70 percent of mag sorc attacks miss

fred4

Murador178 wrote: »

Or was the lag so bad that hits didnt register?

This!

I have stood in front of a single keep guard spamming Sweeps at point blank range and only one or two in 8 hits would register. This was, of course, in the midst of a big fight, in Vivec, PC EU, at prime time. It was not merely a visual or audio bug. The guard would not lose health. I don't know how that shows in combat logs, but it crossed my mind before and I meant to say it. It's particularly noticeable with Sweeps, but affects all classes.

I find Cyro unplayable, at prime time. It looks like stuff is happening, but it literally doesn't. My guild mates happily play, but I cannot. I keep joking it's because I know how the game is supposed to work. I usually abscond to IC.

Illuvatarr

Murador178 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

[/i

Murador178 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

You are also a player using 3 proc sets on pts and still failing.
With your limited knowledge on sorc and affinity for dk, I doubt you are a reliable or unbiased statistic.

Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.

Very nice attitude calling people out that I for sure know that they are not using any proc sets.... U should make an exposed vid of that imaginary magDk .

The numbers from OP make zero sense except he only attacked nbs. Considering there are alot of nbs in cyro - but still they arent near 50% of the players I dont know how he got the data. Was he dueling a medium armor stamblade in cyro for multiple hours or does he want to tell us that on no CP the typical mDk/stam DK mSorc are rolling all over the place . Or was he just trying to spam light attacks on a rolldodger. so missing 80% of the hits vs a stamblade is still bad play not timing attacks well at all. As long as he cant even show some data its just a claim:

I can also say I went cyro and 90% of my attacks got blocked and still nobody would believe me.

His statement of saying its 100% migation if he takes resists in account makes zero sense aswell. Resists are only calculated on the remaing attacks hitting him --> resulting in the taken dmg -hitchance claimed to about 20%:

takendmg% = 20% * (100% - migation%)

Murador178 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

You are also a player using 3 proc sets on pts and still failing.
With your limited knowledge on sorc and affinity for dk, I doubt you are a reliable or unbiased statistic.

Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.

Very nice attitude calling people out that I for sure know that they are not using any proc sets.... U should make an exposed vid of that imaginary magDk .

The numbers from OP make zero sense except he only attacked nbs. Considering there are alot of nbs in cyro - but still they arent near 50% of the players I dont know how he got the data. Was he dueling a medium armor stamblade in cyro for multiple hours or does he want to tell us that on no CP the typical mDk/stam DK mSorc are rolling all over the place . Or was he just trying to spam light attacks on a rolldodger. so missing 80% of the hits vs a stamblade is still bad play not timing attacks well at all. As long as he cant even show some data its just a claim:

I can also say I went cyro and 90% of my attacks got blocked and still nobody would believe me.

His statement of saying its 100% migation if he takes resists in account makes zero sense aswell. Resists are only calculated on the remaing attacks hitting him --> resulting in the taken dmg -hitchance claimed to about 20%:

takendmg% = 20% * (100% - migation%)

Incorrect. 73.3 percent were combined misses and dodges. CP pvp. Mixed classes. The 82.4 percent includes the potential damage mitigation after attacks landed of your average stamblade with 23k resists. It is the center point of the confidence interval and I assure you the confidence interval itself captures a 99 percent chance the true overall mitigation is within it.

Miss chance on shuffle and double take have been removed. So ur claiming all those magicka classes are also dodgeroll monkeys? Or was the lag so bad that hits didnt register? Otherwise there is only one option to get so many misses thats being not able to hold the mouse cursor over ur target... I saw a thread complaining of not being able to hit opponents because of hitboxes. Maybe thats ur problem.

PS: a screenshot of ur statics would be nice aswell - otherwise it stays a claim.

My statics? Does not compute.

tunepunk

One thing I've noticed about PVP is that it's really hard at times to actually land hits. Even against people who are not roll dodging or using cloak. Just random movement and they are not in your crosshair anymore.

Just to get that hit box lined up can be tricky in itself in high paced battle with people moving around.

I've played around with different skills, sets, and tactics to land as much hits as possible, and came to the conclusion that proc sets are generally very good in PvP. Especially those that doesn't require you to target someone. That's why spin to win is a good tactic in pvp. Especially if you pair that with sets like, way of the fire, or torug's pact + infused weapons, which both can proc when weapon skills do damage. People can be behind you and you can hit them with Steel tornado, weapon enchant + proc set damage on one skill press that doesn't require a target. They just need to be close enough.

Unless you're really good at targeting proc sets can help a lot. They are usually unreliable, like fairly low chance to proc, but they help you at least get more hits.

Examples: Drop en elemental blockade, and use sets that trigger if someone is standing in it. (You'd be surprised how few people actually move out of area effects in pvp, they know they are relatively low dps, so they are bent on killing you before your ground effect can do any significant harm to them.) Dropping a ground effect You have a large are covered that can trigger your sets.

The downsides of proc sets are that you can't chose the target. They can hit anyone in your ground effect. But at least you get more hits in. They might not hit your intended target but that's a fair trade.

Putting all eggs in one basket.... like making your snipes deliver a devastating hits, you gotta be prepared that it can miss, so you have to chose wisely when to use it.

For hard to hit targets, use skills that don't require a target and let your ground effects or area skills like blockade, spin to win, Acid spray, and other similar skills to deliver the procs to target.

I'm not very good at targeting so I try to do a fairly balanced combination of skill and proc damage. You don't have to go all in for proc sets, but choosing skills that doesn't require targets is a good start, and maybe move a portion of your damage output to maybe 1 proc set.

Irylia

Murador178 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

You are also a player using 3 proc sets on pts and still failing.
With your limited knowledge on sorc and affinity for dk, I doubt you are a reliable or unbiased statistic.

Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.

Very nice attitude calling people out that I for sure know that they are not using any proc sets.... U should make an exposed vid of that imaginary magDk .

The numbers from OP make zero sense except he only attacked nbs. Considering there are alot of nbs in cyro - but still they arent near 50% of the players I dont know how he got the data. Was he dueling a medium armor stamblade in cyro for multiple hours or does he want to tell us that on no CP the typical mDk/stam DK mSorc are rolling all over the place . Or was he just trying to spam light attacks on a rolldodgers. So missing 80% of the hits vs a stamblade is still bad play not timing attacks well at all. As long as he cant even show some data its just a claim:

I can also say I went cyro and 90% of my attacks got blocked and still nobody would believe me. My story to the data is I hit 1000 people and 900 attacks got blocked . I claim ur numbers are manupilated because it sounds cooler or u did one of things above.

