simular image from @Ragnaroek93 pet sorc. Controlling pets isnt that hard u need to bind the pet commands @Illuvatarr . So it would be more convenient if the pet just attacks the target u highlighted or just the same target u are attacking.

    unknown.png
    Edited by Murador178 on February 12, 2019 10:23AM
  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tsss. I can run around a corner and the Twilight will be confused and fly off back to Oblivion. Using pets as a balancing argument is not very valid...
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Problem with this metric is that "% of attacks missed" is not a measure of a class' strength/weakness.

    If you were to gather the same data on a Stamblade, you'd find that they miss an even greater proportion of their outgoing attacks, because the entire typical Stamblade offsensive toolkit is dodgeable and disjointable with Cloak (the only exception being if they slot Spin2Win, which isn't the most common occurence on a Stamblade, and isn't even Stamblade-specific anyway). Sorc on the other hand, has Curse to land frequent, undogeable burst. Atro too if you run that.

    But you wouldn't ask for Stamblade buffs simply because they miss more often. Class balance is far too nuanced and circumstantial to ask for changes based on one statistic like this.

    I'm of the opinion that Magsorcs will be in a fine spot as soon as Wings allows for more counterplay. The class is otherwise fairly strong in the current meta.

    1) How is offensive effectiveness not a valid measure of class balance? When I say that, it should invariably be part of the formula and there are obviously other factors. However, it is all about delivery. This game forces melee combat on you with very few escape options and it is much much easier to land melee attacks than ranged attacks. Miss rates are much more important to a ranged spec than a melee spec.
    2) In your second paragraph it may be true however it is pure conjecture without hard data.
    3) Pets are broken and the LOS nonsense is overpowered. If that is how ZOS wants to balance sorcs, they should hire a new balancing team. The skills need to be fluid, pet sorcs should not be able to abuse LOS mechanics with pets OR, even better, they should not have to and pet AI/player control of pets needs to be significantly enhanced.

    Definitely conjecture, but based on logical premises. I'd encourage you to actually test it, though (I have neither the time nor will to do so myself, lol). If nothing else, you'll get some useful insight into how Stamblade operates, which translates into knowing how to counter them from the other side of the matchup. It's why I decided to pick-up Magsorc and see what the fuss was all about, way back when, and it was very enlightening.

    Absolutely agree about petsorc being broken as heck, and adjustments to targeting definitely need to happen (I've previously suggested a toggeable option in the game menu to disable targeting of pets). I staunchly maintain that nonpet Sorc is still entirely viable right now, but if buffing it incentivises people to move away from pet builds, I'd be all for that too.
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • Galarthor
    Galarthor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's Sorcs suffering and NBs profiting, ergo ZOS doesn't care.
  • Irylia
    Irylia
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Magdk, magblade, stamblade, stamdk, stamsorc, magsorc, stamden, Magden.

    Most of your damage, especially singles target pressure damage that leads to a kill can be dodged/cloaked.

    Subs, noxious, curse aren’t enough alone

    Slotting inhale/det/flare/sap essence
    Are also not enough damage to kill someone consistently doing roll/cloak.

    Not to mention Stam can’t afford to run flare specifically for cloaking and range casters can still have their abilities force missed despite “seeing” the person in cloak.
    If you cloak when a frag/bird is traveling it will force miss. Despite being “visible”

    When players just start spamming roll because they don’t know how to mitigate damage via class skills or healing its extremely brain dead mitigation that can hardly be punished.

    This is increased when outnumbered as the player you want to kill keeps force missing your abilities until you reluctantly focus a new target arb which point they start spamming snipe again.
    Founder: Animosity (Best Guild NA + EU)

    Youtube - TeAiry

    Alpha Sorc:
    Irylia - DC sorcerer rank 46
    Iraliia - EP sorcerer rank 41

    The two time 3rd place Legend duelist (16k hp all divines btw)
  • Ragnaroek93
    Ragnaroek93
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Irylia wrote: »
    Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

    You are also a player using 3 proc sets on pts and still failing.
    With your limited knowledge on sorc and affinity for dk, I doubt you are a reliable or unbiased statistic.

    Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.


