Pelican wrote: »

I see the altmer changes really useful for sorcerer. It helps when you are dark dealing or recasting pet since you are VERY vulnerable when doing those. Casting channelled acceleration will also be safer since you have both the altmer and psijic major protection passive.

Yep, exactly. You get the mitigation when you need it most. Furthermore, the stam return from spell charge is huge in PvP on any class.

apriori.unknotub17_ESO wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Yep, exactly. You get the mitigation when you need it most.

But, you don't. I almost never need to recast my sorc pet. When I do, I'm in a safe spot already anyway. I would even argue that recasting your pet while taking damage is a bad idea, and the extra 5% mitigation is not going to make recasting the better option over throwing down a CC or Streaking out.

You could hard cast frags, but again, you're probably only doing that when you're not getting hit.

Only Dark Conversion makes any sense at all from a "when you need it" analysis. So no, this mitigation is not 'really useful' for a sorc, because you don't get the mitigation when you need it. You'll hardly ever see it.

And we're not talking about the stam restore here, please leave that out of the conversation.

And remember. It's not a 5% mitigation. It's 3,8% at most (at 15000 resistance and no other mitigation buffs). Mitigation is multiplicative, so the more resistance and another mitigation buffs you have, the weaker Spell Recharge is.

Urvoth wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Just wanted to let you folks know, that the casting mitigation from Altmer does work during heavy attacks.
Just like Light of Cyrodiil works with heavy attacks.

Keep in mind, that it's not 5% damage mitigation due to all other mititgations. It's more like 2,5%. So doesn't really matter.
Increased enchant effectiveness is a good suggestion. Altmer have always been gifted enchanters.

Increased enchant effectiveness might be the best option if they want to remove Altmer's sustain passives. Depending on the % buff, it allows for a lot of flexibility, potentially making up for the sustain difference with Bretons.

Bretons suppose to be better at sustain... Altmers shouldn't be the jack of all trades for Magicka, they could have damage or sustain but not both...

Chelo wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Just wanted to let you folks know, that the casting mitigation from Altmer does work during heavy attacks.
Just like Light of Cyrodiil works with heavy attacks.

Keep in mind, that it's not 5% damage mitigation due to all other mititgations. It's more like 2,5%. So doesn't really matter.
Increased enchant effectiveness is a good suggestion. Altmer have always been gifted enchanters.

Increased enchant effectiveness might be the best option if they want to remove Altmer's sustain passives. Depending on the % buff, it allows for a lot of flexibility, potentially making up for the sustain difference with Bretons.

Bretons suppose to be better at sustain... Altmers shouldn't be the jack of all trades for Magicka, they could have damage or sustain but not both...

They don't have to be the jack of all trades, but they should still get some relevant passives. Some sustain would be nice though, even if it wasn't as much as Bretons.

The balancing goal is 6.5 2pc set bonuses worth of racial passives for each race. So lets have a look at it:


Altmer

• 2000 max magicka -> 2 set bonuses
• 258 Spell damage -> 2 set bonuses
• 645 stam regen every 6 seconds = 215 stam regen, which is more like 180 b/c you won't activate a class ability everytime exactly on cooldown -> 1.4 set bonuses
• 5% damage reduction while casting / channeling = 2.3k spell + physical resistance, howevery since it is conditional and almost nobody meets the condition it is effectively useless -> 0 to 0.1 set bonuses

=> Altmers get 5.5 set bonuses worth of racial passives (argueably 4.5 in PvE and 5.5 in PvP)



Bretons

• 2000 max magicka -> 2 set bonuses
• 7% magicka cost reduction = 600 magicka regen -> 4.6 set bonuses (average of 4000 magicka per second pre-passives)
• 100 magicka regen -> 0.8 set bonuses
• 2310 Spell Resistence -> 1 set bonus, doubled in PvP -> here 2 set bonuses

=> Bretons get 8.4 set bonuses, in PvP even 9.4 set bonuses


Now let's play: "Who can spot the difference".

Edit: Noticed a typo in the magicka cost reduction. It is equivalent to 600 magicka regen rather than 700. Adjusted it and the corresponding set-bonuses-equivalent. Doesn't really change much about the imbalance between the two races though.

With the calculation of 5pc bonuses in mind, Breton magicka cost reduction is 2,1 (7/8 of Seducer bonus).

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

They seem to be calculating it quite differently. There was a discussion on this two weeks ago.
As it seems, for a 5pc bonuses they assume these are worth 2,4 of normal set bonus in average. Julianos and hunding are 299 which is 2,317 of normal set bonus.

