Maintenance for the week of February 18:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – February 18
• Xbox One: EU megaserver for maintenance – February 20, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
The Wrathstone DLC Game Pack and Update 21 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! Read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454456/

70 percent of mag sorc attacks miss

  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
    ✭✭✭✭
    While we are on that note, my bound aegis should be a passive that provides 82 percent damage mitigation against stamina burst since the intention of good design is to make the ranged nuking class fight in close quarters with a staff, reflectable/dodgeable akills and false hope.
  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Perhaps. Maybe if those tools provided the same level of burst in close quarters as the classes that can utilize dodge and cloak most (stamina classes) you might have an argument. However, they don’t. Furthermore, they don’t address the fact that 82 percent damage mitigation is absurd and silly. If that is your rationale, my Daedric tomb should tooltip for 15k each mine to hard counter dodge rollers and nightblades since we are discussing good and intelligent design intentions.

    You are so hung up on this 82% damage mitigation of dodge and cloak, but there is a significant flaw in your argument. You are purposely ONLY using skills that can be dodged. You can't complain about not hitting people when you are making combat so much more difficult for yourself. Try working in some of these skills against people who are roll dodging against you:
    • Lightning Staff heavy attack
    • Restoration Staff heavy attack
    • Elemental Blockade
    • Encase
    • Rune Cage
    • Soul Assault

    These skills are much easier to use than Daedric Tomb, and they contribute to reducing damage mitigation of dodge to 0%. And I already talked in detail about how awesome Scorching Flare can be against Cloak. I'm giving you the tools to compete against opponents who are countering your burst package, but you keep ignoring them and reverting to your 82% damage mitigation argument, which only exists because you stubbornly insist on only using dodgeable skills against players who are dodging and cloaking.
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
    ✭✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Perhaps. Maybe if those tools provided the same level of burst in close quarters as the classes that can utilize dodge and cloak most (stamina classes) you might have an argument. However, they don’t. Furthermore, they don’t address the fact that 82 percent damage mitigation is absurd and silly. If that is your rationale, my Daedric tomb should tooltip for 15k each mine to hard counter dodge rollers and nightblades since we are discussing good and intelligent design intentions.

    You are so hung up on this 82% damage mitigation of dodge and cloak, but there is a significant flaw in your argument. You are purposely ONLY using skills that can be dodged. You can't complain about not hitting people when you are making combat so much more difficult for yourself. Try working in some of these skills against people who are roll dodging against you:
    • Lightning Staff heavy attack
    • Restoration Staff heavy attack
    • Elemental Blockade
    • Encase
    • Rune Cage
    • Soul Assault

    These skills are much easier to use than Daedric Tomb, and they contribute to reducing damage mitigation of dodge to 0%. And I already talked in detail about how awesome Scorching Flare can be against Cloak. I'm giving you the tools to compete against opponents who are countering your burst package, but you keep ignoring them and reverting to your 82% damage mitigation argument, which only exists because you stubbornly insist on only using dodgeable skills against players who are dodging and cloaking.

    Respectfully you are missing the point. Those skills can be used and you aren’t going to kill anything. Most importantly, the point of the thread is that the the mitigation is too high for the listed skills. If you believe that isn’t so or that it should be that high please provide your reasons as to why. And I would kindly ask you to cite another class spec subject to that level of mitigation in their classes burst spec.

    You are basically telling me that it is ok for other classes to spec to do burst damage and not face the same level of damage mitigation or hard counters that a mag sorc does but it is not ok for mag sorcs to spec to burst and reasonably expect the same outcome. That is an unacceptable and non productive answer.

  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Perhaps. Maybe if those tools provided the same level of burst in close quarters as the classes that can utilize dodge and cloak most (stamina classes) you might have an argument. However, they don’t. Furthermore, they don’t address the fact that 82 percent damage mitigation is absurd and silly. If that is your rationale, my Daedric tomb should tooltip for 15k each mine to hard counter dodge rollers and nightblades since we are discussing good and intelligent design intentions.

    You are so hung up on this 82% damage mitigation of dodge and cloak, but there is a significant flaw in your argument. You are purposely ONLY using skills that can be dodged. You can't complain about not hitting people when you are making combat so much more difficult for yourself. Try working in some of these skills against people who are roll dodging against you:
    • Lightning Staff heavy attack
    • Restoration Staff heavy attack
    • Elemental Blockade
    • Encase
    • Rune Cage
    • Soul Assault

    These skills are much easier to use than Daedric Tomb, and they contribute to reducing damage mitigation of dodge to 0%. And I already talked in detail about how awesome Scorching Flare can be against Cloak. I'm giving you the tools to compete against opponents who are countering your burst package, but you keep ignoring them and reverting to your 82% damage mitigation argument, which only exists because you stubbornly insist on only using dodgeable skills against players who are dodging and cloaking.

