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Orcs are fine now, just cause they have slight more damage in PvE than redguards doesnt make them OP
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MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »I'm glad Alcast is calling ZOS out. The Orc and Altmer changes were great in PTS 1. There was no need to nerf Altmer and buff Orc. It made balance objectively worse. ZOS needs to take more feedback from the top players.
Methinks there is some double-think going in if we think Altmer got "nerfed" when they lost their sustain passive but Orcs got "buffed" when they lost theirs ...
One would think that you might be banging the same drum for Orc sustain as you are for Altmer. After all, and I quote, "Higher sustain = higher DPS because you don't need to use sustain glyphs. Their model doesn't capture that." So Redguard should remain the king of stamina DPS, right? A Redguard with an Infused Berserker backbar has more Weapon Damage than an Orc with an Infused Absorb Stamina backbar, right?
Stamina is much easier to sustain than magicka. You're comparing apples to oranges.1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »I'm glad Alcast is calling ZOS out. The Orc and Altmer changes were great in PTS 1. There was no need to nerf Altmer and buff Orc. It made balance objectively worse. ZOS needs to take more feedback from the top players.
Methinks there is some double-think going in if we think Altmer got "nerfed" when they lost their sustain passive but Orcs got "buffed" when they lost theirs ...
One would think that you might be banging the same drum for Orc sustain as you are for Altmer. After all, and I quote, "Higher sustain = higher DPS because you don't need to use sustain glyphs. Their model doesn't capture that." So Redguard should remain the king of stamina DPS, right? A Redguard with an Infused Berserker backbar has more Weapon Damage than an Orc with an Infused Absorb Stamina backbar, right?
Stamina is much easier to sustain than magicka. You're comparing apples to oranges.
LOL!
What a bunch of hogwash.
Is that why my live magicka DPS are all Dunmer, who have no sustain passives, and my live stamina DPS are all Redguard, who are all about sustain? The gap between resource regen/second and drain/second may be marginally smaller on a stam build, but stam builds are also generally dealing with resource pools that are 20-30% smaller to begin with.
Am I getting all of this mythical stamina sustain from Minor Staminasteal and Hircine's Veneer?
Will my stamina sustain continue to be "much easier" in Wrathstone when I can't run a full-strength Absorb Stamina enchant *and* a Berserker enchant anymore?
Here, wait, next time I'm out of stamina I'll just hit Stamina Symmetry for a quick boost.
Edited by LiquidPony on February 9, 2019 1:52AM11 -
Bigevilpeter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If any other race was matched with the pure damage of Orcs there would be no point to playing orcs at all, since every other races has other benefits while orcs only get pure stamina damage.
Lets see:
Bosmer: much better sustain, so if you boost their damage to be the same at perfect sustain then there would be no reason to use Orc since bosmer get sustain and damage
Redguard: Same as Bosmer
Khajit: they already have simillar damage to Orcs, but can be played as Stamina or Magicka so why would I ever pick orc if I can get a class that can do both and have simillar or better damage
Dunmer: Same as Khajit.
Nords, Imperials, Argonians: Tank Races
Altmer, Breton: Magicka Races
Every Race has a niche including orc which is pure stamina damage if you take away anything from them they become automatically outcalssed
Edited by Bigevilpeter on February 9, 2019 1:11PM6 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »If any other race was matched with the pure damage of Orcs there would be no point to playing orcs at all, since every other races has other benefits while orcs only get pure stamina damage.
Lets see:
Bosmer: much better sustain, so if you boost their damage to be the same at perfect sustain then there would be no reason to use Orc since bosmer get sustain and damage
Redguard: Same as Bosmer
Khajit: they already have simillar damage to Orcs, but can be played as Stamina or Magicka so why would I ever pick orc if I can get a class that can do both and have simillar or better damage
Dunmer: Same as Khajit.
Nords, Imperials, Argonians: Tank Races
Altmer, Breton: Magicka Races
Every Race has a niche including orc which is pure stamina damage if you take away anything from them they become automatically outcalssed
To play the devil's advocate, orcs (and khajiits) also have a hp passive which would allow them to comfortably run purple or gold sustain food with no issue allowing them to have the trifecta of damage tankiness and sustain.4 -
Bigevilpeter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »If any other race was matched with the pure damage of Orcs there would be no point to playing orcs at all, since every other races has other benefits while orcs only get pure stamina damage.