    I haven't used a proc set in the past 2-3 years (not even on PTS except for Shadowrend on my sorc) and I don't play a magdk, what the hell are you talking about? I've never even played against you lol. Good thing that you start getting personal and insulting me instead of being constructive and telling me why I'm wrong with my post.
  • SirAndy
    SirAndy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    ... With a 73.3 percent miss rate, that means there is 73.3 percent damage mitigation BEFORE we take into account actual hits. ... we are arrive at a confidence interval of 79.4 percent to 85.4 percent total damage mitigation ... This is with 99 percent confidence due to the number of observations. ... we are 99 percent confident ... will lie somewhere between 79.4 percent to 85.4 percent. ... Is it balanced for one class to have roughly 82 percent of their offense completely negated at all times ...

    We can derive meaning from this.

    Hey Ya'll! Welcome to the new and improved Catch-A-Ride! Now with 47% more than 26% death annually. That's down from last year - hold your applause.

    w00t.gif

    The Sidekick Order:
    The Naked Nords | The Cannon Fodder of Tamriel | The Mercenaries without Skills | The League of formidable Crafters
    The Psijic Order - 0.016% | Elder Moot | Lone Wolf Help | Great House Hlaalu
  • fred4
    fred4
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Speaking as a cloaking magblade, detection potions counter me pretty hard. Some magsorcs are also very adept at using Streak and even the magicka version of Lightning Form can be quite nasty, as are people who know how to use Magelight to prevent your escape from melee range.

    I find dodge rolling stamblades difficult to catch regardless of the class I play, especially those that wear Eternal Hunt. Forward Momentum only lasting 4 seconds was an indirect buff to that set, IMO.

    When I play medium armor myself, dodge rolls are usually a necessary defense that I must rely on. I tend to be vulnerable to Soul Assault. I wonder what classes you were thinking of the most, when you started this thread? Nightblades?

    Dodge roll (into Mist Form into dodge roll) is arguably the most effective defense in a 1vX. On the other hand it is also arguably a more active and skilled defense than shielding, blocking or cloaking, and I find that on a medium armor (ganking-spec) stamblade I am heavily reliant on it.

    I have not really explored AOE skills in this situation. Blockade is more frequently seen on ice wardens. It can be nasty against melee nightblades, but I guess that goes particularly for ice staves.

    If you really hate nightblades, pets, Blockade, Lightning Form, Soul Assault and Zaan can make short work of them, to be honest. Depends on the location. I don't like Soul Assault in a resource tower fight, since the curved platform cancels it easily. A Meteor combo ought to be more versatile, but I'm no sorc expert. I believe some magsorcs run Dawnbreaker, which strikes me as a no CP option.
    PC EU, Stamina DK (EP), Magicka NB (EP), Magicka Warden (EP), Magicka Templar (EP). Occasionally: Stamina Templar (EP), Stamina NB (AD), Stamina Sorcerer (DC)
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
    ✭✭✭✭
    fred4 wrote: »
    Speaking as a cloaking magblade, detection potions counter me pretty hard. Some magsorcs are also very adept at using Streak and even the magicka version of Lightning Form can be quite nasty, as are people who know how to use Magelight to prevent your escape from melee range.

    I find dodge rolling stamblades difficult to catch regardless of the class I play, especially those that wear Eternal Hunt. Forward Momentum only lasting 4 seconds was an indirect buff to that set, IMO.

    When I play medium armor myself, dodge rolls are usually a necessary defense that I must rely on. I tend to be vulnerable to Soul Assault. I wonder what classes you were thinking of the most, when you started this thread? Nightblades?

    Dodge roll (into Mist Form into dodge roll) is arguably the most effective defense in a 1vX. On the other hand it is also arguably a more active and skilled defense than shielding, blocking or cloaking, and I find that on a medium armor (ganking-spec) stamblade I am heavily reliant on it.

    I have not really explored AOE skills in this situation. Blockade is more frequently seen on ice wardens. It can be nasty against melee nightblades, but I guess that goes particularly for ice staves.

    If you really hate nightblades, pets, Blockade, Lightning Form, Soul Assault and Zaan can make short work of them, to be honest. Depends on the location. I don't like Soul Assault in a resource tower fight, since the curved platform cancels it easily. A Meteor combo ought to be more versatile, but I'm no sorc expert. I believe some magsorcs run Dawnbreaker, which strikes me as a no CP option.

    Don’t know if i was thinking of a specific class when I started counting. I did think of nightblades when doing the total mitigation number as they are the only class that dodgeroll and cloak.