    Respectfully you are missing the point. Those skills can be used and you aren’t going to kill anything. Most importantly, the point of the thread is that the the mitigation is too high for the listed skills. If you believe that isn’t so or that it should be that high please provide your reasons as to why. And I would kindly ask you to cite another class spec subject to that level of mitigation in their classes burst spec.

    You are basically telling me that it is ok for other classes to spec to do burst damage and not face the same level of damage mitigation or hard counters that a mag sorc does but it is not ok for mag sorcs to spec to burst and reasonably expect the same outcome. That is an unacceptable and non productive answer.

    You can absolutely get kills with those skills. Scorching Flare hits Nightblade, prevents cloak and puts on a monster DOT. Shattering Prison hits their dodge roll and does damage. Rune Cage for the stun. Soul Assault should often be enough to finish them off while they break free and try another dodge roll (because they can't cloak). Go ahead and mix in whatever else you want, but that's the outline. You can even drop another Scorching Flare because they'll try cloaking again once the cloak suppression duration expires. Of course this burst is not as high as other forms of burst potential, but it can be reliable if you do it right.

    Please don't pretend that your own burst setup is the only burst in the game that has "that level of mitigation in their classes burst spec." Please look into Magblade burst against Dragonknight's Wings.
  • Rikumaru
    Rikumaru
    ✭✭✭✭
    Theres a big difference between 82% "mitigation" from cloak and actual 82% mitigation. You just land that CC / combo once and you've either 1 shot them or done a significant amount of damage to them. Meanwhile a build with 82% mitigation would literally be unkillable 1v1. That being said something needs to be done about cloak or maybe rebuff the other classes which got stuff taken away from them from previous nerfs.

    Something I want to know is why do so many forum mag sorc players despise nightblades and visa versa? It's actual insanity.
    Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
    ✭✭✭✭
    Rikumaru wrote: »
    Theres a big difference between 82% "mitigation" from cloak and actual 82% mitigation. You just land that CC / combo once and you've either 1 shot them or done a significant amount of damage to them. Meanwhile a build with 82% mitigation would literally be unkillable 1v1. That being said something needs to be done about cloak or maybe rebuff the other classes which got stuff taken away from them from previous nerfs.

    Something I want to know is why do so many forum mag sorc players despise nightblades and visa versa? It's actual insanity.

    Post has nothing to do with nightblades. It has to do with mag sorc offense being basically nullified and uncontrollable pets being lazily and incompetently offered as a solution to a non existent problem. It was not a problem for the first four years of the game and most if not all competent players had no trouble fighting the class. 82 percent damage mitigation is 82 percent damage mitigation regardless of how it is achieved. Stating “use heavy attacks and scorching flares on your hot bar in open rvr and hope for the best” to counter dodge rollers is an amazingly bad answer to the issue.

  • Anyron
    Anyron
    ✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Perhaps. Maybe if those tools provided the same level of burst in close quarters as the classes that can utilize dodge and cloak most (stamina classes) you might have an argument. However, they don’t. Furthermore, they don’t address the fact that 82 percent damage mitigation is absurd and silly. If that is your rationale, my Daedric tomb should tooltip for 15k each mine to hard counter dodge rollers and nightblades since we are discussing good and intelligent design intentions.

    You are so hung up on this 82% damage mitigation of dodge and cloak, but there is a significant flaw in your argument. You are purposely ONLY using skills that can be dodged. You can't complain about not hitting people when you are making combat so much more difficult for yourself. Try working in some of these skills against people who are roll dodging against you:
    • Lightning Staff heavy attack
    • Restoration Staff heavy attack
    • Elemental Blockade
    • Encase
    • Rune Cage
    • Soul Assault

    These skills are much easier to use than Daedric Tomb, and they contribute to reducing damage mitigation of dodge to 0%. And I already talked in detail about how awesome Scorching Flare can be against Cloak. I'm giving you the tools to compete against opponents who are countering your burst package, but you keep ignoring them and reverting to your 82% damage mitigation argument, which only exists because you stubbornly insist on only using dodgeable skills against players who are dodging and cloaking.

    Lightning staff heavy atks for pvp? Joke? (all destro+resto staff heavy atks are useless -low damage, high time required to charge)
    Resto staff heavy atacks. Ouch that hurts
    Elemental Blockade in pvp? Seriously?
    Encase - not damage skill
    Rune cage - same as above
    Soul Assault - nice ulti, one which i agree on with you. I am using it on my magsorc and its great against dodge+cloak guys. Problem is it can be sometimes interrupted ( not actual interrupt) with cloak. And it still can be dodged, even when it is beam
    Edited by Anyron on February 11, 2019 5:34AM
  • Moonsorrow
    Moonsorrow
    ✭✭✭✭
    82% mitigation is only against your skill setup clearly. You want the traditional sorc burst combo to work on all targets, but its rock, paper and scissors..

