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70 percent of mag sorc attacks miss

Illuvatarr
Illuvatarr
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I have log parses I have put together the good old fashioned way (counting and tracking).

In non cp and cp over 6 nights of pvp and roughly 4,000 spells cast....2,932 are dodged and or miss due to cloak. That is roughly 73.3 percent COMPLETE damage mitigation.

A good friend of mine who plays a stam sorc (one of the best players I have ever seen in this game actually) told me he believes this is balanced. I am trying to understand why he would say that. I asked him and he said your shields soak up my bleeds so there is parity. Ostensibly, this may seem like an excellent argument but that is not binary damage mitigation. If I took into account resists on the spells that actually do land, the number above would be higher. With dodge/cloak, it is binary damage mitigation. This is complete 100 percent damage mitigation.

It is my belief (and again I am willing to eat crow on this if someone fields a strong argument for balance) this is very imbalanced and needs to be reviewed. I am trying to understand how this made it live in the first place.

Happy to listen to counter arguments/suggestions on this. If you are going to flame the post, please don't post here. I am looking for a constructive discussion on this please. Thank you.
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
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    I won't speak to the particular argument between you and your friend, but I will say that I have had great success using Scorching Flare to turn a lot of "misses" into "hits."

    Most Nightblades are predictable in their use of cloak (they often use it right after a dodge), so you can launch a Scorching Flare in the direction of their roll dodge and they cloak right into it as it explodes. The DOT from Scorching Flare hits hard, and will both cancel cloak for a short time, and put a lot of pressure on your opponent. Perhaps one of the greatest changes ZOS has ever made was making Flare cheap enough that you can spam it. Flare also gives you a nice 10% magicka recovery bonus just for being slotted if you invest into the Magicka Aid passive from the Support skill line.

    I know the Overload changes dropped a third bar from Sorcerers, but if you can find a spot for Scorching Flare it's really nice when you're in open world scenarios where you run into a lot of Nightblades. In grouped, team play, you can probably drop it from your bar, as there is often enough heals to go around to just shrug off Nightblades.

    While excellent advice and definitely a great tactic, my concern lies with the mechanics of dodge and cloak causing misses and how mag sorc offense interacts with them. If we can keep the conversation on that, I would greatly appreciate it. There are other dynamics to the match up between nightblades and mag sorcs that influence it as we all well know.

    However, this is more about dodge/miss rates. They are exorbitantly high. It is my belief they are very imbalanced.
  • Sanctum74
    Sanctum74
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    Can't say I have a problem fighting nb's with my sorc. Between curse and streak I can usually keep them out of stealth long enough to kill them or they just run away. There is no one in this game that's worth chasing down so seems balanced to me.
  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
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    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    I won't speak to the particular argument between you and your friend, but I will say that I have had great success using Scorching Flare to turn a lot of "misses" into "hits."

    Most Nightblades are predictable in their use of cloak (they often use it right after a dodge), so you can launch a Scorching Flare in the direction of their roll dodge and they cloak right into it as it explodes. The DOT from Scorching Flare hits hard, and will both cancel cloak for a short time, and put a lot of pressure on your opponent. Perhaps one of the greatest changes ZOS has ever made was making Flare cheap enough that you can spam it. Flare also gives you a nice 10% magicka recovery bonus just for being slotted if you invest into the Magicka Aid passive from the Support skill line.

    I know the Overload changes dropped a third bar from Sorcerers, but if you can find a spot for Scorching Flare it's really nice when you're in open world scenarios where you run into a lot of Nightblades. In grouped, team play, you can probably drop it from your bar, as there is often enough heals to go around to just shrug off Nightblades.

    While excellent advice and definitely a great tactic, my concern lies with the mechanics of dodge and cloak causing misses and how mag sorc offense interacts with them. If we can keep the conversation on that, I would greatly appreciate it. There are other dynamics to the match up between nightblades and mag sorcs that influence it as we all well know.