That being said, they assume that 5% mitigation while casting is worth 0,8 (one third of Cyrodiils light 5pc bonus). We all know that it is not worth anything, but they might bring this as an argument.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

With the calculation of 5pc bonuses in mind, Breton magicka cost reduction is 2,1 (7/8 of Seducer bonus).

With these numbers:

Altmer
2000 Magicka > 1.8
258 Spell Damage > 2.0
5% dmg reduction > 0.8 (1/3 of Cyrodiil's Light)
~215 stamina recovery > 1.6
= 6.2

Breton
2000 Magicka > 1.8
100 magicka recovery > 0.8
7% cost reduction > 2.1 (7/8 of Seducer)
2310 spell resistance > 0.8
2310 spell resistance, conditional > 0.7 (Trial by Fire grants 7727 as a 5pc)
= 6.2

The math seems to check out.
However, I feel the Altmer's stamina gain is overvalued slightly, because it is unlikely to always trigger on cooldown. It also doesn't really have a place on Altmer for all the other reasons discussed, but the overall values seem fine.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

They seem to be calculating it quite differently. There was a discussion on this two weeks ago.
As it seems, for a 5pc bonuses they assume these are worth 2,4 of normal set bonus in average. Julianos and hunding are 299 which is 2,317 of normal set bonus.

That being said, they assume that 5% mitigation while casting is worth 0,8 (one third of Cyrodiils light 5pc bonus). We all know that it is not worth anything, but they might bring this as an argument.

Even if you bump the value of that passive to 0.8 set bonuses the difference between Altmer and Breton is still huge.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

With the calculation of 5pc bonuses in mind, Breton magicka cost reduction is 2,1 (7/8 of Seducer bonus).

Read the patch notes. Race passives are balanced around 2pc to 4pc bonuses not 5pc bonuses. 5pc bonuses are not standardized yet and are way to volatile. Using your example, the 2k max magicka would only be equivalent to 0.5 set bonsues b/c Shackle Breaker 5pc gives you 2k max magicka and 2k max stamina. So all other passives would also have lower weights and overall Bretons would still be overperforming by a huge margin.

Galarthor wrote: »

The balancing goal is 6.5 2pc set bonuses worth of racial passives for each race. So lets have a look at it:


Altmer

• 2000 max magicka -> 2 set bonuses
• 258 Spell damage -> 2 set bonuses
• 645 stam regen every 6 seconds = 215 stam regen, which is more like 180 b/c you won't activate a class ability everytime exactly on cooldown -> 1.4 set bonuses
• 5% damage reduction while casting / channeling = 2.3k spell + physical resistance, howevery since it is conditional and almost nobody meets the condition it is effectively useless -> 0 to 0.1 set bonuses

=> Altmers get 5.5 set bonuses worth of racial passives (argueably 4.5 in PvE and 5.5 in PvP)



Bretons

• 2000 max magicka -> 2 set bonuses
• 7% magicka cost reduction = 700 magicka regen -> 5.4 set bonuses (average of 4000 magicka per second pre-passives)
• 100 magicka regen -> 0.8 set bonuses
• 2310 Spell Resistence -> 1 set bonus, doubled in PvP -> here 2 set bonuses

=> Bretons get 9.2 set bonuses, in PvP even 10.2 set bonuses


Now let's play: "Who can spot the difference".

The difference between reality and what you did here? You are misleading people with your post. You can't just round some numbers and don't round others. Also getting 700 reg out of 7% cost reduction means an average base cost of 5000 magicka. Are you a purgebot? Normally people sit at 2000 - 3000 average base cost.

1 Set bonus (although they themselves are not really balanced) = 1096 mag/stam = 1206 health = 2640 resistance = 833 spellcritical = 129 recovery = 129 damage

1 5 piece bonus = 2.4 set bonuses = 15% damage reduction while channeling = 8% cost reduction

--> 2000 magicka = 1.825 Set bonuses
--> 258 spell damage = 2 set bonuses
--> 100 mag regen ~ 0.775 Set bonuses
--> 2310 spell resistance = 0.875 set bonuses
--> 7% cost reduction = 0.875 five piece bonuses --> 2.1 set bonuses
--> 5% damage reduction while channeling --> 0.333 five piece bonuses --> 0.8 set bonuses
--> 645 stam/6 sec ~ 215 stam reg ~ 1.666 set bonuses

In ZOS's math:
--> Breton: 5.575 without doubled res / 6.45 with doubled res
--> Altmer: 6.291

If you say the stam return equals 1.4 set bonuses and the damage reduction while channeling is useless you also have to say that the doubled resistance of bretons won't be active all the time.