Lets see:
Bosmer: much better sustain, so if you boost their damage to be the same at perfect sustain then there would be no reason to use Orc since bosmer get sustain and damage
Redguard: Same as Bosmer
Khajit: they already have simillar damage to Orcs, but can be played as Stamina or Magicka so why would I ever pick orc if I can get a class that can do both and have simillar or better damage
Dunmer: Same as Khajit.
Nords, Imperials, Argonians: Tank Races
Altmer, Breton: Magicka Races
Every Race has a niche including orc which is pure stamina damage if you take away anything from them they become automatically outcalssed
To play the devil's advocate, orcs (and khajiits) also have a hp passive which would allow them to comfortably run purple or gold sustain food with no issue allowing them to have the trifecta of damage tankiness and sustain.
And Bosmer and Redguard can run Blue food and have more max health and stamina2 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Bigevilpeter wrote: »If any other race was matched with the pure damage of Orcs there would be no point to playing orcs at all, since every other races has other benefits while orcs only get pure stamina damage.
Lets see:
Bosmer: much better sustain, so if you boost their damage to be the same at perfect sustain then there would be no reason to use Orc since bosmer get sustain and damage
Redguard: Same as Bosmer
Khajit: they already have simillar damage to Orcs, but can be played as Stamina or Magicka so why would I ever pick orc if I can get a class that can do both and have simillar or better damage
Dunmer: Same as Khajit.
Nords, Imperials, Argonians: Tank Races
Altmer, Breton: Magicka Races
Every Race has a niche including orc which is pure stamina damage if you take away anything from them they become automatically outcalssed
To play the devil's advocate, orcs (and khajiits) also have a hp passive which would allow them to comfortably run purple or gold sustain food with no issue allowing them to have the trifecta of damage tankiness and sustain.
And Bosmer and Redguard can run Blue food and have more max health and stamina
Blue food:
4936 stam with the new cp modifiers next patch, and undaunted = 6022 (6516 with warhorn)
5395 hp with the new cp modiifers next patch, minor toughness and undaunted = 7121 hp
Gold food
3458 stam with the new cp modifiers next patch, and undaunted = 4219 (4565 with warhorn)
1829-1951 difference or about 174-186 equlivalent weapon damage
Orcs have a 258 weapon damage bonus which is affected by multipliers so the difference is made up and then some. To give reference, with trap and flawless db front bar, medium armor, minor and major toughness, your 258 weapon damage becomes 402 weapon damage, not including classes like templar or sorcerer with weapon damage boosting passives
402 > 186
3724 hp with the new cp modifiers next patch, minor toughness and undaunted = 4916 hp. With orc (1320 with the above) you get 6235
<1k difference
So bosmer and redguard get a bit more hp. Fine.
319 regen with medium armor (28%) 75 into mooncalf (14%) a potion up (20%) modifiers and vampire (10%) gives you 549 regen. (517 if you take away vampire)
Bosmer with the same multipliers with its 258 regen gives you 444 regen (418 regen without vamp)
Note both figures are independent of class, nbs and wardens will see larger numbers for regen.
If you include nb passives (10% from relentless, 15% from shadow)
Bosmer goes to 508 regen, better than redguard (482 regen without vampire)
Orc would go to 628 regen (597 without vampire)
Redguard with a 12 second rotation casting rending, hail, and poison injection saves about 650 stam per rotation, or about 108 equlivalent regen. Adrenline rush is 380 equlivalent non affectable stam regen so total regen is about 488 regen.
I will allow you to make your own inferences, but it seems like orc is the clear winner for pve. Pvp, that is another can of beans.4 -
Bigevilpeter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Bigevilpeter wrote: »If any other race was matched with the pure damage of Orcs there would be no point to playing orcs at all, since every other races has other benefits while orcs only get pure stamina damage.
Lets see:
Bosmer: much better sustain, so if you boost their damage to be the same at perfect sustain then there would be no reason to use Orc since bosmer get sustain and damage
Redguard: Same as Bosmer
Khajit: they already have simillar damage to Orcs, but can be played as Stamina or Magicka so why would I ever pick orc if I can get a class that can do both and have simillar or better damage
Dunmer: Same as Khajit.