    My own sorc (for Cyro open world) is built as a NB killer since so many of them right now (because many are lazy to adjust setups to counter them), but and rightfully so, it then has other weakness instead and the traditional burst combo obviously is not there for bar space reasons.

    Can fight other classes too of course, but not as easily as with the traditional setup. And it is a fair trade that is acceptable. As it should be.

    Just adjust your build to make it more efficient against cloakers and rollers if they seem trouble for you. They do NOT mitigate pretty much anything if you dont let them.

    Honestly, my shields mitigate way more damage against experienced players with flexible setup than my Cloak does when playing on my nb. What Cloak really shines is on getting the first strike benefit and the forced crits.

    Yes, Cloak can be annoying to those who are not willing to adjust setup well knowing the amounts of nightblades and still sticking up to the old ways of doing things. But they can only blame themselves for it. A good sorc has ALL the tools to totally dominate against nightblades. Just use them. :)
    PC/EU - Sotha Sil - DC
    solo & small scale
    1000+ CP
    Playing all classes
  • bardx86
    bardx86
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    I won't speak to the particular argument between you and your friend, but I will say that I have had great success using Scorching Flare to turn a lot of "misses" into "hits."

    Most Nightblades are predictable in their use of cloak (they often use it right after a dodge), so you can launch a Scorching Flare in the direction of their roll dodge and they cloak right into it as it explodes. The DOT from Scorching Flare hits hard, and will both cancel cloak for a short time, and put a lot of pressure on your opponent. Perhaps one of the greatest changes ZOS has ever made was making Flare cheap enough that you can spam it. Flare also gives you a nice 10% magicka recovery bonus just for being slotted if you invest into the Magicka Aid passive from the Support skill line.

    I know the Overload changes dropped a third bar from Sorcerers, but if you can find a spot for Scorching Flare it's really nice when you're in open world scenarios where you run into a lot of Nightblades. In grouped, team play, you can probably drop it from your bar, as there is often enough heals to go around to just shrug off Nightblades.

    While excellent advice and definitely a great tactic, my concern lies with the mechanics of dodge and cloak causing misses and how mag sorc offense interacts with them. If we can keep the conversation on that, I would greatly appreciate it. There are other dynamics to the match up between nightblades and mag sorcs that influence it as we all well know.

    However, this is more about dodge/miss rates. They are exorbitantly high. It is my belief they are very imbalanced.

    You did specifically say that you were happy to listen to suggestions -- so I offered one that Sorcerers can access, Scorching Flare, which can counter the "miss" benefit that cloak grants a player. That appears to be on point in a discussion about dodge/miss rates because once Scorching Flare connects against cloak it completely nullifies cloak's miss benefit for a short period of time. Dismissing it as not being part of of the discussion doesn't make much sense.

    Anyway, concerning dodge, these Sorcerer skills can't be dodged:
    • Volatile Familiar (activated skill)
    • Encase
    • Daedric Mines
    • Lightning Form
    • Lightning Splash
    • Bolt Escape
    • Heavy Attacks (If you equip a Lightning Staff or Restoration Staff)
    • An ultimate ability like Soul Assault also works well, as players who are dodging cannot block, and will take more damage from the undodgeable skill.

    omg those skills are so devastating. SA isn't a sorc skill. Sorcs skills are broken they never land even tho the sorcs outplay you and you know it.
    Edited by bardx86 on February 11, 2019 6:24AM
    Elured Fury PC_NA
  • Idinuse
    Idinuse
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Perhaps. Maybe if those tools provided the same level of burst in close quarters as the classes that can utilize dodge and cloak most (stamina classes) you might have an argument. However, they don’t. Furthermore, they don’t address the fact that 82 percent damage mitigation is absurd and silly. If that is your rationale, my Daedric tomb should tooltip for 15k each mine to hard counter dodge rollers and nightblades since we are discussing good and intelligent design intentions.

    You are so hung up on this 82% damage mitigation of dodge and cloak, but there is a significant flaw in your argument. You are purposely ONLY using skills that can be dodged. You can't complain about not hitting people when you are making combat so much more difficult for yourself. Try working in some of these skills against people who are roll dodging against you:
    • Lightning Staff heavy attack
    • Restoration Staff heavy attack
    • Elemental Blockade
    • Encase
    • Rune Cage
    • Soul Assault

    These skills are much easier to use than Daedric Tomb, and they contribute to reducing damage mitigation of dodge to 0%. And I already talked in detail about how awesome Scorching Flare can be against Cloak. I'm giving you the tools to compete against opponents who are countering your burst package, but you keep ignoring them and reverting to your 82% damage mitigation argument, which only exists because you stubbornly insist on only using dodgeable skills against players who are dodging and cloaking.

