I think we are on the same page. Except, you are talking about the class in which Khajiit is the top DPS. Liko, @susmitds , streamers all got the same result with Khajiit in being the Templar DPS. The very same testers got very different results in MagNB. susmitds even rated Khajiit being the top templar DPS and I read in some post, he stated that one of his raid teammates got like 500 higher DPS on khajiit stamplar compared to orc/dunmer in 4.3.1. Khajiit was the BiS new Templar DPS on both Mag/Stam Templar before these changes.
Your mistake is thinking Magplar DPS = magicka DPS in general. it is not though.
HatchetHaro wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »I agree on most points with you in your latest post @HatchetHaro , but I still think you overestimate Khajiit and underestimate Argonian performance. Not everything in this game must be broken down to raw numbers or a DPS net gain.
I already have numbers to prove that Khajiiti performance is substantially higher than any other Magicka race, and Argonian performance is far too low. Breaking things down to raw numbers is the best way to prove it in a controlled environment, and I can tell you this: a DPS net gain is always going to be more desirable than any utility differences because utility differences can easily be replaced through speccing differently but any DPS difference is completely lost, not to mention that the grand majority of this game consists of players playing DPS.
Pretty much this, Pretty clear that Khajiit would be very good on templar both magic and stamina.I think we are on the same page. Except, you are talking about the class in which Khajiit is the top DPS. Liko, @susmitds , streamers all got the same result with Khajiit in being the Templar DPS. The very same testers got very different results in MagNB. susmitds even rated Khajiit being the top templar DPS and I read in some post, he stated that one of his raid teammates got like 500 higher DPS on khajiit stamplar compared to orc/dunmer in 4.3.1. Khajiit was the BiS new Templar DPS on both Mag/Stam Templar before these changes.
Your mistake is thinking Magplar DPS = magicka DPS in general. it is not though.
HatchetHaro wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »I agree on most points with you in your latest post @HatchetHaro , but I still think you overestimate Khajiit and underestimate Argonian performance. Not everything in this game must be broken down to raw numbers or a DPS net gain.
I already have numbers to prove that Khajiiti performance is substantially higher than any other Magicka race, and Argonian performance is far too low. Breaking things down to raw numbers is the best way to prove it in a controlled environment, and I can tell you this: a DPS net gain is always going to be more desirable than any utility differences because utility differences can easily be replaced through speccing differently but any DPS difference is completely lost, not to mention that the grand majority of this game consists of players playing DPS.
HatchetHaro wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »I agree on most points with you in your latest post @HatchetHaro , but I still think you overestimate Khajiit and underestimate Argonian performance. Not everything in this game must be broken down to raw numbers or a DPS net gain.
I already have numbers to prove that Khajiiti performance is substantially higher than any other Magicka race, and Argonian performance is far too low. Breaking things down to raw numbers is the best way to prove it in a controlled environment, and I can tell you this: a DPS net gain is always going to be more desirable than any utility differences because utility differences can easily be replaced through speccing differently but any DPS difference is completely lost, not to mention that the grand majority of this game consists of players playing DPS.
You’re still highly overestimating the consistency of Khajiit because bad RNG in the execute phase can account for a lot of lost dps if you’re running one or more Bloodthirsty. And you are still understating the importance of Breton race-based sustain for mag builds especially when the CP scalings are implemented.
3 Elemental weapon casts on an 8s parse makes the difference even more apparent (180 effective regen). Investing into sustain more than minimally becomes surplus on Breton, so of course they can invest nearly everything into damage and max stats where other races cannot.
Lets go with the simple magtemp rotation from Alcast:
Blazing Spear > Weapon Swap >
LA > Blockade of Fire > Weapon Swap >
LA > Solar Barrage > 5x Elemental Weapon (With LA) > Blazing Spear > Weapon Swap >
Restart
2x Blazing Spear - 3240 base cost, 6480 total base
Blockade - 3240 base cost
Solar Barrage - 3240 base cost
5x Elemental Weapon - 3122 base cost, 15610 total base
Before cost reduction modifiers that’s 571 effective regen
More realistically you’ll have 10% from Light Armor (as two are often off-weights for Undaunted)
4% from Restoring Spirit
15% off the Elemental Weapon casts from the Psijic passive
2x Blazing Spear - 6480 reduced to 5572
Blockade - 3240 reduced to 2786
Solar Barrage - 3240 reduced to 2786
5x Elemental Weapon - 15610 reduced to 11083
That’s still 390 effective regen before the 100 mag recovery passive is accounted for
490 effective+total recovery as compared to a Dunmer’s gold food 371 (even an Altmer’s gold food) is obviously quite far ahead. It’s the difference between having to use an extra Recovery Glyph or being able to run another Infused Spell Damage Glyph.
But being able to run blue food also means they will come out ahead even more when the new CP scaling come into play. Because being able to run double max stat foods without losing sustain is going to be incredibly strong.
Clockwork Citrus Fillet: 3724 max hp / 351 hp rec/ 3458 max mag / 319 mag rec
Solitude Salmon-Millet Soup: 5395 max hp / 4936 max mag
That is 1.4k extra health, and 1.5k extra mag, both further increased by new CP scalings, all while still having the same or more spell damage due to not needing to slot a recovery glyph and/or use Infused Absorb Mag where other races do in order to have the same sustain capabilities as a baseline Breton. The raw damage does not matter if you are running out of resources to use abilities, and in many cases, in many groups, even good ones, you will not have perfect sustain support to carry an Altmer or Khajiit’s mediocre sustain through fights that go long.
