validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Just trying to make sure this conversation doesnt get derailed from the point, and that point being that the OP is wrong >.-

Well going back to the original post, the OP is correct.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Alcast recently highlighted a key issue with the latest racial re-balancing: some races have received passsives that are strictly PvP-oriented.

This is problematic because ESO does not balance PvE and PvP separately. All passives need to be useful in both modes. This is especially true of racial passives since these are foundational skills for every build. There are only 3 passives for every race so balancing them around PvE and PvP really isn't a big ask.

ZOS, this patch is supposed to correct balance issues, not create new ones. Let's think a little more critically about the changes that are being made. I knoe that Brian is a "PvP guy", but your new role as combat design LEAD is to balance for ESO as a whole, not just PvP.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam

They have replaced stealth with a pvp-only stealth detect for Wood Elves. Bosmers have received a passive that is good only for PvP mode. The lead is from Cyrodiil and he needs to respect the fact there is other content besides PvP.

Where ever this topic of PvP-only passives is being talked about, I want to bring up this wood elf passive. I really don't care about the other bosmer passives as I am sure I can still do CR+3 after its all said and done, even on any of the other races. But I rolled my main, my Bosmer, because I LOVE stealth and I have been playing that character since the game began.

With that said I will leave the thread for now. I did not mean to attack you or be aggressive in any way, and if I misread this thread I apologize. But the Bosmer thing is SUPER annoying to me.

You're not complaining that bosmer have been stuck with a PVP passive, you're arguing that Bosmer have been stuck with a passive that is neither useful for PVP or PVE. It's completely different.

Looks like everyone is getting a PVP utility passive, if you dont like your passive then go make your case for a rework. Not here though. That would be off-topic.

Stealth detection is a PvP-only passive. This thread is discussing the problem of PvP-only (or even PvE-only, if there were any) passives added to the game during this PTS cycle. The poster you quoted was not going off-topic in any way. But thanks for your "concern".

There is a huge difference between passives that are only useful in PvP vs. passives that are more useful in PvP than PvE (but are objectively still useful in both).

If you want to be a DD. Which is all you've really indicated to me matters to you, then you dont care about any passive except those that directly increase damage. That is why Dunmer, with 0 sustain, are the top DD pick on live. Thats why noone is crying about Dunmers burning immunity being useless in PVE.

We know you dont care about / play PVP. Damage of most races is within 1-2% of each-other. There is literally nothing to be upset about unless you play PVP or otherwise care about racial style.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Just trying to make sure this conversation doesnt get derailed from the point, and that point being that the OP is wrong >.-

Well going back to the original post, the OP is correct.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Alcast recently highlighted a key issue with the latest racial re-balancing: some races have received passsives that are strictly PvP-oriented.

This is problematic because ESO does not balance PvE and PvP separately. All passives need to be useful in both modes. This is especially true of racial passives since these are foundational skills for every build. There are only 3 passives for every race so balancing them around PvE and PvP really isn't a big ask.

ZOS, this patch is supposed to correct balance issues, not create new ones. Let's think a little more critically about the changes that are being made. I knoe that Brian is a "PvP guy", but your new role as combat design LEAD is to balance for ESO as a whole, not just PvP.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam

They have replaced stealth with a pvp-only stealth detect for Wood Elves. Bosmers have received a passive that is good only for PvP mode. The lead is from Cyrodiil and he needs to respect the fact there is other content besides PvP.

Where ever this topic of PvP-only passives is being talked about, I want to bring up this wood elf passive. I really don't care about the other bosmer passives as I am sure I can still do CR+3 after its all said and done, even on any of the other races. But I rolled my main, my Bosmer, because I LOVE stealth and I have been playing that character since the game began.

With that said I will leave the thread for now. I did not mean to attack you or be aggressive in any way, and if I misread this thread I apologize. But the Bosmer thing is SUPER annoying to me.

You're not complaining that bosmer have been stuck with a PVP passive, you're arguing that Bosmer have been stuck with a passive that is neither useful for PVP or PVE. It's completely different.

Looks like everyone is getting a PVP utility passive, if you dont like your passive then go make your case for a rework. Not here though. That would be off-topic.

Stealth detection is a PvP-only passive. This thread is discussing the problem of PvP-only (or even PvE-only, if there were any) passives added to the game during this PTS cycle. The poster you quoted was not going off-topic in any way. But thanks for your "concern".

There is a huge difference between passives that are only useful in PvP vs. passives that are more useful in PvP than PvE (but are objectively still useful in both).

If you want to be a DD. Which is all you've really indicated to me matters to you, then you dont care about any passive except those that directly increase damage. That is why Dunmer, with 0 sustain, are the top DD pick on live. Thats why noone is crying about Dunmers burning immunity being useless in PVE.

No-one is complaining about it being useless in PVE because it ISN'T USELESS IN PVE. You keep bringing up things and just randomly saying, "oh this is useless in PVE," when they are, in fact, actually useful in PVE.

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

We don't want utility passives.

Kulvar wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

We don't want utility passives.

You don't (and some other people too). Don't talk for everyone.

Kulvar wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

We don't want utility passives.

You don't (and some other people too). Don't talk for everyone.