    No, I find most posters here in this thread are hugely hung up on the word Night Blade and Cloak, which is sad since it's only here as an example.

    No class should have their Skills miss (no matter the class) as much as Sorcerers do. This has to be looked at, and I'm glad Zos has acknowledged it and will do just that.
    Sed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?
  • bardx86
    bardx86
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Beardimus wrote: »
    The changes to a few skills have certainly made it feel that way. I'm not privy to the math as on console.

    The stealth nerf to endless fury was one of the most noticable changes yet bad / new players still moan about it as a skill[/quote

    It was a horrible change. Can we make heals miss as well?
    Elured Fury PC_NA
  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    bardx86 wrote: »
    Frags misses more than it should. It's a feel of the game issue. Someone is running away form you, you cast a frags and it missed for no reason. Sorcs skills are broken.

    I'd be glad if it just missed. Truth is, half of the time it won't even fire due to lag, LoS and spaghetti code.
    (-_-)
  • ku5h
    ku5h
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Perhaps. Maybe if those tools provided the same level of burst in close quarters as the classes that can utilize dodge and cloak most (stamina classes) you might have an argument. However, they don’t. Furthermore, they don’t address the fact that 82 percent damage mitigation is absurd and silly. If that is your rationale, my Daedric tomb should tooltip for 15k each mine to hard counter dodge rollers and nightblades since we are discussing good and intelligent design intentions.

    You are so hung up on this 82% damage mitigation of dodge and cloak, but there is a significant flaw in your argument. You are purposely ONLY using skills that can be dodged. You can't complain about not hitting people when you are making combat so much more difficult for yourself. Try working in some of these skills against people who are roll dodging against you:
    • Lightning Staff heavy attack
    • Restoration Staff heavy attack
    • Elemental Blockade
    • Encase
    • Rune Cage
    • Soul Assault

    These skills are much easier to use than Daedric Tomb, and they contribute to reducing damage mitigation of dodge to 0%. And I already talked in detail about how awesome Scorching Flare can be against Cloak. I'm giving you the tools to compete against opponents who are countering your burst package, but you keep ignoring them and reverting to your 82% damage mitigation argument, which only exists because you stubbornly insist on only using dodgeable skills against players who are dodging and cloaking.

    Respectfully you are missing the point. Those skills can be used and you aren’t going to kill anything. Most importantly, the point of the thread is that the the mitigation is too high for the listed skills. If you believe that isn’t so or that it should be that high please provide your reasons as to why. And I would kindly ask you to cite another class spec subject to that level of mitigation in their classes burst spec.

    You are basically telling me that it is ok for other classes to spec to do burst damage and not face the same level of damage mitigation or hard counters that a mag sorc does but it is not ok for mag sorcs to spec to burst and reasonably expect the same outcome. That is an unacceptable and non productive answer.

    You can absolutely get kills with those skills. Scorching Flare hits Nightblade, prevents cloak and puts on a monster DOT. .

    That monster 2k flame dmg over 3 sec...
    PC-EU 1000+ cp
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    This is absolutely a problem for magicka Sorcs. It’s the old combat teams style of “balance.” They were OP for a bit then they get nerfed so hard they’re just barely viable. Instead of just making the CC dodgeable they had to nerf mages wrath as well. Sad.
  • Ragnaroek93
    Ragnaroek93
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Perhaps. Maybe if those tools provided the same level of burst in close quarters as the classes that can utilize dodge and cloak most (stamina classes) you might have an argument. However, they don’t. Furthermore, they don’t address the fact that 82 percent damage mitigation is absurd and silly. If that is your rationale, my Daedric tomb should tooltip for 15k each mine to hard counter dodge rollers and nightblades since we are discussing good and intelligent design intentions.

    Look man, that's exactly the problem of you and probably many other sorc players. You're still stuck in 2015 and think it should be ok to hide behind shields until your burst is ready and just delete someone with frags + curse on 40m range. Start trying to pull out more pressure instead of burst, do smart rotations instead of shieldspam until burst is ready and put a bit effort into your kills. If you take away the defense which allows me to stay alive against your sorc what would you give me in exchange? Can I get a 13k shield spammable as well? Or do we nerf shields down to a reasonable value?

    Use Overwhelming Surge set if dodge and Cloak bothers you so much, if you still have troubles against them with that set then I can't help you.
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
    ✭✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Perhaps. Maybe if those tools provided the same level of burst in close quarters as the classes that can utilize dodge and cloak most (stamina classes) you might have an argument. However, they don’t. Furthermore, they don’t address the fact that 82 percent damage mitigation is absurd and silly. If that is your rationale, my Daedric tomb should tooltip for 15k each mine to hard counter dodge rollers and nightblades since we are discussing good and intelligent design intentions.