His statement of saying its 100% migation if he takes resists in account makes zero sense aswell. Resists are only calculated on the remaing attacks hitting him --> resulting in the taken dmg (hitchance claimed to about 20%):

takendmg% = 20% * (100% - migation%)

Never said magdk

Ragnaroek93

Irylia wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

You are also a player using 3 proc sets on pts and still failing.
With your limited knowledge on sorc and affinity for dk, I doubt you are a reliable or unbiased statistic.

Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.

Very nice attitude calling people out that I for sure know that they are not using any proc sets.... U should make an exposed vid of that imaginary magDk .

The numbers from OP make zero sense except he only attacked nbs. Considering there are alot of nbs in cyro - but still they arent near 50% of the players I dont know how he got the data. Was he dueling a medium armor stamblade in cyro for multiple hours or does he want to tell us that on no CP the typical mDk/stam DK mSorc are rolling all over the place . Or was he just trying to spam light attacks on a rolldodgers. So missing 80% of the hits vs a stamblade is still bad play not timing attacks well at all. As long as he cant even show some data its just a claim:

I can also say I went cyro and 90% of my attacks got blocked and still nobody would believe me. My story to the data is I hit 1000 people and 900 attacks got blocked . I claim ur numbers are manupilated because it sounds cooler or u did one of things above.

His statement of saying its 100% migation if he takes resists in account makes zero sense aswell. Resists are only calculated on the remaing attacks hitting him --> resulting in the taken dmg (hitchance claimed to about 20%):

takendmg% = 20% * (100% - migation%)

Never said magdk

Haven't played any of my classes (which were only stamnb and magsorc) with any proc set beside Shadowrend on sorc

Murador178

Irylia wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

You are also a player using 3 proc sets on pts and still failing.
With your limited knowledge on sorc and affinity for dk, I doubt you are a reliable or unbiased statistic.

Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.

Very nice attitude calling people out that I for sure know that they are not using any proc sets.... U should make an exposed vid of that imaginary magDk .

The numbers from OP make zero sense except he only attacked nbs. Considering there are alot of nbs in cyro - but still they arent near 50% of the players I dont know how he got the data. Was he dueling a medium armor stamblade in cyro for multiple hours or does he want to tell us that on no CP the typical mDk/stam DK mSorc are rolling all over the place . Or was he just trying to spam light attacks on a rolldodgers. So missing 80% of the hits vs a stamblade is still bad play not timing attacks well at all. As long as he cant even show some data its just a claim:

I can also say I went cyro and 90% of my attacks got blocked and still nobody would believe me. My story to the data is I hit 1000 people and 900 attacks got blocked . I claim ur numbers are manupilated because it sounds cooler or u did one of things above.

His statement of saying its 100% migation if he takes resists in account makes zero sense aswell. Resists are only calculated on the remaing attacks hitting him --> resulting in the taken dmg (hitchance claimed to about 20%):

takendmg% = 20% * (100% - migation%)

Never said magdk

So u where talking about a stam dk with 3 proc sets - thats a meme build .

idk

It seems OP and his friend disagree on technicalities. A good magicka players who utilizes shields can mitigate much of the damage they receive via shields (and can dodge roll some as well).

That is really what it comes down to. Players who develop their skills can mitigate damage more successfully than those who do not. It is good to have a game that rewards skill.

Illuvatarr

Murador178 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

You are also a player using 3 proc sets on pts and still failing.
With your limited knowledge on sorc and affinity for dk, I doubt you are a reliable or unbiased statistic.

Sorcs can still be pressured while wards up and will have to recast x times while being attacked which equates to a greater mag loss than a cloak for a full duration with full sustain return.

Very nice attitude calling people out that I for sure know that they are not using any proc sets.... U should make an exposed vid of that imaginary magDk .

The numbers from OP make zero sense except he only attacked nbs. Considering there are alot of nbs in cyro - but still they arent near 50% of the players I dont know how he got the data. Was he dueling a medium armor stamblade in cyro for multiple hours or does he want to tell us that on no CP the typical mDk/stam DK mSorc are rolling all over the place . Or was he just trying to spam light attacks on a rolldodgers. So missing 80% of the hits vs a stamblade is still bad play not timing attacks well at all. As long as he cant even show some data its just a claim:

I can also say I went cyro and 90% of my attacks got blocked and still nobody would believe me. My story to the data is I hit 1000 people and 900 attacks got blocked . I claim ur numbers are manupilated because it sounds cooler or u did one of things above.

His statement of saying its 100% migation if he takes resists in account makes zero sense aswell. Resists are only calculated on the remaing attacks hitting him --> resulting in the taken dmg (hitchance claimed to about 20%):

takendmg% = 20% * (100% - migation%)

You misread what I said. I never said all damage is 100 percent mitigated. Reread the 2nd post closely. I break mitigated damage and binary damage into two separate pieces. It is the entire premise of what I wrote actually.

I would encourage you to read posts before just saying what you feel should be right.

Icarus42

Throw daedric curse on the cloaking nightblade, wait till it pops, destructive clench with a frost staff to root then soul assault and laugh as they try to roll dodge that! Kills them most of the time, it also turns them into a dust pile, which is quite a satisfying experience. This only works if you are a sorc of course. I also use magelight detect pots and streak pops them out also. I am a nightblade killing machine, and I built this way on purpose, because I cant stand those cloaking b*stards.

NyassaV

Ok seeing as Sorc has a number of undodgable skills such as streak, Atro's beam attack, Curse, Mines, Familiar Pulse, ect ect ect... I find it highly unlikely for you to miss 70% of your attacks unless you are playing terribly against a Player on the defensive (which is sounds like you were)

In a 1v1 where you guys were actually fighting one another then it wouldn't be more than 50% of attacks dodged and even then that's a lot.

Illuvatarr

NyassaV wrote: »

Ok seeing as Sorc has a number of undodgable skills such as streak, Atro's beam attack, Curse, Mines, Familiar Pulse, ect ect ect... I find it highly unlikely for you to miss 70% of your attacks unless you are playing terribly against a Player on the defensive (which is sounds like you were)

In a 1v1 where you guys were actually fighting one another then it wouldn't be more than 50% of attacks dodged and even then that's a lot.

The only thing it sounds like is that you have the reading comprehension skills of an obscure rock on Mars or you didn’t read the post.

NyassaV

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Ok seeing as Sorc has a number of undodgable skills such as streak, Atro's beam attack, Curse, Mines, Familiar Pulse, ect ect ect... I find it highly unlikely for you to miss 70% of your attacks unless you are playing terribly against a Player on the defensive (which is sounds like you were)

In a 1v1 where you guys were actually fighting one another then it wouldn't be more than 50% of attacks dodged and even then that's a lot.