Uryel wrote: »

I think most of the "it's useless in PvE" thing comes from the fact that most people have a very restricted vision of PvE, ie "PvE is dungeons and trials".

FYI, PvE is also quests, delves, overland, stealing sh*t, and whatnot. It's not just top end content.

So, in the context of a larger vision of PvE, stealth is very useful, just not for the highly competitive raider. Stealth detection still has no use at all.

And to counter something that was wrongly mentionned previously, no, the Khajiits will keep their stealth detection, they will have stealth bonus. It merely loses its previously envisionned buff because it was way overpowered.

BlueRaven wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

I think most of the "it's useless in PvE" thing comes from the fact that most people have a very restricted vision of PvE, ie "PvE is dungeons and trials".

FYI, PvE is also quests, delves, overland, stealing sh*t, and whatnot. It's not just top end content.

So, in the context of a larger vision of PvE, stealth is very useful, just not for the highly competitive raider. Stealth detection still has no use at all.

And to counter something that was wrongly mentionned previously, no, the Khajiits will keep their stealth detection, they will have stealth bonus. It merely loses its previously envisionned buff because it was way overpowered.

Stealth content is not challenging at all. I breezed through the Thieves Guild DLC on my magicka character just wearing Nightmother's Embrace and Night's Silence. Never dropped below 50% stamina, even during heists.

There is no PvE content outside of dungeons and trials that requires optimisation.

So your a high end crafter who can compensate for weakness by makeinh special gear... then why do you need ANY passives?
You are makeing a great case that races should just be cosmetic. If you want to do a dungeon or trial, just make a new armor set for it!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

I think most of the "it's useless in PvE" thing comes from the fact that most people have a very restricted vision of PvE, ie "PvE is dungeons and trials".

FYI, PvE is also quests, delves, overland, stealing sh*t, and whatnot. It's not just top end content.

So, in the context of a larger vision of PvE, stealth is very useful, just not for the highly competitive raider. Stealth detection still has no use at all.

And to counter something that was wrongly mentionned previously, no, the Khajiits will keep their stealth detection, they will have stealth bonus. It merely loses its previously envisionned buff because it was way overpowered.

Stealth content is not challenging at all. I breezed through the Thieves Guild DLC on my magicka character just wearing Nightmother's Embrace and Night's Silence. Never dropped below 50% stamina, even during heists.

There is no PvE content outside of dungeons and trials that requires optimisation.

Pretty sure anyone can put a staff onto any race and burn down any normal mob in the game. So why does anyone need magicka buffs for? If you want to do something harder just make an armor set, right?

Are you making an argument that ALL races should just be cosmetic? Because it sure sounds like it. Why should any race have any stats or flavor buffs? Just make armor sets and play Build-ARace through that!

And oh right! YOU can make various armor sets, that's great! We should make it known that any player who wants to do those quests can come to you for gear, and you will happily make it for free! Because that is also what you are saying, right? Because making those sets is easy. No?

I think what you meant to say is...

"There is no PvE content outside of dungeons and trials that requires optimisation because high end crafters can compensate for any weakness. And since everyone is a high end crafter, including those who just started the game, everyone is fine."

Because any complaint that can be made can be compensated with the correct armor set and enchants, apparently.

•••

I am getting really tired of comments like this. How about I keep my stealth passive and my current armor sets as is. And YOU make special armor sets for high end dungeons, trials, and pvp? I had to put "high end" in there because I have HEALED normal dungeons on my NORD WARDEN. (Who gets zero compensation for magicka and healing.) How? I made a special armor set with proper enchants. Hell, I think most normal trials and dungeons are already designed to be done with one less person than is required, so what if the player's races are not in their optimal roles? We just did CR+3 normal and one of our players DC'd a third of the way into it. (They came back later in the fight.) So optimizing is not really a requirement to complete it, as it's a skill and timing fight.

And...

"It is understandable that players so invested in their characters would be upset about certain changes. What may be good for some may not be good for others. Everyone should be allowed to play their character as they so wish. One player could use a bosmer for a stealth NB, while another uses their bosmer as a stam DK tank (yes I have seen it)."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5799272#Comment_5799272 (This is a quote from a mod btw.)

So I guess we can scratch the whole line of "There is no PvE content outside of dungeons and trials that requires optimization" can't we?

In fact I am hard pressed to think of ANYTHING outside of the hardest Vet/Hard mode dungeons or trials that require an optimal race to complete it. And those are done by a distinct minority of players. If a majority could do it, any PUG would be fine, and we know that is not the case.

So no class or role NEEDS optimization for anything it seems.

••••

So what exactly is your point? Argonians don't need a swim buff? Kahjits don't need stealth or pickpocket buffs? Orcs do not need a sprint or buffs to crafting? Because everyone can swim, steal, go into stealth, sprint, and craft just fine without them?

I thought this was an ELDER SCROLLS game where the different races play a bit differently. Where races bring flavor to game by bringing unique skills and buffs. Where there is a rich history and lore that gets followed up by each game respecting it's predecessor.

But apparently I was mistaken, races are just stat sticks and nothing more. Right?

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

It's also odd how races have exclusive useless racial passives like increase swimming speed and reduce fall damage. Every race should have a useless unique racial passive that kind of pokes fun at the race. Like Khajiits should have increase unarmed attacks so punching hits harder. Useless but funny.