Nords, Imperials, Argonians: Tank Races
Altmer, Breton: Magicka Races
Every Race has a niche including orc which is pure stamina damage if you take away anything from them they become automatically outcalssed
To play the devil's advocate, orcs (and khajiits) also have a hp passive which would allow them to comfortably run purple or gold sustain food with no issue allowing them to have the trifecta of damage tankiness and sustain.
And Bosmer and Redguard can run Blue food and have more max health and stamina
Blue food:
4936 stam with the new cp modifiers next patch, and undaunted = 6022 (6516 with warhorn)
5395 hp with the new cp modiifers next patch, minor toughness and undaunted = 7121 hp
Gold food
3458 stam with the new cp modifiers next patch, and undaunted = 4219 (4565 with warhorn)
1829-1951 difference or about 174-186 equlivalent weapon damage
Orcs have a 258 weapon damage bonus which is affected by multipliers so the difference is made up and then some. To give reference, with trap and flawless db front bar, medium armor, minor and major toughness, your 258 weapon damage becomes 402 weapon damage, not including classes like templar or sorcerer with weapon damage boosting passives
402 > 186
3724 hp with the new cp modifiers next patch, minor toughness and undaunted = 4916 hp. With orc (1320 with the above) you get 6235
<1k difference
So bosmer and redguard get a bit more hp. Fine.
319 regen with medium armor (28%) 75 into mooncalf (14%) a potion up (20%) modifiers and vampire (10%) gives you 549 regen. (517 if you take away vampire)
Bosmer with the same multipliers with its 258 regen gives you 444 regen (418 regen without vamp)
Note both figures are independent of class, nbs and wardens will see larger numbers for regen.
If you include nb passives (10% from relentless, 15% from shadow)
Bosmer goes to 508 regen, better than redguard (482 regen without vampire)
Orc would go to 628 regen (597 without vampire)
Redguard with a 12 second rotation casting rending, hail, and poison injection saves about 650 stam per rotation, or about 108 equlivalent regen. Adrenline rush is 380 equlivalent non affectable stam regen so total regen is about 488 regen.
I will allow you to make your own inferences, but it seems like orc is the clear winner for pve. Pvp, that is another can of beans.
well yeah orc are probably better in PvE since you can do with medium regen, in PvP however sustain is king and so Wood elf and redguard will be better and hence the niche for every race1 -
prototypefb✭✭✭✭i agree with all new orc passives but 1k HP on top of all that stam dmg+speed is just too much2 -
IronWooshu✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »If any other race was matched with the pure damage of Orcs there would be no point to playing orcs at all, since every other races has other benefits while orcs only get pure stamina damage.
Lets see:
Bosmer: much better sustain, so if you boost their damage to be the same at perfect sustain then there would be no reason to use Orc since bosmer get sustain and damage
Redguard: Same as Bosmer
Khajit: they already have simillar damage to Orcs, but can be played as Stamina or Magicka so why would I ever pick orc if I can get a class that can do both and have simillar or better damage
Dunmer: Same as Khajit.
Nords, Imperials, Argonians: Tank Races
Altmer, Breton: Magicka Races
Every Race has a niche including orc which is pure stamina damage if you take away anything from them they become automatically outcalssed
This is pure bias. You completely left out PVP, Orcs and Nords are kings of PVP even if you take away Orcs damage. Right now Orcs are best PVE and PVP and you are sitting here typing this crap?
Remove their stamina down to 500, their health to 2000 and let them compete for BiS PVP with Imperial and Nord and let Bosmer and Redguard compete for BiS PVE.
You shouldn't have a race that is BiS in everything and that is Orc right now.Edited by IronWooshu on February 9, 2019 7:27PM3 -
miteba✭✭✭✭Looking at the bigger picture (which is not the min-maxers optimal view) it seems that the racial balance is being perfected now more than ever, so thats a very good indicator!
It is obvious that each race will have his nice cozy place at some role, but that what matters in the 2ºplace... If not, they would be just cosmetics.