The only thing it sounds like is that you have the reading comprehension skills of an obscure rock on Mars or you didn’t read the post.

I did, I simply made a number of assumptions based off the information you gave.

If a good player is on the defensive you probably won't hit them but as a sorc you have a great many undodgable skills so don't complain as much. If it's too much to handle then streak way.

Illuvatarr

NyassaV wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Ok seeing as Sorc has a number of undodgable skills such as streak, Atro's beam attack, Curse, Mines, Familiar Pulse, ect ect ect... I find it highly unlikely for you to miss 70% of your attacks unless you are playing terribly against a Player on the defensive (which is sounds like you were)

In a 1v1 where you guys were actually fighting one another then it wouldn't be more than 50% of attacks dodged and even then that's a lot.

The only thing it sounds like is that you have the reading comprehension skills of an obscure rock on Mars or you didn’t read the post.

I did, I simply made a number of assumptions based off the information you gave.

If a good player is on the defensive you probably won't hit them but as a sorc you have a great many undodgable skills so don't complain as much. If it's too much to handle then streak way.

My burst should function just as well as yours or anyone else’s. It should land with the same ease. Telling me that I should be forced to slot non class skills or that mag sorcs should not be allowed to burst like other classes (which is what you are really saying even if you didn’t think that) is a silly response.

Sanctum74

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Ok seeing as Sorc has a number of undodgable skills such as streak, Atro's beam attack, Curse, Mines, Familiar Pulse, ect ect ect... I find it highly unlikely for you to miss 70% of your attacks unless you are playing terribly against a Player on the defensive (which is sounds like you were)

In a 1v1 where you guys were actually fighting one another then it wouldn't be more than 50% of attacks dodged and even then that's a lot.

The only thing it sounds like is that you have the reading comprehension skills of an obscure rock on Mars or you didn’t read the post.

I did, I simply made a number of assumptions based off the information you gave.

If a good player is on the defensive you probably won't hit them but as a sorc you have a great many undodgable skills so don't complain as much. If it's too much to handle then streak way.

My burst should function just as well as yours or anyone else’s. It should land with the same ease. Telling me that I should be forced to slot non class skills or that mag sorcs should not be allowed to burst like other classes (which is what you are really saying even if you didn’t think that) is a silly response.

No, your burst should not function as well as someone else's. It should always be based on your skill level, rotation, build, and choice of skills. Sorry no free passes just because you're a sorc or max cp.

If you choose to use skills, builds, or rotations that are not effective or your skill level is not up to the person you are fighting against then again, NO your burst should not function as well as theirs.

Sorry, not trying to be a jerk, but you've had dozens of people trying to help you, but you are still stuck on your false missed percentages which have absolutely nothing to do with sorc, but rather your own personal play style and skill level.

Illuvatarr

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Ok seeing as Sorc has a number of undodgable skills such as streak, Atro's beam attack, Curse, Mines, Familiar Pulse, ect ect ect... I find it highly unlikely for you to miss 70% of your attacks unless you are playing terribly against a Player on the defensive (which is sounds like you were)

In a 1v1 where you guys were actually fighting one another then it wouldn't be more than 50% of attacks dodged and even then that's a lot.

The only thing it sounds like is that you have the reading comprehension skills of an obscure rock on Mars or you didn’t read the post.

I did, I simply made a number of assumptions based off the information you gave.

If a good player is on the defensive you probably won't hit them but as a sorc you have a great many undodgable skills so don't complain as much. If it's too much to handle then streak way.

My burst should function just as well as yours or anyone else’s. It should land with the same ease. Telling me that I should be forced to slot non class skills or that mag sorcs should not be allowed to burst like other classes (which is what you are really saying even if you didn’t think that) is a silly response.

No, your burst should not function as well as someone else's. It should always be based on your skill level, rotation, build, and choice of skills. Sorry no free passes just because you're a sorc or max cp.

If you choose to use skills, builds, or rotations that are not effective or your skill level is not up to the person you are fighting against then again, NO your burst should not function as well as theirs.

Sorry, not trying to be a jerk, but you've had dozens of people trying to help you, but you are still stuck on your false missed percentages which have absolutely nothing to do with sorc, but rather your own personal play style and skill level.

Mag sorc burst (not Illuvatar the mag sorc, but mag sorcs in general) should land just as easily as any other class. You arent being a jerk but like your first post you are showing either bias or you still are missing the point. You are basically saying to not use frags, to not use crushing shock, to not light attack with projectiles, to not use overload light attacks and to completely change the way mag sorcs have played for the past five years to fit your narrative. That is an unacceptable response in my opinion.

Don’t need help. The problem is obvious. They overnerfed mag sorc offense. You can disagree with that if you like but the numbers are the numbers. You can make it personal like you have but all you have contributed is flames to the post without adding anything substantive. Your opinion is your opinion but it is meaningless without data backing it. The problem is systemic. They broke mag sorc offense and it needs a rework.

Sanctum74

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Ok seeing as Sorc has a number of undodgable skills such as streak, Atro's beam attack, Curse, Mines, Familiar Pulse, ect ect ect... I find it highly unlikely for you to miss 70% of your attacks unless you are playing terribly against a Player on the defensive (which is sounds like you were)

In a 1v1 where you guys were actually fighting one another then it wouldn't be more than 50% of attacks dodged and even then that's a lot.

The only thing it sounds like is that you have the reading comprehension skills of an obscure rock on Mars or you didn’t read the post.

I did, I simply made a number of assumptions based off the information you gave.

If a good player is on the defensive you probably won't hit them but as a sorc you have a great many undodgable skills so don't complain as much. If it's too much to handle then streak way.

My burst should function just as well as yours or anyone else’s. It should land with the same ease. Telling me that I should be forced to slot non class skills or that mag sorcs should not be allowed to burst like other classes (which is what you are really saying even if you didn’t think that) is a silly response.

No, your burst should not function as well as someone else's. It should always be based on your skill level, rotation, build, and choice of skills. Sorry no free passes just because you're a sorc or max cp.

If you choose to use skills, builds, or rotations that are not effective or your skill level is not up to the person you are fighting against then again, NO your burst should not function as well as theirs.

Sorry, not trying to be a jerk, but you've had dozens of people trying to help you, but you are still stuck on your false missed percentages which have absolutely nothing to do with sorc, but rather your own personal play style and skill level.