    Look man, that's exactly the problem of you and probably many other sorc players. You're still stuck in 2015 and think it should be ok to hide behind shields until your burst is ready and just delete someone with frags + curse on 40m range. Start trying to pull out more pressure instead of burst, do smart rotations instead of shieldspam until burst is ready and put a bit effort into your kills. If you take away the defense which allows me to stay alive against your sorc what would you give me in exchange? Can I get a 13k shield spammable as well? Or do we nerf shields down to a reasonable value?

    Use Overwhelming Surge set if dodge and Cloak bothers you so much, if you still have troubles against them with that set then I can't help you.

    Now we are talking turkey. First valid point of the thread addressing the issue.

    I agree 100 percent that I should not be able to blow you up from 40 meters away with impunity. (Which by the way I can still do against inexperienced players) Forcing me to use 4 ability slots and hide behind (literally) two pets that I cannot control should not be an option either. Using the pets as a bandaid without solid changes to this is not an option either. Ruining my offense so I cannot do anything to you is not an option and is the option Herr Wrobel and his band of merry men/women have chosen.

    Ruining the classes offense was the path they chose without considering the ramifications of this with apparently not giving a *** about the consequences of the decision.

    This is why I suggest the archmage class from warhammer as a good archetype to work off of. I should be able to pressure you. I should be able to make it hard but not impossible for you to close distance and I should be able to apply the same pressure you do with the same ease so the fights are dynamic, engaging and fun.
  • psychotic13
    psychotic13
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with what youre saying, i mean ive binned my magsorc. They just dont feel what they used to be. Some people have adapted and good on them, i just prefer stamsorc now.

    But that is a large number, something i would be interested in seeing is, how much of the misses were light attacks and were you using a flame staff, weaving in pvp with a flame staff isnt the greatest in comparison to weaving with a resto/lightning stave.
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
    ✭✭✭✭
    I agree with what youre saying, i mean ive binned my magsorc. They just dont feel what they used to be. Some people have adapted and good on them, i just prefer stamsorc now.

    But that is a large number, something i would be interested in seeing is, how much of the misses were light attacks and were you using a flame staff, weaving in pvp with a flame staff isnt the greatest in comparison to weaving with a resto/lightning stave.

    That is a good question and unfortunately I don’t have that broken out. I counted total misses and dodges. However, I use a lightning staff and an ice staff. I weave in lightning light attacks and overload light attacks.

  • Ragnaroek93
    Ragnaroek93
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Perhaps. Maybe if those tools provided the same level of burst in close quarters as the classes that can utilize dodge and cloak most (stamina classes) you might have an argument. However, they don’t. Furthermore, they don’t address the fact that 82 percent damage mitigation is absurd and silly. If that is your rationale, my Daedric tomb should tooltip for 15k each mine to hard counter dodge rollers and nightblades since we are discussing good and intelligent design intentions.

    Look man, that's exactly the problem of you and probably many other sorc players. You're still stuck in 2015 and think it should be ok to hide behind shields until your burst is ready and just delete someone with frags + curse on 40m range. Start trying to pull out more pressure instead of burst, do smart rotations instead of shieldspam until burst is ready and put a bit effort into your kills. If you take away the defense which allows me to stay alive against your sorc what would you give me in exchange? Can I get a 13k shield spammable as well? Or do we nerf shields down to a reasonable value?

    Use Overwhelming Surge set if dodge and Cloak bothers you so much, if you still have troubles against them with that set then I can't help you.

    Now we are talking turkey. First valid point of the thread addressing the issue.

    I agree 100 percent that I should not be able to blow you up from 40 meters away with impunity. (Which by the way I can still do against inexperienced players) Forcing me to use 4 ability slots and hide behind (literally) two pets that I cannot control should not be an option either. Using the pets as a bandaid without solid changes to this is not an option either. Ruining my offense so I cannot do anything to you is not an option and is the option Herr Wrobel and his band of merry men/women have chosen.

    Ruining the classes offense was the path they chose without considering the ramifications of this with apparently not giving a *** about the consequences of the decision.

    This is why I suggest the archmage class from warhammer as a good archetype to work off of. I should be able to pressure you. I should be able to make it hard but not impossible for you to close distance and I should be able to apply the same pressure you do with the same ease so the fights are dynamic, engaging and fun.

    Without a pet you won't kill a tank build or another shield user as well so I don't understand why you complain about Cloak and Dodge so much more than about the other defenses which are around equally strong. You act like it would be a sorc only issue but literally every class isn't able to kill anything unless you either stack absurd amounts of weapon/spelldmg or really strong pressure from bleeds or pets.