About Alcast (or any other gamer/twitcher) having, or not, 10 chars of the same race, can be obviously problematic because they will tend to, even if unconsciently, defend their "main" race, in their reviews... just because ZOS will give "only" 3 racial tokens.
<--- not saying that this has happened with Alcast (which i fully respect) but is something that people have to mind when reading/listening opinion makers!Edited by miteba on February 9, 2019 7:50PM2 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭The thing is PVE players are going to pick whoever has the best dps regardless. Doesn’t matter if it’s a 1 percent difference.
Same goes for skills, sets, and weapons.0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »
Khajit: they already have simillar damage to Orcs, but can be played as Stamina or Magicka so why would I ever pick orc if I can get a class that can do both and have simillar or better damage
I fear it's a stretch the scale of Eiffel tower. For one, orcs hit harder as stamina (see parses posted above). For another, the advantage of being universal, from game mechanics' point of view, is an illusion. Very few people flip same character between specs and roles - at least often enough for it to be considered khajiit's selling point. They make alts. And everyone knows what will happen: they will make orc stamina DD and altmer/breton magicka DD, separately, because nobody cares if race is universal if they'll not be using half of those passives. If you're choosing stamina, of course you will pick orc: hits harder (again, see parses), and has ton of useful passives - speed, heal, what have you. Having symmetrical passives isn't an advantage from that point of view because half of those passives will be dormant in any given role (you can argue for khajiit tanks, but again, people make alts, they will simply go and make a nord or argonian).
That's the issue with jack of all trades in ESO. You only do one trade at a time.4 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »
That's the issue with jack of all trades in ESO. You only do one trade at a time.
Same almost applies to everything in real life as well. Most people would have the service of a different professional of every trade they need, rather than one handyman.Edited by susmitds on February 9, 2019 8:47PM2 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »Bigevilpeter wrote: »
Khajit: they already have simillar damage to Orcs, but can be played as Stamina or Magicka so why would I ever pick orc if I can get a class that can do both and have simillar or better damage
I fear it's a stretch the scale of Eiffel tower. For one, orcs hit harder as stamina (see parses posted above). For another, the advantage of being universal, from game mechanics' point of view, is an illusion. Very few people flip same character between specs and roles - at least often enough for it to be considered khajiit's selling point. They make alts. And everyone knows what will happen: they will make orc stamina DD and altmer/breton magicka DD, separately, because nobody cares if race is universal if they'll not be using half of those passives. If you're choosing stamina, of course you will pick orc: hits harder (again, see parses), and has ton of useful passives - speed, heal, what have you. Having symmetrical passives isn't an advantage from that point of view because half of those passives will be dormant in any given role (you can argue for khajiit tanks, but again, people make alts, they will simply go and make a nord or argonian).
That's the issue with jack of all trades in ESO. You only do one trade at a time.
Seems to me that this is largely class and build-dependent, anyway.
My own parses on 4.3.2 have not demonstrated that Orc outclasses all other races across the board on stam DPS specs.
On a NB, maybe they do. Not really sure. My Khajiit parses are very similar. On stamden my best parses have been Khajiit. On a stamsorc I see by far the best results with Redguard followed by Bosmer because I simply can't sustain as an Orc/Khajiit in a solo parse, even with Lavafoot.
Honestly just haven't seen a large enough sample of parses yet to say anything definitive. The big parse post used unrealistic stam setups, IMO (alchemical poisons, Kra'gh + sharp weapon, unoptimized CP, Infused Absorb Stamina backbar on all races for solo tests, regen jewelry glyphs, etc.) I certainly appreciate the Herculean effort of putting that all together but it's a starting point for the conversation, not the final word.
Who knows. I hit close to 53k on a solo stamden parse with a Khajiit using Relequen + Velidreth + ... Hunt Leader (which provides ~190 stam per second in a parse), and no other sources of stam sustain. Anyway, just seems to me that the meta is far from settled at this point. Orcs look strong but so do Khajiit, and Redguard/Bosmer will almost certainly be more realistic for classes that have issues with sustain.4 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Orc looks at ArgonianNumber are cute, but don't forget that Orc are extremely ugly.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Looking at the bigger picture (which is not the min-maxers optimal view) it seems that the racial balance is being perfected now more than ever, so thats a very good indicator!