    However, this is more about dodge/miss rates. They are exorbitantly high. It is my belief they are very imbalanced.

    You did specifically say that you were happy to listen to suggestions -- so I offered one that Sorcerers can access, Scorching Flare, which can counter the "miss" benefit that cloak grants a player. That appears to be on point in a discussion about dodge/miss rates because once Scorching Flare connects against cloak it completely nullifies cloak's miss benefit for a short period of time. Dismissing it as not being part of of the discussion doesn't make much sense.

    Anyway, concerning dodge, these Sorcerer skills can't be dodged:
    • Volatile Familiar (activated skill)
    • Encase
    • Daedric Mines
    • Lightning Form
    • Lightning Splash
    • Bolt Escape
    • Heavy Attacks (If you equip a Lightning Staff or Restoration Staff)
    • An ultimate ability like Soul Assault also works well, as players who are dodging cannot block, and will take more damage from the undodgeable skill.
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
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    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    I won't speak to the particular argument between you and your friend, but I will say that I have had great success using Scorching Flare to turn a lot of "misses" into "hits."

    Most Nightblades are predictable in their use of cloak (they often use it right after a dodge), so you can launch a Scorching Flare in the direction of their roll dodge and they cloak right into it as it explodes. The DOT from Scorching Flare hits hard, and will both cancel cloak for a short time, and put a lot of pressure on your opponent. Perhaps one of the greatest changes ZOS has ever made was making Flare cheap enough that you can spam it. Flare also gives you a nice 10% magicka recovery bonus just for being slotted if you invest into the Magicka Aid passive from the Support skill line.

    I know the Overload changes dropped a third bar from Sorcerers, but if you can find a spot for Scorching Flare it's really nice when you're in open world scenarios where you run into a lot of Nightblades. In grouped, team play, you can probably drop it from your bar, as there is often enough heals to go around to just shrug off Nightblades.

    While excellent advice and definitely a great tactic, my concern lies with the mechanics of dodge and cloak causing misses and how mag sorc offense interacts with them. If we can keep the conversation on that, I would greatly appreciate it. There are other dynamics to the match up between nightblades and mag sorcs that influence it as we all well know.

    However, this is more about dodge/miss rates. They are exorbitantly high. It is my belief they are very imbalanced.

    You did specifically say that you were happy to listen to suggestions -- so I offered one that Sorcerers can access, Scorching Flare, which can counter the "miss" benefit that cloak grants a player. That appears to be on point in a discussion about dodge/miss rates because once Scorching Flare connects against cloak it completely nullifies cloak's miss benefit for a short period of time. Dismissing it as not being part of of the discussion doesn't make much sense.

    Anyway, concerning dodge, these Sorcerer skills can't be dodged:
    • Volatile Familiar (activated skill)
    • Encase
    • Daedric Mines
    • Lightning Form
    • Lightning Splash
    • Bolt Escape
    • Heavy Attacks (If you equip a Lightning Staff or Restoration Staff)
    • An ultimate ability like Soul Assault also works well, as players who are dodging cannot block, and will take more damage from the undodgeable skill.

    Most certainly they do but the primary attack mode for sorcs and how sorcs have played fundamentally for the past five years is based around a skill set that has more hard counters than any skillset in game. Most of those counters were added in the last 9-12 months.

    My point is that sorcs should be able to deliver their burst dps package in the same manner and with the same relative efficiency as any other class. Not more. Not less. No other class (that I am aware of and will gladly eat crow on this if you show me) faces the same level of total damage mitigation as sorcs do.

    You are 100 percent right about scorching flare I just didn't want the thread to get derailed into a nightblade versus mag sorc thread. Plenty of those already and the only reason I cited nightblades is it made the math easier by combining aggregate dodges and misses.

