Browiseth wrote: »

frankly I agree with your healer. if your build can't sustain itself on its own, it's a bad build for pugs

don't follow the route of blaming your build's weaknesses on others, it's something that kills this game's community

It's complete nonsense, templar should provide shards always, even if he is dps hybrid, shards are good at dealing damage too. If templar purposefully don't use shards he is simply ignorant ass and this should be pointed out directly.

Browiseth wrote: »

frankly I agree with your healer. if your build can't sustain itself on its own, it's a bad build for pugs

don't follow the route of blaming your build's weaknesses on others, it's something that kills this game's community

I think you read wrong. Sustain is awful since morrowind for everyone. My main dps is a magsorc dunmer, so double dipped bad sustain. My choice, my sacrifice for the burst and added fire damage. I can sustain just fine with a few heavies thrown in here and there. I can also heal myself through crit, on a 60% build that's quite regular. Most people going into vet will have a self heal, and means to regain resource at the expense of damage. Hell, I can even slot ele drain myself if necessary. If dps and tank share the healer role with vigor, self heals, purge, etc then a rapid regen or bol spammer is dead weight. Healer as a requirement becomes obsolete. This type of healer forces the notion that they're unnecessary and promotes a 3x dps plus tank preference. So basically this type of player creates the problem most healers face.

If you're not adding anything, you're not needed, nor wanted. Simple. If you then also have the attitude that its everyone else who's wrong, well, good luck.

zaria wrote: »

idk wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

That's an absurd reduction @idk, but, OK.

Because you say so, any further response is pre-emptively voided because the option is open to form your own group - - and let's pretend that people aren't entering into an agreement when they use GF. The GF excuses everything beyond the point of 'join queue'.

However, this same scenario can still occur if you recruit from guild. GF is not exclusive to guild less players. Just because I had this in a PUG doesn't mean those same guys haven't run with friends or guild mates. Could be that pre forming groups have reinforced it even.

Clearly not the case. Even Tasear, who mains a healer, stated the core job of a healer is to heal. They people you are complaining about are meeting the core requirement for their role. Considering I have seen a destro/destro DK as a healer via GF it seems you are doing great getting someone who has actual group heals.

Yes, the same scenario can occur if you recruit from guild and just ask for a healer. If you choose someone and state you want shards (or orbs) then you are forming the group you want. It really is that simple.

You can say my comment was an absurd reduction but it is really so much less absurd that to expect all healers found via the GF will have shards (or orbs) for you since you are really asking for a chance to get the least skilled players in the game. That is a very well known to happen.

Healer is keep people alive then buff, interrupt ranged, do damage in that priority, mostly.
Yes this depend on group, guess most healer has checked it they are in normal or vet dungeons.
In an weak group in an easier dungeon its better to do damage, in an good group in an easy dungeon you rater buff then damage. Hard content and weak group you has to heal all the time. good group, your support is important

You seem to fail to understand you are just plain lucky to get a healer that actually heals when you use GF.

The fact you want this random healer to be a very skilled and adept healer handling interrupts. provide shards, buffs and still do damage is a personal issue with you. You need to find your own healer if that is your list of requirements. That is a simple fact

And again, you are lucky you are actually getting a healer that is actually healing. Most of the time that is a dps who has slotted heals or a very inexperienced healer. If you have a problem with this then do not use GF. Plain and simple.

BTW, I rarely use GF. Only queue with a full group or at least 3 because I do not want to deal with the low dps, and bad tanking (when I am not tanking) often found in the GF. I make my group from competent players which is why I do not create threads in the forums complaining about those groups. I suggest you try it.

Tasear wrote: »

We need better tutorial is what I am saying.

that tutorial is hard to create, precisely because orbs are locked behind high undaunted requirement. and creating the tutorial only for templars is just counter productive, other classes can heal just fine (worse, but still just fine).

but i agree, the same way there are damage dealers that dont know how to deal damage, there are healers who dont know how to heal.