It is obvious that each race will have his nice cozy place at some role, but that what matters in the 2ºplace... If not, they would be just cosmetics.
About Alcast (or any other gamer/twitcher) having, or not, 10 chars of the same race, can be obviously problematic because they will tend to, even if unconsciently, defend their "main" race, in their reviews... just because ZOS will give "only" 3 racial tokens.
<--- not saying that this has happened with Alcast (which i fully respect) but is something that people have to mind when reading/listening opinion makers!
Please tell me cozy role for imperial (3rd choice for tanking) and bosmer (simply weaker in anything than anybody, even weaker then imperial imo). Cozy role for altmer and dunmer who will be on par with breton only in case of top healers in group and will be forced to use heavy attacks in any hard for sustain situation.1 -
CurvedSwords123✭✭✭Orcs just outclass Redguards now, especially with upcoming stat scaling. Not advocating for an orc nerf, but there definately needs to be parity buffs for other races. I agree with Alcast.1 -
Kronuxx✭✭✭✭I do have to say that Orc racials are a little over the top. I do think that Nord and Imperial should have some benefit towards dps. Perhaps increase Nord's stamina pool to 2K like Orc's at the very least (I mean they do both have 6%, so why should Nord have less). They should not have to be pigeonholed into tanking. In addition, because of the previous changes to how block costs were adjusted during ZOS' insane nerf block frenzy (% reduction calculations are now made after the final flat value, as opposed to before where it went toward the initial block cost value before it is reduced from flat value reductions), a 5% reduction is minimal.
No, I'm not out for nerfing Orcs. I just want to give the other races their deserving glory. And trust me, this is coming from the guy who mains an Orc Stam DK, and as well coming from the same guy who helped test and implement the previous "4% melee damage" passive to apply to more skills than previously implemented during the PTS cycle when Orc racials were fist changed. See here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/203303/orc-passives/p31 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CurvedSwords123 wrote: »Orcs just outclass Redguards now, especially with upcoming stat scaling. Not advocating for an orc nerf, but there definately needs to be parity buffs for other races. I agree with Alcast.
If redguard was still the clear stamina race I think a lot less people would be complaining.Edited by Vapirko on February 10, 2019 6:36AM1 -
Bigevilpeter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CurvedSwords123 wrote: »Orcs just outclass Redguards now, especially with upcoming stat scaling. Not advocating for an orc nerf, but there definately needs to be parity buffs for other races. I agree with Alcast.
If redguard was still the clear stamina race I think a lot less people would be complaining.
Redguard has stayed top PvE dps for like 2 years and no one complained, no that things are more balanced and orc are slightly on top everyone is holding pitchforks0 -
Kalante✭✭✭✭✭
✭of course there is nothing wrong with orcs, just a slight dps increase in pve and a metric **** ton of burst potential in pvp. There is absolutely nothing wrong here. It's not as if they are trying to please a certain pvp streamer or something.2 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@susmitds , true that. ^^ Would probably prefer to have a specialized neurosurgeon when it comes to picking specialist vs. a village physician who can also double down as a vet. ^^
@LiquidPony , yes, I do realize that sample size is so small there's no talk about any statistical confidence (and many classes are outside the scope too). There's probably no telling with surety. So I'm just replying above in narrow sense - for one, not a given that khajiits hit harder; for another, even if they're equal by chance, khajiit's secondary passives are magicka related (which would be useless on most stamina builds - maybe in PvP, or for DK with a lot of magicka utility), while orc receives speed, sprint cost and healing. That's to address why one would choose orc over khajiit - if in given role and class, magicka sustain isn't relevant, then why not choose speed and survivability instead.0 -
Bigevilpeter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@susmitds , true that. ^^ Would probably prefer to have a specialized neurosurgeon when it comes to picking specialist vs. a village physician who can also double down as a vet. ^^
@LiquidPony , yes, I do realize that sample size is so small there's no talk about any statistical confidence (and many classes are outside the scope too). There's probably no telling with surety. So I'm just replying above in narrow sense - for one, not a given that khajiits hit harder; for another, even if they're equal by chance, khajiit's secondary passives are magicka related (which would be useless on most stamina builds - maybe in PvP, or for DK with a lot of magicka utility), while orc receives speed, sprint cost and healing. That's to address why one would choose orc over khajiit - if in given role and class, magicka sustain isn't relevant, then why not choose speed and survivability instead.