    No other class has these limitation in place to this level. Not only this, placing dps on pets which cannot be reliably controlled by the pet sorc except in 1v1 encounters and calling it balance for sustained dps is navigating away from the issue and also very poor balancing. The entire pet sorc motif is poor and myopic balancing. Pet sorcs use LOS issues with pets to remain viable and it is op and stupid. I dont think any fair observer would think otherwise and it is abusing the targetting system in the game and is an insult to skillful players who choose to duo pets as it is required for viability. The pets are a nuisance in pvp. Trust me, I have to slot one for my burst heal and against competent players I have to focus on healing the pet more than healing myself.

    However, all of that is besides the point.

    82 percent damage mitigation. Is that justifiable?
  • Bald_templar
    Bald_templar
    Soul Shriven
    For those attacks that didn’t miss, i assume you very likely killed a lot of people by timing the attack all within a small window of burst. The return of high dmg single target abilities is not linear hence I do not think a high miss rate suggests anything significant.

    Just to illustrate what does that mean let's perform the following mind experiment.

    Suppose your target has 100 health and your ability hits for 80.
    Let's look at the health of your target
    Case 1 (base case)
    (1)(Dodge3 get hit once)
    100 100 100 20 20 20 20 dead (8 casts)
    (2)(75%mitigation)
    80 60 40 20 dead (5 casts)
    In this case, the return of 75% dodge is even better than 75% mitigation.

    Case 2 (execute at 20)
    (1)
    100 100 100 20(dead) (4 casts)
    (2)
    80 60 40 20(dead) (4 casts)
    It is interesting that with an execute, these 2 looks similar.

    Case 3 (heal over time for 10)
    (1)
    100 100 100 30 40 50 60 dead (8 casts)
    (2)
    90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10 dead (10 casts)
    So now 75% mitigation is better than dodging.

    Case 4 (heal over time for 10+execute at 20)
    (1)
    100 100 100 30 40 50 60 dead (8 casts)
    (2)
    90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20(dead) (8 casts)
    Now they are similar again.


    Anyway I am just trying to show you that a comparison between the expectation of dodge and mitigation does not suggest much information, simply because of the non-linear nature of the reward.

    Edited by Bald_templar on February 10, 2019 10:49PM
  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
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    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    I won't speak to the particular argument between you and your friend, but I will say that I have had great success using Scorching Flare to turn a lot of "misses" into "hits."

    Most Nightblades are predictable in their use of cloak (they often use it right after a dodge), so you can launch a Scorching Flare in the direction of their roll dodge and they cloak right into it as it explodes. The DOT from Scorching Flare hits hard, and will both cancel cloak for a short time, and put a lot of pressure on your opponent. Perhaps one of the greatest changes ZOS has ever made was making Flare cheap enough that you can spam it. Flare also gives you a nice 10% magicka recovery bonus just for being slotted if you invest into the Magicka Aid passive from the Support skill line.

    I know the Overload changes dropped a third bar from Sorcerers, but if you can find a spot for Scorching Flare it's really nice when you're in open world scenarios where you run into a lot of Nightblades. In grouped, team play, you can probably drop it from your bar, as there is often enough heals to go around to just shrug off Nightblades.

    While excellent advice and definitely a great tactic, my concern lies with the mechanics of dodge and cloak causing misses and how mag sorc offense interacts with them. If we can keep the conversation on that, I would greatly appreciate it. There are other dynamics to the match up between nightblades and mag sorcs that influence it as we all well know.

    However, this is more about dodge/miss rates. They are exorbitantly high. It is my belief they are very imbalanced.

    You did specifically say that you were happy to listen to suggestions -- so I offered one that Sorcerers can access, Scorching Flare, which can counter the "miss" benefit that cloak grants a player. That appears to be on point in a discussion about dodge/miss rates because once Scorching Flare connects against cloak it completely nullifies cloak's miss benefit for a short period of time. Dismissing it as not being part of of the discussion doesn't make much sense.

    Anyway, concerning dodge, these Sorcerer skills can't be dodged:
    • Volatile Familiar (activated skill)
    • Encase
    • Daedric Mines
    • Lightning Form
    • Lightning Splash
    • Bolt Escape
    • Heavy Attacks (If you equip a Lightning Staff or Restoration Staff)
    • An ultimate ability like Soul Assault also works well, as players who are dodging cannot block, and will take more damage from the undodgeable skill.