(The following theoretical numbers are useless crap since you just can't do this:)

If you leave all of them out:

--> Breton: 4.7
--> Altmer: 3.825

If you calculate it with 1.4, 0.1 and say the Breton bonus is doubled all the time:

--> Breton: 6.45
--> Altmer: 5.325

If you do the same as above, but say Bretons resistances are doubled half of the time:
--> Breton: 6.0125
--> Altmer: 5.325

However the set bonuses are not equal in strength (the spell damage bonus is stronger than the magicka bonus since your pool should be big enough to do whatever you want so increasing its size only matters for DPS) and the recent tests show only a minmal difference in DPS (~ 200 DPS) with different races on top (comparing Altmer, Dunmer and Breton, I know Khajiit is a bit ahead)

@Temeraire507 , I am not gonna quote your post b/c it will get too long.

I did not round max magicka b/c I wanted to keep the comparision as simple as possible. Since both races have the exact same bonus here and the rounding errors cancel each other out.

The only passive I failed to round properly is the Spell Resistance passive, but the difference is only 0.125 or 0.25 for PvP. Given the magnitude of the difference between Altmer and Dunmer this has very little impact. But I am sorry for this inaccuracy. I simply had the wrong number for 2pc resistance bonuses in mind.

As for the Spell Cost Reduction, you cannot use the Seducer Set as a reference point for the weighting, since ZOS clearly stated that passives as based on 2pc - 4pc bonuses b/c 5pc bonuses are not standardized. This means you will have to calculate the Regeneration-Equivalent and compare that to the standardized 2pc regen bonus of 129. I outlined the calculation process for that above.

The only thing that is not clear is the exact amount of magicka consumed per second prior to any cost reductions.

Maybe 4000 is a bit high for PvE, but it is not unreasonable for PvP. Many defensive abilities tend to be very expensive. And since I included the set bonuses for the Altmer stam regen, which pretty much is a PvP-only passive, I also used PvP levels of magicka consumption for Breton's cost reduction passive.

It doesn't really change anything in the difference between the races. Sure you could reduce the Breton cost reduction passive by 1 to 1.5, but you'd have to do the same with the Altmer stamina passive.

And giving 0.8 set bonuses to the 5% mitigation passive is a joke. It like giving Bretons a Spell Resistance passive that only grants any resistances when the player already has a resistance level of above 32k, so in other words is pretty useless on most builds in most situations.

Also converting the 645 every 6 seconds directly into 215 stam regen is a joke, b/c the conditions for the proc are way to restrictive. Even if you are using only class abilities there is a good chance that you won't activate one exactly every 6 seconds. And if you factor in the fact that we are not exclusively using class abilities, this chance gets considerably bigger.

Finally, using parses as sole arguement that races are balanced is pretty poor reasoning. First of all, these parses do not capture any defensive passives / elements. Secondly, these parses don't show how classes/races perform under pressure - i.e. when they have to move a lot or mitigate damage. For example, take a melee that cannot be in melee range or 50% of the boss fight. DPS on the dummy might be great, but actually DPS would be pretty poor.

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

How about running, and rolling, and blocking, and breaking free. The most important 'passives' in the game.

If you're doing vet pledges and find you need more stamina regen on a magicka DPS character, then you might be doing something wrong. Just sayin'.

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I've said that on day 1, but for some reason people defend this pile of garbage... https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453610/the-new-high-elf-mitigation-passive-is-useless

@ZeroXFF I only defend the Khajiit changes. That was all I wanted for years from ZOS. But IMO, Altmer shouldn't have been touched at all nor Dunmer. They were fine as is. No need to fix something that isn't broken. And the Argonian should still have the self healing passive and only nerf the potion proc slightly....only slightly. But glad Nords and Bretons are getting attention they deserve.

I only hate wood elves. Damn cannibals with soulless eyes.

yet that seems to be a specialty of the zos devs.

Narthalion wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

5% dmg reduction > 0.8 (1/3 of Cyrodiil's Light)

2310 spell resistance > 0.8

There is no way these should be regarded as equivalent. The resistance for Bretons is always present. The mitigation for Altmer will hardly ever be triggered by anybody but a jabs-spamming templar.

Conceptually it's good and makes sense: high elves as focused spellcasters. But the reality of the game just doesn't support it. The conditions that enable this bonus are too specific, too rarefied, to get any value at all in the mental arithmetic we all do when picking a race.

No amount of "it's worth this much set bonus" changes this. Because let's face it: there are a lot of niche sets that nobody uses. Their value is functionally zero, because nobody wants what they offer over what they can get from other sets. So they don't get used. This passive is like that. A set nobody uses.

I don't want ZOS to waste even 0.1 of that bonus-budget on something this useless.

Yeah. Calculating accumulated set bonuses is all well and good, but not all sets are created equally.
This might work for the 2-4pc bonuses, but for anything else, it's a terrible guideline for balance.