    Never played Warhammer so I can't really comment this. Problem with ESO is that everything boils down to either who has more dots/pressure or who has more burst.
  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    ku5h wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Perhaps. Maybe if those tools provided the same level of burst in close quarters as the classes that can utilize dodge and cloak most (stamina classes) you might have an argument. However, they don’t. Furthermore, they don’t address the fact that 82 percent damage mitigation is absurd and silly. If that is your rationale, my Daedric tomb should tooltip for 15k each mine to hard counter dodge rollers and nightblades since we are discussing good and intelligent design intentions.

    You are so hung up on this 82% damage mitigation of dodge and cloak, but there is a significant flaw in your argument. You are purposely ONLY using skills that can be dodged. You can't complain about not hitting people when you are making combat so much more difficult for yourself. Try working in some of these skills against people who are roll dodging against you:
    • Lightning Staff heavy attack
    • Restoration Staff heavy attack
    • Elemental Blockade
    • Encase
    • Rune Cage
    • Soul Assault

    These skills are much easier to use than Daedric Tomb, and they contribute to reducing damage mitigation of dodge to 0%. And I already talked in detail about how awesome Scorching Flare can be against Cloak. I'm giving you the tools to compete against opponents who are countering your burst package, but you keep ignoring them and reverting to your 82% damage mitigation argument, which only exists because you stubbornly insist on only using dodgeable skills against players who are dodging and cloaking.

    Respectfully you are missing the point. Those skills can be used and you aren’t going to kill anything. Most importantly, the point of the thread is that the the mitigation is too high for the listed skills. If you believe that isn’t so or that it should be that high please provide your reasons as to why. And I would kindly ask you to cite another class spec subject to that level of mitigation in their classes burst spec.

    You are basically telling me that it is ok for other classes to spec to do burst damage and not face the same level of damage mitigation or hard counters that a mag sorc does but it is not ok for mag sorcs to spec to burst and reasonably expect the same outcome. That is an unacceptable and non productive answer.

    You can absolutely get kills with those skills. Scorching Flare hits Nightblade, prevents cloak and puts on a monster DOT. .

    That monster 2k flame dmg over 3 sec...

    @ku5h

    Clearly you have not used Scorching Flare in ESO. It's not 2k flame damage over 3 seconds (those numbers sound like you are pulling them from base damage value wiki numbers). Fire up the game and slot it on a magicka character to see what it really hits for.
  • Bald_templar
    Bald_templar
    Soul Shriven
    Illuvatarr wrote: »

    It is a mathematical certainty that the reward you mention organically moves towards two parameters. The first is that each additional observation you have builds upon the experience of the prior observation and both naturally tend to form a normal distribution or bell curve if plotted on the x and y axis. The second is that the relationship, due to the normally distributed nature of the data moves closer and closer asymptotically to a linear relationship. In English, the more observations you add the more each additional observation establishes a solid mean or average for the data and the more linearly each can be plotted against the mean expectation of the data set. This bell curve will naturally establish a mean and a standard deviation (the standard deviation for non statistics folks is a number that shows, on average, how much each data point in the pool of data deviates from the global average).

    In the end, for batting averages, how many ladies you ask out and how many say yes to how many times you shoot the eightball in the corner pocket with a predesigned pool shot, all you ever need to guide you is these two numbers. Your average, telling you what to expect and your standard deviation, how much you can expect to deviate from that average each time you put your socks on in the morning.

    Long story short. An individual experience is irrelevant. The average experience based upon the experience of the entire data set is and that relationship comes closer and closer to linearity with each observation we add.

    4,000 observations is more than adequate to show the relationship hence why I chose the number.

    lol im not talking about the law of large number. My point is 75% dodge chance might be giving you same expectation as 75% mitigation, they are NOT equivalent when we are talking about the return. Simply because the return is much higher when your enemy is dead or in execute range. And due to the high burst nature of the sorc abilities, your numbers suggest nothing.


  • iCaliban
    iCaliban
    ✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    Dodge roll is easily accessible to every stamina build. No other class relies so much on projectiles that
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Perhaps. Maybe if those tools provided the same level of burst in close quarters as the classes that can utilize dodge and cloak most (stamina classes) you might have an argument. However, they don’t. Furthermore, they don’t address the fact that 82 percent damage mitigation is absurd and silly. If that is your rationale, my Daedric tomb should tooltip for 15k each mine to hard counter dodge rollers and nightblades since we are discussing good and intelligent design intentions.

    You are so hung up on this 82% damage mitigation of dodge and cloak, but there is a significant flaw in your argument. You are purposely ONLY using skills that can be dodged. You can't complain about not hitting people when you are making combat so much more difficult for yourself. Try working in some of these skills against people who are roll dodging against you:
    • Lightning Staff heavy attack
    • Restoration Staff heavy attack
    • Elemental Blockade
    • Encase
    • Rune Cage
    • Soul Assault

    These skills are much easier to use than Daedric Tomb, and they contribute to reducing damage mitigation of dodge to 0%. And I already talked in detail about how awesome Scorching Flare can be against Cloak. I'm giving you the tools to compete against opponents who are countering your burst package, but you keep ignoring them and reverting to your 82% damage mitigation argument, which only exists because you stubbornly insist on only using dodgeable skills against players who are dodging and cloaking.