    Most certainly they do but the primary attack mode for sorcs and how sorcs have played fundamentally for the past five years is based around a skill set that has more hard counters than any skillset in game. Most of those counters were added in the last 9-12 months.

    My point is that sorcs should be able to deliver their burst dps package in the same manner and with the same relative efficiency as any other class. Not more. Not less. No other class (that I am aware of and will gladly eat crow on this if you show me) faces the same level of total damage mitigation as sorcs do.

    You are 100 percent right about scorching flare I just didn't want the thread to get derailed into a nightblade versus mag sorc thread. Plenty of those already and the only reason I cited nightblades is it made the math easier by combining aggregate dodges and misses.

    No other class has these limitation in place to this level. Not only this, placing dps on pets which cannot be reliably controlled by the pet sorc except in 1v1 encounters and calling it balance for sustained dps is navigating away from the issue and also very poor balancing. The entire pet sorc motif is poor and myopic balancing. Pet sorcs use LOS issues with pets to remain viable and it is op and stupid. I dont think any fair observer would think otherwise and it is abusing the targetting system in the game and is an insult to skillful players who choose to duo pets as it is required for viability. The pets are a nuisance in pvp. Trust me, I have to slot one for my burst heal and against competent players I have to focus on healing the pet more than healing myself.

    However, all of that is besides the point.

    82 percent damage mitigation. Is that justifiable?

    Your number, 82% damage mitigation, depends entirely on the skills that you are using against players who are dodging and cloaking. Perhaps if you post your build with skill bars then we could get a better idea of which skills you have available to counter players who are dodging and cloaking?

    One more thing I'd like clarity on. In your first post you say, "With dodge/cloak, it is binary damage mitigation. This is complete 100 percent damage mitigation."

    Dodge and cloak only provide 100% damage mitigation if they are used against skills that can be dodged or cloaked against. There are skills that specifically cannot be dodged and cloaked through, effectively turning the attempt at 100% mitigation into 0% mitigation (and also the reality that the player didn't use block, which means that they will take more damage due to their failed attempt to dodge or cloak).

    It's hard to say much more until seeing which skills you are attempting to use against enemies who are dodging and cloaking.
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
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    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.
  • Airyus
    Airyus
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    Try being a Mag DK after the changes to flame lash...
  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
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    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.
  • Sanctum74
    Sanctum74
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    It doesn't matter if it's 70%, 82%, or whatever randomly generated percentage it climbs up to on your next post because it's all based on your personal play style and skill choice. Considering your skill bar is private property then I'm not sure how you expect for people to help you.
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
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    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
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    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    It doesn't matter if it's 70%, 82%, or whatever randomly generated percentage it climbs up to on your next post because it's all based on your personal play style and skill choice. Considering your skill bar is private property then I'm not sure how you expect for people to help you.

    Not looking for help...thank you though.

    I listed the abilities that are subject to the mitigation and are relevant to the thread title.

  • LordTareq
    LordTareq
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    Every class has abilities that are vexing for the opponent. As a nightblade myself, when I fight certain other nightblade builds I hate cloak too, especially those archers that shoot - cloak - shoot - cloak - shoot - cloak...ugh. I don't have any anti-cloak skills slotted either.
    Fact is, the cloak is such an integral part of the nightblade, without it they would be easy kills, which is evident when you run into a bunch of players that do have have some anti-cloak skills slotted. Nightblades die very fast then, and its quite frustrating to frantically try and get away while snared/immobilized/stunned and then your cloak suddenly doesn't seem to work anymore (with all the spell effects all over the place its pretty much impossible to judge if any anti-cloak skills are being used if its not a duel). So you cloak, it get instantly broken, you dodge roll into cloak, it gets instantly broken again, and you die.
    I'd actually be in favor of cloak not evading attacks anymore (still delaying dots though), so attacks on their way will still hit, if nothing would break cloak anymore except for the PvP skill flare (which should get a highly visible effect so the nightblades know when an arae is flared). That way all opponents regardless of their skills have a little bit more counterplay to cloak, while for the nightblade cloak is a bit more reliable.
    Edited by LordTareq on February 10, 2019 11:09PM
  • Sanctum74
    Sanctum74
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    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    It doesn't matter if it's 70%, 82%, or whatever randomly generated percentage it climbs up to on your next post because it's all based on your personal play style and skill choice. Considering your skill bar is private property then I'm not sure how you expect for people to help you.