The damage dealers. the amount of chaos dd's create when they fight, won't let the healer learn to heal well. and the dd's are already used to surviving on their own (#maelstrom arena), healers cant buff dd's well most of the times. they cant learn to do it, because they constantly need to deal not with attacks that are predictable, but with dd's that are running all over the place to survive.

as much as you complain that healers dont give dd's enough support, i wanted to vouch for the healer side. and complain that dd's wont let us do our job. dds should learn to not get damage, while staying in position more or less. i end up charging forward with my healer, placing heals on ground like madman before the tank taunts the first add, to symbolize that "look, this is safe, i can protect you here" because if not, they are all over the place. and i cant heal the other side of the map.

dd's need to learn to play when there is a competent healer by their side. healers need to learn to support competent dd's. both things are impossible to learn in pug. usually if you find people in pugs, you will see those who didnt learn it yet. because those who did, dont want to go with pugs.

so ye. creating a good "group dungeon tutorial" could be awesome zos. please do. and please make it approved by high level players (skillwise, i have seen some *** 810 cp players).

let the tank agro the threats, and debuff boss. let the dd's keep position while dealing damage, tell them that there is damage that can be ignored, if they have a good healer. tell healers to use their heals when needed, give resources, and buff team. create "what counts as good group _____" tutorial zos.

perhaps a mini dungeon. that wipes you if you do not do your role (other 3 members are npc for this fight). and achievement with it. so u can show people "look i know how to play a good dd/heal/tank." one room square dungeon with the most basic looking boss.

you move out of heal range? death. you dont move from the damaging abilities? death. u dont block a heavy attack? death. you dont heal your group? they die. then the boss comes to you. death. you didnt block boss'es heavy attack? death. you didnt buff your team enough? dds didnt deal enough damage, boss does some crazy mechanics. death. etc etc. and an achievement of clearing it 5 times in a row without dying. (two minutes fight each tutorial, 5 fights is 10 minutes).

edit: i mean, if this has become "lets tell a story about the s**t people i get in pug" i have many of my own. mostly because i pug all the time.

Beardimus wrote: »

I hear you as that's the role I play, all round support.

but a DD I self support in PUGs reliance on strangers is a no

Self support isn't the issue. I can do that. Most experienced players can do that. I'm just wondering how it gets to the point described in my first post.

It leads to what I describe a bit further up.

mairwen85 wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

frankly I agree with your healer. if your build can't sustain itself on its own, it's a bad build for pugs

don't follow the route of blaming your build's weaknesses on others, it's something that kills this game's community

I think you read wrong. Sustain is awful since morrowind for everyone. My main dps is a magsorc dunmer, so double dipped bad sustain. My choice, my sacrifice for the burst and added fire damage. I can sustain just fine with a few heavies thrown in here and there. I can also heal myself through crit, on a 60% build that's quite regular. Most people going into vet will have a self heal, and means to regain resource at the expense of damage. Hell, I can even slot ele drain myself if necessary. If dps and tank share the healer role with vigor, self heals, purge, etc then a rapid regen or bol spammer is dead weight. Healer as a requirement becomes obsolete. This type of healer forces the notion that they're unnecessary and promotes a 3x dps plus tank preference. So basically this type of player creates the problem most healers face.

If you're not adding anything, you're not needed, nor wanted. Simple. If you then also have the attitude that its everyone else who's wrong, well, good luck.

If this continues, people will eventually only want healers in vet trials -- and have dps preference for everything else.

When I heal, I do everything I can to make the run as efficient as possible, this includes back benching heals for damage if needed (though a lowly 20k is not much of a trade off in comparison to what group buffs can achieve). I might as well be queuing up with one of my dps alts otherwise.

Again, a spam healer is dead weight and must feel unneeded in group content... so the question remains, 'how do you get to CP 400+ and think that all a healer does is spam heals'?

Tasear wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

In ESO, a healers role is to help their group manage resources, which includes but is not limited to the health bar. Good healers know that, bad healers whine about DPS in pug groups...

Game only requires you to heal to full fill the role. It's the players decisions afterwards on standards.

@Tasear
What does that statment even mean? The game doesnt "require" you to do anything. There is no check in groupfinder to determine if I have anything on my bars that can heal myself or anyone else. The only possible "requirement" from a content standpoint boils down to whether or not you clear the content.

The more subjective component is how well (quickly, smoothly, etc) you clear the content. Good groups fly through content, bad groups struggle. Nothing compels the use of the trinity (heal, tank, DPS) in this game, but experience has taught most people that it works well. It's an unspoken agreement that those in group-finder supposedly subscribe to. Assuming you want smooth, quick clears, a healer that is giving out resources is going to make that more likely, and one that doesnt, is not going to further that goal. So yes, if all you do is watch health bars, it makes you a bad healer relative to one that helps players manage all their resources.

TLDR: If you queue as a healer and dont slot skills (orbs, shards, etc.) that help a group manage their resources, you are bad at your job.