Khajiit is strong if you use Shadow and are lucky. Crit statistics can normalize during a fight but they can also have swings of bad rng during Major Force uptimes, or get unlucky and not crit while you can stand fairly stationary and complete your rotations comfortably thus causing a chunk of dps loss.
Edited for adjustment that was calculating based on 8% Breton reduction rather than 7%
Exactly. There is far more emphasis on DPS than there is on the utility roles. Shoehorning certain races into the small number of utility roles is just not fair to those races.MLGProPlayer wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »I agree on most points with you in your latest post @HatchetHaro , but I still think you overestimate Khajiit and underestimate Argonian performance. Not everything in this game must be broken down to raw numbers or a DPS net gain.
I already have numbers to prove that Khajiiti performance is substantially higher than any other Magicka race, and Argonian performance is far too low. Breaking things down to raw numbers is the best way to prove it in a controlled environment, and I can tell you this: a DPS net gain is always going to be more desirable than any utility differences because utility differences can easily be replaced through speccing differently but any DPS difference is completely lost, not to mention that the grand majority of this game consists of players playing DPS.
Just to clarify your last point, the vast majority of players are DPS because that is how the game is designed. 67% of spots on a trial roster go to DPS. 50-75% of spots on a dungeon roster go to DPS. I know people get defensive at that statement, but there is a reason why it happens this way.
HatchetHaro wrote: »Exactly. There is far more emphasis on DPS than there is on the utility roles. Shoehorning certain races into the small number of utility roles is just not fair to those races.MLGProPlayer wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »I agree on most points with you in your latest post @HatchetHaro , but I still think you overestimate Khajiit and underestimate Argonian performance. Not everything in this game must be broken down to raw numbers or a DPS net gain.
I already have numbers to prove that Khajiiti performance is substantially higher than any other Magicka race, and Argonian performance is far too low. Breaking things down to raw numbers is the best way to prove it in a controlled environment, and I can tell you this: a DPS net gain is always going to be more desirable than any utility differences because utility differences can easily be replaced through speccing differently but any DPS difference is completely lost, not to mention that the grand majority of this game consists of players playing DPS.
Just to clarify your last point, the vast majority of players are DPS because that is how the game is designed. 67% of spots on a trial roster go to DPS. 50-75% of spots on a dungeon roster go to DPS. I know people get defensive at that statement, but there is a reason why it happens this way.
MLGProPlayer wrote: »
luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »All in all the truth is that .2 version with all of its controversy is looking much better than the mess we have right now on live. Just a little tweak here and there and good to go (talking about magicka btw).
luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »All in all the truth is that .2 version with all of its controversy is looking much better than the mess we have right now on live. Just a little tweak here and there and good to go (talking about magicka btw).
yea. And some of the tests I have seen are perfect raid buffs or specific gears for some but weird hear loadouts for others, but the difference in dmg is still high four zeros worth of dmg for of all the races lol.
The small difference between the "OP" selections is balance in my book and much better than live for sure.
SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »Eagerly awaiting the update to this thread....
Seraphayel wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »
This does not contain any conclusive data. All these are single parses on each race, and that combined with the randomness of Minor Vulnerability as well as self-supplied Off Balance from the Lightning Staff backbars makes the accuracy of the data from this video questionable at best.
Seraphayel wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »
This does not contain any conclusive data. All these are single parses on each race, and that combined with the randomness of Minor Vulnerability as well as self-supplied Off Balance from the Lightning Staff backbars makes the accuracy of the data from this video questionable at best.
I haven't seen any concluding data from you that puts Altmer not on top after the 4.3.3 changes.
I mean after the Khajiit changes your emphasis on their crit chance isn't a thing anymore and that was the only reasoning you had for Altmer not being on top. Bretons were never parsing ahead of Altmer.
So my point still stands, Altmer are the top pick for Magicka DPS, we had this conclusion in 4.3.0, 4.3.2 and even now. At least until there are parses that prove otherwise.
HatchetHaro wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »
This does not contain any conclusive data. All these are single parses on each race, and that combined with the randomness of Minor Vulnerability as well as self-supplied Off Balance from the Lightning Staff backbars makes the accuracy of the data from this video questionable at best.
I haven't seen any concluding data from you that puts Altmer not on top after the 4.3.3 changes.
I mean after the Khajiit changes your emphasis on their crit chance isn't a thing anymore and that was the only reasoning you had for Altmer not being on top. Bretons were never parsing ahead of Altmer.
So my point still stands, Altmer are the top pick for Magicka DPS, we had this conclusion in 4.3.0, 4.3.2 and even now. At least until there are parses that prove otherwise.
You haven't seen any because I haven't posted any. I actually have a lot of work to do and it is really difficult to find the hours upon hours upon hours of time just testing and collecting data on the PTS.
I've never claimed anything for 4.3.3 just yet but just because I haven't done the testing doesn't mean I have to accept the results from others regardless of their accuracy.
I've claimed Khajiit to be on top for 4.3.0 - 4.3.2 because my testing showed that. There were no such claims for 4.3.3.
So cut it out. Your point may "still stand" but your point has nothing to do with me as of now. Wait until I complete my testing, then we can talk.
Seraphayel wrote: »Bretons are still nowhere near the top.
SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »You also have to understand that results depend on methods used. Testing with identical gear and CP gives you a superficially "controlled" test, but it doesn't reflect in-game conditions. We gear up differently based on what the race needs. In practice, people will put an Absorb Magicka enchant on Altmer backbar, and a Flame/Frost/Shock (for for single target) or Berserker (for better AOE) enchant on Breton backbar. That would more accurately show the performance difference we can expect on live.