    Not looking for help...thank you though.

    I listed the abilities that are subject to the mitigation and are relevant to the thread title.

    So what are you looking for then? Your figures jump from 70%-100% damagage mitigation and even if your 30% differential statistics were correct, again it's purely based on your own play style and skill level as well as the person you are playing against.

    Random skill mitigation don't mean anything if they are not set up in a proper burst combo.

    Not trying to be a troll, but as a mag sorc main how much damage does my shield and streak mitigate?

    Don't get me wrong cloak is annoying af, but it's ones of those things that you either use the many counters available or as the most mobile class in the game you just streak away and ignore them. You have options.

    Edited by Sanctum74 on February 10, 2019 11:44PM
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
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    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    It doesn't matter if it's 70%, 82%, or whatever randomly generated percentage it climbs up to on your next post because it's all based on your personal play style and skill choice. Considering your skill bar is private property then I'm not sure how you expect for people to help you.

    Not looking for help...thank you though.

    I listed the abilities that are subject to the mitigation and are relevant to the thread title.

    So what are you looking for then? Your figures jump from 70%-100% damagage mitigation and even if your 30% differential statistics were correct, again it's purely based on your own play style and skill level as well as the person you are playing against.

    Random skill mitigation don't mean anything if they are not set up in a proper burst combo.

    Not trying to be a troll, but as a mag sorc main how much damage does my shield and streak mitigate?

    Don't get me wrong cloak is annoying af, but it's ones of those things that you either use the many counters available or as the most mobile class in the game you just steak away and ignore them. You have options.

    Reread my second post in the thread please when you have a moment. It states what I am looking to discuss. If anything is unclear I am notorious for not explaining my thoughts and figures in a lucid manner.

    To summarize, I am curious if 82 percent damage mitigation is balanced. The second post explains this how I came to it in more detail. Thank you.

  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
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    I think this is already on ZOS' radar. The class reps agreed that Cloak is too extreme in its hit or miss mechanic. And ZOS hinted at a rework to sorc offensive. Having the burst mitigated so easily is a big point here.

    Also, being able to dodge Fury twice is utterly stupid.
    >=C
  • Sanctum74
    Sanctum74
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    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    It doesn't matter if it's 70%, 82%, or whatever randomly generated percentage it climbs up to on your next post because it's all based on your personal play style and skill choice. Considering your skill bar is private property then I'm not sure how you expect for people to help you.

    Not looking for help...thank you though.

    I listed the abilities that are subject to the mitigation and are relevant to the thread title.

    So what are you looking for then? Your figures jump from 70%-100% damagage mitigation and even if your 30% differential statistics were correct, again it's purely based on your own play style and skill level as well as the person you are playing against.

    Random skill mitigation don't mean anything if they are not set up in a proper burst combo.

    Not trying to be a troll, but as a mag sorc main how much damage does my shield and streak mitigate?

    Don't get me wrong cloak is annoying af, but it's ones of those things that you either use the many counters available or as the most mobile class in the game you just steak away and ignore them. You have options.

    Reread my second post in the thread please when you have a moment. It states what I am looking to discuss. If anything is unclear I am notorious for not explaining my thoughts and figures in a lucid manner.

    To summarize, I am curious if 82 percent damage mitigation is balanced. The second post explains this how I came to it in more detail. Thank you.