  • fred4
    fred4
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Irylia wrote: »
    Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.
    While I don't play magsorc, I play magblade and have played magden. Shields are pretty dire on a magblade this patch. The pen and crit changes plus the Healing Ward nerf hit the class hard. I have been insta-ganked with a zero counterplay Lethal Arrow + Incap + Killer's Blade (2 GCD) combo while having Dampen and the Shade up, albeit not blocking. That said, I do not play a high magicka nightblade build, but only 33K in CP.

    Cloak is great, if I get away. If I am caught in AOE, Magelight or with a Detection potion, I'm in dire trouble, unless I have the shade up. Basically Dampen + Healing Ward is darn weak, these days. I'd give something for better shields in those situations.

    It's much better on the magden, where I run a 50K mag, 25.5K health, 12.7K Dampen shield build. That, together with Living Trellis, means it's viable to do something inbetween shielding. On the magblade that's not really possible, except against weak players or ones who are in a buff cycle. Against a bursting stamblade I am lucky if I can get one Swallow Soul in to establish some healing. This is probably a bit build specific. If I had higher magicka or controlled players with Cripple, I might be less reliant on Cloak. Point is, a shield-stacking sorc surely has some breathing room to act between shield stacks, whereas with magblade, or at least with mine, the viability of regaining control over the fight with shields, as opposed to cloak and shade, has gone down the drain. They are purely for emergency. I neither have as large shields as a sorc, nor as good healing as a warden does. Magblade healing is a shadow of it's former self.

    I don't know what you mean by full sustain return. I run a pretty high-sustain perma-cloaking setup. Being able to perma-cloak out of combat is not the same as in combat. You typically have higher out of combat sustain in this game (on every class). I cannot infinitely sustain cloak, while in combat, not even in CP on a Breton, and you're never really doing nothing in cloak either, as there is typically some buff to apply. I drain magicka in cloak. Yes, it's great that you can disengage, but I now use Meditate to get back into the fight. There are drawbacks to a cloak - burst - cloak playstyle. While you - at best - control the fight, you also give others time to recuperate and, more importantly, to turn resources. It's virtually impossible to defend a resource with a cloaking nightblade, if you get into a prolonged fight, since the resource turns for the enemy while you cloak.

    Sorcerer honestly has the next best thing to cloak with Bolt Escape and I often see sorcs combining that with an Invisibility potion, if they want to disengage altogether.
    PC EU, Stamina DK (EP), Magicka NB (EP), Magicka Warden (EP), Magicka Templar (EP). Occasionally: Stamina Templar (EP), Stamina NB (AD), Stamina Sorcerer (DC)
  • Murador178
    Murador178
    ✭✭✭
    Irylia wrote: »
    Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

    You are also a player using 3 proc sets on pts and still failing.
    With your limited knowledge on sorc and affinity for dk, I doubt you are a reliable or unbiased statistic.

    Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.


    Very nice attitude calling people out that I for sure know that they are not using any proc sets.... U should make an exposed vid of that imaginary magDk :trollface: .

    The numbers from OP make zero sense except he only attacked nbs. Considering there are alot of nbs in cyro - but still they arent near 50% of the players I dont know how he got the data. Was he dueling a medium armor stamblade in cyro for multiple hours or does he want to tell us that on no CP the typical mDk/stam DK mSorc are rolling all over the place :smiley: . Or was he just trying to spam light attacks on a rolldodgers. So missing 80% of the hits vs a stamblade is still bad play not timing attacks well at all. As long as he cant even show some data its just a claim:

    I can also say I went cyro and 90% of my attacks got blocked and still nobody would believe me. My story to the data is I hit 1000 people and 900 attacks got blocked :trollface: . I claim ur numbers are manupilated because it sounds cooler or u did one of things above.

    His statement of saying its 100% migation if he takes resists in account makes zero sense aswell. Resists are only calculated on the remaing attacks hitting him --> resulting in the taken dmg (hitchance claimed to about 20%):

    takendmg% = 20% * (100% - migation%)
    Edited by Murador178 on February 13, 2019 1:44PM
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
    ✭✭✭✭
    [/i
    Murador178 wrote: »
    Irylia wrote: »
    Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

    You are also a player using 3 proc sets on pts and still failing.
    With your limited knowledge on sorc and affinity for dk, I doubt you are a reliable or unbiased statistic.

    Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.