Mag sorc burst (not Illuvatar the mag sorc, but mag sorcs in general) should land just as easily as any other class. You arent being a jerk but like your first post you are showing either bias or you still are missing the point. You are basically saying to not use frags, to not use crushing shock, to not light attack with projectiles, to not use overload light attacks and to completely change the way mag sorcs have played for the past five years to fit your narrative. That is an unacceptable response in my opinion.

Don’t need help. The problem is obvious. They overnerfed mag sorc offense. You can disagree with that if you like but the numbers are the numbers. You can make it personal like you have but all you have contributed is flames to the post without adding anything substantive. Your opinion is your opinion but it is meaningless without data backing it. The problem is systemic. They broke mag sorc offense and it needs a rework.

Sorry, but you're way off base. Many of us mag sorcs are doing just fine and again your missed skills percentages are based solely on your own skill level and play style and are not representative of mag sorcs as a whole. No bias or missed point there, just facts.

Personally I use curse, frags, reach, crushing shock, fury, and streak. Maybe 15% of my attacks miss, but that's because I setup my combos properly. You also have rune cage if you choose so there is absolutely no reason why 70% of your attacks should miss unless it's a skill level(or Meridias blessing set) which if you are willing to learn, take advice, and adapt your build then you will get better and that 70% missed attacks number will start going down drastically.

We can go on for days and do pages of back and forth, but ultimately Zos is never going to nerf or buff something based on one persons personal experience that has nothing to do with reality. You have choices if you don't want to use them then that's on you.

Illuvatarr

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Ok seeing as Sorc has a number of undodgable skills such as streak, Atro's beam attack, Curse, Mines, Familiar Pulse, ect ect ect... I find it highly unlikely for you to miss 70% of your attacks unless you are playing terribly against a Player on the defensive (which is sounds like you were)

In a 1v1 where you guys were actually fighting one another then it wouldn't be more than 50% of attacks dodged and even then that's a lot.

The only thing it sounds like is that you have the reading comprehension skills of an obscure rock on Mars or you didn’t read the post.

I did, I simply made a number of assumptions based off the information you gave.

If a good player is on the defensive you probably won't hit them but as a sorc you have a great many undodgable skills so don't complain as much. If it's too much to handle then streak way.

My burst should function just as well as yours or anyone else’s. It should land with the same ease. Telling me that I should be forced to slot non class skills or that mag sorcs should not be allowed to burst like other classes (which is what you are really saying even if you didn’t think that) is a silly response.

No, your burst should not function as well as someone else's. It should always be based on your skill level, rotation, build, and choice of skills. Sorry no free passes just because you're a sorc or max cp.

If you choose to use skills, builds, or rotations that are not effective or your skill level is not up to the person you are fighting against then again, NO your burst should not function as well as theirs.

Sorry, not trying to be a jerk, but you've had dozens of people trying to help you, but you are still stuck on your false missed percentages which have absolutely nothing to do with sorc, but rather your own personal play style and skill level.

Mag sorc burst (not Illuvatar the mag sorc, but mag sorcs in general) should land just as easily as any other class. You arent being a jerk but like your first post you are showing either bias or you still are missing the point. You are basically saying to not use frags, to not use crushing shock, to not light attack with projectiles, to not use overload light attacks and to completely change the way mag sorcs have played for the past five years to fit your narrative. That is an unacceptable response in my opinion.

Don’t need help. The problem is obvious. They overnerfed mag sorc offense. You can disagree with that if you like but the numbers are the numbers. You can make it personal like you have but all you have contributed is flames to the post without adding anything substantive. Your opinion is your opinion but it is meaningless without data backing it. The problem is systemic. They broke mag sorc offense and it needs a rework.

Sorry, but you're way off base. Many of us mag sorcs are doing just fine and again your missed skills percentages are based solely on your own skill level and play style and are not representative of mag sorcs as a whole. No bias or missed point there, just facts.

Personally I use curse, frags, reach, crushing shock, fury, and streak. Maybe 15% of my attacks miss, but that's because I setup my combos properly. You also have rune cage if you choose so there is absolutely no reason why 70% of your attacks should miss unless it's a skill level(or Meridias blessing set) which if you are willing to learn, take advice, and adapt your build then you will get better and that 70% missed attacks number will start going down drastically.

We can go on for days and do pages of back and forth, but ultimately Zos is never going to nerf or buff something based on one persons personal experience that has nothing to do with reality. You have choices if you don't want to use them then that's on you.

There is simply no way 15 percent of your projectile attacks miss. That is impossible Simply no way especially in cp with spam dodge rollers. I will concede that lag may have played huge part as it was on Vivek and I don’t see near the miss rate on non cp but you are doing your class no favors by being a white knight for the nerfs to the classes offense. And yes ZOS has already said they were aware there were over nerfs.

Don’t know if I need any advice. It isn’t hard to place a target on someone and hit a button....

Sanctum74

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Ok seeing as Sorc has a number of undodgable skills such as streak, Atro's beam attack, Curse, Mines, Familiar Pulse, ect ect ect... I find it highly unlikely for you to miss 70% of your attacks unless you are playing terribly against a Player on the defensive (which is sounds like you were)

In a 1v1 where you guys were actually fighting one another then it wouldn't be more than 50% of attacks dodged and even then that's a lot.

The only thing it sounds like is that you have the reading comprehension skills of an obscure rock on Mars or you didn’t read the post.

I did, I simply made a number of assumptions based off the information you gave.

If a good player is on the defensive you probably won't hit them but as a sorc you have a great many undodgable skills so don't complain as much. If it's too much to handle then streak way.

My burst should function just as well as yours or anyone else’s. It should land with the same ease. Telling me that I should be forced to slot non class skills or that mag sorcs should not be allowed to burst like other classes (which is what you are really saying even if you didn’t think that) is a silly response.

No, your burst should not function as well as someone else's. It should always be based on your skill level, rotation, build, and choice of skills. Sorry no free passes just because you're a sorc or max cp.

If you choose to use skills, builds, or rotations that are not effective or your skill level is not up to the person you are fighting against then again, NO your burst should not function as well as theirs.

Sorry, not trying to be a jerk, but you've had dozens of people trying to help you, but you are still stuck on your false missed percentages which have absolutely nothing to do with sorc, but rather your own personal play style and skill level.

Mag sorc burst (not Illuvatar the mag sorc, but mag sorcs in general) should land just as easily as any other class. You arent being a jerk but like your first post you are showing either bias or you still are missing the point. You are basically saying to not use frags, to not use crushing shock, to not light attack with projectiles, to not use overload light attacks and to completely change the way mag sorcs have played for the past five years to fit your narrative. That is an unacceptable response in my opinion.