    I get it and I appreciate the time you took to get the statistics you got, but the same can also be said for shield stackers, permablockers, heal bots, as well as cloakers. My only point is that skills and/or play styles should not be nerfed based on the particular play style of an individual when they have various counters already available.
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
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    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    It doesn't matter if it's 70%, 82%, or whatever randomly generated percentage it climbs up to on your next post because it's all based on your personal play style and skill choice. Considering your skill bar is private property then I'm not sure how you expect for people to help you.

    Not looking for help...thank you though.

    I listed the abilities that are subject to the mitigation and are relevant to the thread title.

    So what are you looking for then? Your figures jump from 70%-100% damagage mitigation and even if your 30% differential statistics were correct, again it's purely based on your own play style and skill level as well as the person you are playing against.

    Random skill mitigation don't mean anything if they are not set up in a proper burst combo.

    Not trying to be a troll, but as a mag sorc main how much damage does my shield and streak mitigate?

    Don't get me wrong cloak is annoying af, but it's ones of those things that you either use the many counters available or as the most mobile class in the game you just steak away and ignore them. You have options.

    Reread my second post in the thread please when you have a moment. It states what I am looking to discuss. If anything is unclear I am notorious for not explaining my thoughts and figures in a lucid manner.

    To summarize, I am curious if 82 percent damage mitigation is balanced. The second post explains this how I came to it in more detail. Thank you.

    I get it and I appreciate the time you took to get the statistics you got, but the same can also be said for shield stackers, permablockers, heal bots, as well as cloakers. My only point is that skills and/or play styles should not be nerfed based on the particular play style of an individual when they have various counters already available.

    That is my point as well and to take the entire burst package of a class and essentially nullify it by subjecting it to 82 percent damage mitigation or making it nearly impossible to land is the issue I have. As I said above, would happily take less damage and dps that builds.

    A good class for the developers to look at and one that I believe some of them had the opportunity to play (and maybe even design) was the archmage class from Warhammer Online. The class built its burst over time by applying dots and was able to do so from range (which was not imbalanced in that game). The balancing team on that game had it right. You could build range and melee could counter it but you could land your dps so both sides could apply pressure. This isn't the case with ESO. In my opinion, they destroyed the classes ability to function against competent players and have done nothing for a year. As I said earlier, its getting old.
    Edited by Illuvatarr on February 11, 2019 12:13AM
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
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    For those attacks that didn’t miss, i assume you very likely killed a lot of people by timing the attack all within a small window of burst. The return of high dmg single target abilities is not linear hence I do not think a high miss rate suggests anything significant.

    Just to illustrate what does that mean let's perform the following mind experiment.

    Suppose your target has 100 health and your ability hits for 80.
    Let's look at the health of your target
    Case 1 (base case)
    (1)(Dodge3 get hit once)
    100 100 100 20 20 20 20 dead (8 casts)
    (2)(75%mitigation)
    80 60 40 20 dead (5 casts)
    In this case, the return of 75% dodge is even better than 75% mitigation.

    Case 2 (execute at 20)
    (1)
    100 100 100 20(dead) (4 casts)
    (2)
    80 60 40 20(dead) (4 casts)
    It is interesting that with an execute, these 2 looks similar.

    Case 3 (heal over time for 10)
    (1)
    100 100 100 30 40 50 60 dead (8 casts)
    (2)
    90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10 dead (10 casts)
    So now 75% mitigation is better than dodging.

    Case 4 (heal over time for 10+execute at 20)
    (1)
    100 100 100 30 40 50 60 dead (8 casts)
    (2)
    90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20(dead) (8 casts)
    Now they are similar again.


    Anyway I am just trying to show you that a comparison between the expectation of dodge and mitigation does not suggest much information, simply because of the non-linear nature of the reward.