    Very nice attitude calling people out that I for sure know that they are not using any proc sets.... U should make an exposed vid of that imaginary magDk :trollface: .

    The numbers from OP make zero sense except he only attacked nbs. Considering there are alot of nbs in cyro - but still they arent near 50% of the players I dont know how he got the data. Was he dueling a medium armor stamblade in cyro for multiple hours or does he want to tell us that on no CP the typical mDk/stam DK mSorc are rolling all over the place :smiley: . Or was he just trying to spam light attacks on a rolldodger. so missing 80% of the hits vs a stamblade is still bad play not timing attacks well at all. As long as he cant even show some data its just a claim:

    I can also say I went cyro and 90% of my attacks got blocked and still nobody would believe me.

    His statement of saying its 100% migation if he takes resists in account makes zero sense aswell. Resists are only calculated on the remaing attacks hitting him --> resulting in the taken dmg -hitchance claimed to about 20%:

    takendmg% = 20% * (100% - migation%)
    Murador178 wrote: »
    Irylia wrote: »
    Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

    You are also a player using 3 proc sets on pts and still failing.
    With your limited knowledge on sorc and affinity for dk, I doubt you are a reliable or unbiased statistic.

    Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.


    Very nice attitude calling people out that I for sure know that they are not using any proc sets.... U should make an exposed vid of that imaginary magDk :trollface: .

    The numbers from OP make zero sense except he only attacked nbs. Considering there are alot of nbs in cyro - but still they arent near 50% of the players I dont know how he got the data. Was he dueling a medium armor stamblade in cyro for multiple hours or does he want to tell us that on no CP the typical mDk/stam DK mSorc are rolling all over the place :smiley: . Or was he just trying to spam light attacks on a rolldodger. so missing 80% of the hits vs a stamblade is still bad play not timing attacks well at all. As long as he cant even show some data its just a claim:

    I can also say I went cyro and 90% of my attacks got blocked and still nobody would believe me.

    His statement of saying its 100% migation if he takes resists in account makes zero sense aswell. Resists are only calculated on the remaing attacks hitting him --> resulting in the taken dmg -hitchance claimed to about 20%:

    takendmg% = 20% * (100% - migation%)

    Incorrect. 73.3 percent were combined misses and dodges. CP pvp. Mixed classes. The 82.4 percent includes the potential damage mitigation after attacks landed of your average stamblade with 23k resists. It is the center point of the confidence interval and I assure you the confidence interval itself captures a 99 percent chance the true overall mitigation is within it.
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
    ✭✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    [/i
    Murador178 wrote: »
    Irylia wrote: »
    Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

    You are also a player using 3 proc sets on pts and still failing.
    With your limited knowledge on sorc and affinity for dk, I doubt you are a reliable or unbiased statistic.

    Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.


    Very nice attitude calling people out that I for sure know that they are not using any proc sets.... U should make an exposed vid of that imaginary magDk :trollface: .

    The numbers from OP make zero sense except he only attacked nbs. Considering there are alot of nbs in cyro - but still they arent near 50% of the players I dont know how he got the data. Was he dueling a medium armor stamblade in cyro for multiple hours or does he want to tell us that on no CP the typical mDk/stam DK mSorc are rolling all over the place :smiley: . Or was he just trying to spam light attacks on a rolldodger. so missing 80% of the hits vs a stamblade is still bad play not timing attacks well at all. As long as he cant even show some data its just a claim:

    I can also say I went cyro and 90% of my attacks got blocked and still nobody would believe me.

    His statement of saying its 100% migation if he takes resists in account makes zero sense aswell. Resists are only calculated on the remaing attacks hitting him --> resulting in the taken dmg -hitchance claimed to about 20%:

    takendmg% = 20% * (100% - migation%)
    Murador178 wrote: »
    Irylia wrote: »
    Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

    You are also a player using 3 proc sets on pts and still failing.
    With your limited knowledge on sorc and affinity for dk, I doubt you are a reliable or unbiased statistic.

    Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.


    Very nice attitude calling people out that I for sure know that they are not using any proc sets.... U should make an exposed vid of that imaginary magDk :trollface: .