Just saying personally when Elsweyr comes out I'm making a Khajit Necromancer so I can try both stamina and magicka and play whatever is better according to the patch without having to grind 2 characters and all the tedious crap that comes with it, I'm not making and orc to get 500 more dps3 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Bigevilpeter , and? Anecdotal evidence isn't a measure of anything. I'm pretty sure that endgame players will separately grind (or race-change) an orc for their stamina characters (even if it happens that orc is equal to khajiit - speed and heal still will trump magicka regen in that role) and breton/altmer for magicka (again, given same conditions). For casual players (I consider myself mostly casual too, make no mistake) not having to grind an extra character may be a selling point of a race that makes it worth choosing, but then for casual players 3k of damage difference is nothing because they're not hitting the highest anyway. So yes, if you're at the point where you choose race for max performance, you're also at the point where you will grind the orc for extra 500 dps. ^^2 -
Bigevilpeter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@Bigevilpeter , and? Anecdotal evidence isn't a measure of anything. I'm pretty sure that endgame players will separately grind (or race-change) an orc for their stamina characters (even if it happens that orc is equal to khajiit - speed and heal still will trump magicka regen in that role) and breton/altmer for magicka (again, given same conditions). For casual players (I consider myself mostly casual too, make no mistake) not having to grind an extra character may be a selling point of a race that makes it worth choosing, but then for casual players 3k of damage difference is nothing because they're not hitting the highest anyway. So yes, if you're at the point where you choose race for max performance, you're also at the point where you will grind the orc for extra 500 dps. ^^
While I'm not exactly elite player even though I beat all DLC dungeons and most vet trials I do care about my dps and I wouldnt make a high elf stam DD, but when the range is too small there are othere benifits that add weight to my racial selections. I dont think Im that different from most players otherwise there wouldnt have been orcs, wood elves, khajits, nords, imperials as stamDD before this patch when redgaurd were meta. The people who really care so much about the extra 500 dps are like 10% of the player base
If orcs were the same as stam dd as khajit and dark elf then there is literally no reason to pick orcs unless you really want toEdited by Bigevilpeter on February 10, 2019 12:38PM2 -
amir412✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »If any other race was matched with the pure damage of Orcs there would be no point to playing orcs at all, since every other races has other benefits while orcs only get pure stamina damage.
Lets see:
Bosmer: much better sustain, so if you boost their damage to be the same at perfect sustain then there would be no reason to use Orc since bosmer get sustain and damage
Redguard: Same as Bosmer
Khajit: they already have simillar damage to Orcs, but can be played as Stamina or Magicka so why would I ever pick orc if I can get a class that can do both and have simillar or better damage
Dunmer: Same as Khajit.
Nords, Imperials, Argonians: Tank Races
Altmer, Breton: Magicka Races
Every Race has a niche including orc which is pure stamina damage if you take away anything from them they become automatically outcalssedBigevilpeter wrote: »If any other race was matched with the pure damage of Orcs there would be no point to playing orcs at all, since every other races has other benefits while orcs only get pure stamina damage.
Lets see:
Bosmer: much better sustain, so if you boost their damage to be the same at perfect sustain then there would be no reason to use Orc since bosmer get sustain and damage
Redguard: Same as Bosmer
Khajit: they already have simillar damage to Orcs, but can be played as Stamina or Magicka so why would I ever pick orc if I can get a class that can do both and have simillar or better damage
Dunmer: Same as Khajit.
Nords, Imperials, Argonians: Tank Races
Altmer, Breton: Magicka Races
Every Race has a niche including orc which is pure stamina damage if you take away anything from them they become automatically outcalssed
The passives Orcs got isnt only absurd alone, but scaling with modifiers, leaving behind dust to all other stamina races.4 -
CurvedSwords123✭✭✭CurvedSwords123 wrote: »Orcs just outclass Redguards now, especially with upcoming stat scaling. Not advocating for an orc nerf, but there definately needs to be parity buffs for other races. I agree with Alcast.
If redguard was still the clear stamina race I think a lot less people would be complaining.