We need better tutorial is what I am saying.

The problems is three fold.

First, OP is talking about GF and not forming a group to their standards. No reason to expect trial level healing in a 4 man pug. When I have queued solo on my healer I out DPSed the group while keeping them alive and tossing a couple orbs.

Second we decided what a healers role is, what sets they will wear, and what they will do. That continually evolves to a degree. Zos did not determine what a healer would do when running with well organized groups.

Third, if Zos did develop a healing tutorial that included all of this then Zos is defining what a healers role is. If something changes from our perspective then that is not the healers role because Zos said so.

In other words, if you want trial level healing then form your own group and Zos is not the authority on healing or any other aspect of playing this game because they do not really play the game. BTW, it is normal in MMORPGs that players determine how the game is played and learn more about the game's design than the devs themselves.

Edit: BTW, I am no against improvements in the tutorials. They generally fall short to begin with and Guilds are the best source of information, as is normal in MMORPGs.

idk wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

In ESO, a healers role is to help their group manage resources, which includes but is not limited to the health bar. Good healers know that, bad healers whine about DPS in pug groups...

Game only requires you to heal to full fill the role. It's the players decisions afterwards on standards.

@Tasear
What does that statment even mean? The game doesnt "require" you to do anything. There is no check in groupfinder to determine if I have anything on my bars that can heal myself or anyone else. The only possible "requirement" from a content standpoint boils down to whether or not you clear the content.

The more subjective component is how well (quickly, smoothly, etc) you clear the content. Good groups fly through content, bad groups struggle. Nothing compels the use of the trinity (heal, tank, DPS) in this game, but experience has taught most people that it works well. It's an unspoken agreement that those in group-finder supposedly subscribe to. Assuming you want smooth, quick clears, a healer that is giving out resources is going to make that more likely, and one that doesnt, is not going to further that goal. So yes, if all you do is watch health bars, it makes you a bad healer relative to one that helps players manage all their resources.

TLDR: If you queue as a healer and dont slot skills (orbs, shards, etc.) that help a group manage their resources, you are bad at your job.

We need better tutorial is what I am saying.

The problems is three fold.

First, OP is talking about GF and not forming a group to their standards. No reason to expect trial level healing in a 4 man pug. When I have queued solo on my healer I out DPSed the group while keeping them alive and tossing a couple orbs.

Second we decided what a healers role is, what sets they will wear, and what they will do. That continually evolves to a degree. Zos did not determine what a healer would do when running with well organized groups.

Third, if Zos did develop a healing tutorial that included all of this then Zos is defining what a healers role is. If something changes from our perspective then that is not the healers role because Zos said so.

In other words, if you want trial level healing then form your own group and Zos is not the authority on healing or any other aspect of playing this game because they do not really play the game. BTW, it is normal in MMORPGs that players determine how the game is played and learn more about the game's design than the devs themselves.

Edit: BTW, I am no against improvements in the tutorials. They generally fall short to begin with and Guilds are the best source of information, as is normal in MMORPGs.

Anyway if you don’t buff and help the group sustain you’re a bad healer, and there needs to be a tutorial that emphasis the necessity of those things

Matchimus wrote: »

In my experience as a healer I do provide resources except when it is probably most needed at big bosses as I have to focus on actually keeping DPS players alive. Alot of them seem to ignore the tanks lead and are spread out across the room and usually get agro and I got to spam breath of life. Their positioning also impacts Healing springs & combat prayer and using it on individual players is such a waste. Best parties are when it a tight knit bunch and then I can spam resources.

Agreed. If a group reduces the healer to BoL machine, something isn't right. That's when I just ensure dots are up and focus aid on tank while doing as much dps as possible. Thing about ele drain is increases my damage even if both dps are stam, and helps me sustain my meager 20k healer dps.

There is a definite issue here. Some Dps need to learn how to play with a healer, and some healers need to learn how to grow in their role. As others have said.

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Where are you all finding time to carry group dps? You have to keep alkosh up, keep infal up keep combat prayer up, toss out orbs, proc off balance, keep power of the light up, place olo build ulti asap for the next warhorn and so many other things. All this boasting about being on a healer and doing more damage than the DPS is mind boggling tbh.

Thing is, they are complaining that they are doing more damage than dd's with a simple rotation of shards, wall of elements, combat prayer, a bit of orbs, and a heavy attack. Aw wait, it answers all your requirements!!! Amazing!!! With 100% uptime!!!