    It is a mathematical certainty that the reward you mention organically moves towards two parameters. The first is that each additional observation you have builds upon the experience of the prior observation and both naturally tend to form a normal distribution or bell curve if plotted on the x and y axis. The second is that the relationship, due to the normally distributed nature of the data moves closer and closer asymptotically to a linear relationship. In English, the more observations you add the more each additional observation establishes a solid mean or average for the data and the more linearly each can be plotted against the mean expectation of the data set. This bell curve will naturally establish a mean and a standard deviation (the standard deviation for non statistics folks is a number that shows, on average, how much each data point in the pool of data deviates from the global average).

    In the end, for batting averages, how many ladies you ask out and how many say yes to how many times you shoot the eightball in the corner pocket with a predesigned pool shot, all you ever need to guide you is these two numbers. Your average, telling you what to expect and your standard deviation, how much you can expect to deviate from that average each time you put your socks on in the morning.

    Long story short. An individual experience is irrelevant. The average experience based upon the experience of the entire data set is and that relationship comes closer and closer to linearity with each observation we add.

    4,000 observations is more than adequate to show the relationship hence why I chose the number.

    Edited by Illuvatarr on February 11, 2019 1:09AM
  • Ragnaroek93
    Ragnaroek93
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    Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.
  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
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    Pets???
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
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    Fighting against Cloak is annoying but fighting against shields is just as annoying. Defense in general needs a nerf in my opinion. You can't nerf one defense mechanic without touching the other ones as well. My sorc on PTS has a 13k spammable shield, that's definitely not weaker than Cloak and the survivability on sorc did skyrocket with Murkmire for the PvP part (my shield is stronger in PvP than it is in PvE lol...). The only thing which makes Hardened Ward "balanced" on sorc is the low killing potential which sorc suffers from but that will change with pet buffs next patch.

    While all possibly true, how is it relevant to hits/misses on sorc offense? Trying to make connection. If AI controlled pets are the solution we might all as well just wear proc sets and let random chance play the game for us. Not only this, the AI of the pets is horrendously bad, they dont stay on target, they die too easily and they take up 2 ability slots each.

    Perhaps The artist formerly known as Lead Combat Designer knew he was on his way out the door and wanted to build a legacy for the next opportunity with creating a ninja class in an mmo and destroying one he didn't care for in the first place? He did mention in an interview he wanted to "spread his seed" across the game. That could just be conjecture.
    Edited by Illuvatarr on February 11, 2019 3:37AM
  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
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    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
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    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    Illuvatarr wrote: »
    My skill bar as a whole is private property. However, the skills that were dodged/missed are subject to 100 percent mitigation and they include overload light attacks, lightning/ice staff light attacks, mages fury, crushing shock, crystal fragments.

    Haha okay... then I guess all I can say is that if you wish to reduce dodge and cloak from 100% mitigation to 0% mitigation, then slot and use some skills that directly counter both dodge and cloak. It's cliche to say, but it looks an awful lot like a rock/paper/scissor scenario, and it appears that perhaps you're taking issue with scissors not beating rock.

    I understand what you are getting at but none of that has to do with the total mitigation and miss rate of those abilities which are key components of the mag sorc burst package. I am even willing to take less damage to have them work and connect properly. The way they interact with dodge and cloak is broken. No ability in game should have 82 percent damage mitigation.

    Dodge and cloak only have 82 percent damage mitigation against you because you seem stuck on only utilizing your burst package against players who are dodging and cloaking --- that doesn't make sense. Again, it's like you're trying to make scissors beat rock. You have other skills in your toolkit that you can use to COMPLETELY counter dodging and at least make cloaking more difficult. Just ignoring those tools and playing scissors (your burst package) every time should result in rock (dodge and cloak) being effective against you. As far as we know that design is intended.

    Perhaps. Maybe if those tools provided the same level of burst in close quarters as the classes that can utilize dodge and cloak most (stamina classes) you might have an argument. However, they don’t. Furthermore, they don’t address the fact that 82 percent damage mitigation is absurd and silly. If that is your rationale, my Daedric tomb should tooltip for 15k each mine to hard counter dodge rollers and nightblades since we are discussing good and intelligent design intentions.

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