Don’t need help. The problem is obvious. They overnerfed mag sorc offense. You can disagree with that if you like but the numbers are the numbers. You can make it personal like you have but all you have contributed is flames to the post without adding anything substantive. Your opinion is your opinion but it is meaningless without data backing it. The problem is systemic. They broke mag sorc offense and it needs a rework.

Sorry, but you're way off base. Many of us mag sorcs are doing just fine and again your missed skills percentages are based solely on your own skill level and play style and are not representative of mag sorcs as a whole. No bias or missed point there, just facts.

Personally I use curse, frags, reach, crushing shock, fury, and streak. Maybe 15% of my attacks miss, but that's because I setup my combos properly. You also have rune cage if you choose so there is absolutely no reason why 70% of your attacks should miss unless it's a skill level(or Meridias blessing set) which if you are willing to learn, take advice, and adapt your build then you will get better and that 70% missed attacks number will start going down drastically.

We can go on for days and do pages of back and forth, but ultimately Zos is never going to nerf or buff something based on one persons personal experience that has nothing to do with reality. You have choices if you don't want to use them then that's on you.

Don’t know if I need any advice. It isn’t hard to place a target on someone and hit a button....

That comment pretty much sums it up, if you're not timing your burst combo around your cc and using your reflectable skills at the right time then you will not be effective. No amount of nerfs or buffs will change that.

Illuvatarr

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Ok seeing as Sorc has a number of undodgable skills such as streak, Atro's beam attack, Curse, Mines, Familiar Pulse, ect ect ect... I find it highly unlikely for you to miss 70% of your attacks unless you are playing terribly against a Player on the defensive (which is sounds like you were)

In a 1v1 where you guys were actually fighting one another then it wouldn't be more than 50% of attacks dodged and even then that's a lot.

The only thing it sounds like is that you have the reading comprehension skills of an obscure rock on Mars or you didn’t read the post.

I did, I simply made a number of assumptions based off the information you gave.

If a good player is on the defensive you probably won't hit them but as a sorc you have a great many undodgable skills so don't complain as much. If it's too much to handle then streak way.

My burst should function just as well as yours or anyone else’s. It should land with the same ease. Telling me that I should be forced to slot non class skills or that mag sorcs should not be allowed to burst like other classes (which is what you are really saying even if you didn’t think that) is a silly response.

No, your burst should not function as well as someone else's. It should always be based on your skill level, rotation, build, and choice of skills. Sorry no free passes just because you're a sorc or max cp.

If you choose to use skills, builds, or rotations that are not effective or your skill level is not up to the person you are fighting against then again, NO your burst should not function as well as theirs.

Sorry, not trying to be a jerk, but you've had dozens of people trying to help you, but you are still stuck on your false missed percentages which have absolutely nothing to do with sorc, but rather your own personal play style and skill level.

Mag sorc burst (not Illuvatar the mag sorc, but mag sorcs in general) should land just as easily as any other class. You arent being a jerk but like your first post you are showing either bias or you still are missing the point. You are basically saying to not use frags, to not use crushing shock, to not light attack with projectiles, to not use overload light attacks and to completely change the way mag sorcs have played for the past five years to fit your narrative. That is an unacceptable response in my opinion.

Don’t need help. The problem is obvious. They overnerfed mag sorc offense. You can disagree with that if you like but the numbers are the numbers. You can make it personal like you have but all you have contributed is flames to the post without adding anything substantive. Your opinion is your opinion but it is meaningless without data backing it. The problem is systemic. They broke mag sorc offense and it needs a rework.

Sorry, but you're way off base. Many of us mag sorcs are doing just fine and again your missed skills percentages are based solely on your own skill level and play style and are not representative of mag sorcs as a whole. No bias or missed point there, just facts.

Personally I use curse, frags, reach, crushing shock, fury, and streak. Maybe 15% of my attacks miss, but that's because I setup my combos properly. You also have rune cage if you choose so there is absolutely no reason why 70% of your attacks should miss unless it's a skill level(or Meridias blessing set) which if you are willing to learn, take advice, and adapt your build then you will get better and that 70% missed attacks number will start going down drastically.

We can go on for days and do pages of back and forth, but ultimately Zos is never going to nerf or buff something based on one persons personal experience that has nothing to do with reality. You have choices if you don't want to use them then that's on you.

Don’t know if I need any advice. It isn’t hard to place a target on someone and hit a button....

That comment pretty much sums it up, if you're not timing your burst combo around your cc and using your reflectable skills at the right time then you will not be effective. No amount of nerfs or buffs will change that.

Pretty much sums it up? How did you extrapolate I am not using my burst combo or timing it right from that comment? I was giving lessons to a couple of AD players in Cyro the other morning on how to do just that. (and I play DC.....)

You are making a large number of assumptions and your 15 percent miss rate may have been true prior to the mag sorc nerfs. However, there is no way it is true in Murkmire (not doubting your veracity but maybe you are OG and living the mag sorc dream).

Sanctum74

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Ok seeing as Sorc has a number of undodgable skills such as streak, Atro's beam attack, Curse, Mines, Familiar Pulse, ect ect ect... I find it highly unlikely for you to miss 70% of your attacks unless you are playing terribly against a Player on the defensive (which is sounds like you were)

In a 1v1 where you guys were actually fighting one another then it wouldn't be more than 50% of attacks dodged and even then that's a lot.

The only thing it sounds like is that you have the reading comprehension skills of an obscure rock on Mars or you didn’t read the post.

I did, I simply made a number of assumptions based off the information you gave.

If a good player is on the defensive you probably won't hit them but as a sorc you have a great many undodgable skills so don't complain as much. If it's too much to handle then streak way.

My burst should function just as well as yours or anyone else’s. It should land with the same ease. Telling me that I should be forced to slot non class skills or that mag sorcs should not be allowed to burst like other classes (which is what you are really saying even if you didn’t think that) is a silly response.

No, your burst should not function as well as someone else's. It should always be based on your skill level, rotation, build, and choice of skills. Sorry no free passes just because you're a sorc or max cp.

If you choose to use skills, builds, or rotations that are not effective or your skill level is not up to the person you are fighting against then again, NO your burst should not function as well as theirs.

Sorry, not trying to be a jerk, but you've had dozens of people trying to help you, but you are still stuck on your false missed percentages which have absolutely nothing to do with sorc, but rather your own personal play style and skill level.