    You listed rune cage as a counter to roll dodge. LMAO
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bad Sorcs are bad.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • WoppaBoem
    WoppaBoem
    ✭✭✭
    I play a magDK and I eat nightblades for lunch :D And yes by using skills mentioned by Grumpy.

    This post is really writting from the perspective I want to play like I want to play and the world should just follow suit so I can kill. Spoiled I think is the word that captures that mindset.

    Listen to the advice on the forums and use AOE and think like a NB where would they go after cloak? Get them out of cloak and they are so vulnerable. You will enjoy it. Good day.
    Xbox EU - EP for life

    MagDK - PVP Rock Star
    StamDen - PVP Spin to Win
    MagBlade - Casual PVE DD
  • danno8
    danno8
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    I haven't read the whole thread, but has anyone made the point that you are unable to do damage while cloaked without revealing yourself, unlike shields where you absorb damage and return fire at the same time?

    Also, all channels and GBAoE do full damage and reveal the NB, but shields are 100% damage mitigation with only Oblivion damage going through.
  • Derra
    Derra
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I won't speak to the particular argument between you and your friend, but I will say that I have had great success using Scorching Flare to turn a lot of "misses" into "hits."

    I wish scorching flare was good against anything else though...
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - Grand Overlord - Spotless Dro-m'Athra Destroyer pre one Tamriel
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - Grand Overlord
    ... - DC - NB

  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Derra wrote: »
    I won't speak to the particular argument between you and your friend, but I will say that I have had great success using Scorching Flare to turn a lot of "misses" into "hits."

    I wish scorching flare was good against anything else though...

    ^its too niche to run for just about any small to solo build.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • MalagenR
    MalagenR
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Perhaps. Maybe if those tools provided the same level of burst in close quarters as the classes that can utilize dodge and cloak most (stamina classes) you might have an argument. However, they don’t. Furthermore, they don’t address the fact that 82 percent damage mitigation is absurd and silly. If that is your rationale, my Daedric tomb should tooltip for 15k each mine to hard counter dodge rollers and nightblades since we are discussing good and intelligent design intentions.

    You are so hung up on this 82% damage mitigation of dodge and cloak, but there is a significant flaw in your argument. You are purposely ONLY using skills that can be dodged. You can't complain about not hitting people when you are making combat so much more difficult for yourself. Try working in some of these skills against people who are roll dodging against you:
    • Lightning Staff heavy attack
    • Restoration Staff heavy attack
    • Elemental Blockade
    • Encase
    • Rune Cage
    • Soul Assault

    These skills are much easier to use than Daedric Tomb, and they contribute to reducing damage mitigation of dodge to 0%. And I already talked in detail about how awesome Scorching Flare can be against Cloak. I'm giving you the tools to compete against opponents who are countering your burst package, but you keep ignoring them and reverting to your 82% damage mitigation argument, which only exists because you stubbornly insist on only using dodgeable skills against players who are dodging and cloaking.

    Respectfully you are missing the point. Those skills can be used and you aren’t going to kill anything. Most importantly, the point of the thread is that the the mitigation is too high for the listed skills. If you believe that isn’t so or that it should be that high please provide your reasons as to why. And I would kindly ask you to cite another class spec subject to that level of mitigation in their classes burst spec.

    You are basically telling me that it is ok for other classes to spec to do burst damage and not face the same level of damage mitigation or hard counters that a mag sorc does but it is not ok for mag sorcs to spec to burst and reasonably expect the same outcome. That is an unacceptable and non productive answer.

    The most hilarious part of this post is that there is currently a debate raging about how skills listed above should be nerfed, specifically blockade, encase, etc.

    Rune Cage already got nerfed and Soul Assault is the easiest skill to counter in the game by just holding block for 2 seconds.
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
    ✭✭✭✭
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Perhaps. Maybe if those tools provided the same level of burst in close quarters as the classes that can utilize dodge and cloak most (stamina classes) you might have an argument. However, they don’t. Furthermore, they don’t address the fact that 82 percent damage mitigation is absurd and silly. If that is your rationale, my Daedric tomb should tooltip for 15k each mine to hard counter dodge rollers and nightblades since we are discussing good and intelligent design intentions.

    Look man, that's exactly the problem of you and probably many other sorc players. You're still stuck in 2015 and think it should be ok to hide behind shields until your burst is ready and just delete someone with frags + curse on 40m range. Start trying to pull out more pressure instead of burst, do smart rotations instead of shieldspam until burst is ready and put a bit effort into your kills. If you take away the defense which allows me to stay alive against your sorc what would you give me in exchange? Can I get a 13k shield spammable as well? Or do we nerf shields down to a reasonable value?