    The numbers from OP make zero sense except he only attacked nbs. Considering there are alot of nbs in cyro - but still they arent near 50% of the players I dont know how he got the data. Was he dueling a medium armor stamblade in cyro for multiple hours or does he want to tell us that on no CP the typical mDk/stam DK mSorc are rolling all over the place :smiley: . Or was he just trying to spam light attacks on a rolldodger. so missing 80% of the hits vs a stamblade is still bad play not timing attacks well at all. As long as he cant even show some data its just a claim:

    I can also say I went cyro and 90% of my attacks got blocked and still nobody would believe me.

    His statement of saying its 100% migation if he takes resists in account makes zero sense aswell. Resists are only calculated on the remaing attacks hitting him --> resulting in the taken dmg -hitchance claimed to about 20%:

    takendmg% = 20% * (100% - migation%)

    Incorrect. 73.3 percent were combined misses and dodges. CP pvp. Mixed classes. The 82.4 percent includes the potential damage mitigation after attacks landed of your average stamblade with 23k resists. It is the center point of the confidence interval and I assure you the confidence interval itself captures a 99 percent chance the true overall mitigation is within it.

    I will say the vast majority of the fights were against AD and my observation is that a lot more NB’s tend to play for that faction although I don’t have hard figures to validate that.

  • Murador178
    Murador178
    ✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    [/i
    Murador178 wrote: »
    Irylia wrote: »
    Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

    You are also a player using 3 proc sets on pts and still failing.
    With your limited knowledge on sorc and affinity for dk, I doubt you are a reliable or unbiased statistic.

    Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.


    Very nice attitude calling people out that I for sure know that they are not using any proc sets.... U should make an exposed vid of that imaginary magDk :trollface: .

    The numbers from OP make zero sense except he only attacked nbs. Considering there are alot of nbs in cyro - but still they arent near 50% of the players I dont know how he got the data. Was he dueling a medium armor stamblade in cyro for multiple hours or does he want to tell us that on no CP the typical mDk/stam DK mSorc are rolling all over the place :smiley: . Or was he just trying to spam light attacks on a rolldodger. so missing 80% of the hits vs a stamblade is still bad play not timing attacks well at all. As long as he cant even show some data its just a claim:

    I can also say I went cyro and 90% of my attacks got blocked and still nobody would believe me.

    His statement of saying its 100% migation if he takes resists in account makes zero sense aswell. Resists are only calculated on the remaing attacks hitting him --> resulting in the taken dmg -hitchance claimed to about 20%:

    takendmg% = 20% * (100% - migation%)
    Murador178 wrote: »
    Irylia wrote: »
    Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

    You are also a player using 3 proc sets on pts and still failing.
    With your limited knowledge on sorc and affinity for dk, I doubt you are a reliable or unbiased statistic.

    Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.


    Very nice attitude calling people out that I for sure know that they are not using any proc sets.... U should make an exposed vid of that imaginary magDk :trollface: .

    The numbers from OP make zero sense except he only attacked nbs. Considering there are alot of nbs in cyro - but still they arent near 50% of the players I dont know how he got the data. Was he dueling a medium armor stamblade in cyro for multiple hours or does he want to tell us that on no CP the typical mDk/stam DK mSorc are rolling all over the place :smiley: . Or was he just trying to spam light attacks on a rolldodger. so missing 80% of the hits vs a stamblade is still bad play not timing attacks well at all. As long as he cant even show some data its just a claim:

    I can also say I went cyro and 90% of my attacks got blocked and still nobody would believe me.

    His statement of saying its 100% migation if he takes resists in account makes zero sense aswell. Resists are only calculated on the remaing attacks hitting him --> resulting in the taken dmg -hitchance claimed to about 20%:

    takendmg% = 20% * (100% - migation%)

    Incorrect. 73.3 percent were combined misses and dodges. CP pvp. Mixed classes. The 82.4 percent includes the potential damage mitigation after attacks landed of your average stamblade with 23k resists. It is the center point of the confidence interval and I assure you the confidence interval itself captures a 99 percent chance the true overall mitigation is within it.

    Miss chance on shuffle and double take have been removed. So ur claiming all those magicka classes are also dodgeroll monkeys? Or was the lag so bad that hits didnt register? Otherwise there is only one option to get so many misses thats being not able to hold the mouse cursor over ur target... I saw a thread complaining of not being able to hit opponents because of hitboxes. Maybe thats ur problem.

    PS: a screenshot of ur statics would be nice aswell - otherwise it stays a claim.
    Edited by Murador178 on February 13, 2019 1:53PM
Sign In or Register to comment.