Mag sorc burst (not Illuvatar the mag sorc, but mag sorcs in general) should land just as easily as any other class. You arent being a jerk but like your first post you are showing either bias or you still are missing the point. You are basically saying to not use frags, to not use crushing shock, to not light attack with projectiles, to not use overload light attacks and to completely change the way mag sorcs have played for the past five years to fit your narrative. That is an unacceptable response in my opinion.

Don’t need help. The problem is obvious. They overnerfed mag sorc offense. You can disagree with that if you like but the numbers are the numbers. You can make it personal like you have but all you have contributed is flames to the post without adding anything substantive. Your opinion is your opinion but it is meaningless without data backing it. The problem is systemic. They broke mag sorc offense and it needs a rework.

Sorry, but you're way off base. Many of us mag sorcs are doing just fine and again your missed skills percentages are based solely on your own skill level and play style and are not representative of mag sorcs as a whole. No bias or missed point there, just facts.

Personally I use curse, frags, reach, crushing shock, fury, and streak. Maybe 15% of my attacks miss, but that's because I setup my combos properly. You also have rune cage if you choose so there is absolutely no reason why 70% of your attacks should miss unless it's a skill level(or Meridias blessing set) which if you are willing to learn, take advice, and adapt your build then you will get better and that 70% missed attacks number will start going down drastically.

We can go on for days and do pages of back and forth, but ultimately Zos is never going to nerf or buff something based on one persons personal experience that has nothing to do with reality. You have choices if you don't want to use them then that's on you.

Don’t know if I need any advice. It isn’t hard to place a target on someone and hit a button....

That comment pretty much sums it up, if you're not timing your burst combo around your cc and using your reflectable skills at the right time then you will not be effective. No amount of nerfs or buffs will change that.

Pretty much sums it up? How did you extrapolate I am not using my burst combo or timing it right from that comment? I was giving lessons to a couple of AD players in Cyro the other morning on how to do just that. (and I play DC.....)

You are making a large number of assumptions and your 15 percent miss rate may have been true prior to the mag sorc nerfs. However, there is no way it is true in Murkmire (not doubting your veracity but maybe you are OG and living the mag sorc dream).

No assumptions needed, your 70% miss rate proves that, unless your math is off?

Either way with the evasion and dodge roll changes you should have less misses since Murkmire, not more.

Bald_templar

[/quote]

lol im not talking about the law of large number. My point is 75% dodge chance might be giving you same expectation as 75% mitigation, they are NOT equivalent when we are talking about the return. Simply because the return is much higher when your enemy is dead or in execute range. And due to the high burst nature of the sorc abilities, your numbers suggest nothing.


[/quote]

But you are.

What you have pointed out is what statisticians refer to as heteroskedasticity. Heteroskedasticity refers to data points that that have variances and covariances that are either much greater or smaller than the variance of the entire data set.

The classic example of this found in most graduate level econometrics (statistics for economists) textbooks is food consumption patterns based upon income levels. Low income individuals tend to almost exclusively eat inexpensive food so it is easy to plot the pattern on a graph and note the relationship. An individual with higher income might eat at Taco Bell the morning after a night of insane debauchery and then have a steak at a Vegas hotel later that day. The change in spending patterns skews the relationship between x and y and the pattern is inherently Heteroscedastic.

This will not bias an attempt to find a line of best fit (the linear relationship I referred to above) but it can skew the overall variance or square root of that variance (standard deviation) if not accounted for. There are several methods to deal with this problem. The most common is to take the natural log of each data point and then use the “logarithmized” data for the analysis. There are reasons for doing this but they are beyond the scope of an ESO post. A less robust but nearly as effective way to do it is to normalize the data. That is why I made each do 1,000 points of damage so we can assess the actual hit/miss rate. One of the reasons I chose a 99 percent confidence interval as opposed to a 95 percent confidence interval is exactly because of the reason you pointed out. I wanted to ensure to be as conservative as possible so I could confidently give a range of possible values. All experiences are relevant as they contribute to the objective of finding out a range of misses and/or hits to assess damage mitigation. The amount of damage they do IS relevant but isn’t relevant to the hit/miss rate.

We can discuss the damage variance in a separate thread if you like and I can show that over time like all other data sets it collapses on the average experience (ie I will have large hits and small hits but the average is what matters).

[/quote]

I am not talking about heteroskedasticity or questioning your methods of statistics. What I am saying is when you consider the equivalence of roll dodge mitigation and actual mitigation, you are comparing the damage done. However, my opinion is that one should actually consider other factors like healing done over time and opportunity kills and build a different comparison model for these 2 types of mitigation. Damage done is effective only when your target has a large amount of health or say, infinite health which will negate, for example, the surprising element of high burst damage.

If your target is running a high mitigation but low dodge rate build, this type of surprising element should not exist.
If your target is running a dodge build, although on average, they can mitigate your dmg as an actual mitigation build, once they get hit, they are very likely dead. So yes, on average, 75 or 81% of your damage is being mitigated by roll dodge, but that does not means you are actually fighting a 75% or 81% mitigation build (for example a perma block build).

idk

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Ok seeing as Sorc has a number of undodgable skills such as streak, Atro's beam attack, Curse, Mines, Familiar Pulse, ect ect ect... I find it highly unlikely for you to miss 70% of your attacks unless you are playing terribly against a Player on the defensive (which is sounds like you were)

In a 1v1 where you guys were actually fighting one another then it wouldn't be more than 50% of attacks dodged and even then that's a lot.

The only thing it sounds like is that you have the reading comprehension skills of an obscure rock on Mars or you didn’t read the post.

I did, I simply made a number of assumptions based off the information you gave.

If a good player is on the defensive you probably won't hit them but as a sorc you have a great many undodgable skills so don't complain as much. If it's too much to handle then streak way.

My burst should function just as well as yours or anyone else’s. It should land with the same ease. Telling me that I should be forced to slot non class skills or that mag sorcs should not be allowed to burst like other classes (which is what you are really saying even if you didn’t think that) is a silly response.

Your burst functions perfectly when the target is not very skilled and doesn’t try to be evasive. Pretty much every class has skills that can be dodged.

So I’m the end it’s about what one chooses for their build (how much cannot be dodged) amd how skilled the other player is at avoiding.

This isn’t some super simplistic combat system like WoW, SWTOR, or FF. In ESO we have an active defense system designed so we can avoid much damage if we choose. I think that is what OP’s issue comes down to.

Illuvatarr

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Ok seeing as Sorc has a number of undodgable skills such as streak, Atro's beam attack, Curse, Mines, Familiar Pulse, ect ect ect... I find it highly unlikely for you to miss 70% of your attacks unless you are playing terribly against a Player on the defensive (which is sounds like you were)

In a 1v1 where you guys were actually fighting one another then it wouldn't be more than 50% of attacks dodged and even then that's a lot.