    Use Overwhelming Surge set if dodge and Cloak bothers you so much, if you still have troubles against them with that set then I can't help you.

    Now we are talking turkey. First valid point of the thread addressing the issue.

    I agree 100 percent that I should not be able to blow you up from 40 meters away with impunity. (Which by the way I can still do against inexperienced players) Forcing me to use 4 ability slots and hide behind (literally) two pets that I cannot control should not be an option either. Using the pets as a bandaid without solid changes to this is not an option either. Ruining my offense so I cannot do anything to you is not an option and is the option Herr Wrobel and his band of merry men/women have chosen.

    Ruining the classes offense was the path they chose without considering the ramifications of this with apparently not giving a *** about the consequences of the decision.

    This is why I suggest the archmage class from warhammer as a good archetype to work off of. I should be able to pressure you. I should be able to make it hard but not impossible for you to close distance and I should be able to apply the same pressure you do with the same ease so the fights are dynamic, engaging and fun.

    Without a pet you won't kill a tank build or another shield user as well so I don't understand why you complain about Cloak and Dodge so much more than about the other defenses which are around equally strong. You act like it would be a sorc only issue but literally every class isn't able to kill anything unless you either stack absurd amounts of weapon/spelldmg or really strong pressure from bleeds or pets.

    Never played Warhammer so I can't really comment this. Problem with ESO is that everything boils down to either who has more dots/pressure or who has more burst.

    I am pointing out that 82 percent of my damage is mitigated. That’s a pretty valid concern and not sure why you don’t understand that.
    Illuvatarr wrote: »

    It is a mathematical certainty that the reward you mention organically moves towards two parameters. The first is that each additional observation you have builds upon the experience of the prior observation and both naturally tend to form a normal distribution or bell curve if plotted on the x and y axis. The second is that the relationship, due to the normally distributed nature of the data moves closer and closer asymptotically to a linear relationship. In English, the more observations you add the more each additional observation establishes a solid mean or average for the data and the more linearly each can be plotted against the mean expectation of the data set. This bell curve will naturally establish a mean and a standard deviation (the standard deviation for non statistics folks is a number that shows, on average, how much each data point in the pool of data deviates from the global average).

    In the end, for batting averages, how many ladies you ask out and how many say yes to how many times you shoot the eightball in the corner pocket with a predesigned pool shot, all you ever need to guide you is these two numbers. Your average, telling you what to expect and your standard deviation, how much you can expect to deviate from that average each time you put your socks on in the morning.

    Long story short. An individual experience is irrelevant. The average experience based upon the experience of the entire data set is and that relationship comes closer and closer to linearity with each observation we add.

    4,000 observations is more than adequate to show the relationship hence why I chose the number.

    lol im not talking about the law of large number. My point is 75% dodge chance might be giving you same expectation as 75% mitigation, they are NOT equivalent when we are talking about the return. Simply because the return is much higher when your enemy is dead or in execute range. And due to the high burst nature of the sorc abilities, your numbers suggest nothing.


    But you are.

    What you have pointed out is what statisticians refer to as heteroskedasticity. Heteroskedasticity refers to data points that that have variances and covariances that are either much greater or smaller than the variance of the entire data set.

    The classic example of this found in most graduate level econometrics (statistics for economists) textbooks is food consumption patterns based upon income levels. Low income individuals tend to almost exclusively eat inexpensive food so it is easy to plot the pattern on a graph and note the relationship. An individual with higher income might eat at Taco Bell the morning after a night of insane debauchery and then have a steak at a Vegas hotel later that day. The change in spending patterns skews the relationship between x and y and the pattern is inherently Heteroscedastic.

    This will not bias an attempt to find a line of best fit (the linear relationship I referred to above) but it can skew the overall variance or square root of that variance (standard deviation) if not accounted for. There are several methods to deal with this problem. The most common is to take the natural log of each data point and then use the “logarithmized” data for the analysis. There are reasons for doing this but they are beyond the scope of an ESO post. A less robust but nearly as effective way to do it is to normalize the data. That is why I made each do 1,000 points of damage so we can assess the actual hit/miss rate. One of the reasons I chose a 99 percent confidence interval as opposed to a 95 percent confidence interval is exactly because of the reason you pointed out. I wanted to ensure to be as conservative as possible so I could confidently give a range of possible values. All experiences are relevant as they contribute to the objective of finding out a range of misses and/or hits to assess damage mitigation. The amount of damage they do IS relevant but isn’t relevant to the hit/miss rate.

    We can discuss the damage variance in a separate thread if you like and I can show that over time like all other data sets it collapses on the average experience (ie I will have large hits and small hits but the average is what matters).

    Edited by Illuvatarr on February 13, 2019 7:52AM
Sign In or Register to comment.