Maybe, maybe not. Redguards were the clear stamrace for pve in the past, that was bad. Making orc better than everything in PvE and PvP (with the added benefit of survivability and not being restricted to WEP skills) is not the solution though. Again, not asking for an orc nerf, I'm glad orcs are happy with their goodies; ZoS just needs to distribute more goodies to other races now. I'm glad prominent ESO analysts feel the same way as I do. Let's not make this "Redguards and High Elves deserve to be at the bottom now cuz they were leet prior".
Races I feel need love in order of necessity:
-Redguard (WrathofInnos's ideas for Redguard are incredible)
-Imperial
-Altmer (just revert the change already)
-Dark Elf (there are no hybrid DPs in ur game, rework pls)
-Bosmer (give them some kind of stealth benefit)
Like honestly ZoS, if you need help with your decision making look to WrathofInnos's post, he has done an incredible and fair job with his suggestions to racial passives.Edited by CurvedSwords123 on February 10, 2019 1:20PM1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »@Bigevilpeter , and? Anecdotal evidence isn't a measure of anything. I'm pretty sure that endgame players will separately grind (or race-change) an orc for their stamina characters (even if it happens that orc is equal to khajiit - speed and heal still will trump magicka regen in that role) and breton/altmer for magicka (again, given same conditions). For casual players (I consider myself mostly casual too, make no mistake) not having to grind an extra character may be a selling point of a race that makes it worth choosing, but then for casual players 3k of damage difference is nothing because they're not hitting the highest anyway. So yes, if you're at the point where you choose race for max performance, you're also at the point where you will grind the orc for extra 500 dps. ^^
While I'm not exactly elite player even though I beat all DLC dungeons and most vet trials I do care about my dps and I wouldnt make a high elf stam DD, but when the range is too small there are othere benifits that add weight to my racial selections. I dont think Im that different from most players otherwise there wouldnt have been orcs, wood elves, khajits, nords, imperials as stamDD before this patch when redgaurd were meta. The people who really care so much about the extra 500 dps are like 10% of the player base
If orcs were the same as stam dd as khajit and dark elf then there is literally no reason to pick orcs unless you really want to
You're right, people who care about 500 dps is very small share of the player base. People who will prefer to be able to bounce between magicka and stamina instead of making an alt would make another insignificant part. Another small part would argue that speed and health recovery is worth not having the flexibility of switching between magicka and stamina. And then, we have the vast majority of player base who, when asked "why choose orc over khajiit?", will reply - why, green skin and they have lore I like. Or they'll choose khajiit for tail and whiskers. Or they'll make a nord DD because, well, nord, enough said. You see, when you get into the area of "is 500 dps justify choosing orc over khajiit", you're already in the area where grinding new character is okay, since you're already choosing race for stats and not because you enjoy playing it.
So yes, there are plenty of orcs and wood elves around, but the conclusion you draw from it - because they don't yet have the glorious jack-of-all-trades khajiit that will let them bounce between magicka and stamina for the meager cost of 500 dps - isn't correct; there are plenty of orcs and wood elves around because people like playing orcs and wood elves and don't care about stats. "But what if I will want to switch to magicka" is hardly an argument there.1 -
miteba✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Please tell me cozy role for imperial (3rd choice for tanking) and bosmer (simply weaker in anything than anybody, even weaker then imperial imo). Cozy role for altmer and dunmer who will be on par with breton only in case of top healers in group and will be forced to use heavy attacks in any hard for sustain situation.
@MartiniDaniels It will be obviously impossible to obtain a perfect balance. There are too many races for the classic roles of DPS, Healer and Tank.
Some races will be better for PVE, others for PVP, some will be better for specific raid roles as there will be others for niche builds (i can think one nice for bosmer).
For elite players there can be only one, in any case, for the role they choose so the others will be #2 #3 #4 etc etc
Non min-maxers dont have that "curse", if the races are well balanced, they can have fun with almost any choice.
But i have the same opinion as you that bosmer and imperial are last choices compared to others so:
- Imperials already were in a bad spot
- bosmer will be for niche builds atm
But lets see the futures PTS changes because i strongly believe that these 2 will be revaluatedEdited by miteba on February 10, 2019 6:26PM1