The only thing it sounds like is that you have the reading comprehension skills of an obscure rock on Mars or you didn’t read the post.

I did, I simply made a number of assumptions based off the information you gave.

If a good player is on the defensive you probably won't hit them but as a sorc you have a great many undodgable skills so don't complain as much. If it's too much to handle then streak way.

My burst should function just as well as yours or anyone else’s. It should land with the same ease. Telling me that I should be forced to slot non class skills or that mag sorcs should not be allowed to burst like other classes (which is what you are really saying even if you didn’t think that) is a silly response.

No, your burst should not function as well as someone else's. It should always be based on your skill level, rotation, build, and choice of skills. Sorry no free passes just because you're a sorc or max cp.

If you choose to use skills, builds, or rotations that are not effective or your skill level is not up to the person you are fighting against then again, NO your burst should not function as well as theirs.

Sorry, not trying to be a jerk, but you've had dozens of people trying to help you, but you are still stuck on your false missed percentages which have absolutely nothing to do with sorc, but rather your own personal play style and skill level.

Mag sorc burst (not Illuvatar the mag sorc, but mag sorcs in general) should land just as easily as any other class. You arent being a jerk but like your first post you are showing either bias or you still are missing the point. You are basically saying to not use frags, to not use crushing shock, to not light attack with projectiles, to not use overload light attacks and to completely change the way mag sorcs have played for the past five years to fit your narrative. That is an unacceptable response in my opinion.

Don’t need help. The problem is obvious. They overnerfed mag sorc offense. You can disagree with that if you like but the numbers are the numbers. You can make it personal like you have but all you have contributed is flames to the post without adding anything substantive. Your opinion is your opinion but it is meaningless without data backing it. The problem is systemic. They broke mag sorc offense and it needs a rework.

Sorry, but you're way off base. Many of us mag sorcs are doing just fine and again your missed skills percentages are based solely on your own skill level and play style and are not representative of mag sorcs as a whole. No bias or missed point there, just facts.

Personally I use curse, frags, reach, crushing shock, fury, and streak. Maybe 15% of my attacks miss, but that's because I setup my combos properly. You also have rune cage if you choose so there is absolutely no reason why 70% of your attacks should miss unless it's a skill level(or Meridias blessing set) which if you are willing to learn, take advice, and adapt your build then you will get better and that 70% missed attacks number will start going down drastically.

We can go on for days and do pages of back and forth, but ultimately Zos is never going to nerf or buff something based on one persons personal experience that has nothing to do with reality. You have choices if you don't want to use them then that's on you.

Don’t know if I need any advice. It isn’t hard to place a target on someone and hit a button....

That comment pretty much sums it up, if you're not timing your burst combo around your cc and using your reflectable skills at the right time then you will not be effective. No amount of nerfs or buffs will change that.

Pretty much sums it up? How did you extrapolate I am not using my burst combo or timing it right from that comment? I was giving lessons to a couple of AD players in Cyro the other morning on how to do just that. (and I play DC.....)

You are making a large number of assumptions and your 15 percent miss rate may have been true prior to the mag sorc nerfs. However, there is no way it is true in Murkmire (not doubting your veracity but maybe you are OG and living the mag sorc dream).

No assumptions needed, your 70% miss rate proves that, unless your math is off?

Either way with the evasion and dodge roll changes you should have less misses since Murkmire, not more.

I suppose in the Comedy of Errors that is ESO anything is possible. My math could be wrong. Doubtful, but possible. However, that doesn't mean the heavy handed nerfs were warranted after four years of observations of mag sorc offense. There was simply no need to do it and I don't see any argument justifying it other than some internal mandate to buff nightblade/stamina class defense at the expense of ranged classes with mag sorcs again being the primary target. A change that wasn't needed I might add.

Datthaw

Illuvatarr wrote: »

I have log parses I have put together the good old fashioned way (counting and tracking).

In non cp and cp over 6 nights of pvp and roughly 4,000 spells cast....2,932 are dodged and or miss due to cloak. That is roughly 73.3 percent COMPLETE damage mitigation.

A good friend of mine who plays a stam sorc (one of the best players I have ever seen in this game actually) told me he believes this is balanced. I am trying to understand why he would say that. I asked him and he said your shields soak up my bleeds so there is parity. Ostensibly, this may seem like an excellent argument but that is not binary damage mitigation. If I took into account resists on the spells that actually do land, the number above would be higher. With dodge/cloak, it is binary damage mitigation. This is complete 100 percent damage mitigation.

It is my belief (and again I am willing to eat crow on this if someone fields a strong argument for balance) this is very imbalanced and needs to be reviewed. I am trying to understand how this made it live in the first place.

Happy to listen to counter arguments/suggestions on this. If you are going to flame the post, please don't post here. I am looking for a constructive discussion on this please. Thank you.

Have you played magnb lately? Sorc complaints make me lol

Galarthor

The problem with Dodge is that it does not have an upper limit unlike shields and heals, and that it can be used to cancel animations, so in 1 global cooldown the NB gets off both and offensive ability + a defensive "ability", which takes other classes 2 global cooldowns, if you adjust for some loss in light attack damage it still amounts to 1.5 global cooldowns or so - which is an additional 50%.

This wouldn't be so much of an issue, if stamblades could not conveniently, reset their dodge roll debuffs by cloaking. And the only viable sorc skill that works against both cloak and dodge is the curse and its damage alone is simply just not enough. Anybody who comes running with other sorc skills that might not be dodgable and claims they are viable has clearly no clue what they are talking about.

The problem here is that you can't really nerf cloak b/c it would break the neck of magblades in PvP. I guess the best solution would be to not have dodge roll debuffs not expire while in cloak or at least at a considerably slower pace. Alternatively, rework cloak completely by seperating it's mitigation and invisibility components. That would allow magblades to still mitigate damage reliably and at the same time put a limit on stamblades perma-dodging.

Datthaw

Galarthor wrote: »

The problem with Dodge is that it does not have an upper limit unlike shields and heals, and that it can be used to cancel animations, so in 1 global cooldown the NB gets off both and offensive ability + a defensive "ability", which takes other classes 2 global cooldowns, if you adjust for some loss in light attack damage it still amounts to 1.5 global cooldowns or so - which is an additional 50%.

This wouldn't be so much of an issue, if stamblades could not conveniently, reset their dodge roll debuffs by cloaking. And the only viable sorc skill that works against both cloak and dodge is the curse and its damage alone is simply just not enough. Anybody who comes running with other sorc skills that might not be dodgable and claims they are viable has clearly no clue what they are talking about.

The problem here is that you can't really nerf cloak b/c it would break the neck of magblades in PvP. I guess the best solution would be to not have dodge roll debuffs not expire while in cloak or at least at a considerably slower pace. Alternatively, rework cloak completely by seperating it's mitigation and invisibility components. That would allow magblades to still mitigate damage reliably and at the same time put a limit on stamblades perma-dodging.

They could tweak cloak if they gave us back some form of decent healing. The shield nerf hurt us (magnbs) the most and because pve magnb was meta we got hit with massive healing nerf and shield nerf. Cloak is the magnbs only reliable source of defence, and even then, it is only reliable when paired with some form of snare removal or dodge roll. Even shade is not reliable because they stealth nerfed it into "invalid location" for many times you try to port in a y axis.

Illuvatarr

[/quote]

lol im not talking about the law of large number. My point is 75% dodge chance might be giving you same expectation as 75% mitigation, they are NOT equivalent when we are talking about the return. Simply because the return is much higher when your enemy is dead or in execute range. And due to the high burst nature of the sorc abilities, your numbers suggest nothing.




But you are.

What you have pointed out is what statisticians refer to as heteroskedasticity. Heteroskedasticity refers to data points that that have variances and covariances that are either much greater or smaller than the variance of the entire data set.

The classic example of this found in most graduate level econometrics (statistics for economists) textbooks is food consumption patterns based upon income levels. Low income individuals tend to almost exclusively eat inexpensive food so it is easy to plot the pattern on a graph and note the relationship. An individual with higher income might eat at Taco Bell the morning after a night of insane debauchery and then have a steak at a Vegas hotel later that day. The change in spending patterns skews the relationship between x and y and the pattern is inherently Heteroscedastic.

This will not bias an attempt to find a line of best fit (the linear relationship I referred to above) but it can skew the overall variance or square root of that variance (standard deviation) if not accounted for. There are several methods to deal with this problem. The most common is to take the natural log of each data point and then use the “logarithmized” data for the analysis. There are reasons for doing this but they are beyond the scope of an ESO post. A less robust but nearly as effective way to do it is to normalize the data. That is why I made each do 1,000 points of damage so we can assess the actual hit/miss rate. One of the reasons I chose a 99 percent confidence interval as opposed to a 95 percent confidence interval is exactly because of the reason you pointed out. I wanted to ensure to be as conservative as possible so I could confidently give a range of possible values. All experiences are relevant as they contribute to the objective of finding out a range of misses and/or hits to assess damage mitigation. The amount of damage they do IS relevant but isn’t relevant to the hit/miss rate.

We can discuss the damage variance in a separate thread if you like and I can show that over time like all other data sets it collapses on the average experience (ie I will have large hits and small hits but the average is what matters).



I am not talking about heteroskedasticity or questioning your methods of statistics. What I am saying is when you consider the equivalence of roll dodge mitigation and actual mitigation, you are comparing the damage done. However, my opinion is that one should actually consider other factors like healing done over time and opportunity kills and build a different comparison model for these 2 types of mitigation. Damage done is effective only when your target has a large amount of health or say, infinite health which will negate, for example, the surprising element of high burst damage.

If your target is running a high mitigation but low dodge rate build, this type of surprising element should not exist.
If your target is running a dodge build, although on average, they can mitigate your dmg as an actual mitigation build, once they get hit, they are very likely dead. So yes, on average, 75 or 81% of your damage is being mitigated by roll dodge, but that does not means you are actually fighting a 75% or 81% mitigation build (for example a perma block build).[/quote]

Correct.

Damage mitigation is what matters. Hit/Miss rate is a close second. The situations you cite above, while relevant, are arbitrary. They are important, no doubt, but must be compartmentalized when assessing hit/miss rates and their impact on damage mitigation I would think. If the skill metric is to double tap repeatedly in order to avoid all damage and your build allows you to do so with near infinite sustain, then the game has become so homogenized it is longer worth playing.

I dueled Pelican earlier this morning (arguably the best mag sorc in ESO). He is a better player than I am. I did everything right and I still lost. I am glad I had the opportunity to fight him alone without interference on Vivek.

Those factors cannot be balanced for and I understand that. That is where skill comes in. However, the skill factor was apparent when he chose the right skills to deploy and I did not. His quickness on the draw being faster than mine.

That is a true match up. It is independent of being able to mesh two skills (cloak and dodge) repeatedly and avoid an entire classes burst package.

This is why hit/miss rates, especially for ranged play and counterplay, are so very important. It is also why they must be viewed independently of other variables to assess their overall effect before adding them into the mix.

Galarthor

Datthaw wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

The problem with Dodge is that it does not have an upper limit unlike shields and heals, and that it can be used to cancel animations, so in 1 global cooldown the NB gets off both and offensive ability + a defensive "ability", which takes other classes 2 global cooldowns, if you adjust for some loss in light attack damage it still amounts to 1.5 global cooldowns or so - which is an additional 50%.

This wouldn't be so much of an issue, if stamblades could not conveniently, reset their dodge roll debuffs by cloaking. And the only viable sorc skill that works against both cloak and dodge is the curse and its damage alone is simply just not enough. Anybody who comes running with other sorc skills that might not be dodgable and claims they are viable has clearly no clue what they are talking about.

The problem here is that you can't really nerf cloak b/c it would break the neck of magblades in PvP. I guess the best solution would be to not have dodge roll debuffs not expire while in cloak or at least at a considerably slower pace. Alternatively, rework cloak completely by seperating it's mitigation and invisibility components. That would allow magblades to still mitigate damage reliably and at the same time put a limit on stamblades perma-dodging.

They could tweak cloak if they gave us back some form of decent healing. The shield nerf hurt us (magnbs) the most and because pve magnb was meta we got hit with massive healing nerf and shield nerf. Cloak is the magnbs only reliable source of defence, and even then, it is only reliable when paired with some form of snare removal or dodge roll. Even shade is not reliable because they stealth nerfed it into "invalid location" for many times you try to port in a y axis.

I feel you. Healing Ward got nerfed into oblivion and the other shields require you to join the tank meta with 20k+ resistances. But don't get your hopes up regarding a fix for shade, Streak has had that bug for years now and it was never fixed. The only thing that might give you hope is that ZOS really loves stamblades, and since the Shade is also bugged for them might actually do something about it. I hoping they will inadvertently fix streak too while do so.